Rusah Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 As the title says, tho the gear drops are still the same as before, we only get 4 elites per boss after the groupfinder changes. That is a loss of 4 ultimate and 2 elite per boss, which adds up to over a full run: S&V - 28 ultimate and 14 elite lost. TFB, DF, DP - 20 ultimate and 10 elites lost. Is this as planned or is it bugged, that is a very huge loss of comms after the patch. Since gear was kept at the current level, can't the comms be too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tachenko_Yuri Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 8 man op bosses are giving what they were giving before the botched attempt at 16 man gf stuff. Since everything has been reverted, boss loot has been reverted also. P.S for the bw people : by the way in the group finder itself it still says " story mode operations ( 16 players ) " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwarsarsonall Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Here is what you can get for 16 man SM with weekly and without group finder bonus. TFB 32 Ults SnV 40 Ults DF 36 Ults DP 36 Ults Now depending on the operation 8 man can be a lot harder. Also much harder to carry new players. Even if someone is bolstered they have to learn the fights. This is what you get in GF plus weekly in 8 man. TFB 42 Ults SnV 42 Ults DF 46 Ults DP 46 Ults Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusah Posted June 13, 2014 Author Share Posted June 13, 2014 Thanx for the reply's and the info. Disappointing, but what can you do. I've played plenty of other mmo games that could support groups that large, if ea/bioware's hardware bugs out on things like that, they seriously need to look into buying new equipment. If not they are going to start falling behind other games that have the hardware to offer things like this and will most likely end up loosing customers. This is the first mmo i have played who's servers have cracked under large group queuing, every other i game have played with group queuing for large player raiding handled it just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 if ea/bioware's hardware bugs out on things like that, they seriously need to look into buying new equipment. It is probably a software algorithm with high-order space and/or time complexity causing the problem, and if so, hardware upgrades won't help. See this wiki article for a starting point on algorithmic complexity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urantia Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Here is what you can get for 16 man SM with weekly and without group finder bonus. TFB 32 Ults SnV 40 Ults DF 36 Ults DP 36 Ults Now depending on the operation 8 man can be a lot harder. Also much harder to carry new players. Even if someone is bolstered they have to learn the fights. This is what you get in GF plus weekly in 8 man. TFB 42 Ults SnV 42 Ults DF 46 Ults DP 46 Ults Sadly I just Qed up for 8-man DF and did not get the 30 comms. No one in my group did and we all used finder and used GF travel to get there. So something seems broken today. Bolster also seemed to add nothing to my toon today. Maybe just that toon, but rolled in with better geared toons and they got bolstered yesterday...so maybe a fix on that....since none of mine would need it to begin with. {probably that it was 8-man and the bolster is even lower?} Edited June 13, 2014 by Urantia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnAskham Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) It is probably a software algorithm with high-order space and/or time complexity causing the problem, and if so, hardware upgrades won't help. See this wiki article for a starting point on algorithmic complexity. I could care less about the level complexity required, as that isn't the problem. The problem is the competence or lack thereof on the part of the SWTOR dev team in managing such complexity. With all the bugs the past several days, I took another one of my several times a year 10 day free trials to that other big MMO. There I was able to queue for MULTIPLE 25 player raids AND random dungeons AND random scenarios ALL at the same time, and it worked just fine while pulling players from across ALL servers. Not only that, but the queue would show the estimated wait time along with details on which roles had already been matched, as well as chain the various events such that my first queue popped for a scenario, then popped for a dungeon when the scenario was done, then for a raid when my dungeon was done. Contrast that to what we have in TOR where the system can't seem to handle queuing multiple events at the same time (once one event pops, you are dropped from all other event queues), can't manage population across servers, can't handle 16 player events, nor can it provide visibility into queue wait times. Anyways if they can't figure out how to make a basic 16 player queue work, the least they could do is to have 8 player events provide the same rewards. It never made sense to me anyway that 16 could be much more forgiving, and thus easier, and yet provided more rewards. And it certainly doesn't make sense if the chance of success is lower in 8 player as the majority will just go back to using trade chat to form pug 16 man groups, in which case the whole GF / Bolstered Operations 'feature' added in this patch was a total waste of development resources. Edited June 13, 2014 by DawnAskham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I could care less about the level complexity required, as that isn't the problem. The problem is the competence or lack thereof on the part of the SWTOR dev team in managing such complexity. This is not "complexity" in the "it has a lot of lines of code that all interact with each other" sense, this is the inherent complexity of the problem the code is trying to solve: will it require, for example, at least polynomial time to solve on a deterministic Turing machine, or at least exponential time to solve on a non-deterministic Turing machine? That latter, BTW, would be a very very complex problem indeed. This is graduate-level CompSci stuff people write PhD thesi about, not something a programmer might learn at the ITT Technical Institute. No amount of competency can transform, for example, a problem with O(n^2) time complexity on a deterministic Turing machine into anything simpler and therefore faster. However, a working non-deterministic Turing machine, like a quantum computer if anyone ever manages to build one, would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 8 man op bosses are giving what they were giving before the botched attempt at 16 man gf stuff. Since everything has been reverted, boss loot has been reverted also. P.S for the bw people : by the way in the group finder itself it still says " story mode operations ( 16 players ) " Well, that's odd, because: Quote: Originally Posted by Yaanos View Post Hi Tait, Is it just the group size you're reducing, or is it the rewards and the rolling ops schedule? i.e. are you rolling back to pre 2.8? Thanks, Giga It is just the group size that is being reduced. http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7478687&postcount=323 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tachenko_Yuri Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Well, that's odd, because: Guess it doesn't matter right now, since for entering Group finder for The Dread Fortress, I got an astonishing 16 ults ( from cashing in the weekly ) No boss loot ( not that I was expecting any ults in 8 man ops bosses ) And most importantly : 0 ults from downing brontes. Not 30, not 10, none, nil, nada, nein. And group finder has still written 16 players story mode operations, with a reward of 30 ults, just lol. Edited June 13, 2014 by Tachenko_Yuri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 As the title says, tho the gear drops are still the same as before, we only get 4 elites per boss after the groupfinder changes. That is a loss of 4 ultimate and 2 elite per boss, which adds up to over a full run: S&V - 28 ultimate and 14 elite lost. TFB, DF, DP - 20 ultimate and 10 elites lost. Is this as planned or is it bugged, that is a very huge loss of comms after the patch. Since gear was kept at the current level, can't the comms be too? 8man never gave ultimate comms. 16 man has always rewarded more, and with the original plan it was going to reward even more. It's ridiculous the discrepancy between the two game modes. They should both give equal rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naldoran Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 What I love is how they originally assigned 16m ops greater rewards (ultimates) because they were more challenging content, then turn around and say that they're doing 16m group finder because it's an easier entry for new players to the world of ops. On paper, 16m group finder ops aren't a bad idea, but the reward system needs to be straightened out a bit I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 What I love is how they originally assigned 16m ops greater rewards (ultimates) because they were more challenging content. Disagree. I think they gave 16m higher per-player rewards to encourage people to go to the extra effort of forming 16m groups instead of 8m groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Disagree. I think they gave 16m higher per-player rewards to encourage people to go to the extra effort of forming 16m groups instead of 8m groups. Yes. Even though I know 16-man ends up being easier, I hate forming them and prefer to just stick with 8. Not to mention it's less laggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusah Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) Regardless of the issues with coding such things, many other mmo's have successfully implemented group queuing for groups 16man or larger, so despite the complexity is is clearly very possible so it boils down to one of two things. 1. Their hardware can't support such coding, in which case i refer to my original point that they need to upgrade to keep up to the times. 2. They need to hire coders with a more advanced level of knowledge of this type of complex code in order to do it, again if not they are going to fall behind other games. Be it a hardware or coding issue, other games have proven that it is possible, this game can't handle things that are becoming standard in more and more mmo games. EA/Bioware need to step up, be it with better hardware or by expanding their staff with people that can handle the coding complexity. Be it hardware, software or coding, it is fixable with either the right hardware upgrades, or hiring people with the right skills. As time goes on more things that are becoming standard in other games are going to lack here because it isn't possible due to hardware/software/coding issues. This is merely a symptom of a much larger problem that is headed this games way. They need to expand their capabilities before this game looks so limited compared to others that they start loosing too much business. Edited June 14, 2014 by Rusah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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