OK this is getting rather silly regarding hard mode Flashpoint GF

[Callaron]

I think its that the SI/JC think the knockback does 1000 times more damage than any other AoE.

 

All joking aside, I believe the really issue is the fact that SI/JC get the knockback at lvl 3 and it becomes part of their rotation and these knockback spammer fail to understand a proper rotation.

 

Yep. It's also undeniably useful at those levels. And even on the higher levels when you're playing solo.

Of course solo you are facing 90% normal mobs, that get knocked flat on their *** for a while. Which provides a nice tactical advantage. In a Flashpoint you're up against mostly strong, elite and champion mobs that just bounce back a few steps (and probably laugh their *** off).

[discosoc]

I stopped tanking because I got tired of dealing with DPS that insists on pulling mobs, or refusing to focus fire, or not bothering to interrupt, while complaining non-stop about how tanks are all drama queens. Also -- and I don't know for certain, but I still suspect -- healing is not very forgiving in this game.

 

Another downside was that my Vanguard tank had a hell of a time doing dailies in that spec. Either I brought my healing companion and very slowly whittled down mob health, or I brought DPS and had a decent kill (but still slow) time with tons of near-deaths. So basically, in almost all aspects of PvE, being a tank was simply not rewarding.

[tharbison]

To be fair, it's not entirely 'bad dps'. I leveled my last Vanguard tank almost exclusively thru GF FP's and heorics. For the most part, GF & pug groups are ok. Yeah, you get occasional derps, but not only dps. I expect the same can be said about tanks and healers too. And I'm not talking about endgame, I don't play it and can't speak to that.

 

You also have to consider the anxiety of the tank being the group 'leader', and expected to know the FP inside and out. I believe that's a big part of the reason tanks don't queue either. There's a lot of pressure, which creates stress. Most people I know play to have fun, not get stressed out

[discosoc]

Won't work.

 

I play a tank. I love to tank. Just not in PUGs.

 

There is no level of temporary buff, nor level of money (even 1,000,000 credits per successful run), and no amount of commendations that would get me to tank a PUG. I don't need the buff; I can already faceroll everything in the game. I don't need the money because I know how to play the credit game. I certainly don't need the commendations because I tank for a guild that does respectfully well at endgame.

 

The way to inspire tanks to play their roles is... well, we tanks are already inspired to play our roles.

 

So the way to inspire tanks to play their roles in a group of randoms is for that group of randoms to learn how to play without sucking. That's the incentive. Make the experience fun for tanks instead of hell for tanks. Then we'll queue with you more.

 

Other tanks on this thread have already outlined the issues and what all you non-tanks need to do to improve... to inspire us to queue more.

 

But... as you said... we ain't never gonna see that.

 

It could easily work. Blizzard had to do something similar with WoW years ago, because of the exact same problem. People weren't playing tanks and, to a lesser degree, weren't playing healers. So they added a bonus satchel for pugging as a needed role, that had a pretty good chance of dropping things like pets and mounts. Many of the mounts, in particular, were otherwise very difficult or time consuming to obtain.

 

SWtOR has a slightly different economy so most things from the cartel market are dirt cheap on the GTN unless they are one of the few chase items, but if Bioware introduced some unique items that were only obtainable through queuing up in GF as a needed role, it could very well result in massive improvements.

[discosoc]

To be fair, it's not entirely 'bad dps'. I leveled my last Vanguard tank almost exclusively thru GF FP's and heorics. For the most part, GF & pug groups are ok. Yeah, you get occasional derps, but not only dps. I expect the same can be said about tanks and healers too. And I'm not talking about endgame, I don't play it and can't speak to that.

 

You also have to consider the anxiety of the tank being the group 'leader', and expected to know the FP inside and out. I believe that's a big part of the reason tanks don't queue either. There's a lot of pressure, which creates stress. Most people I know play to have fun, not get stressed out

 

Your last part sort of ties into the "bad dps" argument. Tanks aren't really given a chance to learn the FP inside and out, or even figure out how to pace their pull speed, because the dps so often won't let them. And if the tank asks them to stop pulling or wait for the tank to get agro or whatever, suddenly it means the tank is some diva trying to push everyone around. If the tank stays silent instead, he gets labeled as a bad tank who needs to "L2P."

[tharbison]

..., but if Bioware introduced some unique items that were only obtainable through queuing up in GF as a needed role, it could very well result in massive improvements.

 

I agree. As long as the items were desirable. Maybe just put a slot machine at the end of the FP that only the tank could use - it would spit out cartel coins, mounts, or whatever!

[Thoronmir]

I tried playing a tank once. Once. I deleted him after his first Esseles run and haven't made anything capable of tanking since. I hate tanking. I've hated tanking in every MMO I've ever played. If my choice was to either play a tank in any MMO or be forced to play Hello Kitty: Island Adventure as my only videogame ... well, "Hello Kitty!"

 

But I do play healers. I love healers. More than half of my 16 characters are healers. Most of those are Sages or Sorcerers. Having played only DPS in all my previous MMOs, I was a little shocked how much I enjoyed healing in SWTOR. I only made my first Sage because I started playing SWTOR with two friends who had already claimed the Tank and DPS roles in our little triumvirate.

 

As much as I hate tanking, I have great respect for tanks. In my PUG experience, they usually seem to know what they're doing. It's like my maid. I don't enjoy cleaning my bathroom, but I'm damn glad I have someone willing to do it. My "default" setting in FPs or OPs is "Stick to the Tank" ... if the DPS want to wander off and attack other stuff for grins and giggles, that's on them. Of course, all such rules are subject to a coherent plan articulated at the start of the run.

 

I play Hunters mostly in LOTRO and I have a little maxim my friends seem to enjoy: "If my Hunter hits something with his sword, our plan has gone terribly wrong." I feel the same about my Sages/Sorcs. If my healer is using an offensive ability, something has probably gone wrong. Not that I'm above or unwilling to add a little DPS for the cause if it does not interfere with my healing. But I'm pretty happy if I can just cycle through my shield, cleanse, and healing skills. All my friends and Guildmates know ... Thor's light saber is just for show.

 

I hadn't really PUG'd in a long time until recently. I started a new Sage a few weeks ago and he has yet to step foot on Taris yet. At 32, he's been leveling through FPs ... PUG FPs. So far, so good. No big problems with the groups. A few additions to the Ignore list, but more attitude than incompetence. I plan to keep PUGing with this Sage until I can no longer tolerate it. My 55s run only with my Guilds (we have Republic and Imperial Guilds).

 

TL; DR: Tanking sucks; Tanks rule; Healing is wicked fun; PUGs are a crap shoot.

[SBJones]

You want to know why there is a shortage of tanks? Because it's a waste of our time to queue for you.

 

The reason everyone "sucks" at max level is because the game is designed for you to solo your way there with no other skill than facerolling the keyboard.

 

You're right, we are all in guilds with DPS and Healers who know how to play as a team.

Edited July 10, 2014 by SBJones

[DarthTHC]

I agree. As long as the items were desirable. Maybe just put a slot machine at the end of the FP that only the tank could use - it would spit out cartel coins, mounts, or whatever!

 

Can we put a machine in at the beginning of the flashpoint that issues a competency exam for all characters and automatically kicks and bans from GF for 24 hours those who don't pass the test for their role, including being properly geared and specced?

[wainot-keel]

I agree. As long as the items were desirable. Maybe just put a slot machine at the end of the FP that only the tank could use - it would spit out cartel coins, mounts, or whatever!

 

Those tokens for legacy gear

[Warrgames]

Can we put a machine in at the beginning of the flashpoint that issues a competency exam for all characters and automatically kicks and bans from GF for 24 hours those who don't pass the test for their role, including being properly geared and specced?

 

I would go back to tanking if they did this.

[Lotharofxev]

There are bads in every class and spec.

 

Tanks are not immune from it either. We have a well-geared Sorc healer in our guild who has kicked two tanks from her HM and finished the run with Treek.

 

I've seen (yesterday) 54 Marauders w/ 14k health and low 40's gear (double exp + KDY kid)

 

I've had people QUEUE as (Sorc) heals but never bubble. (Dead giveaway) Or attempt to heal using only one or two abilities.

 

Guild consensus: Either we are getting VERY familiar with our respective classes OR the quality of play has gone down.

[tharbison]

There are bads in every class and spec.

 

Amen! A tank in a recent group kept losing aggro. I checked their buffs, they weren't in tank stance. I asked them to switch to tank stance, and they said 'what's that'?!

 

lol

Edited July 10, 2014 by tharbison

[Warrgames]

There are bads in every class and spec.

 

There are bad players in ever spec, you are right.

But solo playing as tank or healer is the same as group playing a tank or healer.

Solo playing DPS is different than group playing as DPS.

 

Most of the complaints tanks have made here are about DPS not working as a group because DPS just mesh buttons with their forehead and think its a win.

[DrewFromPhilly]

Everyone complaining about terrible experiences that stopped from using GF at all I'm just gonna state the obvious here. If the only common factor between all of your supposedly terrible experiences is YOU what does that suggest? Let's put our thinking caps on here.

[tharbison]

Everyone complaining about terrible experiences that stopped from using GF at all I'm just gonna state the obvious here. If the only common factor between all of your supposedly terrible experiences is YOU what does that suggest? Let's put our thinking caps on here.

 

/votekick DrewFromPhilly

 

[Lotharofxev]

If the only common factor between all of your supposedly terrible experiences is YOU what does that suggest? Let's put our thinking caps on here.

 

Frustrated people who don't queue anymore?

 

It's the same mentality in WZs. Why should anybody subsidize (carry) bads who can't call out inc? So what happens? The frustrated player TRYING to do the right thing quits - leaving the bads to complete.

 

A simple mechanic to fix this is to make sure that no random WZ / FP "pop" includes people on your ignore list.

[dacentabaal]

I'm yet to do a single pug run on my tank... he is reserved for guild runs only because of all the flack tanks get from pugs group always blaming them etc

[DOHboy]

Everyone complaining about terrible experiences that stopped from using GF at all I'm just gonna state the obvious here. If the only common factor between all of your supposedly terrible experiences is YOU what does that suggest? Let's put our thinking caps on here.

 

means there are a LOT of really bad players out there.

 

If tanks can do HM ops and then go into a hm flashpoint and wipe due to others does that mean tank is bad?

I've had many good experiences on group finds, i've also had many BAD experiences as well. The bad ones don't justify the good ones anymore.

 

Guildies were trying to get a 16man SM ops going (had about 10 guildies and pugging a few DPS), had never done it before and was doing fine until bestia. Wiped first time followed by some pug DPS yelling "LEARN 2 TANK NOOB" I apologized to my guildies in guild chat and then swapped to my other char. Nobody even blinked an eye lash when I dropped. It just isn't worth the effort. Not saying we demand special treatment, just not to be treated like second class citizens when we perform what amounts to a service.

[Tsillah]

Everyone complaining about terrible experiences that stopped from using GF at all I'm just gonna state the obvious here. If the only common factor between all of your supposedly terrible experiences is YOU what does that suggest? Let's put our thinking caps on here.

 

What a dumb thing to say...seriously.

 

This is not a matter of opinion. When some dps constantly breaks cc, that's first of all not my fault and it's not an opinion. It's what happens and these things happen a lot. There are some basics that a lot of people don't seem to know and even though there are bad tanks and healers too, the reality is that especially a lot of dps think that shooting or hacking at stuff is all they have to do. Noticing that doesn't make it that I'm the problem.

 

The people speaking here probably all have done ops with their tanks and for you to make a statement like this is just silly.

[Warrgames]

Everyone complaining about terrible experiences that stopped from using GF at all I'm just gonna state the obvious here. If the only common factor between all of your supposedly terrible experiences is YOU what does that suggest? Let's put our thinking caps on here.

 

*Puts thinking cap on*

I don't use GF because DPS doesn't understand how to play in a group.

Other tanks have post the same thing here.

Therefore common factor here is DPS that doesn't understand how to group...

I'm so glad you came along to help us figure it out.....

Edited July 10, 2014 by Warrgames

[Vinak]

I've generally had good luck with my PUG queuing. But it is always discouraging running into That one guy

 

Don't be that guy and everything will be fine.

 

Both healing and tanking are made 10 times harder if your dps doesn't know how to play...and blames it on you.

[Uruare]

I used to tank in 55 hm's via group finder all the time, on both my juggernaut and my shadow. It's just not worth the headache to me anymore though, and the classes themselves aren't the problem.

 

Players that try to backseat tank and don't know what they're talking about are really. .. really. .. annoying. Dps that just go full retard at every opportunity, then blame the healer and me when they pull and we're paying no attention to things line oh, the sorc is resting to regen force? Utterly intolerable.

 

I once got into a GF run in which the healer was threatening to drop off he didn't get every bit of loot he wanted.

 

And my personal favorite? The dorks that snark off at me when I'm going 'anyone not know this fight?', then promptly demonstrate no knowledge of how the boss works and, often as not, lamely try to save face by saying that 'their Guilds does it like this'.

 

I don't even use GF much anymore because people are so damn dumb so damn frequently, and it's often my only option to do that content since I've never found a good guild doing such things at times that work for me.

 

I simply don't do that content anymore most of the time.

[Sorriku]

I main a 55 Assassin tank and have pretty much all but given up on GF HMs. It has ended up being a last resort if my guild is extremely slow one day. The main reason is people failing to communicate or listen to basic strategies.

 

When I did use GF regularly, I would always ask if it was anybodies first time in that FP or if they needed to know any of the mechanics. Maybe one out of 10 times I would get someone who actually admits to not knowing the fights, and I gladly explained the fights to them. A simple explanation takes far less time than wiping over and over again.

 

Sadly, most of the time, people never speak up and refuse to listen to basic commands or leave mobs CC'd. They end up failing at mechanics, waking up CC'd mobs, AoEing mobs away from me, and yet still complain about either the heals or the tanking. Too many DPS have a "my job is just to hurt enemies" mentality. They dont take the time to either learn fights or ask for help learning fights. They think they can just jump in there and spam attacks and the tank/healer will take care of EVERYTHING else. The sooner they realize how important it is to know what they are doing, the sooner they will actually have successful runs and possibly the sooner tanks/heals will use GF more often.

[MillionsKNives]

Everyone complaining about terrible experiences that stopped from using GF at all I'm just gonna state the obvious here. If the only common factor between all of your supposedly terrible experiences is YOU what does that suggest? Let's put our thinking caps on here.

 

My god, are you telling me that all of my experiences have me as a common factor? And here I thought sometimes my experiences were of other people.

 

And let's put our thinking caps on here for a moment. If a bunch of tanks come into a thread and complain and agree that bad DPS makes groupfinder painful then it's no longer just one person is it? Just stating the obvious.

Edited July 10, 2014 by MillionsKNives