Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Republic Reborn vs Wroshyr Alliance

[Aurbere]

Neither do I, which is why Tune's posts confused me a little...

 

I think he may have overestimated Wedge's influence.

 

I gotta congratulate you, though, your use of Meetra's Force Bonds was brilliant.

[Selenial]

I gotta congratulate you, though, your use of Meetra's Force Bonds was brilliant.

 

[Aurbere]

Apologies in advance folks but it seems I've made another error here, I realise that the Hapan Battle Dragon should really be classed as a heavy cruiser instead of its current classification of a light cruiser, as while it is the size of a light cruiser its firepower far surpasses that of any comparable model. If anyone objects to this speak now.

 

P.S. So that will make for a total of 7 Hapans, also because their was a bit of an impromptu alteration to Tune's naval figures, the MC40a will be changed back to the standard figure of 10.

 

So long as you don't nerf my faction, make any change you want.

[StarSquirrel]

You uhh... You need to check your sources Star, stop using Wookieepedia... It sucks.

 

"Nearly too large for frigate classification, the 315 meter long Hammerhead-Class cruiser is more than a match for Capital Ships of it's time. [...] Success comes at a cost however, [Goes on to talk about the Data stuff I already mentioned]"

 

And 7 turbolasers? Again, I'd suggest No Wookieepedia if that's where you're getting it from. 4 Light Laser batteries, 2 Medium batteries, and 2 point defense... then a tractor beam.

 

So yeh, if we're using the breakdown on the Gladiator Vessel that Wookieepedia uses from the sourcebook, that's 20 individual light turbolasers, 10 Medium Turbolasers, 10 Point Defense Laser Canons, and 2 Tractor Beams... Which is actually a slight rework to the armament of the Gladiator Vessel itself, replacing Concussion Missiles with more turbolasers.

 

As for the shielding, that's because of the actual Strength of the Shielding that the Galaxy had at that point every ship could get torn apart by missiles. Using the Universal Tech rule, this flaw is greatly evened out.

And those stats (assuming those are actually usable) means the Hammerhead is still vastly outgunned, but it doesn't detract as horribly from your faction's fleet.

 

As for shielding/Tech rule I have to disagree vehemently. Missiles were just as prevalent if not MORE prevalent in the OR era. A weakness against missiles is a design flaw not a tech imbalance. The Concussion Missiles of the NJO era were equal to missiles of the OR era, so proton torpedoes are still better than OR missiles and we know that the Hammerhead had issues defending against missiles.

 

Sorry, but that argument is an excuse for a design flaw. I refuse to accept that.

 

Remember I'm not being biased here, I have no stake in this at all so I'm calling as I see it.

[StarSquirrel]

I covered this in my leadership analysis, due to Meetra's ability to form force bonds with literally anyone, the likelihood of someone she's served with for a while defecting is next to none. If anyone defects it will be the WA.

 

No, unless she directly takes over his mind his friendships will overpower her hastily established bond. If she attacks his friends it'll backfire on her severely and he'll break that bond easily.

[StarSquirrel]

Apologies in advance folks but it seems I've made another error here, I realise that the Hapan Battle Dragon should really be classed as a heavy cruiser instead of its current classification of a light cruiser, as while it is the size of a light cruiser its firepower far surpasses that of any comparable model. If anyone objects to this speak now.

 

P.S. So that will make for a total of 7 Hapans, also because their was a bit of an impromptu alteration to Tune's naval figures, the MC40a will be changed back to the standard figure of 10.

 

I object, as is it is pretty well balanced now but reducing to 7 would throw Tune's entire naval force out the window even with an increase to the MC40a's

 

If the reduction was less severe I'd support it.

Edited July 28, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Selenial]

And those stats (assuming those are actually usable) means the Hammerhead is still vastly outgunned, but it doesn't detract as horribly from your faction's fleet.

 

Remember I'm not being biased here, I have no stake in this at all so I'm calling as I see it.

 

Outgunned, perhaps. But they outnumber the enemy by ridiculous proportion.

 

And it's not, actually. All the flaw is is shield power, which was an issue that got a lot easier to correct over time.

 

I also think that you're using entirely the wrong comparison. It'd likely be the 6 Endurance Class vessels against the Hapans, whilst the Hammerheads take the MC40's. Given their cross of fire they could likely penetrate the Mon Calamari shields, and as they are also outnumbering the Enemy 3:2, they'd likely win.

 

The Endurance Class, with it's superior design, superior targeting and with the Sabotage done by stealthed Vessels, would obliterate the Hapan Battle Dragons.

[Selenial]

I object, as is it is pretty well balanced now but reducing to 7 would throw Tune's entire naval force out the window even with an increase to the MC40a's

 

If the reduction was less severe I'd support it.

 

Nope.

 

Not my fault that Hapans needed to be En Masse to do damage.

 

Tune would have Hapan Battledragons that out numbered my Endurance Vessels, despite the large reduction, it hardly seems fair to give him more just because I'd likely win without them.

[Beniboybling]

I object, as is it is pretty well balanced now but reducing to 7 would throw Tune's entire naval force out the window even with an increase to the MC40a's

 

If the reduction was less severe I'd support it.

Its not a question of what impact it has on the Kaggath, but purely how one would class the Battle Dragon. To take into account external factors would be to make a biased decision I'm afraid.

 

And currently I can't see under what conditions it can be classed as a Light Cruiser.

[Selenial]

No, unless she directly takes over his mind his friendships will overpower her hastily established bond. If she attacks his friends it'll backfire on her severely and he'll break that bond easily.

 

That's... very wrong.

 

The allies and leadership have loyalties to their leaders, this is likely due to having had time to forge a relationship and connect on a more personal Level, as is evidenced by say Lomi Plo having loyalty to Muur, they would have known each other, forged a bond, shared similar tastes in world domination etc.

 

The Force Bonds were subconscious, Wedge would have no idea it was happening, all he would feel would be one intense loyalty to Meetra.

 

Let's also not forget the possibility of her Battle Meditation, and that Wedge doesn't know his friends are on the enemy's side until he starts fighting them.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Selenial

[StarSquirrel]

It'd likely be the 6 Endurance Class vessels against the Hapans, whilst the Hammerheads take the MC40's. Given their cross of fire they could likely penetrate the Mon Calamari shields, and as they are also outnumbering the Enemy 3:2, they'd likely win.

 

The Endurance Class, with it's superior design, superior targeting and with the Sabotage done by stealthed Vessels, would obliterate the Hapan Battle Dragons.

The Endurance is a small carrier. It could survive, but never eliminate a Battle Dragon. That is your bias severely creeping in. The Endurance carrier has neither the armaments nor the maneuverability to defeat a battle dragon.

 

And the Hammerhead is likely a good match for the MC40's. They won't severely overpower them and the MC40's shields are Mon Cal, so no the crossfire is not even close to enough to breach those with any effect. Remember, the Mon Cal developed their shields to combat Imperial ships that were also designed to maximize firepower in single directions. You're overhyping the Hammerhead.

[Beniboybling]

That's... very wrong.

 

The allies and leadership have loyalties to their leaders, this is likely due to having had time to forge a relationship and connect on a more personal Level, as is evidenced by say Lomi Plo having loyalty to Muur, they would have known each other, forged a bond, shared similar tastes in world domination etc.

 

The Force Bonds were subconscious, Wedge would have no idea it was happening, all he would feel would be one intense loyalty to Meetra.

 

Let's also not forget the possibility of her Battle Meditation, and that Wedge doesn't know his friends are on the enemy's side until he starts fighting them.

I think is definitely worth mentioning that all the Exile's companions were willing to die for her, and even though they were "hastily formed bonds" they were incredibly strong.

 

But I don't know what Wedge's relationships were with members of the Wroshyr Alliance.

[Selenial]

The Endurance is a small carrier. It could survive, but never eliminate a Battle Dragon. That is your bias severely creeping in. The Endurance carrier has neither the armaments nor the maneuverability to defeat a battle dragon.

 

And the Hammerhead is likely a good match for the MC40's. They won't severely overpower them and the MC40's shields are Mon Cal, so no the crossfire is not even close to enough to breach those with any effect. Remember, the Mon Cal developed their shields to combat Imperial ships that were also designed to maximize firepower in single directions. You're overhyping the Hammerhead.

 

Again, the Stealthed Vessels would cripple the Hapan Battle Dragons, and I find it cute that you're saying I'm biased, whilst posting that 6 Endurance Class Fleet Carriers and their entire Fighter squadron couldn't take out a single Battle Dragon

The Hapans had major flaws in their designs, and both of these flaws are very exploitable by the Republic's fleets.

 

And no, the Cross of Fire was completely different. The Imperial Ships were designed to all fire forward, Cross of Fire was designed to specifically target one specific area of the ship, and whilst this could not overwhelm Mon Calamari shields on their own, the Hammerheads have a steep Numbers advantage that would make it possible.

[Silenceo]

I think is definitely worth mentioning that all the Exile's companions were willing to die for her, and even though they were "hastily formed bonds" they were incredibly strong.

 

But I don't know what Wedge's relationships were with members of the Wroshyr Alliance.

 

Well, he led Rogue Squadron when Corran Horn joined, and they saved each others lives multiple times long before Corran even knew he was force sensitive. Cue the X-Wing Novels.

[StarSquirrel]

I think is definitely worth mentioning that all the Exile's companions were willing to die for her, and even though they were "hastily formed bonds" they were incredibly strong.

 

But I don't know what Wedge's relationships were with members of the Wroshyr Alliance.

 

Corran Horn? The best friend of Wedge's wife and vice-versa as well as one of the pilots he got closest to while serving with for numerous years? Or Dodonna, the man who led the assault on the first Death Star? A man he respects greatly.

 

yeah they totally don't have close bonds...

Edited July 29, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Aurbere]

Who are going to be leading the fleets?

[Selenial]

Corran Horn? The best friend of Wedge's wife and vice-versa as well as one of the pilots he got closest to while serving with for numerous years? Or Dodonna, the man with whom he lived on the Lusankya and later swore to save to the point it was an obsession he very nearly died for numerous times?

 

yeah they totally don't have close bonds...

 

I love that your posting this whilst also saying that there's no way in hell any of the WA would defect.

 

If Wedge's loyalties are stronger to the RR than Horn/Dodonna's are to the WA, Why the hell wouldn't they defect?

[Silenceo]

I agree that the Hapan Battledragons have severe flaws, every time they are brought up I state the obvious ones I have stated numerous times:

 

Light Armor

Bad Targeting (friendly fire)

Thin Section in Middle

 

Though, I also disagree with the though that Hammerheads, even if they have a x2 advantage, being able to pierce Mon Cal shielding systems due to their armament. Not to mention those MC-40's aren't exactly push overs themselves...

[Beniboybling]

Corran Horn? The best friend of Wedge's wife and vice-versa as well as one of the pilots he got closest to while serving with for numerous years? Or Dodonna, the man with whom he lived on the Lusankya and later swore to save to the point it was an obsession he very nearly died for numerous times?

 

yeah they totally don't have close bonds...

Cue cup of coffee.

 

I think we are getting a little heated here, I never said anything about them not having close bonds. In fact I made explicit the fact that I don't know what relationships Wedge had with others because I don't read that pile of - *cough*

 

I digress.

 

I think this comes down to information and opportunity, more importantly the latter, in the midst of a space battle you can't just wave to the opposition and say "hey can I join!", they need to be contacted and persuaded.

[StarSquirrel]

Its not a question of what impact it has on the Kaggath, but purely how one would class the Battle Dragon. To take into account external factors would be to make a biased decision I'm afraid.

 

And currently I can't see under what conditions it can be classed as a Light Cruiser.

 

fine, fine you're right... dang it Tune buddy, you're getting the shaft here.

 

Also Beni, you make a biased decision when you chose to shaft Tune here after you already approved his ships and numbers. At the very least let him pick a new ship if he wants to, this is kinda a very big deal especially when it comes to starfighter numbers and firepower.

[Silenceo]

I just wanted to note that the decision to decrease the number of battle dragons goes against how you said you were sorting the ships. If Tune found a ship that has that much firepower potential that small, give him his numbers and compliment him on a nice find.

 

You said we were going by the Anaxes War College System. Well, by that system they are Light Cruisers.

 

Do not go back on your previous decrees. It makes a mess for the judges when they have to go through them.

[Beniboybling]

fine, fine you're right... dang it Tune buddy, you're getting the shaft here.

 

Also Beni, you make a biased decision when you chose to shaft Tune here after you already approved his ships and numbers. At the very least let him pick a new ship if he wants to, this is kinda a very big deal especially when it comes to starfighter numbers and firepower.

I'm not doing this to favour or disfavour any one party, so again your accusations of biased elude me.

 

However it is unfair that Tune should have to pay for my mistakes, so I'll consult with him when he's available.

[Selenial]

fine, fine you're right... dang it Tune buddy, you're getting the shaft here.

 

Also Beni, you make a biased decision when you chose to shaft Tune here after you already approved his ships and numbers. At the very least let him pick a new ship if he wants to, this is kinda a very big deal especially when it comes to starfighter numbers and firepower.

 

Why? Tune could have spoken up against it.

 

Hell, Beni was going to give me over Double the Endurance-Class until I PM'd him like "Dude, ***"

[Aurbere]

Why? Tune could have spoken up against it.

 

Hell, Beni was going to give me over Double the Endurance-Class until I PM'd him like "Dude, ***"

 

Should'a let it go. That's what I did for my Scorps. Alas, he then figured out how epic they were.

[Selenial]

I just wanted to note that the decision to decrease the number of battle dragons goes against how you said you were sorting the ships. If Tune found a ship that has that much firepower potential that small, give him his numbers and compliment him on a nice find.

 

You said we were going by the Anaxes War College System. Well, by that system they are Light Cruisers.

 

Do not go back on your previous decrees. It makes a mess for the judges when they have to go through them.

 

No it's not... the Hapan Battle Dragon is a "cruiser" on the Verge of being a "Heavy Cruiser"

 

Whilst it's length was that of a large cruiser, it's shape would probably classify it as a Heavy Cruiser, given the fact that the Anaxes system was bent in the past to allow for ships with a larger surface area to classify as larger.

 

I mean come on, you made the same arguments about the Legacy of Torment.