Orizuru Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 He gets upset when you comment on something that's vaguely like something he said 15 pages ago but didn't comment on his 15 pages ago. He left a similar comment to me, but when I challenged him to prove it he grew suddenly silent. Someday he'll get enough hugs. Maybe he should get a puppy. Send him my way. I sell hugs for 5000 credits. For 50,000 credits, I could probably even come up with a puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabatus Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 And yet, there are entry barriers to raiding as well in form of gear, which also takes effort and credits to get. it is a price for an enitre guild, which is something people refuse to realize. A well organized guild capable of putting together an OPS team (meaning guild that has a chance at actually being a factor in conquests system) is more than capable of putting together 50 millions. That is a false analogy, and a sadly bad one. The analogy would be true if guilds were required to pay a 50 million credit entry fee to run ops, with you saying "but if you dont like the grind, go run flashpoints". The reality of course is that anyone can start ops at 55, with crafted or oriconian gear and there's no guild tax on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 That is a false analogy, and a sadly bad one. The analogy would be true if guilds were required to pay a 50 million credit entry fee to run ops, with you saying "but if you dont like the grind, go run flashpoints". The reality of course is that anyone can start ops at 55, with crafted or oriconian gear and there's no guild tax on it. A single person can easily be carried in a raid group when he has crappy gear. If the whole guild is in sub-par gear, then the raid isn't going anywhere. The guild, as a whole, has to be geared to Raid or it doesn't work. The guild, as a whole, has to grind out the credits for a Guild Ship, or it doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkheyr Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 The guild, as a whole, has to be geared to Raid or it doesn't work. Uhm, no. Group Finder bolsters you just fine. You can gear up for HM in story mode ops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabatus Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 A single person can easily be carried in a raid group when he has crappy gear. If the whole guild is in sub-par gear, then the raid isn't going anywhere. The guild, as a whole, has to be geared to Raid or it doesn't work. The guild, as a whole, has to grind out the credits for a Guild Ship, or it doesn't work. The text above completely ignores the contents of the post being replied to and contains irrelevant statements. The reality of course is that anyone can start ops at 55, with crafted or oriconian gear and there's no guild tax on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I didn't choose to ignore it. What a ridiculous assumption. You do know people have other things to do as well in real life so in threads like this you are bound to miss something? I do not read back all the pages of nonesense for gems, but I am glad he mentioned at a time I was here in a way that caught my attention. If you feel underappreciated because you said it first then good for you for mentioning it already. I just missed it. If you are someone who reads everything he missed I probably would just feel sorry for you. Guess I am the only one who reads these "heated discussion" topics from the newest post made since last visit then? However, I do apologize, it may not have been in this thread, but in one of the others, where your response to this kind of replies (that getting the money proves the guild is capable of pulling together) was basically centered around the assumptions that guild leaders cannot be trusted (because they will take your money and /gkick you). And I do not feel underappreciated, I couldn't care less about who posted it first (and I did not claim I posted it first), just wondering what made you suddenly switch your opinion around, that suddenly getting the credits proves that guild is capable of working together, instead of evil GM taking money and kicking everybody out. He gets upset when you comment on something that's vaguely like something he said 15 pages ago but didn't comment on his 15 pages ago. He left a similar comment to me, but when I challenged him to prove it he grew suddenly silent. Someday he'll get enough hugs. Maybe he should get a puppy. I am sorry, what comment of yours did I ignore (I tried searching trough my recent posts, but I couldn't find it)? Unless I am mistaken, I agreed with you on most things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 That is a false analogy, and a sadly bad one. The analogy would be true if guilds were required to pay a 50 million credit entry fee to run ops, with you saying "but if you dont like the grind, go run flashpoints". The reality of course is that anyone can start ops at 55, with crafted or oriconian gear and there's no guild tax on it. I was talking about Hard Modes and Nightmare modes, I thought that was clear. Story Modes are not really a guild content (beyond trying it for first few times to get the hang of basic mechanics and maybe to grind stuff from it). And there is theoretically a gate on that kind of content, because you simply cannot complete Hard/Nightmare Modes if your groups the gear and/or are incapable of working together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkheyr Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I was talking about Hard Modes and Nightmare modes, I thought that was clear. Story Modes are not really a guild content (beyond trying it for first few times to get the hang of basic mechanics and maybe to grind stuff from it). And there is theoretically a gate on that kind of content, because you simply cannot complete Hard/Nightmare Modes if your groups the gear and/or are incapable of working together. Yet you can do operations right when reaching 55, and after some storymode you have sufficient gear to attempt hardmode. Its a natural progression. Grinding credits for a guild ship before you can ever start doing guild content is not quite the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Yet you can do operations right when reaching 55, and after some storymode you have sufficient gear to attempt hardmode. Its a natural progression. Grinding credits for a guild ship before you can ever start doing guild content is not quite the same. Sure it is. You have to prepare before you can do it. It's not rocket science, gosh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Yet you can do operations right when reaching 55, and after some storymode you have sufficient gear to attempt hardmode. Its a natural progression. Grinding credits for a guild ship before you can ever start doing guild content is not quite the same. I will admit, I have not been an OPS with a PUG for a very long time (because it ends up being waste of time and money, because it is woefully disorganized and some bosses cannot be beaten if people do not listen to tactics), but I am pretty sure one run is not enough to get you a full set and/or enough commendations to get full armor without set bonus. However, yes, I will agree that nobody is stopping you from trying HM/NiM even without gear (theoretically, assuming someone actually put together a PUG for that and does not check gear), but you will fail, meaning you will waste your time and money (and time and money of others, if they wipe because of lack of gear and/or coordination of certain members of the group). I assume we will have to wait to see Personal Conquests, with seem to me like they could provide a way to test this type of content, before deciding to jump in with a guild to much harder version of it. To try to make sense of this analogy, because I think it got a bit out of hand. If your guild gathers credits, they prove they probably have what it takes to compete in the system, so imagine it like a gear check and making sure that the group can actually do it (for example, you do not go fight the Dread Council if you had some serious problems beating the previous bosses). If everybody was free to jump in, it would probably lead to people complaining they are getting massacred in it, leading to nerfs, leading to other people complain it is now too easy, and in the end, no one would compete in the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Uhm, no. Group Finder bolsters you just fine. You can gear up for HM in story mode ops. This is true. But remember that you're competing for gear with 7 other people. How many weeks of running bolstered SM operations through the group finder before you have enough gear to run HM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabatus Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I will admit, I have not been an OPS with a PUG for a very long time (because it ends up being waste of time and money, because it is woefully disorganized and some bosses cannot be beaten if people do not listen to tactics), but I am pretty sure one run is not enough to get you a full set and/or enough commendations to get full armor without set bonus. A disproportiate and forcedly overreaching attempt at analogy. We're not talking to something similar to running the content you want to do anyways for a number of times, we're talking about potentially tens upon tens of hours of doing content you don't want to do and that requires no skill or effort other than the mindnumbing grind to get to content you want. However, yes, I will agree that nobody is stopping you from trying HM/NiM even without gear (theoretically, assuming someone actually put together a PUG for that and does not check gear), but you will fail, meaning you will waste your time and money (and time and money of others, if they wipe because of lack of gear and/or coordination of certain members of the group). Again, a disproportiate and forcedly overreaching attempt at analogy. The corrent analogy, as noted, was requiring guilds and a 50m deposit to run any ops. I assume we will have to wait to see Personal Conquests, with seem to me like they could provide a way to test this type of content, before deciding to jump in with a guild to much harder version of it. That's actually the sole partially fair point in the post, we must indeed wait and see to find out what conquests really are. Given that it has been said that its not PvP and it has a major crafting component to it, it will likely be a grind-type thing in large part. Sadly it looks like we're not getting to it quite this week yet. Also, let's not conveniently push aside the fact that guild ships themselves are content for people once again. Putting solo and group content together in one pot is just fuzzing the topic however, do you also recommend people who are looking to get into HM ops running to go run class stories? To try to make sense of this analogy, because I think it got a bit out of hand. If your guild gathers credits, they prove they probably have what it takes to compete in the system, so imagine it like a gear check and making sure that the group can actually do it (for example, you do not go fight the Dread Council if you had some serious problems beating the previous bosses). If everybody was free to jump in, it would probably lead to people complaining they are getting massacred in it, leading to nerfs, leading to other people complain it is now too easy, and in the end, no one would compete in the system. Again, comparing apples with airplanes with lazer-beam-bearing-sharks as engines. Grinding credits proves nothing other than the ability to brainnumbingly grind. It does not make anyone a special flavored snowflake. Also, are you basically admitting you don't want other people to access the content in the end of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 A disproportiate and forcedly overreaching attempt at analogy. We're not talking to something similar to running the content you want to do anyways for a number of times, we're talking about potentially tens upon tens of hours of doing content you don't want to do Welcome to MMOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkheyr Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 This is true. But remember that you're competing for gear with 7 other people. How many weeks of running bolstered SM operations through the group finder before you have enough gear to run HM? Not all that many, but more importantly, you are progressing while doing the content you are interested in - operations. Thats sort of my main point here. I don't do PvP or credit grind or GSF or whatever to do HM operations, I do storymode operations, which are the entry level for that kind of content. But for some inexplicable reason, guildships and by extension guild conquest requires you to do something entirely different first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabatus Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Welcome to MMOs. Where you get trolled in the forums by vague content-void 'i think that makes me win' oneliners? That I can survive On the other hand, if you are talking about the game, I must admit that makes me feel sorry for you. I've played here since launch and I have not been forced to do content I care little for yet. Ops do not require GSF, class stories don't require dailys etc. Thus, when it seems I or my friends will be forced into something like that, I will voice my opinion loudly and proudly. True, the likelyhood of being heard, especially mixed into the 'we are elite, plebes should not be allowed to play in our elite sandbox' opinions, is pretty minimal, but hey, it still gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside to get it off my chest. Edited July 31, 2014 by Sabatus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 A disproportiate and forcedly overreaching attempt at analogy. We're not talking to something similar to running the content you want to do anyways for a number of times, we're talking about potentially tens upon tens of hours of doing content you don't want to do and that requires no skill or effort other than the mindnumbing grind to get to content you want. Not all that many, but more importantly, you are progressing while doing the content you are interested in - operations. This assumes someone want to do nothing BUT the conquest system. That is something I find hard to believe, because we existed for nearly 3 years without conquest system. Yes, you are required to get credits, but that is something which comes from every possible content that exists in the game. Just because you think you have to grind dailies like maniac does not mean it is the only way. It may be the most obvious and seemingly fastest way, but I will not claim it is one way or another. I already posted it in another topic, so I will quote myself And again, in my experience, most people would not take an enormous defeat graciously, and they would probably leave the system, never to try it again (which is what happened to GSF, in my opinion). The investment into the ships provides, in my mind, something that would make people willing to keep trying, even if they would not win that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabatus Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 This assumes someone want to do nothing BUT the conquest system. That is something I find hard to believe, because we existed for nearly 3 years without conquest system. Yes, you are required to get credits, but that is something which comes from every possible content that exists in the game. Just because you think you have to grind dailies like maniac does not mean it is the only way. It may be the most obvious and seemingly fastest way, but I will not claim it is one way or another. Locking people out of content for weeks or months and demanding them to do credit grinds is the key. Argument that they could do it even slower and be locked out even longer doing another type of content is irrelevant. You could even tell them to buy cartel packs and sell them on GTN, which would basically realmoneygate the free content, but that is just taking the irrelevant argument to an even higher hyperbolic level. And again, in my experience, most people would not take an enormous defeat graciously, and they would probably leave the system, never to try it again (which is what happened to GSF, in my opinion). The investment into the ships provides, in my mind, something that would make people willing to keep trying, even if they would not win that much. By this logic, all but the top server raiding guild (in fact, even everyone in there but the exact group who got whatever server first) and the top server pvper should have already left the game. Which, obviously, has not happened. Not everyone wants the golden trophy, participating and having fun is their main goal. I would say it is much more likely that smaller guilds will in fact say eff that to the 50m price tag and feel severely undervalued, causing them to ignore the system and leaving them with a very bad taste of the game in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Where you get trolled in the forums by vague content-void 'i think that makes me win' oneliners? That I can survive On the other hand, if you are talking about the game, I must admit that makes me feel sorry for you. I've played here since launch and I have not been forced to do content I care little for yet. Ops do not require GSF, class stories don't require dailys etc. Thus, when it seems I or my friends will be forced into something like that, I will voice my opinion loudly and proudly. True, the likelyhood of being heard, especially mixed into the 'we are elite, plebes should not be allowed to play in our elite sandbox' opinions, is pretty minimal, but hey, it still gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside to get it off my chest. I'll be doing PVP and dreading it, but only doing it in guild groups. I want the Decorations that come from the warzone vendors and so do my Guildies who are also not very huge fans of PVP. Also, I find it hilarious and fascinating that you read posts and see: 'we are elite, plebes should not be allowed to play in our elite sandbox' That explains a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottythebod Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Where you get trolled in the forums by vague content-void 'i think that makes me win' oneliners? That I can survive On the other hand, if you are talking about the game, I must admit that makes me feel sorry for you. I've played here since launch and I have not been forced to do content I care little for yet. Ops do not require GSF, class stories don't require dailys etc. Thus, when it seems I or my friends will be forced into something like that, I will voice my opinion loudly and proudly. True, the likelyhood of being heard, especially mixed into the 'we are elite, plebes should not be allowed to play in our elite sandbox' opinions, is pretty minimal, but hey, it still gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside to get it off my chest. My question is what content are you doing that doesn't earn you credits? You like to do PvE, run some PvE with your guild & put the credits in the guild bank? PvP more your thing? Do PvP with guild mates & put all the credits into the guild bank. You like crafting, craft & sell on the GTN put the profits in guild bank. I guess my first question is what do you actually enjoy doing in game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabatus Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Also, I find it hilarious and fascinating that you read posts and see: That explains a lot. See DarthTHC's (or something similar, the fancy green stuff) posts on "real" guilds in the PTS forums (prolly elsewhere as well) and you'll get to read 'em as well. I was not referring to to the latest particular posts specifically, though this is quite close: If everybody was free to jump in, it would probably lead to people complaining they are getting massacred in it, leading to nerfs, leading to other people complain it is now too easy, and in the end, no one would compete in the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord_Maliken Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Yeah I dont really agree or disagree. one thing is for sure. Bioware/EA design philosophy is a 360 turn from Blizzard's. I am always very interested to see where these two companies take their mmo's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kunda Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Bioware/EA design philosophy is a 360 turn from Blizzard's. So they're exactly the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabatus Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 My question is what content are you doing that doesn't earn you credits? You like to do PvE, run some PvE with your guild & put the credits in the guild bank? PvP more your thing? Do PvP with guild mates & put all the credits into the guild bank. You like crafting, craft & sell on the GTN put the profits in guild bank. I guess my first question is what do you actually enjoy doing in game? I enjoy doing the content I like at at my own pace. I do HM ops, I do SM ops, I dabble in crafting, I have an unreasonably high number of alts because I enjoy class stories and its the most "fourth pillar-ish" content left for us. I do not enjoy grinding just because of grinding. I don't think I've done a single daily for a good 6-9 months. To be clear, I have enough assets to unlock the capital ship fully on day 1 and it is relatively likely that I will do so for the guild so they can get to the content without having to pay extra or grind extra. I however do not agree that our guild should need someone like that to access new content and I think it sets a very dangerous precedent for the future. The cost barrier is nothing but a credit sink to vacuum extra credits out of the system and it is badly implemented onetime thing, the "organized effort" there is just words. It will affect smaller guilds without "whales" negatively forcing them to grind and save up to access content instead of enjoying the game and using their earnings for better uses. I do not believe the 50m credit entry cost has a reasonable cost/benefit ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amantino Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Stop expecting to get everything for free. You want something cool, work for it. 50mill is not a lot of credits. Bioware are catering to the casual when it comes to about everything, it's good they went away from that for once. Bunch of crybabies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabatus Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Stop expecting to get everything for free. You want something cool, work for it. 50mill is not a lot of credits. Bioware are catering to the casual when it comes to about everything, it's good they went away from that for once. Bunch of crybabies. Noone has asked everything for free. For me, getting the guildship on day 1 will require less effort than a good fart and I still think it is stupidly overpriced. If you want to be rude with someone, find a family member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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