Suggested AP buff.

[MasonMc]

I'm sorry if this has been thought of already, but I've never seen anyone have the idea before. A lot of people think AP cannot be buffed because it already has great AoE. And if you were to buff AP, it'd make AP AoE better. But, AP single target DPS is pretty bad at the moment. Yes, it has great burst. But it has quite a ramp up time, and you never see ANY AP Powertechs in the parse leader boards.

 

So here is my idea, buff the skill Blood Tracker. Currently it increases the damage you deal to BLEEDING targets by 3%. So, if you increase the damage to lets say... 6%? I'm not sure what the exact amount should be. And change it from bleeding targets to damage from your Retractable Blade. So, it should just increase your DPS to single targets, and that's it. Because if you use Retractable Blade twice on two different targets, you'll burn out very quickly. I think it'd be a great idea, hopefully it hasn't been discussed before. But let me know what you guys think, thanks!

 

(I converted this from the post on the Vanguard forum, so hopefully I converted it right lol)

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

All we need is Immolate to hit harder, and put some sort of buff with Rail Shot increasing our overall damage by say 5%? Rocket Punch could stand to hit a bit harder too for all specs...

[Brunner_Venda]

1. Undo the retractable blade nerf. RB should more up front damage and the bleed dot ticks harder. Same as it did pre 2.4.

2. Prototype cylinders increase all damage by 3% for high energy cylinder. 1% is a joke.

3. Reduce the cooldown of rocket punch by 2-3 seconds. It's the spec's signature move.

4. Reduce the cooldown of shoulder cannon by 45 seconds. So it can be used more often.

5. Increase the rebounder proc absorb amount by 500.

 

Viable. Useful.

[Angamir]

lol if Shoulder cannon got 45 shorter cd I would score over 4000 on parse with 180 gear ...

 

But I agree Immolate nad RP should be hitting harder - so single target DPS should be increased 2-3%

[SpikesShayGrass]

1. Undo the retractable blade nerf. RB should more up front damage and the bleed dot ticks harder. Same as it did pre 2.4.

2. Prototype cylinders increase all damage by 3% for high energy cylinder. 1% is a joke.

3. Reduce the cooldown of rocket punch by 2-3 seconds. It's the spec's signature move.

4. Reduce the cooldown of shoulder cannon by 45 seconds. So it can be used more often.

5. Increase the rebounder proc absorb amount by 500.

 

^this

[TACeMossie]

lol if Shoulder cannon got 45 shorter cd I would score over 4000 on parse with 180 gear ...

 

Since when did shoulder cannon contribute 650dps to AP?

[Aetrus]

Yeah, increasing the Prototype Cylinders elemental damage talent and increasing the amount of dmg that Energy Redoubt absorbs...or increasing the amount of frequency it procs, would make AP very viable in PvP. I would totally support both of these buffs.

[Angamir]

Since when did shoulder cannon contribute 650dps to AP?

 

if you shorten Shoulder Cannon cd by half, you could actualy spam it every minute. Maybe I exaggerated a bit - but DPS improvement would be HUGE from just that - at least 150 -200 DPS improvement.

 

Al AP needs is easier access to Jet charge (like making Jet Charge in 2nd tier of shield tech tree), and 5-10% damage more on Immolate n Rocket Punch.

[Brunner_Venda]

if you shorten Shoulder Cannon cd by half, you could actualy spam it every minute. Maybe I exaggerated a bit - but DPS improvement would be HUGE from just that - at least 150 -200 DPS improvement.

 

Al AP needs is easier access to Jet charge (like making Jet Charge in 2nd tier of shield tech tree), and 5-10% damage more on Immolate n Rocket Punch.

 

Jet charge is a tank skill, just leave that there.

 

If we took 30 seconds off of SC, we could use it once a minute which would be useful and give us a burst phase.

 

3900 DPS or so would put us in line with where they are moving pyro.

 

Something has to change defense wise because kolto overload requires shields up in order to survive with it. Pyro survivability in that regard is in a much better place.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Brunner_Venda

[Angamir]

Agree Kolto overload is bearly usefull on NiM DF. It cannot even stop things like Afliction from killing you. And most bosses hit you for more than 30% anyway even with basic attacks. So if for exampt tank dies on Calphyus and you need to take the agro fro a few seconds for healers to res them your kolto overload wont give you **** wihtout shield.

 

But I still stand by the point that DPS Powertech needs Jet Charge, you have low dps anyway and you still waste a lot of time jsut running from add to add. Not to mention Corruptor Zero Mine on Nim - which you haqve to drop ASAP, and if you are 30m from the boss when it hits you ...

Edited May 28, 2014 by Angamir

[KainrycKarr]

A lot of what is suggested here would bring us close to OP level. The problem with AP is that it walks a fine line between OP and UP.

 

That said, there are three things I would request that I feel would greatly increase AP's viability in the coming patches of class balance without putting it in an OP spot.

 

1. The friggin' prototype cylinder box. Ion gets 8% damage, CGC gets 3% crit chance, and HEGC gets....1% int/ele DPS. Change this to 3% or 5% and I'm satisfied.

 

2. Two of the three DPS classes for BH have a "reset" gimmick; Arsenal/Unload, and Pyro/Rail shot. Shield Tech additionally has Rocket Punch. I would like AP to have a reset to something as well; preferably rocket punch.

 

Yes, rocket punch is already used by ST, but what other abilities would be suggested? Immolate? I can do 9-10k immolate right now, usually 6-8k though. Too much. Rail shot? It's an automatic crit that already does between 5-7k for us. Flamethrower? We already have a box that reduces the downtime, and with the 60% damage buff from FB/IM this would be hilariously OP in group PVP. That leaves flame burst which is already spammable, retractable blade which is also spammable, and Rocket Punch. RP does solid damage for us but not as much as RS, IMM, or FT and thus would be a fair choice IMO.

 

3. Either some kind of buff to our shields while up similar to Pyro's buff to Kolto, or, a defensive use for Chaff Flare. Chaff Flare does absolutely nothing for AP in PVP and thus is ripe for being buffed for some kind of defensive utilization for us.

[Mastershroom]

My suggestion: let Prototype Flamethrower buff Unload as well, for greater damage than Flamethrower, so you can choose to use your 3 stacks on Flamethrower for AoE, or Unload for single target, i.e. boss fights. Think about it: they're both 15s cooldowns and 3s channels. Allowing Unload to take FT's place in rotation could allow a serious boost to single target damage (that we desperately need), without affecting AoE capability at all. Let PFT boost UL by 25% per stack, for example, compared to 20% for FT. Hell, don't even bother giving UL the slowdown or heat reduction that FT gets.

[xxSHOONYxx]

My suggestion: let Prototype Flamethrower buff Unload as well, for greater damage than Flamethrower, so you can choose to use your 3 stacks on Flamethrower for AoE, or Unload for single target, i.e. boss fights. Think about it: they're both 15s cooldowns and 3s channels. Allowing Unload to take FT's place in rotation could allow a serious boost to single target damage (that we desperately need), without affecting AoE capability at all. Let PFT boost UL by 25% per stack, for example, compared to 20% for FT. Hell, don't even bother giving UL the slowdown or heat reduction that FT gets.

 

Oh god, then I'd have to find a spot for unload on my quick bars. But that is an interesting idea that's been discussed a few times in the past about being able to trade the AoE for single target. I think you should be able to put all that extra damage into a 25k immolate hit (not really)

 

What about having the stacks of PTF additionally increase all fire damage (besides flame thrower). Then it would give AP a small ramp up time after each flame thrower use, or people could just hold on to all three of their stacks and have increased single target damage.

 

Maybe have PFT stacks work like fury stacks, build 5 (put a rate limit on it if needed) and trade them for one of:

-massive flamethrowers

-15 second window of increased damage

-15 second window of increased movement speed

 

Thinking about it, you'd need a rate limit of 3 seconds for each stack so you couldn't overlap increased damage and flamethrowers. You would build 5 stacks in 15 seconds, letting you maintain one of the three.

[TACeMossie]

My suggestion: let Prototype Flamethrower buff Unload as well, for greater damage than Flamethrower, so you can choose to use your 3 stacks on Flamethrower for AoE, or Unload for single target, i.e. boss fights. Think about it: they're both 15s cooldowns and 3s channels. Allowing Unload to take FT's place in rotation could allow a serious boost to single target damage (that we desperately need), without affecting AoE capability at all. Let PFT boost UL by 25% per stack, for example, compared to 20% for FT. Hell, don't even bother giving UL the slowdown or heat reduction that FT gets.

 

The tooltip would get incredibly complicated doing it this way, but if Unload could be included as well, I'd say just keep the same buffs as PFT - The reduced cost on Unload would cause extra damage via more Flame bursts in the normal rotation as well, instead of the extra 15% for unload.

 

So, in summary:

 

CLOSE AND PERSONAL: In addition to current effects, Unload is given 100% pushback protection

PROTOTYPE FLAMETHROWER: Renamed to Prototype Systems. Tooltip reads -

"Using Flame Burst or Immolate grants a stack of Prototype Systems, which increases the damage of your next Unload or Flamethrower by 20%, and reduces its heat cost by 2, while also causing it to slow any hit targets by 30%. This stacks 3 times. At 3 stacks, Unload and Flamethrower become immune to interrupts"

 

As for the Vanguard version? The Pulse Generator name remains, as it builds up by using 'pulse' attacks (Fire/Ion Pulse)

Edited May 31, 2014 by TACeMossie

[tavrinDosa]

Increase cylinder

 

Critted RP gives you 4 more rockets while sc is on cooldown

 

3 stacks of PFT makes your flamethrower uninterruptible

[Brunner_Venda]

Increase cylinder

 

Critted RP gives you 4 more rockets while sc is on cooldown

 

3 stacks of PFT makes your flamethrower uninterruptible

 

It's already uninterruptible. Getting smashed or interrupted does not affect the channel.

 

I love the unload idea, even if the PT animation is terrible for it (come on! Hold the gun sideways? Seriously? What kind of fake ghetto crap is that?)

 

Something has to be done because tactics/AP is inferior in every single way to pyros and juggs.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Brunner_Venda

[xxSHOONYxx]

The tooltip would get incredibly complicated doing it this way, but if Unload could be included as well, I'd say just keep the same buffs as PFT - The reduced cost on Unload would cause extra damage via more Flame bursts in the normal rotation as well, instead of the extra 15% for unload.

 

So, in summary:

 

CLOSE AND PERSONAL: In addition to current effects, Unload is given 100% pushback protection

PROTOTYPE FLAMETHROWER: Renamed to Prototype Systems. Tooltip reads -

"Using Flame Burst or Immolate grants a stack of Prototype Systems, which increases the damage of your next Unload or Flamethrower by 20%, and reduces its heat cost by 2, while also causing it to slow any hit targets by 30%. This stacks 3 times. At 3 stacks, Unload and Flamethrower become immune to interrupts"

 

As for the Vanguard version? The Pulse Generator name remains, as it builds up by using 'pulse' attacks (Fire/Ion Pulse)

 

The only problem is that an unbuffed flamethrower does ~1000 more damage than unload's maximum damage, and it has increased crit rates and surge (I believe), as well as being elemental damage instead of weapon damage. So it would probably be a dps loss to use unload even in single target situations with the extra flame burst. It would need to be probably 20% for flamethrower and 25% for unload per stack.

 

Edit: misread the tooltip. It's only ~500 damage more, but still.

Edited May 31, 2014 by xxSHOONYxx

[Mastershroom]

The only problem is that an unbuffed flamethrower does ~1000 more damage than unload's maximum damage, and it has increased crit rates and surge (I believe), as well as being elemental damage instead of weapon damage. So it would probably be a dps loss to use unload even in single target situations with the extra flame burst. It would need to be probably 20% for flamethrower and 25% for unload per stack.

 

Edit: misread the tooltip. It's only ~500 damage more, but still.

Yeah, that's basically what I was getting at. Unload would need to be definitively better than Flamethrower for use on a single target, which is why I suggested 25% per stack. That would increase Unload by 75% compared to Flamethrower's 60% with three PFT stacks.

 

As for the other PFT buffs, I think Unload should maybe keep the interrupt immunity, but the slowdown doesn't matter since you're not trying to keep a group of adds together the way you do with FT, and Unload is 30m, so a target is much less likely to outrange it if you start at the normal melee/10m range. As for the heat reduction, I only leave that out because Unload is 16 heat as it is, where FT is 24, down to 18 with 3 stacks.

 

As for the tooltip, yeah it would be more wordy, but I'll accept that lol. Just as an example (including TAC's suggestion of renaming it to "Prototype Systems", which I really like):

 

"While High Energy Gas Cylinder is active, Flame Burst, Flame Sweep and Immolate have a 100% chance to grant Prototype Systems, increasing the damage dealt by your next Flamethrower by 20% or your next Unload by 25% and making it immune to interrupts, reducing Flamethrower's energy cell cost by 2, and causing it to slow affected targets by 30%. This effect can stack up to 3 times."

 

As for the lackluster Unload animation...well, speaking as a Vanguard, you guys can't complain about anything as long as you have Immolate and we're stuck with Fire Pulse.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Mastershroom

[Aetrus]

The Vanguard variant of Unload (forget what its called, since I almost never use it) looks waaaay worse. I mean, when Commandos use it its fine. When someone with a rifle is using it, omg. Awful.

 

Also, no. I don't want all my damage thrown into another 3 second channel. That's boring and bad, especially with all the FOTM juggs running around with awes for days.

[Mastershroom]

The Vanguard variant of Unload (forget what its called, since I almost never use it) looks waaaay worse. I mean, when Commandos use it its fine. When someone with a rifle is using it, omg. Awful.

It's called Full Auto, and yeah, it looks kinda silly on a Vanguard, lowering the rifle and shooting from the hip like that. I still like it better than the PT's Unload, but the Merc Unload looks a little better.

Also, no. I don't want all my damage thrown into another 3 second channel. That's boring and bad, especially with all the FOTM juggs running around with awes for days.

I was just offering a suggestion that would allow Prototype's damage to be more competitive in single-target situations without altering any of the current mechanics or rotation.

[TACeMossie]

Now for something to point out which was pointed out to me:

 

In raids, the Focused Retribution Relic could double proc from self heals. This means that in patch 2.8, Tactics loses ~2.534% dps.

With that in mind, it occured to me that tactics was balanced with its AoE included, with that little bit of extra DPS.

 

As such, the balance change in the OP of increasing the bonus from blood tracker works perfectly to counteract the raid-specific nerf for AP - increasing it from 3% to 6% causes AP to go from 3495.12dps top to 3596.92 dps top (on a dummy, you get more flame bursts in a raid), which is about the DPS loss from not having a double-proc relic in a raid.

 

Now to be honest, I feel like the increase for an exact reversion of the nerf is technically 5.61% from blood tracker, but not only is that a weird number but the extra 0.39% dps is a mere 8 dps in dread forged gear, so its negligible.

 

Now if we could just get DFA out of the rotation without a DPS loss... (hints at reducing rocket punch cooldown and more reliability for flame barrage)

Edited June 1, 2014 by TACeMossie

[KainrycKarr]

And why on earth are we wanting to buff a channeled, ranged ability for a melee-range mobile spec?

 

Seriously, there are so many other better, more practical changes to be had for AP in this very thread.

[KainrycKarr]

The tooltip would get incredibly complicated doing it this way, but if Unload could be included as well, I'd say just keep the same buffs as PFT - The reduced cost on Unload would cause extra damage via more Flame bursts in the normal rotation as well, instead of the extra 15% for unload.

 

So, in summary:

 

CLOSE AND PERSONAL: In addition to current effects, Unload is given 100% pushback protection

PROTOTYPE FLAMETHROWER: Renamed to Prototype Systems. Tooltip reads -

"Using Flame Burst or Immolate grants a stack of Prototype Systems, which increases the damage of your next Unload or Flamethrower by 20%, and reduces its heat cost by 2, while also causing it to slow any hit targets by 30%. This stacks 3 times. At 3 stacks, Unload and Flamethrower become immune to interrupts"

 

As for the Vanguard version? The Pulse Generator name remains, as it builds up by using 'pulse' attacks (Fire/Ion Pulse)

 

Flamethrower is elemental and thus is not mitigated in pvp. Unload is ranged and does not benefit from anything in our spec. At all. Not to mention Unload does less damage than flamethrower, and is single-target.

 

How exactly does adding Unload to prototype flamethrower benefit our single-target?

[KainrycKarr]

 

What about having the stacks of PTF additionally increase all fire damage (besides flame thrower). Then it would give AP a small ramp up time after each flame thrower use, or people could just hold on to all three of their stacks and have increased single target damage.

 

Maybe have PFT stacks work like fury stacks, build 5 (put a rate limit on it if needed) and trade them for one of:

-massive flamethrowers

-15 second window of increased damage

-15 second window of increased movement speed

 

Thinking about it, you'd need a rate limit of 3 seconds for each stack so you couldn't overlap increased damage and flamethrowers. You would build 5 stacks in 15 seconds, letting you maintain one of the three.

 

This is a much, much better idea.

[xxSHOONYxx]

Flamethrower is elemental and thus is not mitigated in pvp. Unload is ranged and does not benefit from anything in our spec. At all. Not to mention Unload does less damage than flamethrower, and is single-target.

 

How exactly does adding Unload to prototype flamethrower benefit our single-target?

If it were to be buffed to deal enough damage more than flame thrower (through the PTF skill) then it would be a choice left up to the player of superior single target damage OR an AoE.