Is it just me or is Marauder weak right now ?

[Ethern]

even under special circumstances your class has limitations, every class does, and nobody can possibly surpass the limitations of the class

 

plus, people in the "this class is broken" camp will also find themselves in the same sets of "special circumstances" as people who feel the class is fine

I can agree with the reasoning, but the results on the same encounters report so much discrepancies and take in account so many parameters, that in the end we have clearly different tendencies that obviously do not belong to the sole L2P issue.

Basically we have "subpar" results and "fine" results.

 

Applied to PvE

- One encounter will be more easily defeated with one spec, one strat, one companion, etc. it goes beyond the L2P parameters, provided that you are properly geared and follow a proper rotation. If there is one configuration that works and another that does not, there is obviously something that needs to be fixed.

 

Applied to PvP

There are so much more parameters to take in account:

- what is the team set up

- what is the gear you were wearing

- what is the level of your opponent, were they properly geared, used their abilities properly?

- what procs succeeded

- etc

 

I say so because many PvP videos submitted to prove that the marauder is fine in PvP were showing full champs geared marauders beating level 40+ ...

 

personally ... i feel the class is close to perfect, close ... but not quite there

 

im going to make another point here that soooo many people in the "this class is broken" camp dont seem to understand

 

one big argument for them is that "sure marauders can put out good damage, but BHs or sorcerers can put out just as much damage with much less effort"

 

and while that is true, it does not mean that marauders are broken

 

it means that sorcerers and BH are overpowered ... and yes, there absolutely is a difference

 

it SHOULD be difficult to put out loads of dps, marauders have a brilliant mix of effort to damage output, the problem is that BHs and sorcerers dont ... it should be harder for them to put out as much damage as they do, it shouldnt be easier for us

 

everyone that complains about marauders on this forum would be better served, and the game would be better served as well, if they started complaining that BHs and sorcs can put out damage too easily (not too much damage, thats not the problem, its the ease of damage output)basically, fix the PROBLEM not the side effects of the problem

On this point we can agree. That's precisely in comparison with those other classes that the term "broken" was brought - perhaps too strong and misused. Either way, something needs to change. And thus, to be fixed

We are indeed far more beyond a sole L2P issue.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Ethern

[VictorLototskyy]

And still, it's

.

[Warlordomega]

And still, it's

.

 

epic and no one can say **** cus its all 50s and when he went 1v2 they were 50's in gear

[pvtglass]

Wait... This isn't where I parked my car? OH WAIT, LOOK! NEERRRD FIIIIGHT!!! /popcorn

[CrazyAl]

I can agree with the reasoning, but the results on the same encounters report so much discrepancies and take in account so many parameters, that in the end we have clearly different tendencies that obviously do not belong to the sole L2P issue.

Basically we have "subpar" results and "fine" results.

 

Applied to PvE

- One encounter will be more easily defeated with one spec, one strat, one companion, etc. it goes beyond the L2P parameters, provided that you are properly geared and follow a proper rotation. If there is one configuration that works and another that does not, there is obviously something that needs to be fixed.

 

Applied to PvP

There are so much more parameters to take in account:

- what is the team set up

- what is the gear you were wearing

- what is the level of your opponent, were they properly geared, used their abilities properly?

- what procs succeeded

- etc

 

I say so because many PvP videos submitted to prove that the marauder is fine in PvP were showing full champs geared marauders beating level 40+ ...

 

On this point we can agree. That's precisely in comparison with those other classes that the term "broken" was brought - perhaps too strong and misused. Either way, something needs to change. And thus, to be fixed

We are indeed far more beyond a sole L2P issue.

 

i think your not quite understanding me here

 

in any pve situation, in any pvp situation, any spec, any gear level, any opponent, any wz, any boss, there are people on both sides of the fence

 

some look at the situation and say the class is broken, some look at the situation and say the class if fine

 

the exact same set of "special circumstances" are being applied to both groups of people

 

yes, there are videos of level 50s in champ gear chowing down on sub-50s and claiming "proof" that the class is fine (which, of course, is only proof that your level and gear are giving you a massive advantage)

 

but you also get levels 50s in champ gear fighting sub-50s saying that the class is broken (even though, as previously established, their gear and level are giving them a massive advantage)

 

the exact same situation is being seen as both "broken" and "fine" because some players arent as good as others

 

 

bad players see a class with imperfections as a broken class because the imperfections in the class highlight their imperfections as a player

 

but imperfections in a class only demonstrates that perfect class balance is impossible

 

not being perfect doesnt mean something is broken

 

needing tweaks or changes doesnt mean a class is weak

 

as talked about before, its less about overall damage output than it is about ease of damage output ... the learning/difficulty curve may need to be tweaked a bit in some places, but that doesnt imply that our class is weak

 

there is nothing WRONG with the marauder, its just not 100% right yet

 

and there is a big difference between being wrong, and being not right (as it applies to MMO class/game balance, at least)

[rufuscure]

Look the proof is written on every score board after every game. The class to be is bh, then trooper smuggler and agent - ranged classes. Inquisitor has us beat too, someone has to be the worst. At least we're good in pve.

[GhostHei]

Look the proof is written on every score board after every game. The class to be is bh, then trooper smuggler and agent - ranged classes. Inquisitor has us beat too, someone has to be the worst. At least we're good in pve.

 

I dunno ... maybe only in the games you play ... but in my wz i'm always pretty close to the top

[Draexnael]

epic and no one can say **** cus its all 50s and when he went 1v2 they were 50's in gear

 

You having a laugh? They don't use any of their abilities - 1 guy keeps trying to spam his channeled 3 second cast.. Seriously he was made to look good.

[Ethern]

i think your not quite understanding me here

 

in any pve situation, in any pvp situation, any spec, any gear level, any opponent, any wz, any boss, there are people on both sides of the fence

 

some look at the situation and say the class is broken, some look at the situation and say the class if fine

I understand you clearly.

 

the exact same set of "special circumstances" are being applied to both groups of people

Obviously not. Otherwise it would be easier to reach a consensus. They are special because they occur in precise and particular conditions. Those conditions have low probabilities to be met and they are independent of the skills of the players.

The problem is that the ones who claim the class is fine, it has been observed, have benefited from those particular parameters. It is therefore a mistake or misleading to scale the balance of the class according to them.

 

yes, there are videos of level 50s in champ gear chowing down on sub-50s and claiming "proof" that the class is fine (which, of course, is only proof that your level and gear are giving you a massive advantage)

 

but you also get levels 50s in champ gear fighting sub-50s saying that the class is broken (even though, as previously established, their gear and level are giving them a massive advantage)

 

the exact same situation is being seen as both "broken" and "fine" because some players arent as good as others

The point is none PvP video can provide solid proof that a class is fine and is working as intended. There are just way to much variables to take in account and we don't according to which criteria a class is considered as fine.

 

bad players see a class with imperfections as a broken class because the imperfections in the class highlight their imperfections as a player

That's not true. There are not thousands way to play marauder. There are not thousands specs, there are not thousands different rotations, there are not thousands different way to use your defensive CDs.

The demonstration I evoked relies on the observation that there is a discrepancy of results, going from subpar to fine, even though the class was played as intended.

Most of the fine results were obtained thanks to special circumstances ( luck with procs, with crit, buffs, etc) and no way those have to be the standards to set the balance.

 

but imperfections in a class only demonstrates that perfect class balance is impossible

 

not being perfect doesnt mean something is broken

 

needing tweaks or changes doesnt mean a class is weak

 

as talked about before, its less about overall damage output than it is about ease of damage output ... the learning/difficulty curve may need to be tweaked a bit in some places, but that doesnt imply that our class is weak

You mentioned the BH and the SI earlier as a comparison. In term of damage output we might be close indeed. But still the class has a clear disadvantage regarding the ease to release that much of damage.

That's your opinion, founded on the players' skill, but based on that raw data (BH only need 3 abilities to deal the same dps) we are disadvantaged, and thus weaker, if you add more parameters than damage (survavibility- range, etc)

Understand me well here: it's not because that the job can be done and is done, that it removes the weaker nature.

there is nothing WRONG with the marauder, its just not 100% right yet

 

and there is a big difference between being wrong, and being not right (as it applies to MMO class/game balance, at least)

That's contradictory. If it is 99% right, it is still wrong. The limitations or flaws that found the "being not right" are what make the class wrong. Does it mean that the class is unplayable? certainly no. But it still means that it is broken in a praticular domain.

I'll exaggerate, but the Marauder can still hit things, run, jump, etc,doing all the things other classes can do and thus it is functioning. However, in term of balance, functioning is not enough.

And that's currently the situation of the Marauder currently. It is functioning, and thus some think it is fine. The same that immediately recognize it needs tweaks and changes. That's contradictory on many levels.

[SiriusFett]

 

there is nothing WRONG with the marauder, its just not 100% right yet

 

and there is a big difference between being wrong, and being not right (as it applies to MMO class/game balance, at least)

 

After reading all this thread I have to agree here. Mara is not broken, just needs some tweaking. Ive played this class explicitly since closed beta. My impressions of the Mara in pvp (pve just works fine). With Mara its all about the right combos, and proper skill sets (anni spec, I don't know any others). Ive noticed now that in the higher levels with proper specs and skills Mara isnt all that bad in pvp, just needs tweaking. Spec/Class also depends highly on play style. You have to remember Mara isn't a tank you cant stand there and take massive dmg while dealing it out at the same time. The spec I have seems to be more of a run ,hit ,dots , immobilize, hits and run type. Quick in and out. Remember to use predation and crippling slash for e.g.

 

Although here are a few gripes:

 

1. Selection of Medium armor sets , are few to say the least. At lvl 40 for e.g the Jug has 2 different pvp sets to choose from, the Mara only 1 .. Also in general there seems to be less medium armor available from game vendors. This is a real hindrance and poor design for the class by BW imho.

 

2. Skills do not fire off as intended in pvp. Force Camouflage for e.g have to push it about 20 times until it goes off, although BW said they are looking into this issue with skill lag. Although to compare stealth on my assassin works fine no issues.. so no idea.

 

3.Attack cinematics are really slow some seem to take forever to initialize (deadly saber for example its a pain to activate in pvp better do it before running in on your enemy. because otherwise your already hit or stunned or dead) Also some other assault skills have long slow attack cinematics that make a hindrance in pvp.

 

4. Some skills have no stun / or immobilize effect as in pve ? I find this strange , force scream and smash for example could have a few second stun.. Smash is actually useless compared to the assassin smash with knockback effect.

 

There are definitely things in the class that need to be tweaked and looked at, but by no means is it broken or non playable in pvp.

[Crawfishies]

Whoever states (as a marauder) that "oh I top the charts in WZ"...........

 

I hope you don't say that in Huttball

Cause most of the ball handlers are not marauders.

 

Other classes have better CC, knockbacks, etc, so they

try to "score" (omg really? score in huttball?) rather than DPS,

so that's why they don't rank high in the damage in Huttball.

 

They see a marauder with the ball?, boom, you're dead.

 

Marauder is just plain not good in Huttball, which is unfortunately

80% of the Warzone games on my server.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Crawfishies

[EasymodeX]

That's not true. There are not thousands way to play marauder. There are not thousands specs, there are not thousands different rotations, there are not thousands different way to use your defensive CDs.

The demonstration I evoked relies on the observation that there is a discrepancy of results, going from subpar to fine, even though the class was played as intended.

Most of the fine results were obtained thanks to special circumstances ( luck with procs, with crit, buffs, etc) and no way those have to be the standards to set the balance.

 

Actually, there are a thousand ways to play a Marauder.

 

The fact that you cannot discern between them shows how [not]-good you are.

 

 

Relax, and go play another class that fits your playstyle better.

[Muffelito]

I am just a lvl 30 marauder, so i may not have so much to say in this thread but i'll give it a shot.

 

My friends are all sorcs, operatives, snipers and bh's. I've been watching them play, and all i can say is; It looks boring as hell.

 

I dont think you should go play a marauder if you whine about how underpowered it is. Do it because its fun and you will get pro in the end.

 

I've been doing a bit of PvP, both WZ's and outdoor. I've destroyed in outdoor PvP but in WZ's is kinda obvious i die because they focus me like 10 to 1. I dont complain, all classes would die 10 vs 1....

 

When i have a healer and we fight a fair fight, its so much fun i want to jack off right there.

 

 

So, my post may suck, but bottomline is, play the class for fun and you will get better.

[kraziwyld]

I'm a 50 anni spec marauder.

 

I have used vette the entire game. Never Quinn.

 

I have no problems taking down groups of mobs. rip through one group, charge another, repeat until almost dead, take a break and heal up.

 

In raids and hardmodes, the tank puts guard on me because I WILL throw so much DPS out that mobs prefer to eat me.

 

I am PVE specced, with no PVP gear. In warzones, I get crunched by better geared opponents. Opponents of similar gear, I tear through them faster than they can handle.

 

I picked this class for single target DPS. I pick my target, destroy my target, then look to whats next.

 

Yes, if things go wrong I die. I die quick. Medium armor is a crunchy candy shell around my gooey center. I accept this, so I don't place myself in situations where i have everything in the world trying to kill me.

 

Learn your rotation, use your CD's like it's no ones business. Pop your rellics, have stims and medpacs. You will need every advantage you can find. And then, once you are ready, pick your target carefully. In PVP, don't try and solo tanks. That's not your job. Find the healers or stray DPS, and make them hurt.

 

In huttball, don't pick up the ball. You don't have the survivability for it. Instead, kill the lurking sorc's/sages on the upper tiers. Find the lurking agents/smugglers, surprise them with death.

 

We are not heavy armor dual wielding engines of destruction. we are medium armor dual wielding precision instruments. Treat yourself as such.

[Sabbathius]

I have no problems taking down groups of mobs. rip through one group, charge another, repeat until almost dead, take a break and heal up.

 

Have you ever stopped and looked at how other classes solo the same content? It's a real eye-opener.

 

When you finish a pull, and you're taking a break and healing up, other classes end an identical pull with 90% health and pull the next one, and next one, and next one. And just keep on going. You seriously need to see what a good Sorcerer can do when he's not being lazy and utilizes all of his abilities. Most pulls finish with him and pet at 100%, and ready for the next one.

[EasymodeX]

I haven't seen a Sorc solo a level-2 heroic 4 mission.

[Sabbathius]

I haven't seen a Sorc solo a level-2 heroic 4 mission.

 

You can cherrypick scenarions, rare ones, where a Marauder is better. I can do it too. There's quite a few Heroic 4s that I did on my Sin in a fraction of time it takes a 4-man group to do it. I just stealthed to the boss and killed him. Done. Less than 5 mins, including travel. So what? Does that mean Sin is the best class in the game?

 

On average, a Sorc can do things no other class in the game can. Bubbles, heals, high damage, virtually bottomless resource and insane CC.

[EasymodeX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

I haven't seen a Sorc solo a level-2 heroic 4 mission.

You can cherrypick scenarions, rare ones, where a Marauder is better. I can do it too. There's quite a few Heroic 4s that I did on my Sin in a fraction of time it takes a 4-man group to do it. I just stealthed to the boss and killed him. Done. Less than 5 mins, including travel. So what? Does that mean Sin is the best class in the game?

 

I'm still waiting to see the Sorc solo a heroic 4. You know, by killing 4-5 packs of elite mobs with that bottomless healing resource, bubbles, and insane CC.

 

Cherrypick one for me.

[Dattebayo]

I personally wonder why people say not to run with the huttball. I personally find I am able to walk the ball from the middle to atleast the goal line in the pit for a pass before going down with no heals at all. I personally think because how our cooldowns are situated, we are better tanks than any other class in the game for the time our CD's our up. If you split the tanking CD's down, you have a solid 10-12 seconds of godliness amongst men.

 

Now if you cannot get people in position by the time your CD's are down, you squish like a IA. Also with the whole team beating on you, Predation is never down, making marauders one of the fastest ball carriers.

 

Saber Ward and Undying Rage is definitely bread and butter to survive and the other team will definitely think you are OP in the amount of time it takes to score.

 

With the PVP gear as well, it lowers Undying Rage to where it essentially is always up.

[AcaciaDragon]

I'm still waiting to see the Sorc solo a heroic 4. You know, by killing 4-5 packs of elite mobs with that bottomless healing resource, bubbles, and insane CC.

 

Cherrypick one for me.

 

I ran into a Sorc on Alderaan, level 31 I believe, and he was soloing that Area Heroic Quest for Fort Alde i think...the one where you have to kill people, then destroy the 3 shield generators, then kill a boss. He was doing it quite effortlessly, just mezzed one and kept picking off mobs, each pull was 3-4 elites.

[beaujames]

Last night I was able to complete my lvl 40 class quest line at level 37. I was killing level 40 golds, groups with level 40 silvers and died a minimal amount of times. I also did this as carnage spec. Utilize the freeze ability of Quinn and use your vanish to drop aggro to Quinn to regain health when you are getting hit like a truck.

 

My gear was not in the best shape and I was able to kill mobs that dropped greens that were higher level than I was. Marauders are very good at soloing, but you have to utilize all of the defense abilities. They will not roflstomp content like a sorceror will, but they can do it.

 

Rotate your defensive cooldowns...you have 4-5

 

Vanish if your getting low to give Quinn a chance to take some hits and heal you.

 

Interrupt Casts on harder mobs...these are the abilities that shred your life

 

Save your force choke for harder mobs to give Quinn a chance to heal some more.

 

On hard groups + weaks, tell Quinn to attack the hard mob so he will freeze it. This gives you enough time to kill a weak mob while the strong is CCed.

[EasymodeX]

I ran into a Sorc on Alderaan, level 31 I believe, and he was soloing that Area Heroic Quest for Fort Alde i think...the one where you have to kill people, then destroy the 3 shield generators, then kill a boss. He was doing it quite effortlessly, just mezzed one and kept picking off mobs, each pull was 3-4 elites.

 

This is convincing. Sorcs are clearly overpowered and need a nerf.

[Ethern]

Actually, there are a thousand ways to play a Marauder.

 

The fact that you cannot discern between them shows how [not]-good you are.

 

 

Relax, and go play another class that fits your playstyle better.

I question the value of such statements deprived of any back up or explanation. There are not thousands way to build rage or to activate saber ward or to gap close, or etc. I don't know how you can claim that you are playing a different class than th rest. Post videos rather, it worths thousands words.

 

Secondly, I'm not going anywhere. There is no other dual wielding Sith class, I leveled mine to 50, and I'm not alt-aholic at all. I like my marauder, but I don't take it as an excuse to claim it's perfect and does not need to be improved. My marauder has the right to faceroll the content as BHs and SI's do.

It's precisely because I like this class that I scream for seeing it buffed, instead of claiming it is fine or OP and risk to see a nerf of it in the future. You'd be blamed for that.

[EasymodeX]

There are not thousands way to build rage or to activate saber ward or to gap close, or etc.

 

Actually, there are hundreds of ways to build rage. As for saber ward, there are a half dozen ways to use saber ward. For closing the gap, probably two dozen.

 

When you multiply the hundreds of methods to build rage, with the multiple uses of saber ward, with the dozens of ways to close gaps, then you end up with thousands of ways to play the class -- nevermind the other dozen abilities you can use in a fight.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

 

The fact that you think there are a few set ways to build rage, and a few set ways to use your cooldowns ...

 

Well, we already covered that.

[Ethern]

Actually, there are hundreds of ways to build rage. As for saber ward, there are a half dozen ways to use saber ward. For closing the gap, probably two dozen.

 

When you multiply the hundreds of methods to build rage, with the multiple uses of saber ward, with the dozens of ways to close gaps, then you end up with thousands of ways to play the class -- nevermind the other dozen abilities you can use in a fight.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

 

The fact that you think there are a few set ways to build rage, and a few set ways to use your cooldowns ...

 

Well, we already covered that.

So you can build rage differently than with force charge, force choke, assault, battering assault, talented cloak, etc.

Enlighten us. Give me the name of those so many others hundred hidden abilities we have missed.

 

Do you realize by the way, that's only one small portion of the whole problem?

You quote me on one specific part and think that invalidates the whole.

I don't know which value to give to your reasoning, honestly. You were more explicit with your just L2P message.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Ethern