Black talon esseles

[Darth__Reaver]

Why are these 2 FPs the only i ones that have a story?

[Khevar]

Eh? Most all flashpoints have a story.

 

Some of them are one-offs with a minor story:

 

Hammer Station

Athiss

Mandalorian Raiders

Cademimu

Collicoid

Red Reaper

Directive 7

 

Others have a story that cross multiple flashpoints:

 

Corporate Labs - Core Meltdown

Kaon - Lost Island

Taral V - Maelstron Prison - Boarding Party - The Foundry

Battle of Ilum - False Emperor

[TheBBP]

Someone has been space-barring and they don't know why.

[theSCARAYone]

They all have stories, just not necessarily contained within dialogue in the actual FP.

[SgtJeremy]

There are some flashpoints that have story that actually span multiple flashpoints. You'd know that if you actually played numerous flashpoints. I assume you don't cause you claim only the beginner flashpoints have story.

[AshlaBoga]

I'd say that the Mysterious Prisoner (Taral V and Maelstrom Prison) and Mysterious Jedi (Boarding Party and Foundry) have more story than any other FPs in the game. Not sure what OP is talking about.

[Trevalon]

Why are these 2 FPs the only i ones that have a story?

 

 

Despite what the die-hards are throwing at you, I understand what your saying (and secretly they do too, they just wont admit it because that means admitting BW did something wrong)

 

the truth is because they knew that the max level most people got to during beta weekends was 12-15 IE just in time to do Esseles/Black Talon. So they obviously spent a ton of time making this flashpoints bigger and more epic in terms of story to get people talking and hooked on the game....and it worked!

 

I remember in beta how everyone was running back to WoW talking about how awesome the first flashpoints were in SWTOR with the story arcs and all that, but then you get to every FP after that and while, yes they do have stories, they just are not presented as well or as rich of a story as those first 2 flaspoints. I remember it being a very very huge deal that the "dungeons" in SWTOR were so much more involved and interesting and actually had stories...come to find out, only the first 2 were like that, the rest are pretty standard MMO dungeon affairs.

 

They were a way to "grab" people and keep them playing - I distinctly remember one of my good friends going in with me to Hammer Station and he said: "I cant wait to see this flashpoint, if its anything like Esseles then it will be great" and the moment we got done he said: "well that was kind of a letdown"

Edited July 18, 2014 by Trevalon

[Kulyok]

Yes, I agree. I remember trying Hammer Station/Athiss/Raiders/Cademimu and being disappointed, and then trying the Call to Arms/Foundry flashpoints and being hugely disappointed. (Okay, Foundry had at least two nice conversations, but... really? That's it? Two Revan flashpoints = two hours of mindless grinding? Grrr.) Same with ops - there's hardly any story besides an opening dialogue and an ending dialogue. Same goes for the latest Korriban/Tython flashpoints, btw.

 

I don't think we should expect any story from new flashpoints. Rather, hope that the next expansion would provide story in a more classic way - a planet, a quest, some references to the class, some interesting characters - and a good story.

[OddballEasyEight]

Despite what the die-hards are throwing at you, I understand what your saying (and secretly they do too, they just wont admit it because that means admitting BW did something wrong)

 

the truth is because they knew that the max level most people got to during beta weekends was 12-15 IE just in time to do Esseles/Black Talon. So they obviously spent a ton of time making this flashpoints bigger and more epic in terms of story to get people talking and hooked on the game....and it worked!

 

I remember in beta how everyone was running back to WoW talking about how awesome the first flashpoints were in SWTOR with the story arcs and all that, but then you get to every FP after that and while, yes they do have stories, they just are not presented as well or as rich of a story as those first 2 flaspoints. I remember it being a very very huge deal that the "dungeons" in SWTOR were so much more involved and interesting and actually had stories...come to find out, only the first 2 were like that, the rest are pretty standard MMO dungeon affairs.

 

They were a way to "grab" people and keep them playing - I distinctly remember one of my good friends going in with me to Hammer Station and he said: "I cant wait to see this flashpoint, if its anything like Esseles then it will be great" and the moment we got done he said: "well that was kind of a letdown"

 

Well that's just not true.

Yes, those two flashpoints are the only ones with that much dialogue and cutscenes, but it's not because of some beta stunt to pull in more players.

It's simply because those were the first FP's they made and they realized that was overly ambitious to do for every FP in the game. You'll notice this if you look at how they are presented in-world and when they appear. BT/Ess is very prominently placed right at an intersection that all players have to pass to get to DK/Cor and most new players will click on that triangle when they pass through there. The FP is litterally "on the way" to their destination and some even go there on their own before they realize it's meant for more than one player. And at the end of the FP's you get to pick if you want to continue to DK/Cor or go back to the station.

All other FP's, however, are simply plonked down on fleet without ceremony and sure there are a few shuttles spread out on some of the planets, but the FP's are in no way connected to the players path through his personal story and seem completely separate.

But there are other FP's out there that have quite a bit of story to them, just not as much as those. BT/Ess seem almost part of the players class story.

[Trevalon]

Well that's just not true.

Yes, those two flashpoints are the only ones with that much dialogue and cutscenes, but it's not because of some beta stunt to pull in more players.

It's simply because those were the first FP's they made and they realized that was overly ambitious to do for every FP in the game. You'll notice this if you look at how they are presented in-world and when they appear. BT/Ess is very prominently placed right at an intersection that all players have to pass to get to DK/Cor and most new players will click on that triangle when they pass through there. The FP is litterally "on the way" to their destination and some even go there on their own before they realize it's meant for more than one player. And at the end of the FP's you get to pick if you want to continue to DK/Cor or go back to the station.

All other FP's, however, are simply plonked down on fleet without ceremony and sure there are a few shuttles spread out on some of the planets, but the FP's are in no way connected to the players path through his personal story and seem completely separate.

But there are other FP's out there that have quite a bit of story to them, just not as much as those. BT/Ess seem almost part of the players class story.

 

To some extent you are correct in that perhaps they realized they overextended themselves with those FP's (That being said you are assuming those are the first 2 Flashpoints they made, You have no idea if that's true - like Movies MMO's are not created in order in which you play them and they very well could have created the level 50 flashpoints first.

 

That being said, if you honestly don't think that there was a designer meeting where they were all sitting at a table designing these flashpoints and someone didn't say the words: "You know the first 2 flashpoints have to be really amazing to get people hooked" - then your naivete rivals only that of an infant.

 

Nothing goes into an MMO that isn't discussed, talked, and weighed in designer meetings. The choice to make those 2 Flashpoints be the very first 2 you see and the fact that they are the most well designed flashpoints is definitely not a coincidence.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Trevalon

[errant_knight]

Why are these 2 FPs the only i ones that have a story?

 

They do have the most dialogue, though. I keep wanting more like that and we keep getting tactical with 3 lines of dialogue.

[DarthDymond]

Eh? Most all flashpoints have a story.

 

Some of them are one-offs with a minor story:

 

Hammer Station

Athiss

Mandalorian Raiders

Cademimu

Collicoid

Red Reaper

Directive 7

 

Others have a story that cross multiple flashpoints:

 

Corporate Labs - Core Meltdown

Kaon - Lost Island

Taral V - Maelstron Prison - Boarding Party - The Foundry

Battle of Ilum - False Emperor

This is true, plus the Tython/Korriban flashpoints which kick off a larger story.

 

But the difference I think OP is honing in on is that for most FPs the story is delivered in the quests that lead you to the FP, fall between the two linked FPs, and that conclude after you finish. This is a design decision to accomplish two things that are usually in tension with each other:

1) Make it so they still have story content for the flashpoints.

2) Make it so the flashpoints can be run in a reasonable amount of time, so that your fifth run isn't driving you crazy.

 

Part of me liked how deeply integrated the story felt in BT/Esseles, but at the same time I think what they're doing now is better, on balance. Right now you can view the story aspects of a FP at your own leisure since they mainly take place outside of the instance, which you might be running with a PUG made up of people who are less interested in story. (If you're running with a full group that is interested in the story, there's nothing stopping you from keeping the group together and playing through the conversations together as well)

 

In my experience, even in Group Finder PUGs most groups are cool with someone watching the cut-scenes if they just say from the beginning it's their first time there, since the conversations are kept relatively short (with the long ones outside the instance). If more FPs had the kind of frequent, long cut-scenes as BT/Esseles, I really think you'd see a lot more players vote-kicking or dropping to avoid them.

Edited July 18, 2014 by DarthDymond

[hadoken]

To some extent you are correct in that perhaps they realized they overextended themselves with those FP's (That being said you are assuming those are the first 2 Flashpoints they made, You have no idea if that's true - like Movies MMO's are not created in order in which you play them and they very well could have created the level 50 flashpoints first.

 

That being said, if you honestly don't think that there was a designer meeting where they were all sitting at a table designing these flashpoints and someone didn't say the words: "You know the first 2 flashpoints have to be really amazing to get people hooked" - then your naivete rivals only that of an infant.

 

Nothing goes into an MMO that isn't discussed, talked, and weighed in designer meetings. The choice to make those 2 Flashpoints be the very first 2 you see and the fact that they are the most well designed flashpoints is definitely not a coincidence.

 

No he's right, they were the first few made and tested. And the beta players wanted more, a LOT more, so in order to do that they had to cut out lengthy conversation options and dialogue. That's not even taking into account the later on playerbase just wanting to rush through multiplayer content WOW-style (which the quicker development enabled in this game). They were not originally expecting to have the number of flashpoints they ended up having. They did not consider them the equivalent of WOW (or whoever) leveling dungeons, but that's definitely what the players wanted.

 

So really, they just gave us what we wanted.

[errant_knight]

They've tried to deliver content that meets the needs of different types of players, but I think it's gone too far in appeasing the convenience oriented, speed run players. It would be nice to have a new fp geared toward those players who appreciated the depth and quality of the earlier fps.

[DomiSotto]

You run those for the most part with random strangers trying not to die and keep up. What story? Just a comm fest and a money sink and a demo of how horrible the fights could be. Flashpoints suck.

[errant_knight]

You run those for the most part with random strangers trying not to die and keep up. What story? Just a comm fest and a money sink and a demo of how horrible the fights could be. Flashpoints suck.

 

Lol! Wrong. A good fp with a good group is extremely satisfying. While I enjoy all the story fps, I do have favorites. Kaon is great. Very evocative. The foundry is also excellent. Heck, I enjoy most of them a lot. Either you've had universally bad groups or you don't enjoy combat all that much, I'd guess.

[DomiSotto]

What I do not like is chaos. And FP = Chaos. I play with my 2 friends through the game now and we are actually doing the FPs, and it's fine, but with 2 people or in a pug I do not like it.

 

+companions perform badly (since it requires avoiding red circles and stuff)

+you need foreknowledge to go through the boss fights (which is unrealistic)

+everyone spacebars

+nobody says anything

+cost of death is enabled and not scaled down while mortality chance is higher than in the leveling. When every credit counts FP is just not worth it.

+if you have a tank and never done an FP, what's then.

 

By comparison, for PvP it takes very little time, and no matter how inexperienced you are, you have a winning experience because it's short, shows you what to work on in a skillset, rewards you lavishly and there is no penalty whatsoever.

Edited July 18, 2014 by DomiSotto

[TX_Angel]

What I do not like is chaos. And FP = Chaos. I play with my 2 friends through the game now and we are actually doing the FPs, and it's fine, but overall I do not like it.

 

+companions perform badly (since it requires avoiding red circles and stuff)

+you need foreknowledge to go through the boss fights (which is unrealistic)

+everyone spacebars

+nobody says anything

+cost of death is enabled and not scaled down while mortality chance is higher than in the leveling. When every credit counts FP is just not worth it.

 

Learning the boss fights is part of the fun, however... otherwise it is just "shoot stuff" and gets boring fast.

 

People spacebar because they have seen the same content dozens of times.

 

Speak up first! I tend to say stuff, but yea, many people don't reply.

 

As for the cost of death... meh... if that is an issue, you're not doing it right. There are so many credits at end game, even just running dailies, that death costs should be minor.

 

If I recall, you don't have any of your toons to lvl 55 yet, or has that now changed?

 

Once a week, take your best geared 55 and run:

 

Ilum

Black Hole

Section X

CZ-198

Makeb (if you can stand the place)

Oricon

 

Make sure you get all the weeklies at each place.

 

You'll earn, give or take, somewhere between 500K and 1 million credits after selling all the stuff you get along the way.

 

Each month, just doing that one day a week, should earn you over 2 million credits.

 

Frankly, even doing it once a month will make you rich, and make things like repair costs unnoticeable.

[Khevar]

What I do not like is chaos. And FP = Chaos. I play with my 2 friends through the game now and we are actually doing the FPs, and it's fine, but with 2 people or in a pug I do not like it.

It really depends on the type of people you run into.

 

One the best experiences I had in this game was in a pug False Emperor FP. The other three players in the group finder pop were friendly, chatty, and humorous. During cutscenes they commented on things the enemies were saying (as, in talking back to the NPCs), told in-character jokes, and poked fun at each other and of things like knocking droids off of ledges. At the very end someone typed *flush* right as the bad guy was knocked down the reactor shaft.

 

Basically, it was a group of people having fun. It's specifically for experiences like this that I play group content.

[DomiSotto]

+ Six month into the game, my only L54 character, a DPS, and she is undergeared, and freshly finished Corellia (My other L53 is specced as a pure Healer, with a DPS comp, I never played her solo).

+ Every time she dies, it is a good 10 thou repair bill.

+I have never been able to sell the drops on GTN for anything above 30-50% of the suggested price, so most of it goes to vendors. Blues and purples go to the younger alts.

+ It took me a good 3 weeks to finish Corellia, so doing what? 6 planets in a day, that's far beyond what I can possibly accomplish, with Makeb and Oricon and quite possibly most of it will just be a die-fest and drain what little savings I managed rather than build it up

 

I like PvP way more now I tried it: it takes very little time, and no matter how inexperienced you are, you have a winning experience because it's short, shows you what to work on in a skillset, rewards you lavishly and there is no penalty whatsoever.

Edited July 18, 2014 by DomiSotto

[DomiSotto]

One the best experiences I had in this game was in a pug False Emperor FP. The other three players in the group finder pop were friendly, chatty, and humorous. During cutscenes they commented on things the enemies were saying (as, in talking back to the NPCs), told in-character jokes, and poked fun at each other and of things like knocking droids off of ledges. At the very end someone typed *flush* right as the bad guy was knocked down the reactor shaft.

 

Because 3 people exercise control. When we play 3x we do the same - and we normally pull out a nice high level DPS from the queue. And someone actually knows the terrain and the fight strategy that is shared. That's fine. That's not chaos. Normally an FP is a chaos. With 2 people, well, one of us is normally a tank, so we can't pug ('cause a tank!) and with companions we won Hammer through dying on the last battle which means that's probably it for FP'ing for us.

[jorill]

+ Six month into the game, my only L54 character, a DPS, and she is undergeared, and freshly finished Corellia (My other L53 is specced as a pure Healer, with a DPS comp, I never played her solo).

+ Every time she dies, it is a good 10 thou repair bill.

+I have never been able to sell the drops on GTN for anything above 30-50% of the suggested price, so most of it goes to vendors. Blues and purples go to the younger alts.

+ It took me a good 3 weeks to finish Corellia, so doing what? 6 planets in a day, that's far beyond what I can possibly accomplish, with Makeb and Oricon and quite possibly most of it will just be a die-fest and drain what little savings I managed rather than build it up

 

I like PvP way more now I tried it: it takes very little time, and no matter how inexperienced you are, you have a winning experience because it's short, shows you what to work on in a skillset, rewards you lavishly and there is no penalty whatsoever.

 

they arent saying do 6 planets in a day. They are referring to the weeklies and dailies on each planet. You can probably do one of those in 30 minutes. Its not the same as going through a planet.

[DomiSotto]

Well, don't you have to explore, find it, and stuff? I am sorry, I have never been. I planned on doing PvP till I finish changing into Makeb comm gear and try Illum to see if it is doable, then worry about dailies. Edited July 18, 2014 by DomiSotto

[OddballEasyEight]

To some extent you are correct in that perhaps they realized they overextended themselves with those FP's (That being said you are assuming those are the first 2 Flashpoints they made, You have no idea if that's true - like Movies MMO's are not created in order in which you play them and they very well could have created the level 50 flashpoints first.

 

That being said, if you honestly don't think that there was a designer meeting where they were all sitting at a table designing these flashpoints and someone didn't say the words: "You know the first 2 flashpoints have to be really amazing to get people hooked" - then your naivete rivals only that of an infant.

 

Nothing goes into an MMO that isn't discussed, talked, and weighed in designer meetings. The choice to make those 2 Flashpoints be the very first 2 you see and the fact that they are the most well designed flashpoints is definitely not a coincidence.

 

No, those were among the first made. They were showed off long before the game went into beta IIRC and during the beta people loved them and wanted more, but it seems they decided that they couldn't deliver on that (for whatever reason, I would suspect time restraints which is the most common reason for cutting content) and made the other flashpoints with either pretty much no story at all or having the story delivered through voices on speakers and the like.

 

And there was no meeting where they met and said cynically that they had to "hook" everyone on the first flashpoints (since there is oh-so much more to hook people with at an early stage). It was just the simple fact that they made the first flashpoints first, and then had to scale back on the effort in flashpoints to meet their deadlines.

And if you compare Black Talon as they showed it before beta to how it is now, you'll notice that alot has changed between then and now.

And that was one of the first flashpoints they did, so if that wasn't done by the time the game went into beta, you can imagine how much they had left to do on the rest before release.

[psandak]

All other FP's, however, are simply plonked down on fleet without ceremony and sure there are a few shuttles spread out on some of the planets, but the FP's are in no way connected to the players path through his personal story and seem completely separate.

 

But that is not entirely true either. On fleet and on level appropriate planets there are droids waiting for you to initiate a conversation and they prompt you to go to fleet and the mission departure area and talk to the lead NPC (Satele or Malgus). AND after the FP is over yo talk to that NPC again.

 

I will agree that most FPs are little more than glorified side quests, but there is story behind them.