Can you really do well in a stock ship?

[British_Wookiee]

As a newcomer to GSF (been away for about 8 months) I found it quite daunting on my first couple of sorties. I got my butt handed to me repeatedly. Granted, I'm used to a HOTAS setup for space/flight sims. But I just felt violated!

 

Rather than sit in Vaiken complain that it's unbalanced or just plain ragequit, I checked out a few videos on youtube and advice from Dulfy and took another shot.

 

I'm not about to try to convince you that I went from zero to hero in 2 matches (God, I wish!). But I started to fight smarter not harder. I started racking up some semi-respectable damage and my K/D ration became slightly less embarrassing!

 

This thread is absolutely spot-on and hits home at the continual problem that ends up rearing its head in nearly every mmo. The generation that wants everything for nothing; little to no effort put in = maximum rewards plskthx.

 

Thanks for posting this, as a newcomer it's refreshing to read something like this. The quote from earlier that stands out to me about skill being greater than gear, until two players become almost evenly matched - THEN it becomes more about gear. That is what it boils down to.

 

Good read - thanks guys

[Verain]

This thread could use some visibility since the recent dev post brought some posters back around.

 

Also note the similar thread for stock night. Stock night isn't a periodic event, but it is recurring:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=755666

[Paetheas]

The dev's just admitted they don't like the massive imbalance in GSF. When the dev's disagree with you, you know you have been white knighting the wrong issue.

[Ryuku-sama]

The dev's just admitted they don't like the massive imbalance in GSF. When the dev's disagree with you, you know you have been white knighting the wrong issue.

 

Oh.. Look.. Another cute little troll comming back

In fact I think you should read and understand devs' post first.

 

The reason we wanted to do this adjustment to Requisition Gain is we found while playing and sifting through the data that the ramp up time for new and moderate GSF players was taking too long and those players couldn’t match up against veterans most of the time, despite skill level. So we wanted to get players into the meaty part of the leveling curve and into a ship they really wanted to play faster. So with this goal in mind, after finishing the introduction quest players will be granted enough Fleet Requisition to purchase any ship (not the Cartel Market ones though) they’d like. In addition to aid experienced players, daily, weekly and, in-match objectives now give greater requisition rewards so players at any point in the level curve can move along it at quicker pace. For the hardcore GSF players the goal is that this change will increase the amount of players sticking to GSF and thus increase the queue pool. More matches and more bogies to take out!

 

FACT : New and moderate GSF players have too much of a ramp up time.

New players ramp up time won't change much.. But moderate player ramp up time will. Once you know how to fly, getting your ship quickly where it needs to be to be optimized is useful. Before it isn't that much. Newbies won,t see much of a change in their growth, but good pilots will. THe only thing this will bring to newbies is simple. More rewards so more incentives.

 

Verain said many times that gear didn't matter as much as skill.

And it is mostly true, gear matters more as you become more skilled until you reach a ceiling where your skill overcome gear to the point you can fight maxed ships in stock ships. For a newbie, gear doesn't matter. No amount of gear can fix lack of situationnal awareness, sub 10% accuracy and lack of understanding of the ships, components and meta themselves. You'd launch in a maxed ship and I would still crush you in any stock ship. Decent and good pilots' gear matters much more. They know how to use it well enough to be threat. They have gained the skills needed to use their gear correctly. The only proper answer is by either having their skill level and a similar gear level or by being more skilled. Then you have vet, aces like Aimbot, Verain, Stasie, Drako, Tsuku, Nemmy, Scrab. For them, gear just doesn't matter. They will crush anyone without their skills any way they want.. without sweating.

For the vets and the good pilots, this change will allow them to gear faster, and get back to their former level faster. For newbies, it won't change anything beyond a slightly better incentive to play.

 

So now dear troll, go back to hiding in your hole.

[Verain]

The dev's just admitted they don't like the massive imbalance in GSF. When the dev's disagree with you, you know you have been white knighting the wrong issue.

 

The devs said nothing of the sort. They boosted req gain by like 30ish percent, which is nice. Rest assured, this thread remains true, and you remain false.

[ALaggyGrunt]

I wandered onto the Bastion to see how the flying there was. My first match, I got set against one of that server's famous "unbeatable" premades. We were barely holding onto sat B. A and C were lost causes. One of the scary guys was flying an Imperium with directional shields. He tried to turn to face me with quads at 5km with not a lot of shields, and made himself an easy kill.

 

The charged plating bomber comes out, and there's nothing to be done about it without some kind of armor piercing gun, which the totally stock Star Guard didn't have. The Nova hadn't even been flown yet, so even rocket pods were no good.

 

There was another one on Harbinger when I'd rerolled a new character. A certain scout pilot was being very sloppy and kept wandering into my noob rapids. I got him twice, and he got his SIM/CP bomber out. I didn't get him again, because that character had nothing with armor piercing.

[Drakkolich]

I wandered onto the Bastion to see how the flying there was. My first match, I got set against one of that server's famous "unbeatable" premades. We were barely holding onto sat B. A and C were lost causes. One of the scary guys was flying an Imperium with directional shields. He tried to turn to face me with quads at 5km with not a lot of shields, and made himself an easy kill.

 

The charged plating bomber comes out, and there's nothing to be done about it without some kind of armor piercing gun, which the totally stock Star Guard didn't have. The Nova hadn't even been flown yet, so even rocket pods were no good.

 

There was another one on Harbinger when I'd rerolled a new character. A certain scout pilot was being very sloppy and kept wandering into my noob rapids. I got him twice, and he got his SIM/CP bomber out. I didn't get him again, because that character had nothing with armor piercing.

 

Love the story on the imperium, if that was me by all means tell me definitely sounds like something I would do. I have a terrible habit of just completely underestimating anyone I don't recognize. ^^

 

I have talked in this very thread and in other places already about how awful armored targets are to deal with for new players before. It's one of the biggest hurdles when starting somewhere new, you just have to get an armor pen weapon as fast as possible. One of my solutions would be to change one of the co pilot abilities to an armor pen one, kind of like bypass but for armor.

 

With the devs increasing requisition gain it will help people catch up faster in gear and if anything show even more what this thread was trying to show. That most people that think they are losing because of gear are actually losing to experience. This thread was really put up just to show anyone claiming "this game is all gear no skill at all" that they were wrong.

 

Look forward to your reply.

[ALaggyGrunt]

It was you.

 

It's hard to expect every 2-shipper to be a threat, which is part of the fun of making a new character and going straight into space.

 

I've got a different solution to the armor penetration problem:

Everything with armor penetration in its tree starts out with some armor penetration. Picking a charged plating bomber apart with 50% heavies and concs would have taken a while, but it would have been a lot better than 3 damage/shot at 0%. Turrets would also be easier for newbies to take out. Unless armor penetration is multiplicative (50% penetration would ignore half of your armor), this would make deflection armor without charged plating basically useless-not that it wasn't already with all the BLC scouts and gunships flying around.

[Drakkolich]

It was you.

 

It's hard to expect every 2-shipper to be a threat, which is part of the fun of making a new character and going straight into space.

 

I've got a different solution to the armor penetration problem:

Everything with armor penetration in its tree starts out with some armor penetration. Picking a charged plating bomber apart with 50% heavies and concs would have taken a while, but it would have been a lot better than 3 damage/shot at 0%. Turrets would also be easier for newbies to take out. Unless armor penetration is multiplicative (50% penetration would ignore half of your armor), this would make deflection armor without charged plating basically useless-not that it wasn't already with all the BLC scouts and gunships flying around.

 

Ah well gratz on the kill

If you don't mind putting it up here whats your alt on the bastion I'd love to know when I'm playing vs you so I can see how you fly.

 

That is actually a cool idea, giving all weapons that could have armor pen half up front and then the other half later in the talent. One problem I do see with this idea is that some of the armor pen talents are choices, and 50% more armor pen vs some of the other choices might not be enough to make them worth it. However that might be a good thing instead of pigeonholing everyone into having to take said armor pen talents already. We might see heavy users opt for the extra crit chance and just accept only having 50% armor pen.

 

Very cool idea.

[ThutmoseV]

When the 12x xp started for early buyers of the expansion, I rolled a new character and tried some GSF runs with stock ships. I tried T1 scout and T1 gunship. I found against less experienced opposition I held my own, especially with gunship, which is my preferred type. It is a lot harder against the top pilots.

 

For inexperienced pilots, if you have any flexibility in the times you play, I would suggest trying different times for GSF, since different times have different levels of opposition.

[GroXL]

Scoreboard / Proof of no upgrades

[Ryuku-sama]

Scoreboard / Proof of no upgrades

 

This isn't a proof you had no upgrade but it really doesn't matter cause it is obvious.. No one use In your sight..

[MiaowZedong]

To be honest looking at that scoreboard, it's not like you've proved much...it looks like the kind of game where quite a few players could have had 20+ kills in their mastered ship of choice, so 12 kills in a stock Star Guard is pretty much expected. Obviously you had 6 people on the other side who might not even know how to lock missiles and then most of your team doesn't seem very good either.

 

So yeah, farm match, stock ships can kill stuff, mastered ships are better, etc.

Edited October 11, 2014 by MiaowZedong

[Drakkolich]

To be honest looking at that scoreboard, it's not like you've proved much...it looks like the kind of game where quite a few players could have had 20+ kills in their mastered ship of choice, so 12 kills in a stock Star Guard is pretty much expected. Obviously you had 6 people on the other side who might not even know how to lock missiles and then most of your team doesn't seem very good either.

 

So yeah, farm match, stock ships can kill stuff, mastered ships are better, etc.

 

I think you missed the point of the thread but that's ok.

 

This was all just to show that a lot of players that think they are being defeated by gear, are in fact being defeated by a skilled opponent. You said it yourself the players on the other side might not even know how to lock missiles, so in fact he proved the point perfectly he handedly defeated them in a stock ship with no gear.

 

Ofcourse mastered ships are going to get you more kills and more damage, would we even bother upgrading if they didn't? The idea was just to show that you can still get "farm" games as you put even when your in a stock ship. That skill actually does matter and that it actually matters a lot. This wasn't about showing off huge numbers more as a reference to players that are saying stuff like well the only reason you beat me was because you have upgrades and I don't. While upgrades do matter once both players are closer and closer to being equal in skill, when there is a huge disparity they really don't.

[GroXL]

This isn't a proof you had no upgrade but it really doesn't matter cause it is obvious.. No one use In your sight..

 

1 Game later

[Ryuku-sama]

1 Game later

 

This is two or three games.. so unlikely to have more than one upgrade

[Drakkolich]

1 Game later

 

Wow rough second game

 

4/7/9 55137 damage

Nice damage though ^^

[Gavin_Kelvar]

That is actually a cool idea, giving all weapons that could have armor pen half up front and then the other half later in the talent. One problem I do see with this idea is that some of the armor pen talents are choices, and 50% more armor pen vs some of the other choices might not be enough to make them worth it. However that might be a good thing instead of pigeonholing everyone into having to take said armor pen talents already. We might see heavy users opt for the extra crit chance and just accept only having 50% armor pen.

 

Very cool idea.

 

I think at least with HLC it might give strikers more ability to emphasize their multirole capability since they'd always be able to use their HLC against an armored target and choose whether they wanted them as devoted bomber-busters or take an option that gives HLC greater versatility.

[GroXL]

The conditions

[Drakkolich]

Been hearing more people on the forums talk about this game being only gear and no skill again, so this time I decided to make videos of my playing the stock ships.

 

They also double as tutorial videos as I explain a ton of stuff in them. I'm going to edit them into the first post on this page, so go check them out. ^^

[Kissakias]

I would like to highlight 2 things which lots of people here forgetting:

1) Most of players discusing here are veterans. Learning to play was much more easier in early times of GSF. Most of players were on same level - same stock ships, no upgrades and much less knowledge about game. Now are newbies facing aces with fully upgraded ship. Its hard to learn something when you are down after 2 shots.

2) Some people are just better at GSF than others. Well, you are top aces, you can do well even in unarmed escape pod. But GSF is game (and its not realistic simulator game) and so it is inteded for wider range of players, not only top pilots. Player base will be hardly ever larger if game stay as it is now.

 

3. And some discover some cheats that they use a lot (unlockable from missiles, ultra dmg, infinity fast speed)

[Verain]

3. And some discover some cheats that they use a lot (unlockable from missiles, ultra dmg, infinity fast speed)

 

I... actually don't know if you are joking.

 

I'll assume you are not.

 

 

First, the post you replied too has several logical errors. Many veterans did not start until later, and of those that played, all have fought in dozens to hundreds of games that they cannot win, against ludicrous odds. Time spent playing is the determiner here, not "getting in early". If you put your time in, you'll get good. If you don't, you won't. Encouraging players to play is the big deal.

 

Second, the fact that the game is so skilled based is a breath of fresh air in this industry. Claiming that it is "meant for a broader audience" is probably not even true- if it was really meant for the general MMO audience, do you think it would have three space combat AND resource management? I think it's meant for the players who want to be good at a star fighter sim, like star wars, and are playing SWTOR at all. It's a great draw.

 

WoW launched a Pet Battle system a couple years ago, a Pokemon-lite. It's pretty damned great and fun, and it was meant for everyone.

 

GSF is a minigame, but it isn't Pet Battles.

 

 

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY- I can assure you ,you've never seen a GSF hacker. None of the aces hack, at all. Not only would that get them ostracized, as everyone here hates cheaters, they would risk their accounts being banned entirely.

 

I will also assure you that:

 

> There is no "unlockable from missiles" hack. Missiles are a bit funny because the server and client have to agree for a lock, and that is what you are seeing. No one is hacking your missile lock. Missile locks are determined by the locker's machine and the server, the lockee doesn't even get a vote in what happens.

> There is no "ultra dmg" hack. Damage is determined server side. This is not a thing that can happen.

> There is no "fast speed" hack, but characters CAN seem to jump around unpredictably if their connection is poor. Characters doing this are actually easier to lock with missiles in many cases, and in all cases cannot be offensive while this is going on.

 

 

 

So no, GSF hacks are essentially nonexistent. You have never seen a GSF hacker. And aces definitely do not hack.

 

This thread is started by Drako, who streams quite regularly. No hacks here bro.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Verain

[SWCNT]

As a newcomer to GSF (been away for about 8 months) I found it quite daunting on my first couple of sorties. I got my butt handed to me repeatedly. Granted, I'm used to a HOTAS setup for space/flight sims. But I just felt violated!

 

Rather than sit in Vaiken complain that it's unbalanced or just plain ragequit, I checked out a few videos on youtube and advice from Dulfy and took another shot.

 

I'm not about to try to convince you that I went from zero to hero in 2 matches (God, I wish!). But I started to fight smarter not harder. I started racking up some semi-respectable damage and my K/D ration became slightly less embarrassing!

 

This thread is absolutely spot-on and hits home at the continual problem that ends up rearing its head in nearly every mmo. The generation that wants everything for nothing; little to no effort put in = maximum rewards plskthx.

 

Thanks for posting this, as a newcomer it's refreshing to read something like this. The quote from earlier that stands out to me about skill being greater than gear, until two players become almost evenly matched - THEN it becomes more about gear. That is what it boils down to.

 

Good read - thanks guys

 

You it the nail on the head man. That's exactly what I did when I started, and yeah it sucked but it's all part of the learning curve. More people need to have your attitude.