Broken.

[DarthTHC]

No doubt.

 

Do you posit that improved customer service or improved quality of product would have no noticeable affect on EA's bottom line?

 

I assume they've looked at the numbers and the cost of delivering good customer service outweighs the benefit of keeping the minuscule number of customers who leave because of bad experiences with customer service.

 

I assume they've looked at the numbers because I assume they're smart numbers people.

 

I assume the result of the analysis because I believe the customer service horror stories so obviously it's not a priority.

[Grayseven]

How did they "break a trust"?

 

I ask because at no time do I recall seeing a BW/EA post stating that there would be no changes ever to the CM packs, drop rates or rarity rates.

 

To break a trust, first a promise has to be given. The only given is the EA/BW is a business and as a business they will continue to explore different paradigms and experiment with the various game features.

 

This is the only promise anyone should expect from EA/BW, that they are a business and will do business things from time to time.

 

If this is "breaking the trust" to someone, well...welcome to the real world. To me, breaking trust is what WoW did with the "the Insane" title and what SWG did with the NGE.

[DarthTHC]

How did they "break a trust"?

 

I ask because at no time do I recall seeing a BW/EA post stating that there would be no changes ever to the CM packs, drop rates or rarity rates.

 

To break a trust, first a promise has to be given. The only given is the EA/BW is a business and as a business they will continue to explore different paradigms and experiment with the various game features.

 

This is the only promise anyone should expect from EA/BW, that they are a business and will do business things from time to time.

 

If this is "breaking the trust" to someone, well...welcome to the real world. To me, breaking trust is what WoW did with the "the Insane" title and what SWG did with the NGE.

 

BioWare established a pattern, an expectation, in how every single pack before this one behaved. That establishes a trust - a trust in the customers that future packs will behave similarly to past packs.

 

Humans are pattern recognition machines. That's what we do. We base expectations of future events upon past experiences. It is reasonable, rational, and a perfectly OK thing to do.

 

Then BioWare released packs with significantly different behavior than previous packs, and they knew they were doing it as an "experiment" per Eric's post on the topic, and said nothing about changes to the way this pack behaved.

 

That broke the trust.

 

SOE told us NGE was coming and gave some sort of a description what it would do. They did not violate a trust with NGE, but they sure did destroy the game with it.

Edited June 20, 2014 by DarthTHC

[NightEngine]

Thank you.

 

Help me out with something. When you say this:

 

How is it, that good customer service is NOT a sound business decision?

 

I worked for a number of years at a company that sells microchip testing equipment. Their customers were big foundries. Over the years they moved from a 100 million to 250 million to 600 million dollar company. Nice expansion.

 

In the late 90s they changed their tune as regards customer service, shifted from paying employees to handle customer service directly to a model of "train the customer to handle their own customer service".

 

This proved disastrous in the long haul, and by the time I left they had dropped down to 300 million, and lost some of their big-ticket foundries as paying customers.

 

I look at this, and I see good customer service as a stable datum not only for the Mom and Pop shops down the road, but the larger businesses as well.

 

Now, 300 million is still nothing to shake a stick at. And the CEO still made plenty of bank. And the company didn't go out of business. So it's not like they failed. But I still think it's fair to say that they would have made MORE money following the previously successful practice of increased customer service.

 

DarthTHC is pretty much correct in his replies, at least from my perspective.

 

But some things worth noting: training the customer to perform their own customer service is pretty common in the technology sector. Almost every business has an IT department. As an employee I don't call Dell when I have computer issues, I call the office that handles it for my company. I'm sure you know that, though.

 

The difference comes down to a tangible product versus a mostly virtual one.

 

Your average gamer doesn't see their purchases as terribly important. They buy the disc - or even more frequently a digital download - and that's the extent of their investment. As DarthTHC said, if it doesn't work or stops working, they've wasted up to $60 (usually) and nothing more than their time. This will burn a small number of players but EA's marketing accounts for that when they go through their studies for each and every title they release.

 

I'm sure there's a percentage on a whiteboard somewhere in their marketing department that represents the number of customers they expect to lose, versus the number of customers they expect to gain and keep, respectively. The fact is, because their business model revolves around such figures, they can eat that loss and just not care.

 

In many ways, gamers themselves share responsibility for polluting the gaming industry. There's only so much a big company like EA can do for them and at some point, as the complaints pile up, they see little impact on their annual reports and shrug at it. They get a bad product or have a bad experience but continue to give them money later. Consumers also have very unrealistic expectations regarding customer service...

 

I'm an offender. As I said before, I swore to never give Bioware or EA money, yet I've subscribed to SW TOR.

 

All that said, I'm sure there are things EA could do to cut costs and improve customer service and engender positive PR. I think that eliminating DRM could do both. Even if the DRM design and implementation is in-house, it's still a cost they don't actually need. But good luck convincing companies who are told (by people who have something at stake by doing so) they're losing millions to piracy that their DRM protocols aren't justified.

Edited June 20, 2014 by NightEngine

[MSchuyler]

BW is simply responding to the idiocy of its customer base. Why would anyone BUY an emote? Think about it. What does it DO for you? "Oh, I'm chilly!" Wow! Clap, clap, clap. I am so impressed. Does it increase your health or armor? Nope. Does it make you go faster? Nope. Does it have any positive physical effect in the game (other than showing off you are chilly, I mean.)? Nope.

 

It's a stupid emote. The only real thing to do with it if you accidentally get it is store it if you have ample room, or sell it on the GTN because there really are idiots who will buy it.

[NightEngine]

BW is simply responding to the idiocy of its customer base. Why would anyone BUY an emote? Think about it. What does it DO for you? "Oh, I'm chilly!" Wow! Clap, clap, clap. I am so impressed. Does it increase your health or armor? Nope. Does it make you go faster? Nope. Does it have any positive physical effect in the game (other than showing off you are chilly, I mean.)? Nope.

 

It's a stupid emote. The only real thing to do with it if you accidentally get it is store it if you have ample room, or sell it on the GTN because there really are idiots who will buy it.

 

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

The game's not all about stats. If that's what you spring bucks for, so be it, but not everyone does.

 

In fact, almost everything from the CM is cosmetic, and that's the way it should be. Buying an advantage with real money is unfair and where the term 'pay to win' comes from.

[Khevar]

@Night, thanks for your comments on this. I do follow what you're saying here.

I'm an offender. As I said before, I swore to never give Bioware or EA money, yet I've subscribed to SW TOR.

I'm guilty of the same. I was (and still am) in disagreement with the implementation of "loot bag cartel packs", as opposed to direct sales of gear without RNG. I was also in disagreement with selling things on the CM that impeded crafting (I'm referring here specifically to the sale of Heroic spaceship gear -- I think it was patch 1.6?).

 

And yet, I'm still here and still subbed. Doesn't exactly send a message to EA, does it?

All that said, I'm sure there are things EA could do to cut costs and improve customer service and engender positive PR. I think that eliminating DRM could do both. Even if the DRM design and implementation is in-house, it's still a cost they don't actually need. But good luck convincing companies who are told (by people who have something at stake by doing so) they're losing millions to piracy that their DRM protocols aren't justified.

True that.

 

There's also something I've seen happen in most companies I've been a part of, which is "hating on the customer." It's easy to do. Work in retail, and get yelled at by another self-absorbed $^%@# for making them the drink that they asked for, rather than the one they were thinking about and didn't say. Work in marketing, and do a beautiful website for a client, but then have to replace it with a terrible one that their son's girlfriend's dog walker's cousin did. Eventually, you can begin to hate your customers.

 

I wouldn't be but a bit surprised if the people in charge of making DRM decisions at EA think that all gamers are criminal psychopaths that would rather stab the postman than pay money for a game.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Khevar

[Grayseven]

BioWare established a pattern, an expectation, in how every single pack before this one behaved. That establishes a trust - a trust in the customers that future packs will behave similarly to past packs.

 

Humans are pattern recognition machines. That's what we do. We base expectations of future events upon past experiences. It is reasonable, rational, and a perfectly OK thing to do.

 

Then BioWare released packs with significantly different behavior than previous packs, and they knew they were doing it as an "experiment" per Eric's post on the topic, and said nothing about changes to the way this pack behaved.

 

That broke the trust.

 

SOE told us NGE was coming and gave some sort of a description what it would do. They did not violate a trust with NGE, but they sure did destroy the game with it.

 

Assumptions. People assumed things would always be the same, and we all know assumptions are the fault of the assumer, not the assumee.

 

If you assume things will always be the same you are making an assumption that flies in the face of any MMO experience a person has. There will always be change. You might not like it, but it will happen. If you are lucky and enough people don't like it, the change might not happen or might be reversed.

 

Ultimately, it is the assumers fault for assuming things wouldn't change. If you have an expectation based solely on your own assumption, it is entirely your fault when that expectation is shattered. No one else is responsible for your thought or belief.

 

Again, if a trust was broken it was only because people saw a promise where none was given. Your fault, not EA/BW. I will shed no tears over your false assumptions.

 

And SOE broke the trust when they announced the NGE the day after people purchased ToOW. Prior to that, there was no announcement that the game would be changing. Many people were outraged at this "bait and switch" and while SOE never admitted wrong-doing they were quick to offer refunds. I was one of those that took the refund and uninstalled the game, since WoW did WoW better than SWG did.

[Shoraan]

Assumptions. People assumed things would always be the same, and we all know assumptions are the fault of the assumer, not the assumee.

 

If you assume things will always be the same you are making an assumption that flies in the face of any MMO experience a person has. There will always be change. You might not like it, but it will happen. If you are lucky and enough people don't like it, the change might not happen or might be reversed.

 

Ultimately, it is the assumers fault for assuming things wouldn't change. If you have an expectation based solely on your own assumption, it is entirely your fault when that expectation is shattered. No one else is responsible for your thought or belief.

 

Again, if a trust was broken it was only because people saw a promise where none was given. Your fault, not EA/BW. I will shed no tears over your false assumptions.[...]

 

Sorry, but that argument only holds true, if the change was announced. Of course we all expect changes in an MMO. But not if the change is not announced and costs real money.

 

Just imagine the following scenario:

With patch 2.8.1 every lost Ranked PvP match will result in 5$ deducted in addition to your next subscription fee.

It would be a ridiculous idea, yet, as long as they notified player, before they jumped into a match, it would still be fair. Silly indeed, but fair.

 

I am not complaining so much about the change itself. I am complaining about the fact that they didn't anounce it. (I am not even directly affected, because for some unknown reason I haven't bought any of the new packs yet.)

What this change does is teaching me to wait a few weeks the next time a new pack comes out before I buy packs, because I don't know what I'll get for my money.

[OddballEasyEight]

BW is simply responding to the idiocy of its customer base. Why would anyone BUY an emote? Think about it. What does it DO for you? "Oh, I'm chilly!" Wow! Clap, clap, clap. I am so impressed. Does it increase your health or armor? Nope. Does it make you go faster? Nope. Does it have any positive physical effect in the game (other than showing off you are chilly, I mean.)? Nope.

 

It's a stupid emote. The only real thing to do with it if you accidentally get it is store it if you have ample room, or sell it on the GTN because there really are idiots who will buy it.

 

Well now... if it did make you go faster or increase your health or armour it would be Pay 2 Win and that's something most people here doesn't want.

 

People buy cosmetic items because of the same reason they buy a bowtie or a fancy pair of sunglasses. They buy it for the looks.

[NightEngine]

My very simple point remains: if you put trust in a company whose primary concern is generating revenue then you are also accepting the risk. No patterns or any amount of repetition should let you become too trusting.

 

Remember, it's revenue first, video games second.

 

Also as I said originally, that Bioware says they heard us and are changing the next pack to be more in line with previous packs means that this entire ordeal is a net positive.

[DarthTHC]

Assumptions. People assumed things would always be the same, and we all know assumptions are the fault of the assumer, not the assumee.

 

We assumed BioWare would tell us up front if they made any significant changes. You know, the sort of thing a business does when it respects its customers?

 

If you assume things will always be the same you are making an assumption that flies in the face of any MMO experience a person has. There will always be change. You might not like it, but it will happen. If you are lucky and enough people don't like it, the change might not happen or might be reversed.

 

Say you went to a gas station and the price per gallon always read ?.??. Say you bought gas 17 times in a row at that gas station and the price that showed up when you finished buying the gas was always between 3.45 and 3.75. Say the 18th time, the price was 6.79.

 

Perfectly fair, right?

 

No, businesses don't get to do that stuff and not irk customers. Customers have the right to feel disrespected, unappreciated, and even "done dirty" when that happens.

 

Ultimately, it is the assumers fault for assuming things wouldn't change. If you have an expectation based solely on your own assumption, it is entirely your fault when that expectation is shattered. No one else is responsible for your thought or belief.

 

Or it's the business's fault for not telling its customers about what effectively is a price change.

 

Again, if a trust was broken it was only because people saw a promise where none was given. Your fault, not EA/BW. I will shed no tears over your false assumptions.

 

You misunderstand how business works. EA will get away with it because they're big enough to absorb the loss, and because maybe BioWare will do something to make it right.

 

But that doesn't mean what they did was a good, fair business practice.

 

My very simple point remains: if you put trust in a company whose primary concern is generating revenue then you are also accepting the risk. No patterns or any amount of repetition should let you become too trusting.

 

Remember, it's revenue first, video games second.

 

Also as I said originally, that Bioware says they heard us and are changing the next pack to be more in line with previous packs means that this entire ordeal is a net positive.

 

Not really. It just means we need to be continually wary for the next spot they want to "experiment" with how to use deception and obfuscation, rather than improving their product, to extract dollars from us.

Edited June 20, 2014 by DarthTHC

[aeterno]

Not a chance. Legacy unlocks have always been too expensive. Now they're way too expensive.

 

You guys are falling into the casino chip trap. Treating it like it's not money.

 

When you see the green chip, you think, "Green chip," not "$25".

 

You need to start seeing 450 cartel coins as $4.50 and 600 cartel coins as $6.00.

 

That really is relative.

 

Before legacy unlock system no other game had anything of the sort.

 

If this pricing scheme was introduced from the get go there wouldn't be an uproar like the one now. It was incredibly dumb on BWs part to mess with the "standard" their customer base grew accustomed to like that but it can't be denied it wouldn't at all be surprising that someone in BW would look at the system and went "wth were we thinking we could be making a lot more money with this".

 

However much 600cc is dollar wise you still get unlimited amounts of an item for any and all alts for it. You can't deny that's a pretty sweet gig when the established alternative from other games would be having to buy it for each toon you want it on. Like I said, it was dumb on the part of BW to try and lower the service they were providing which people were naturally very happy with for good reason, but you can see why they did it, it is a good bang for buck service and the temptation to get more buck for the bang would be there for any developer. sadly.

Edited June 20, 2014 by aeterno

[DarthVitrial]

What I want to know is this: Would it be possible for Bioware to go back and adjust the collection unlock prices of the current pack without annoying people that already bought the unlock? (Assuming no refunds for people that already bought the unlock)

Or would it be better if they left the prices as they currently are, despite the current prices being overpriced?

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Sure as **** don't see the big problem here. I've been able to buy everything I wanted for DIRT cheap off the GTN. I don't give a **** how they make their money as long as the servers stay on.

[DarthTHC]

Sure as **** don't see the big problem here. I've been able to buy everything I wanted for DIRT cheap off the GTN. I don't give a **** how they make their money as long as the servers stay on.

 

How much is the Xoxaan’s Armor Set Chest Piece selling for on your server?

 

How about the Tropical Orobird? Dathomir Rancor? Vectron TM-22 Volo

 

What do you consider "dirt cheap" for a chest-piece and mount?

[OddballEasyEight]

What I want to know is this: Would it be possible for Bioware to go back and adjust the collection unlock prices of the current pack without annoying people that already bought the unlock? (Assuming no refunds for people that already bought the unlock)

Or would it be better if they left the prices as they currently are, despite the current prices being overpriced?

 

It's debatable either way.

But I doubt that it would cause more damage to change them than it already has by making them this high...

[ZETA_SCORPII]

How much is the Xoxaan’s Armor Set Chest Piece selling for on your server?

 

How about the Tropical Orobird? Dathomir Rancor? Vectron TM-22 Volo

 

What do you consider "dirt cheap" for a chest-piece and mount?

 

**** if I know, I didn't want that set. I bought a Rancor for 5.2 mil and the Volo was @ 350K.

Keep rare **** rare is what I always say. If you can't afford it, you don't get to have it.

[OddballEasyEight]

**** if I know, I didn't want that set. I bought a Rancor for 5.2 mil and the Volo was @ 350K.

Keep rare **** rare is what I always say. If you can't afford it, you don't get to have it.

 

But the problem here was that stuff that wasn't supposed to be rare, was...

The common "filler" sets are never very rare. But in this pack the top chests were super rare for most of the packs, while the lower and supplementary crates were super-mega-common...

[NightEngine]

But the problem here was that stuff that wasn't supposed to be rare, was...

The common "filler" sets are never very rare. But in this pack the top chests were super rare for most of the packs, while the lower and supplementary crates were super-mega-common...

 

It was supposed to be rare, though, Eric said so.

[Nickious]

**** if I know, I didn't want that set. I bought a Rancor for 5.2 mil and the Volo was @ 350K.

Keep rare **** rare is what I always say. If you can't afford it, you don't get to have it.

 

Damn, I was looking for a cheap rancor mount on GTN on Harbinger. Wish I had caught that at 5.2. Kind of wish I had bit on 6 million but I was looking for cheaper.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

But the problem here was that stuff that wasn't supposed to be rare, was...

The common "filler" sets are never very rare. But in this pack the top chests were super rare for most of the packs, while the lower and supplementary crates were super-mega-common...

 

Good! More credits for those who have them and sell them on the GTN.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Damn, I was looking for a cheap rancor mount on GTN on Harbinger. Wish I had caught that at 5.2. Kind of wish I had bit on 6 million but I was looking for cheaper.

 

About 30 mins ago it was @ 7 mil.

[Sorei]

What I want to know is this: Would it be possible for Bioware to go back and adjust the collection unlock prices of the current pack without annoying people that already bought the unlock? (Assuming no refunds for people that already bought the unlock)

Or would it be better if they left the prices as they currently are, despite the current prices being overpriced?

 

Well, I for one would forgive them if they did this (as long as the next pack really is more in line with the previous ones). I will have to sub again either way next month, but atm I don't feel like getting a 6 month recurring subscription as I had before this mess.

With regards to my personal consumer satisfaction it would be a good move. Those who bought them might be very upset, though. The question is, which group is bigger / more significant? (I don't know)

 

Edit: Doing so would equal admitting it was a mistake and I doubt they would do so regarding their statement on this pack.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Sorei

[Andryah]

Damn, I was looking for a cheap rancor mount on GTN on Harbinger. Wish I had caught that at 5.2. Kind of wish I had bit on 6 million but I was looking for cheaper.

 

Heh... yeah. The stable price for the Rancor appears to have settled in at 7-7.5 on Harbinger.

 

Remember the first Varactyl? Or the first Dewback? I expect we will see more Rancors coming.... probably even one or two that are direct CM buys. Time will come when you cannot swing a womp rat in game without hitting someones Rancor mount in the face.

 

TL;DR wait a bit... and even better variants of the Rancor will show themselves in the game.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Andryah