Next round of class questions: Issue Roundup

[GrandLordMenace]

With our class questions now passed and the new ones slowly coming up eventually, I wanted to assemble a list of significant issues to the Jedi Guardian DPS and Tank trees. These are the ones I have in mind:

 

Guardian Tank Opening Threat/Saber Reflect Bug:

 

As of right now, it was assumed that Guardian Opening Tank threat was fine, and it would be, if Saber Reflect wasn't bugged. Below are the notes from a guildy of mine, LuckyGunslinger, on the bug:

 

 

So, I was talking in allies today about Reflect and Threat. I noticed that in some pulls, I would still get pulled off of by my trusty Operative even with my usual opener with Reflect Thrown in once the fight begins.

 

Daunting Presence:

Force Leap has a [50 / 100]% chance to finish the cooldown on Force Kick. In addition, Saber Reflect lasts [1 second / 2 seconds] longer and generates a high amount of threat on all engaged enemies within 30 meters when activated.

 

00:43:53.291 Artorias enters combat.

00:43:53.337 Artorias activates Force Charge.

00:43:53.337 Artorias loses Sprint.

00:43:53.339 Artorias gains 3 rage point.

00:43:54.235 Artorias's Force Charge critically hits Nefra, Who Bars the Way for 1206* energy damage, causing 2412 threat!

00:43:54.917 Artorias activates Smash.

00:43:54.918 Artorias spends 3 rage point.

00:43:54.918 Artorias's Quake adds effect Accuracy Reduced (Force) to Nefra, Who Bars the Way.

00:43:54.918 Artorias's Crushing Fist adds effect Armor Reduced to Nefra, Who Bars the Way.

00:43:54.918 Artorias's Smash hits Nefra, Who Bars the Way for 1468 kinetic damage, causing 3378 threat.

00:43:55.446 Brei'yu's Kolto Probe adds effect Kolto Probe to Artorias.

00:43:55.499 Artorias activates Saber Reflect.

00:43:55.499 Artorias gains Saber Reflect.

00:43:56.532 Artorias activates Crushing Blow.

00:43:56.532 Artorias spends 3 rage point.

00:43:56.533 Artorias gains Crushing Blow.

 

No Threat Gen. The Fight has been 'engaged' Nefra has not hit me. However, later on in the SAME parse, after Nefra has of course hit me.

 

00:45:07.598 Artorias's Force Push hits Nefra, Who Bars the Way for 1340 kinetic damage, causing 2680 threat.

00:45:07.803 Brei'yu's Kolto Infusion heals Artorias for 604.

00:45:07.919 Artorias activates Saber Reflect.

00:45:07.919 Artorias gains Saber Reflect.

00:45:07.920 Artorias's Saber Reflect causes 8592 threat gain on Nefra, Who Bars the Way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And here's one more for measure. Same deal, No damage taken yet, but combat is engaged and Tyrans is targeting me

 

01:54:03.495 Artorias enters combat.

01:54:03.508 Artorias loses Sprint.

01:54:03.520 Artorias's Saber Throw hits Dread Master Tyrans for 1377 energy damage, causing 2754 threat.

01:54:03.582 Artorias activates Saber Reflect.

01:54:03.582 Artorias gains Saber Reflect.

01:54:04.167 Healingdarkness's Static Barrier adds effect Static Barrier to Artorias.

01:54:04.168 Healingdarkness's Static Barrier adds effect Deionized to Artorias.

01:54:04.169 Artorias activates Enrage.

01:54:04.385 Artorias gains 3 rage point.

01:54:04.576 Healingdarkness's Static Barrier effect of Static Barrier fades from Artorias.

01:54:04.576 Artorias gains Focused Defense.

01:54:04.666 Artorias parries Dread Master Tyrans's Shock, causing 1 threat.

01:54:04.576 Artorias gains Focused Defense.

01:54:04.666 Artorias parries Dread Master Tyrans's Shock, causing 1 threat.

01:54:04.667 Dread Master Tyrans's Shock hits Artorias for 2572 energy damage, causing 2572 threat. (2572 absorbed)

01:54:04.667 Dread Master Tyrans's Shock hits Artorias for 2572 energy damage, causing 2572 threat. (2572 absorbed)

01:54:04.667 Dread Master Tyrans's Shock hits Artorias for 2572 energy damage, causing 2572 threat. (1430 absorbed)

 

 

and later on in the same fight.

 

 

01:58:08.751 Dread Master Tyrans's Shock hits Artorias for 2346 energy damage, causing 2346 threat.

01:58:08.919 Artorias's Vicious Throw critically hits Dread Master Tyrans for 3789* energy damage, causing 7578 threat!

01:58:09.730 Artorias activates Saber Reflect.

01:58:09.730 Artorias gains Saber Reflect.

01:58:09.731 Artorias's Saber Reflect causes 8592 threat gain on Dread Master Tyrans.

 

 

What this means is, Guardian's only threat generating crutch is only useful after the opening stage of a fight is over which is the only shaky threat generating part. I'll look into it some more before making a forum post.

 

 

The gist of the bug is, until the tank is hit, Saber Reflect does NOT generate any threat. Due to boss swingtimers, bosses usually won't hit the tank until a few GCDs later, enough time for a more frontloaded burst DPS to pull right off the tank. This is inexcusable, no other tank has this issue. Bioware either needs to fix the bug, or shift it to another ability, most likely saber throw, to allow for Guardians to have a high threat opening.

 

Issue Number 2: Vigilance Guardian will be the only Melee DPS class without one tree with AOE DR next patch. While Guardian DCD's are great, some would say overpowered, our passive survivability is sorely lacking. With this change, our survivability would be increased against everything but Focus Fire.

 

Focus: Both Jedi Guardian DPS trees are somewhat behind other classes as of right now. Vigilance, as a sustained DPS spec with light burst, is doing a fairly noticeable amount of DPS less than other sustained DPS specs on a dummy, and considering it's reliance on a melee channel, is somewhat absurd. Given that there are other classes with more mobility AND more sustained DPS, are there any plans to make MINOR sustained damage buffs to the Vigilance Guardian? These buffs would be limited to Damage over Time effects.

Anyone have other concerns or issues?

Edited June 19, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[Manweth]

Vigilance falling behind in DPS in respect to every other AC, -again-.

 

This is a serious issue. All ACs will have one viable spec that will trump Vigilance, which is best in numbers of Guardian, and Focus Guardian is still worse than Focus Sentinels.

 

Overall, being made bottom of the barrel again.

 

Tbh, lack of AOE DR never really bothered me, but if tactics vanguards have it, we deserve it as well. Well, maybe a little less than everyone else, but still.

[TACeMossie]

Vigilance falling behind in DPS in respect to every other AC, -again-.

 

This is a serious issue. All ACs will have one viable spec that will trump Vigilance, which is best in numbers of Guardian, and Focus Guardian is still worse than Focus Sentinels.

 

Overall, being made bottom of the barrel again.

 

Tbh, lack of AOE DR never really bothered me, but if tactics vanguards have it, we deserve it as well. Well, maybe a little less than everyone else, but still.

 

To be fair, the only spec a tactics VG out-dps's is a Focus Sentinel (guardians do better), and in a recent live stream with Rob, he said 2.9 is going to look at Focus spec in general, among other things (sage healers, Deception Spec, and I believe Rollbang was also on the list).

 

However, I wouldn't mind seeing Narrowed Focus get AoE reduction added in (stance tied of course - dont want overpowered tank hybrids)

 

Speaking of this thread, once I've played around with patch 2.8 vanguards I might get started on one for them as well. I can come up with 2 questions at least (shield spec in PvE is the least desired tank because of a lack of cooldowns and inferior passive survivability when played correctly, and tactics outright sucks without multiple targets - the only reason it worked for the world first NiM brontes kill was because he wasn't there to do damage, but rather stop brontes from running around).

Edited June 7, 2014 by TACeMossie

[GrandLordMenace]

I wouldn't say we are bottom of the barrel as there are Vigi guardians doing almost 4k ATM, but those are non leaderboard parses and aren't completely verified (saw one with an 11k force scream).

 

I think we may need more sustained DPS but until 2.8 drops we won't know for sure. I do think the threat of tanks in general needs help, especially guardians now that we know our opener is literally the ****.

 

I'd also like to note that many classes that excell on the 1million dummy only do so because they can perform timed burnouts that by the end of a parse, lead to them with 0 energy. These tactics are far less feasible on a 1.5 million dummy due to the duration.

Edited June 8, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[veSev]

Vigilance needs more reliability for a few abilities. Parsing, similar to Quick Draw for DF Gunslingers, lives and dies on PB and OS. And finally, we have someone on live with a 186 OH to see the #s that we are capable of, props to Ermania on taking the top DPS spot for Guardians on live, but sadly they didn't break 3900 yet. Although it was basically a average crit parse (35.9%), I imagined that 3900 would become to low end, but seems that is not the case. From the recent 2.8 parses, Guardians are the lowest DPS listed of the top end parses (2.8+ Leaderboards). Hopefully, I will get the 186 OH in the next few weeks or at least the armoring to get a first hand experience of where we stand, but just looking at the #s we are lacking greatly in comparison to other Mdps classes.

 

Focus, although the single target damage is rather lacking, is an AOE spec, and from the recent Ops there is really only one or two fight that it is even useful. I understand that people want the option to run a specific spec in any operation, but I have ran Focus and completed both DF/DP HM with no issues and keeping up with my DPS crew. When we get into the NiM discussion, I am of the opinion that you run the spec that performs the best based on the specific bosses mechanics. As an example, Nefra, being a single boss with no true adds, you would want vigilance because it is a single target spec. Once reaching Draxus, I would swap to Focus because it allows me to inflict great burst damage to multiple mobs. While I agree Focus does need some reworking, I feel that as it is now allows for use in any SM/HM boss fight and specific instances in NiM. The one argument that I would say in regards to beefing up Focus is the recent changes to Balance for Shadows. Balance is, more or less, an AOE spec, but its added single target damage makes in the optimal spec for the class as a whole. This allows for greater utility in the class than the Guardian in terms of pure DPS. I will add, I am purely a PVE player, and only PvP out of boredom or with guild mates; so I cant speak for the drawbacks for Focus in both 8v8s and 4v4s.

[Manweth]

Vigi is back in the towards bottom section of the barrel again. There is no question about that. In effect, we have been converted into nuisances for raid leaders once again, as a good enough Guardian is a guy you want to take, but ultimately, can only be paired with a sentinel as no raid leader wants to go without a sentinel.

 

This goes for Nightmare obviously.

[Gyronamics]

Vigi is back in the towards bottom section of the barrel again. There is no question about that. In effect, we have been converted into nuisances for raid leaders once again, as a good enough Guardian is a guy you want to take, but ultimately, can only be paired with a sentinel as no raid leader wants to go without a sentinel.

 

This goes for Nightmare obviously.

 

Why is your signature a lie?

[GrandLordMenace]

Vigi is back in the towards bottom section of the barrel again. There is no question about that. In effect, we have been converted into nuisances for raid leaders once again, as a good enough Guardian is a guy you want to take, but ultimately, can only be paired with a sentinel as no raid leader wants to go without a sentinel.

 

This goes for Nightmare obviously.

 

It's hard to say with the gear differentials. I don't trust the world boards due to the short dummy, simply because so many classes can schedule a burnout and therefore beat the crap out of us as long as they end the parse with 0 resource. Guardians have no such advantage. We also benefit far more from being in combat than other classes with the resource generation, and while we have ****** sustained mobility, flash mobility is not a problem.

 

I honestly think Ermania isn't at her full potential, her Blade Storms are not lining up with her Overhead Slashes, if she could make that 25 BS and 27 OHS into 27 BS and 27 OHS she would be able to be at 3900 provided her luck holds.

 

We also have patently RIDICULOUS situations where Sentinels, PTs, and Shadows are bonking their way into 4300. That's a 400 dps gap. *** Bioware.

 

It's a two sided coin. Discuss. I think we need a DOT buff and perhaps critical chance increases on all major abilities.

Edited June 15, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[TACeMossie]

It's hard to say with the gear differentials. I don't trust the world boards due to the short dummy, simply because so many classes can schedule a burnout and therefore beat the crap out of us as long as they end the parse with 0 resource. Guardians have no such advantage. We also benefit far more from being in combat than other classes with the resource generation, and while we have ****** sustained mobility, flash mobility is not a problem.

 

I honestly think Ermania isn't at her full potential, her Blade Storms are not lining up with her Overhead Slashes, if she could make that 25 BS and 27 OHS into 27 BS and 27 OHS she would be able to be at 3900 provided her luck holds.

 

We also have patently RIDICULOUS situations where Sentinels, PTs, and Shadows are bonking their way into 4300. That's a 400 dps gap. *** Bioware.

 

It's a two sided coin. Discuss. I think we need a DOT buff and perhaps critical chance increases on all major abilities.

 

To be fair, Guardians are still quite useful for a number of fights (though my guild normally uses a guardian tank, he respecs to focus for draxus and goes Shien during phases with guardians). Correct me if im wrong, but I believe Guardians have a slightly stronger focus spec than sentinels, making them better in AoE fights, and add to that their ability to emergency tank and their combat-sentinel dps levels without setup of RNG, im more than happy to have a guardian DPSing in NiM raids im in.

 

Hell, the tightest DPS check in the game is NiM Bestia right now, and the only spec that can't pull off enough DPS for that in dread forged gear is...

 

Wait.

There is none.

All specs can hit over 3.5k dps in that fight without even needing any dread masters gear.

 

Though Draxus 8-man did get a tighter DPS check on wave 7, what with them boosting guardians health by 50% and taking 5 seconds off the delay between waves

 

Also isn't a huge portion of vigilances damage from weapon damage? That means that while specs like Assault Vanguards, Balance Shadows ect... are getting massive boosts from their better focus/generator from C-Zero (~70% of both of their damages are force/tech), Vigilance won't see a big increase until they get a dread masters mainhand from the council. As such, I think its only fair to be comparing to people in equal gear (use my 3.95k dps parse in Assault spec - done without an energy burn at the end - for the top of assault. It was actually slightly lower, but im missing a couple of dread forged pieces. I also have 0 dread masters pieces currently).

 

EDIT - this paragraph is now debunked - someone haxed up a 4.15k dps parse in dread forged gear on a vanguard -_-

 

Its for this reason I think the mainhand and offhand should always come in the same operation, otherwise Sages/Vanguards/Shadows will get a significant advantage over the other classes during the period between the 2 operations (e.g. top VG DPS pre-2.8 was a vanguard in a couple of dread masters pieces, including an offhand, which was barely touching 3.8k. Their crit rate was significantly lower than the DM Earpieces on dread forged gear parse that was 50 dps behind - the offhand was about a 100-150 dps increase)

Edited June 16, 2014 by TACeMossie

[jack__]

We also have patently RIDICULOUS situations where Sentinels, PTs, and Shadows are bonking their way into 4300. That's a 400 dps gap. *** Bioware.

 

It's a two sided coin. Discuss. I think we need a DOT buff and perhaps critical chance increases on all major abilities.

 

I think that Bioware have gone overzealous with their buffs and sentinels, vanguards and shadows are hitting to hard. It appears that the target dps level for this gear tier is 4100-4200, but classes sitting at 4300 is a bit too absurd. Closing the gap between the classes doesn't just mean bringing the lowest up, it also means bringing the top down.

[Lowarro]

To be fair, Guardians are still quite useful for a number of fights (though my guild normally uses a guardian tank, he respecs to focus for draxus and goes Shien during phases with guardians). ...

 

How does this work? Respec durring the fight from focus to vigilence? Some hybrid of the 2 with a stance change? Something sounds off here.

[GrandLordMenace]

How does this work? Respec durring the fight from focus to vigilence? Some hybrid of the 2 with a stance change? Something sounds off here.

 

Field respec midfight. My guildmaster has done it herself several times.

 

[GrandLordMenace]

To be fair, Guardians are still quite useful for a number of fights (though my guild normally uses a guardian tank, he respecs to focus for draxus and goes Shien during phases with guardians). Correct me if im wrong, but I believe Guardians have a slightly stronger focus spec than sentinels, making them better in AoE fights, and add to that their ability to emergency tank and their combat-sentinel dps levels without setup of RNG, im more than happy to have a guardian DPSing in NiM raids im in.

 

Hell, the tightest DPS check in the game is NiM Bestia right now, and the only spec that can't pull off enough DPS for that in dread forged gear is...

 

Wait.

There is none.

All specs can hit over 3.5k dps in that fight without even needing any dread masters gear.

 

Though Draxus 8-man did get a tighter DPS check on wave 7, what with them boosting guardians health by 50% and taking 5 seconds off the delay between waves

 

Also isn't a huge portion of vigilances damage from weapon damage? That means that while specs like Assault Vanguards, Balance Shadows ect... are getting massive boosts from their better focus/generator from C-Zero (~70% of both of their damages are force/tech), Vigilance won't see a big increase until they get a dread masters mainhand from the council. As such, I think its only fair to be comparing to people in equal gear (use my 3.95k dps parse in Assault spec - done without an energy burn at the end - for the top of assault. It was actually slightly lower, but im missing a couple of dread forged pieces. I also have 0 dread masters pieces currently).

 

EDIT - this paragraph is now debunked - someone haxed up a 4.15k dps parse in dread forged gear on a vanguard -_-

 

Its for this reason I think the mainhand and offhand should always come in the same operation, otherwise Sages/Vanguards/Shadows will get a significant advantage over the other classes during the period between the 2 operations (e.g. top VG DPS pre-2.8 was a vanguard in a couple of dread masters pieces, including an offhand, which was barely touching 3.8k. Their crit rate was significantly lower than the DM Earpieces on dread forged gear parse that was 50 dps behind - the offhand was about a 100-150 dps increase)

 

To be fair, Vig's dots and elemental damage make up about 25-30 percent of Vig's damage, plus some from blade storm so they do infact benefit from the offhand. I still think there is a DPS imbalance however.

 

I do want to draw to attention the major tanking issues (GRUMBLES everyone cares about DPS but Tanking has some major bugs no one seems to notice!)

 

I'm speaking specifically of the saber reflect bug. Info in the OP.

 

I will also once again restate my love for the 1.5 million dummy, as it's long enough to counteract the imbalance of a timed burnout. I also think that for a sustained DPS spec, Vig has a short rampup, and fairly efficient target swapping. Besides an armor debuff, it has no real problem transferring DPS from target A to target B, and has the mobiity to back it up, for example brontes allows a Guardian to rubberband between. I do feel that Force Push should have the leap reset taken from it, and given to combat focus or a dedicated offensive CD, as Force push requires the guardian to push the target, which is something of a detriment in PVE, at least on a boss (You actually have resource in a boss fight and as such will rarely force push except if needing a ranged attack, unlike a dummy.)

Edited June 16, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[GrandLordMenace]

To be fair, Guardians are still quite useful for a number of fights (though my guild normally uses a guardian tank, he respecs to focus for draxus and goes Shien during phases with guardians). Correct me if im wrong, but I believe Guardians have a slightly stronger focus spec than sentinels, making them better in AoE fights, and add to that their ability to emergency tank and their combat-sentinel dps levels without setup of RNG, im more than happy to have a guardian DPSing in NiM raids im in.

 

Hell, the tightest DPS check in the game is NiM Bestia right now, and the only spec that can't pull off enough DPS for that in dread forged gear is...

 

Wait.

There is none.

All specs can hit over 3.5k dps in that fight without even needing any dread masters gear.

 

Though Draxus 8-man did get a tighter DPS check on wave 7, what with them boosting guardians health by 50% and taking 5 seconds off the delay between waves

 

Also isn't a huge portion of vigilances damage from weapon damage? That means that while specs like Assault Vanguards, Balance Shadows ect... are getting massive boosts from their better focus/generator from C-Zero (~70% of both of their damages are force/tech), Vigilance won't see a big increase until they get a dread masters mainhand from the council. As such, I think its only fair to be comparing to people in equal gear (use my 3.95k dps parse in Assault spec - done without an energy burn at the end - for the top of assault. It was actually slightly lower, but im missing a couple of dread forged pieces. I also have 0 dread masters pieces currently).

 

EDIT - this paragraph is now debunked - someone haxed up a 4.15k dps parse in dread forged gear on a vanguard -_-

 

Its for this reason I think the mainhand and offhand should always come in the same operation, otherwise Sages/Vanguards/Shadows will get a significant advantage over the other classes during the period between the 2 operations (e.g. top VG DPS pre-2.8 was a vanguard in a couple of dread masters pieces, including an offhand, which was barely touching 3.8k. Their crit rate was significantly lower than the DM Earpieces on dread forged gear parse that was 50 dps behind - the offhand was about a 100-150 dps increase)

 

I disagree on the Guardian vs Sentinel focus. While I don't have one myself, a friend of mine runs a bunch of classes and has a ridiculous amount of experience, but he hates the 1mil dummy so hasn't parsed on the world boards since the modules went live. From observing his parses, and I can automatically assume that he has full 78s+ on all his toons, and from his own testimony, Sentinel Focus is harder than Guardian Focus, but also yields massively better results. Even the World Boards are showing focus sentinels showing off 3600 or 3700, whereas Guardian parses are hidden to me, I've heard whispers of 3500 but to this day I've only seen Antonica with a 3400 on the 1.5mil, and his own sentinel, with worse gear, has a 3550, again on the 1.5 mil.

 

I do feel that there is a sizable dps gap. Plus do remember that sentinels have infinitely more fillers (we have saber throw, they have twin saber throw, AND cauterize. Twin Saber Throw is practically a free aoe!

 

Just my two cents, but guardian focus needs a buff to be brought inline with sentinel focus.

[TACeMossie]

How does this work? Respec durring the fight from focus to vigilence? Some hybrid of the 2 with a stance change? Something sounds off here.

 

It was a typo... well I forgot the name for a half second and put the wrong one down (I meant Soresu form)

Though I have done mid-fight field respecs on my vanguard before, such as swapping from assault to tactics in brontes just after 6 finger phase but before pushing the hands, HM Calphayus for past -> future team (Tactics -> Assault), and once on grob'thok because I forgot to respec after draxus (it was SM though, so it was fine)

Edited June 17, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Manweth]

Why is your signature a lie?

 

I'm not as active as I used to be. I check it maybe once a day, maybe once a week. Depends on my mood.

 

Reality is that I'm too lazy to change it to reflect full truth.

 

I am, however, fully done with theorizing and doing calculations and arguing on other classes forums or PTS forums.

 

It's just not worth it. I just call things as I see them on our forums.

 

We are ****ed. Accept it. And then work towards making Devs appropriate changes.

 

I certainly won't. They simply hate Sages and Guardians.

 

They want ALL guardians AND ALL sages to quit the game.

 

This is a fact, not speculation.

 

Edit: I updated my sig to reflect my situation. Happy now?

 

Edit2: Rydarus man, Force Push + Leap Reset was instituted for PvP not PvE. It makes perfect sense in PvP.

 

Plus I like the mechanic itself and it's mentality. Let it be please. If you'd look for the patch that brought it, you'd see they explicitly state how it was done to increase Guardian mobility in PvP.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Manweth

[Keleus]

I quit for a couple of months for ESO and I come back to SWTOR to find........Pretty much the same thing, almost. Guardians are still the laughing stock of DPS you say eh? Not too surprising, but after playing a little the things to make us better from my view point would be:

 

1) Increase our DoTs by a rather hefty amount. And I mean all of our DoTs, by say 30% more damage.

 

2) Give us passive Armor Pen, not a lot but not a little either, say for every point in accuracy we get 3% armor Penetration for all of our moves. This I feel would be our biggest boon since most of our damage comes from our weapon.

 

3) Give us some utility. If you all insist on keeping Guardians on a lower DPS poll than other classes, give a Raid Leader an incentive to bring a Guardian along to his raid. Take the Buffs and Aids a Sentinel has and give them all to the Guardian. In this idea the goal is that the Guardian will do subpar DPS but offer an incredible amount of support, which can stack once or twice to make room for more, while the Sentinels do obscene amounts of damage but only that, raw damage.

[TACeMossie]

Im thinking the best change is as follows. The first change doesn't relate to Guardians specifically, but rather everyone, but the rest do:

 

1. In future operations, the mainhand and offhand come from the same Op. Alternatively, if they come from separate operations, give the mainhand in the first of the 2 to get Nightmare mode.

This is a minor change to reduce the advantage that force or tech-heavy classes have over guardians whenever new content is released (e.g. between NiM DF and DP, Guardians/jugg, Commandos and Snipers got the worst DPS boost because of the lack of a new mainhand alongside a heavy reliance on weapon damage, and no offhand damage bonus to weapon damage).

 

2. Allow keening to cause DoTs to do 30% more damage to targets below 30%. If we're taking dispatch away from Guardians as an execute, we may as well add another method to do extra damage in the execute. (totals about a 1.67% DPS increase)

 

3. AoE Damage Reduction tied into Narrowed Focus, stance tied to prevent overpowered hybrids that grab it.

 

4. I ran out of ideas by here. Maybe something with freezing force (let it do damage maybe - which also boosts focus's DPS because there's a talent for a free, 1/3 of the GCD Freezing Force, right after using obliterate). Nice utility added to the guardian while also giving it some more AoE threat capabilities while tanking

Edited June 18, 2014 by TACeMossie

[wadecounty]

I feel like I play a different class than the rest of you. That, or the only thing you guys look at is dummy parses, which are a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, oh and did I mention, HORRIBLE indicator of how specs actually perform in a raid environment?

 

You talk of how useful the 1.5 million dummy is, and yet the vast majority of fights in the game don't have you sustaining DPS for more than 4 minutes at a time, which almost invalidates the 1 million dummy.

 

Let's look at some of the positives of Vigilance shall we?

 

1. Amazing at target switches, an important factor in quite a number of endgame raids, including and especially the last fights of both Fortress and Palace.

 

2. Solid at both sustained and burst, a number of specs have to sacrifice one or the other, Vig is great sustained but can actually put out very nice burst in a small window.

 

3. Good AOE! Yes, everyone talks about Focus as THE AOE spec, but for a spec that isn't considered all about AOE (as opposed to Focus and Tactics), Vig is probably the next best out of all the DPS specs in the game in terms of AOE damage, with both a solid strong AOE move (sweep) and a very spammable decent damage AOE attack (Cyclone Slash). Did you know that Cyclone Slash hits for more damage per GCD than Forcequake?

 

4. Incredible survivability! Atm, Guardians have arguably the best suite of cooldowns for a raid DPS, only rivaled by Sentinels really, and there are definitely situations where Focused Defense >> what they can provide. Just an example, but a Guardian DPS will by far have the least healing required for the last burn phase in Dread Palace, one of the most extreme healing checks in the game. And even when a cooldown isn't available, the passives are still nice, 34% DR, up to 54% after every leap.

 

5. Armor debuff. Yes, tanks can apply it too, as can Gunslingers/Commandos. That said, so can we, and that still makes it a very important addition, especially if you don't also have a Guardian tank or Commando dps in your raid. And even if you have a Gunslinger, the Guardian version is far more convenient to use because it isn't a dps loss for the Guardian to apply it.

 

Now, let's talk about some of these classes that parse higher.

 

Balance Shadows, every time there's a target swap they are losing DPS compared to Vigilance, they don't have as much on demand burst, they have worse overall AOE (FiB every 15 seconds doesn't cut it), they have worse survivability.... they basically have 2 advantages, they do a tiny bit more DPS in situations where you get to stand still and wack on a boss (of course these scenarios usually don't involve tight DPS checks), and they can be the kiter for Raptus on Council. That's about it.

 

Assault Vanguard... this is one that I do actually think can get a raid spot over a Vig Guardian now, as they share that role of solid in lots of areas, weak in none, while also doing a bit more DPS. However, I'd still say Vig is more survivable, and the DPS advantage Assault holds is a very small one. In addition, the Assault Vanguard rotation is more difficult to perform optimally in a raid environment, and it does suffer from target switching slightly more than Vig does.

 

Dirty Fighting Scoundrels... this one is obvious, huge ramp-up time, even moreso than Balance Shadows, which really hurts them for target switching, much lower passive survivability (one of their main survival tools is their instant heal but they have to spend 2 GCD's just to use it).

 

Also, nobody likes to mention things like this I guess because its such a huge advantage for us, but how about completely cheesing mechanics with Saber Reflect? The orbs on Brontes, taking 0 damage from the Council for 3 seconds in the final burn phase (and even reflecting that damage).... that is a huge edge for us. Vanguards and Scoundrels have nothing comparable, Shadows can use Shroud though which also allows them to cheese death mark so that's an edge for them there.

 

The truth is, every single DPS has at least 1 spec that is 100% viable for endgame now, that includes Vigilance Guardian, and the actual DPS numbers are so high now at max potential that what you see on a dummy hardly even matters anymore. And in terms of utility, I think Guardians have a ton of it atm. I've never joined a pug raid where I had someone even slightly hint at not wanting to bring a Guardian along, at MOST they didn't want another melee, in fact they're usually pleased when they see Guardians now because of how low the skill cap for the class has gotten.

 

So yeah, that's my 2 cents. Also the Saber Reflect issue (coming from someone who actually tanks) is hardly as big a deal as you make it out to be, it basically requires you to hold reflect for half a GCD so you're attacked first which is not an issue at all.

 

My biggest issues with the class atm would be Focus sustained damage, fixing the force leap bug, and adding greater utility/incentive to use Intercede. We'd have to be very careful about improving Intercede though, as its already a fantastic ability for PvP, it just lacks usefulness in a lot of PvE situations (similar to Phasewalk for Shadows).

[Manweth]

You think we are getting pounded by all other DPSers?

 

Most ppl who post here is top spec players who usually crush their guildmates in DPS.

 

But we know when we are underpowered, by a simple test:

 

When a vanguard comes and does +700 DPS on the same fight between 2.7 and 2.8 ( Brontes)

 

When a shadow comes and crushes Draxus with a 3.9 all the while your best is 3.2-3.3 with focus spec.

 

When a watchman who used to trail you behind with a 300 DPS difference does 100 DPS than you in same fight, the very same day patch hits.

 

 

It's easy to feel the "change in the wind", as it were. And I haven't checked dummy parses in a while. All my comments are stemming from live raiding environment observations.

 

Currently, there is ZERO reasons to take as long as you have either a) Vanguard, b) Shadow, c) Sentinel. Scoundrel may make you pause about survivability, but at the end of the day, if you have a rare scoundrel with monster DPS, they do more than us any time of the day.

 

Note: These comments are made based upon the assumption that the players of those ACs are on a similar skill level. Otherwise, it's ALWAYS the player quality over AC itself.

 

Winter is coming. For us Guardians.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Manweth

[Vaidinah]

4. Incredible survivability! Atm, Guardians have arguably the best suite of cooldowns for a raid DPS, only rivaled by Sentinels really, and there are definitely situations where Focused Defense >> what they can provide. Just an example, but a Guardian DPS will by far have the least healing required for the last burn phase in Dread Palace, one of the most extreme healing checks in the game. And even when a cooldown isn't available, the passives are still nice, 34% DR, up to 54% after every leap.

 

This is utterly false and it's not arguable by anyone with any decent kind of understanding of defensive cooldowns and raid damage. In fact, Guardians have sub-par survivability in fact compared to almost every other class in the game and arguably have the worst survivability in general. The only advantages they have in this department is being the best emergency off-tank when the real tanks go down and they have heavy armor. I'll go down the list of their defensive cooldowns, but it's important that people understand, the vast majority of damage DPS take in raids comes from AoE Force/Tech attacks that can't be defended or Saber Reflected. As of 2.8, they are now the only melee DPS in the game without access to a 30% AoE damage reduction as well.

 

Enure: This is the best defensive cooldown Vigilance Guardians have now thanks to the extra 15% damage reduction every 60 seconds. For Focus, this skill is terrible as it only provides some extra health for a short time and provides zero mitigation.

 

Saber Ward: With a 3 minute cooldown, it's a pretty awful DcD for DPS Guardians due to the aforementioned fact that only the melee/ranged defense boost doesn't actually do anything the vast majority of the time. The 25% damage reduction from Force/Tech attacks is about as good as a PT's Reactive Shield, which has a 2 minute cooldown.

 

Saber Reflect: This skill is useless in the vast majority of fights in the game. In a small number of select fights, this skill is conditionally great against certain attacks.

 

Focused Defense: This skill is also terrible the vast majority of time as of 2.8. With a 10 second duration and most raid damage going out infrequently enough that you will usually only get 1-2 charges of this skill. In a small number of select fights, this skill can be conditionally decent against certain attacks.

 

Your comparisons between DPS classes miss out on a ton of important considerations and are highly flawed. One example would that you put in Dirty Fighting Scoundrels when the highest parsing spec for that class is clearly Scrapper. As of 2.8, they have much better survivability (30% AoE damage reduction and Pugnacity becoming a 20% damage reduction), better mobility, zero channeled skills, and they have very little setup time. Also, the roll from Scoundrels works similarly to the Gunslinger/Sniper ones in that you can fully resist attacks and thus negate certain attacks. They can use theirs twice every 10 seconds, though, it's unreliable as it only works around 50% of the time from what I can tell.

 

As for Assault Vanguards, I don't even know how it's possible for someone to claim that the rotation for Assault Vanguard DPS is harder to perform optimally than Vigilance Guardian in raid environment. Did you somehow forget that Assault Vanguards use a great deal of 10 meter attacks and Vigilance requires a 3 second channel roughly every 10 seconds?

 

Also, nobody likes to mention things like this I guess because its such a huge advantage for us, but how about completely cheesing mechanics with Saber Reflect? The orbs on Brontes, taking 0 damage from the Council for 3 seconds in the final burn phase (and even reflecting that damage).... that is a huge edge for us. Vanguards and Scoundrels have nothing comparable, Shadows can use Shroud though which also allows them to cheese death mark so that's an edge for them there.

 

These are important fights so there is a significant advantage in those respects, but those are only special moments of an entire fight. For the vast majority of time, Guardian DPS survivability is very poor and is probably the worst amongst all the DPS specs in the game, especially as Focus. Most relevantly, they are the worst amongst the melee DPS specs, which is who they are competing against.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Vaidinah

[GrandLordMenace]

I'm not of the Doom and Gloom mindset, as Guardians do significant on boss DPS, but that being said, Guardians are dealing with uptime problems that most other specs don't. Assault VG's are completely independant of melee channels, same with balance shadow, so while they have crappier target switching, Vigilance has great target switching but **** mobility in the long run (vig mobility is great for fast target switching, but NOT following a boss that is being kited in circles).

[Marb]

Getting some knowledgeable people in here to discuss the tank side of things would be what I'd most like to see with this round of questions. There are a lot of good players who don't post on the forums, and I feel like it's the reps job to try to reach out to those people.

 

We had 3 PvP dps questions last time because apparently Jugg tanks are OP. The rep shouldn't consider the forums as the entire community.

[GrandLordMenace]

Once again, the OP:

 

That's my big tanking issue.

 

Guardian Tank Opening Threat/Saber Reflect Bug:

 

As of right now, it was assumed that Guardian Opening Tank threat was fine, and it would be, if Saber Reflect wasn't bugged. Below are the notes from a guildy of mine, LuckyGunslinger, on the bug:

 

 

So, I was talking in allies today about Reflect and Threat. I noticed that in some pulls, I would still get pulled off of by my trusty Operative even with my usual opener with Reflect Thrown in once the fight begins.

 

Daunting Presence:

Force Leap has a [50 / 100]% chance to finish the cooldown on Force Kick. In addition, Saber Reflect lasts [1 second / 2 seconds] longer and generates a high amount of threat on all engaged enemies within 30 meters when activated.

 

00:43:53.291 Artorias enters combat.

00:43:53.337 Artorias activates Force Charge.

00:43:53.337 Artorias loses Sprint.

00:43:53.339 Artorias gains 3 rage point.

00:43:54.235 Artorias's Force Charge critically hits Nefra, Who Bars the Way for 1206* energy damage, causing 2412 threat!

00:43:54.917 Artorias activates Smash.

00:43:54.918 Artorias spends 3 rage point.

00:43:54.918 Artorias's Quake adds effect Accuracy Reduced (Force) to Nefra, Who Bars the Way.

00:43:54.918 Artorias's Crushing Fist adds effect Armor Reduced to Nefra, Who Bars the Way.

00:43:54.918 Artorias's Smash hits Nefra, Who Bars the Way for 1468 kinetic damage, causing 3378 threat.

00:43:55.446 Brei'yu's Kolto Probe adds effect Kolto Probe to Artorias.

00:43:55.499 Artorias activates Saber Reflect.

00:43:55.499 Artorias gains Saber Reflect.

00:43:56.532 Artorias activates Crushing Blow.

00:43:56.532 Artorias spends 3 rage point.

00:43:56.533 Artorias gains Crushing Blow.

 

No Threat Gen. The Fight has been 'engaged' Nefra has not hit me. However, later on in the SAME parse, after Nefra has of course hit me.

 

00:45:07.598 Artorias's Force Push hits Nefra, Who Bars the Way for 1340 kinetic damage, causing 2680 threat.

00:45:07.803 Brei'yu's Kolto Infusion heals Artorias for 604.

00:45:07.919 Artorias activates Saber Reflect.

00:45:07.919 Artorias gains Saber Reflect.

00:45:07.920 Artorias's Saber Reflect causes 8592 threat gain on Nefra, Who Bars the Way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And here's one more for measure. Same deal, No damage taken yet, but combat is engaged and Tyrans is targeting me

 

01:54:03.495 Artorias enters combat.

01:54:03.508 Artorias loses Sprint.

01:54:03.520 Artorias's Saber Throw hits Dread Master Tyrans for 1377 energy damage, causing 2754 threat.

01:54:03.582 Artorias activates Saber Reflect.

01:54:03.582 Artorias gains Saber Reflect.

01:54:04.167 Healingdarkness's Static Barrier adds effect Static Barrier to Artorias.

01:54:04.168 Healingdarkness's Static Barrier adds effect Deionized to Artorias.

01:54:04.169 Artorias activates Enrage.

01:54:04.385 Artorias gains 3 rage point.

01:54:04.576 Healingdarkness's Static Barrier effect of Static Barrier fades from Artorias.

01:54:04.576 Artorias gains Focused Defense.

01:54:04.666 Artorias parries Dread Master Tyrans's Shock, causing 1 threat.

01:54:04.576 Artorias gains Focused Defense.

01:54:04.666 Artorias parries Dread Master Tyrans's Shock, causing 1 threat.

01:54:04.667 Dread Master Tyrans's Shock hits Artorias for 2572 energy damage, causing 2572 threat. (2572 absorbed)

01:54:04.667 Dread Master Tyrans's Shock hits Artorias for 2572 energy damage, causing 2572 threat. (2572 absorbed)

01:54:04.667 Dread Master Tyrans's Shock hits Artorias for 2572 energy damage, causing 2572 threat. (1430 absorbed)

 

 

and later on in the same fight.

 

 

01:58:08.751 Dread Master Tyrans's Shock hits Artorias for 2346 energy damage, causing 2346 threat.

01:58:08.919 Artorias's Vicious Throw critically hits Dread Master Tyrans for 3789* energy damage, causing 7578 threat!

01:58:09.730 Artorias activates Saber Reflect.

01:58:09.730 Artorias gains Saber Reflect.

01:58:09.731 Artorias's Saber Reflect causes 8592 threat gain on Dread Master Tyrans.

 

 

What this means is, Guardian's only threat generating crutch is only useful after the opening stage of a fight is over which is the only shaky threat generating part. I'll look into it some more before making a forum post.

 

 

The gist of the bug is, until the tank is hit, Saber Reflect does NOT generate any threat. Due to boss swingtimers, bosses usually won't hit the tank until a few GCDs later, enough time for a more frontloaded burst DPS to pull right off the tank. This is inexcusable, no other tank has this issue. Bioware either needs to fix the bug, or shift it to another ability, most likely saber throw, to allow for Guardians to have a high threat opening.

[windogie]

This is utterly false and it's not arguable by anyone with any decent kind of understanding of defensive cooldowns and raid damage. In fact, Guardians have sub-par survivability in fact compared to almost every other class in the game and arguably have the worst survivability in general. The only advantages they have in this department is being the best emergency off-tank when the real tanks go down and they have heavy armor. I'll go down the list of their defensive cooldowns, but it's important that people understand, the vast majority of damage DPS take in raids comes from AoE Force/Tech attacks that can't be defended or Saber Reflected. As of 2.8, they are now the only melee DPS in the game without access to a 30% AoE damage reduction as well.

 

Enure: This is the best defensive cooldown Vigilance Guardians have now thanks to the extra 15% damage reduction every 60 seconds. For Focus, this skill is terrible as it only provides some extra health for a short time and provides zero mitigation.

 

Saber Ward: With a 3 minute cooldown, it's a pretty awful DcD for DPS Guardians due to the aforementioned fact that only the melee/ranged defense boost doesn't actually do anything the vast majority of the time. The 25% damage reduction from Force/Tech attacks is about as good as a PT's Reactive Shield, which has a 2 minute cooldown.

 

Saber Reflect: This skill is useless in the vast majority of fights in the game. In a small number of select fights, this skill is conditionally great against certain attacks.

 

Focused Defense: This skill is also terrible the vast majority of time as of 2.8. With a 10 second duration and most raid damage going out infrequently enough that you will usually only get 1-2 charges of this skill. In a small number of select fights, this skill can be conditionally decent against certain attacks.

 

Your comparisons between DPS classes miss out on a ton of important considerations and are highly flawed. One example would that you put in Dirty Fighting Scoundrels when the highest parsing spec for that class is clearly Scrapper. As of 2.8, they have much better survivability (30% AoE damage reduction and Pugnacity becoming a 20% damage reduction), better mobility, zero channeled skills, and they have very little setup time. Also, the roll from Scoundrels works similarly to the Gunslinger/Sniper ones in that you can fully resist attacks and thus negate certain attacks. They can use theirs twice every 10 seconds, though, it's unreliable as it only works around 50% of the time from what I can tell.

 

As for Assault Vanguards, I don't even know how it's possible for someone to claim that the rotation for Assault Vanguard DPS is harder to perform optimally than Vigilance Guardian in raid environment. Did you somehow forget that Assault Vanguards use a great deal of 10 meter attacks and Vigilance requires a 3 second channel roughly every 10 seconds?

 

 

 

These are important fights so there is a significant advantage in those respects, but those are only special moments of an entire fight. For the vast majority of time, Guardian DPS survivability is very poor and is probably the worst amongst all the DPS specs in the game, especially as Focus. Most relevantly, they are the worst amongst the melee DPS specs, which is who they are competing against.

 

Most of the AOE damage is avoidable anyways since you can intercede back and leap to the boss. The problem with veng/vig right now is pvp wise it has the best DCDs in game since most pvp damage is burst or dot damage and seeing as enraged defense has no rate limit it will heal for about 30k+ each time if used correctly. Also endure pain no longer gives the 15% reduction enraged defense does now. Me specifically I don't like the change since I got more healing before 2.8. However people in PVE are having troubles now since rate limit doesn't matter in PVE duration is key in PVE, what should have been done is keep the same duration, little smaller heals but add a rate limit. That would balance pvp and keep PVE fine since with a 30-40s duration your getting a good amount of the heals. It also makes it so the 15% reduction is worth it in the long run which it isn't as of now.