Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Silenceo]

I fail to see the issue here. We are talking about a basic unarmed transport, which the absence of which would make it impossible to land troops on the surface, or move them to points inaccessible to ground vehicles.

 

I apologize if you somehow thought that you had to take a transport to move your troops effectively, I assume you took it for the same reason I suggested it, to smuggle troops behind enemy lines unseen i.e. its purpose. However I never led you to believe or implied this, a misunderstanding of the rules - however unfortunate - is not "unfair", just bad luck.

 

Indeed I fail to see, considering this feature, how you can claim it is somehow inferior to a standard armored vehicle.

 

Alright, lets go about it like this then.

 

Have any of the previous matches been granted free transports to use after they are already on the planet that they did not have as one of their chosen vehicles? Simply answer Yes or No.

[Selenial]

Alright, lets go about it like this then.

 

Have any of the previous matches been granted free transports to use after they are already on the planet that they did not have as one of their chosen vehicles? Simply answer Yes or No.

 

Yes.

 

/5char

[Canino]

*looks at Rulebook*

 

Nope, that ones pretty clear.

 

Canino already spent his 1 free "**** the rules" card by getting Starfighters, you can't really ask for more.

 

That wasn't me. I literally allowed my entire space force to be created by Beni. Then Silenceo checked it for me. I wasn't going to assemble my own space force.

 

And don't be rude, Ms. Arguetherules.

 

As I recall, you argued them in your Kaggath, and in ours, as well as pretty much all Kaggaths you've been in.

 

And no, it is extremely unfair. If Beni plans on sticking with it, than I am demanding Canderous Assault tanks, as opposed to my stealth transports. There is literally no need for stealth if I can just blitz the hell out of the garrison. And have transports provided.

[Silenceo]

Yes.

 

/5char

 

If you are referring the to EoP, that does not qualify because those forces that deployed in them were not yet on the planet. Any other instance? One that shows forces already on the planet, calling in a transport that is not on their vehicle selection, to move them to a strategically advantageous position?

 

Side Note: I can not remember, which ship was it I recommended you switch out when you had me check it? One of the star fighters?

Edited August 16, 2014 by Silenceo

[Selenial]

If you are referring the to EoP, that does not qualify because those forces that deployed in them were not yet on the planet. Any other instance? One that shows forces already on the planet, calling in a transport that is not on their vehicle selection, to move them to a strategically advantageous position?

 

I was referring to the Republic Reborn.

[Silenceo]

I was referring to the Republic Reborn.

 

Are you referring to the Thunderclap troop transports? If I recall, those were indeed in your listed selection...

[Selenial]

That wasn't me. I literally allowed my entire space force to be created by Beni. Then Silenceo checked it for me. I wasn't going to assemble my own space force.

 

And don't be rude, Ms. Arguetherules.

 

As I recall, you argued them in your Kaggath, and in ours, as well as pretty much all Kaggaths you've been in.

 

And no, it is extremely unfair. If Beni plans on sticking with it, than I am demanding Canderous Assault tanks, as opposed to my stealth transports. There is literally no need for stealth if I can just blitz the hell out of the garrison. And have transports provided.

 

I haven't argued the rules that much, just people who don't understand them.... Or get things wrong and refuse to back down.

 

I'll have you know the majority of the time (B-TY's, Your Fighters, Rayla's ground base and Poo's amulets) I've been trying to uphold rules where Beni is just smacking them down.

 

I personally don't care if you, Beni, Silenceo or uncle Owen made your space force, it broke the rules that the rest of us stuck to, it's unfair to keep asking for the same thing.

[Selenial]

Are you referring to the Thunderclap troop transports? If I recall, those were indeed in your listed selection...

 

I know my own faction.

 

I was told that troops couldn't carry mobile transports on their backs, but Transports could be used to carry them (or be used as bases) at the massive cost of ruining my stealthy troops.

[Selenial]

Ok, I'm sorry, can we please just Step back and look at this?

 

You're asking for Aurbere to be largely nerfed, or you to redesign the ground force, just because you didn't understand the rules?

 

I could maybe tolerate you changing vehicle, (though god knows why you would) but making Aurbere's troops just walk simply because you chose a transport is ridiculous.

[Beniboybling]

Side Note: It is said they are there only for deployment, aka dropping them on the planet, at their base. NOT for deploying at the enemies base or moving units around. For all intents and purposes by that point they do not exist unless the faction wants to get their troops back to their star ships. Any other ruling is inherently imbalanced, if such a thing really should go through, then we should have had a separate category to drop in our favorite transports.

Responded to in the Rulebook.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7611411#post7611411

[Silenceo]

I know my own faction.

 

I was told that troops couldn't carry mobile transports on their backs, but Transports could be used to carry them (or be used as bases) at the massive cost of ruining my stealthy troops.

 

Yes, but it was a transport you already had listed in your faction.

 

The Fist does not have Troop Transports. Granted, the Fury ships could act for such a reason but...I HIGHLY doubt they would, both due to the Sith Owners, and the limited space.

 

But what Beni proposes is to essentially grant the Fist vehicles it does not have, to completely nullify the CIC's tactical maneuverability advantage. The fact of the matter is, those ships are there only to allow the ground forces to make land fall. They are not there to ferry the troops from the base to the battle field.

 

Side Note: It is as simple as Aurbere did not choose a transport, Canino did. It is not Canino's fault he then has the maneuverability advantage. Aurbere decided to get great big amounts of firepower instead. He should not be given free transports to make up for his decision.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

Alright, lets go about it like this then.

 

Have any of the previous matches been granted free transports to use after they are already on the planet that they did not have as one of their chosen vehicles? Simply answer Yes or No.

Responded to in the Rulebook.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7611414#post7611414

[Selenial]

Yes, but it was a transport you already had listed in your faction.

 

The Fist does not have Troop Transports. Granted, the Fury ships could act for such a reason but...I HIGHLY doubt they would, both due to the Sith Owners, and the limited space.

 

But what Beni proposes is to essentially grant the Fist vehicles it does not have, to completely nullify the CIC's tactical maneuverability advantage. The fact of the matter is, those ships are there only to allow the ground forces to make land fall. They are not there to ferry the troops from the base to the battle field.

 

I wasn't talking about Thunderclaps.

 

*facedesk*

[Beniboybling]

Yes, but it was a transport you already had listed in your faction.

 

The Fist does not have Troop Transports. Granted, the Fury ships could act for such a reason but...I HIGHLY doubt they would, both due to the Sith Owners, and the limited space.

 

But what Beni proposes is to essentially grant the Fist vehicles it does not have, to completely nullify the CIC's tactical maneuverability advantage. The fact of the matter is, those ships are there only to allow the ground forces to make land fall. They are not there to ferry the troops from the base to the battle field.

 

Side Note: It is as simple as Aurbere did not choose a transport, Canino did. It is not Canino's fault he then has the maneuverability advantage. Aurbere decided to get great big amounts of firepower instead. He should not be given free transports to make up for his decision.

I don't think your taking into account anti-air here, if this were the case, the environment would always be circumvented, both in Star Wars and in real world conflicts.

 

But its never been that easy, because of anti-air. You don't even need purpose built equipment (though the Black Sun could certainly acquire it), any vehicle capable of pointing its guns skyward and firing at a reasonable pace would do. Like say... AT-APs? Yeah. Set them up on some mesas as well as at defended outposts across the desert and the capabilities of transports suddenly become extremely limited. Some ground will have to be covered on foot. But the Fist aren't exactly going to march troops through their own territory in such conditions. They too, will set up various outposts and safe zones for the secure ferrying of troops and resources. That is all that is being argued here.

 

This is how war works, indeed I'd suggest taking our heads out of the sand (pun not intended ) and actually think logically about this, as real tacticians would have had to do. Indeed you won't see Xizor throwing up his hands at the sight of a Imperial shuttle saying "We surrender!" Will you? Unless you want me to put that in the scenario?

 

EDIT: But in this respect, Canino has a very large advantage. For while he cannot shuttle troops to the enemies front door via air, he can very well do so via ground, bypassing their defences completely. So by all means swap them out for assault tanks (I'm joking, you can't ) but you'd be shooting yourself in the foot.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Canino]

So if we are done ripping my forces apart, can we move on? I'd prefer to have some fun today.

 

So, since transports are being given, do we have numbers? Do I get anything else, in conjuncture with the transports I already have?

[Beniboybling]

So if we are done ripping my forces apart, can we move on? I'd prefer to have some fun today.

 

So, since transports are being given, do we have numbers? Do I get anything else, in conjuncture with the transports I already have?

No changes have been made to your force.

 

You would have as many as is needed to move your entire force.

 

And other than what your suppliers can provide, nope.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Silenceo]

No changes have been made to your force.

 

You would have as many as is needed to move your entire force.

 

And other than what your suppliers can provide, nope.

 

<.<

>.>

>.<

 

Canino should get some free swoop bikes. For uh, recreational, purposes. Yeah, thats it...

 

Side Note: The free transports are 100% useless for the CIC since all of their infantry currently doesn't even fully fill up the transports he has chosen. How much of the Fist can be transported at any given time?

Edited August 17, 2014 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

<.<

>.>

>.<

 

Canino should get some free swoop bikes. For uh, recreational, purposes. Yeah, thats it...

 

Side Note: The free transports are 100% useless for the CIC since all of their infantry currently doesn't even fully fill up the transports he has chosen. How much of the Fist can be transported at any given time?

Well speeders come under basic supplies, and the Confederacy's go to speeder would be a swoop bike...

 

...So yeah, they actually have them.

 

I think what your trying to say that the CIC possesses a means to circumvent transport weaknesses entirely.

 

And they have enough transports to field their entire force, so all of them if they wanted to.

[Canino]

No changes have been made to your force.

 

You would have as many as is needed to move your entire force.

 

And other than what your suppliers can provide, nope.

 

Wait I'm confused. So I have my stealth transports, and swoop bikes? But no other transports?

 

And Aurbere has aerial transports? Anything else I should be aware of? Speeders? Random other machinery he didn't select in faction creation? Random troops not selected in faction creation? I just want to know how my force is being nerfed again, that's all.

 

And I was out doing errands, so this post is pretty late.

[Beniboybling]

Wait I'm confused. So I have my stealth transports, and swoop bikes? But no other transports?

 

And Aurbere has aerial transports? Anything else I should be aware of? Speeders? Random other machinery he didn't select in faction creation? Random troops not selected in faction creation? I just want to know how my force is being nerfed again, that's all.

 

And I was out doing errands, so this post is pretty late.

I understand your upset about this, but lets try and be civil. No nerf is simply taking place here, just a unawareness of the rules. I understand that I can expect everyone to read them in full, but then this was never implied in the first place, and that's the best I can do. However I don't think its fair to blame me for your mistakes. Edited August 17, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Canino]

I understand your upset about this, but lets try and be civil. No nerf is simply taking place here, just a unawareness of the rules. I understand that I can expect everyone to read them in full, but then this was never implied in the first place, and that's the best I can do. However I don't think its fair to blame me for your mistakes.

 

I'm sorry. It's just very frustrating for my entire forced to be picked to pieces by other debaters from the beginning, and told that I've already broken multiple other rules. And not by you.

 

But moving on, am I right in my assumptions? I have my transports and swoops? And he has aerial transports and likely speeders?

Edited August 17, 2014 by Canino

[Canino]

Alright, I decided I would use some rules to my advantage now, as it seems we have been enemies throughout this Kaggath.

 

Colicoid Defection

 

#105 Anything deemed secret/confidential within the Star Wars universe will remain so in the Kaggath, unless there are explicitly exceptional circumstances that demonstrate otherwise. Such secrets can be internal as well, such as the secrets of one’s allies or forces.

 

No one except the leadership of the CIC would know Xizor is a crimelord. It was a secret he kept very well hidden. Obviously the next argument is that he is backed by Black Sun, so its obvious. But is it? It simply means that he has allied himself with criminals. It does not mean that he is a criminal. In fact, Dooku was known to work with criminals, as was Vader, Maul, and Savage. Hell, Ventress has as well.

 

No, they would believe he is the owner of his legitimate business.

 

If the truth is to surface, that only makes him a million times more powerful, as his reputation will precede him.

 

#20 At the beginning of the Kaggath all parties are loyal to their superiors, dedicated to supporting their faction and winning the battle, for whatever reason. This includes planetary populations i.e. civilians and only civilians, and their respective governments.

 

So the Colicoids begin extremely loyal to the CIC. And this quote shows that they don't are who leads them. In fact, it makes them sound like the same type of people Xizor rules.

 

“Though highly intelligent, Colicoids were emotionless and cannibalistic in nature that was particularly the case when food was scarce. Their ruthless cunning served them well on the battlefield as it did on the negotiating table. It was known that long ago that they transferred these ruthless characteristics to their commerce activities. As a result, they were known to be brutally efficient in their business practices. They were noted for being vicious and calculating creatures that were driven by greed whilst showing little regard for others.”

 

Sounds like a criminal. Specifically, Xizor, who has been noted as extremely patient, cunning, and cold blooded.

 

And let’s not forget rich.

 

 

 

Next, we move onto underworld tech.

 

Underworld Influence

 

#119 Each faction will be prequipped by any basic weapons and supplies their supplier and/or organisation can provide e.g. small arms, armor, fighters/transports, elite tech etc. and altogether anything that would be logical to have already armed. What is allowed under this ruling however will ultimately be up to the discretion of the Arbiter.

“It was involved in every known type of illegal activity; its information networks surpassed even the accuracy and scope of Imperial Intelligence.”

“Black market technology was often employed by pirates and other criminal organizations such as the Zann Consortium.”

 

• Bulldog RLR

• Buzz droid technology (StarViper-class attack platform)

• Carbonite missile technology (Missile Attack Launcher)

• Cloaking technology (F9-TZ Transport, Merciless, Vengeance-class frigate)

• Core Overload works (MZ-8 Mobile Pulse Cannon, Aggressor-class Star Destroyer, Vengeance-class frigate)

• Disruptor technology (Mercenaries)

• Full missile salvo technology (Interceptor IV frigate)

• Illicit Electronics products (Flesh camouflage, SB-20 security breach droid)

• Laser point-defense technology (Crusader-class corvette)

• Proximity mine technology (Mercenaries)

• SD-6 Hulk infantry droid

• Sensor jamming technology (GAT-12 Skipray Blastboat)

• Shields leeching works (Keldabe-class battleship)

 

So, I'll be taking these things. And those are specifically what the Zann Consortium had. I'm sure Black Sun had access to jammers, weaponry, and even more cloaking devices.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2014 by Canino

[Beniboybling]

But moving on, am I right in my assumptions? I have my transports and swoops? And he has aerial transports and likely speeders?

You have aerial transports, everyone does. They also all have speeders. There may also be some cases where folks will have vehicle transports as well but this is not one of them.

[Aurbere]

OK, I finished my busy stuff for the weekend so I'm going to try to get caught up on what's been going on.

[Aurbere]

I can't believe transportation became such a hot topic. Seriously, what was the deal with that?