Battle scout beats...

[Toraak]

ah, but it isn't superior. I've killed my share of t2 scouts on t1 strikes, GS's, Bombers (both types) and t2 Pikes. They are built for close range combat true, but Skill is the major difference in this game. No match I have ever seen has equal skill levels. My major point was that if this game is played properly you should always have 2 or more people targeting the same person. Does this happen often, no, but you should back up your team mates whenever they are being chased, so you and him can go on the offensive to kill that person.

[mr_sim]

I just want to note that I explicitly choose the Pike / Quell to fly when I know I'll be facing T2 scouts, because I know I can hunt and kill them that way.

 

There are a few pilots who can still reliably kill me in those matchups. The really good ones. But I will keep them busy for several minutes, during which they're not rampaging through the rest of my team. Also if several scouts gang up on me then I'll have trouble - but that's a tradeoff that's fine with me.

 

Fighting these ships depends on figuring out their weaknesses and then pressing on them relentlessly, and they do have weaknesses.

 

Rhodogast / Kelril, The Ebon Hawk

 

 

Yeah I'm the same way with my Missile Strike, it takes a couple to take me down mostly, Protorps FTW.

[Zoom_VI]

That's a terrible argument. If one ship is decidedly superior to every other, an armada of these ships would completely destroy a squadron comprised of anything else. Given the skill and coordination of both sides is equal, one side still has a decided advantage simply for choosing Flashfire/Sting at the opening screen.

 

I love scouts. I love playing scouts. But I also love playing other ships as well. Are people really so blind they can't see what this is going to lead to?

 

Its actually not a terrible argument. To beat my ground game analogy, deception assassins are the best 1v1 spec in game and win pretty much every 1v1 tournament. However for ranked the class struggles to be viable at all, and is nowhere near first pick for ranked.

 

GSF is a little bit different given that it doesn't run on the tank/heal/dps trilogy, but the principal applies, you don't need everything to be balanced 1v1 in order to balance the game as a whole.

[tommmsunb]

Where did you ever see this? The only other craft that even operates in the dogfighting area, is the strike, which is intended as a "jack of all trades, master of none" ship.

 

 

If you want to complain about evasion stacking or offensive cooldown stacking you should write threads about evasion stacking or offensive cooldown stacking instead of writing a thread that insinuates that the entire class is overpowered on principal.

 

 

The scamper nerf had nothing at all to do with the classes' 1v1 capability, rather it was due to how scamper broke every single objective based warzone. Besides deception assassins are the superior 1v1 class, and other than occasional QQ from bads, nobody has issues with them.

 

Holy crap, I'm agreeing with Crinn,

 

It's still very possible to lock down a scout, it's still very possible to kill a scout solo with a strike. It's also still possible to solo 5 people with a strike just like it is in a flashfire if you're good enough. But you don't hear people screaming nerf strikes because the people who you want to nerf aren't playing those ships as much as you see the scout.

[tommmsunb]

If you believe I need to do a study to tell you that the battle scout is generally the best at every imaginable dogfighting situation, get out..

 

Well quite frankly it's easy to test, you're just lazy and basing this entire QQ thread of off assumptions.

[SammyGStatus]

1) GS's can kill a t2 scout if it's a good pilot.

 

Nope - 9/10 times I will lose to Alex in his battle scout vs my GS. We've both logged a considerable amount of time in our GSs, and Alex has a lot of time in his scout. He will beat me not because we're on different skill levels (we're both "decent" pilots), but because the gunship has very little chance to survive the encounter for a few reasons that he's more able to describe.

Edited May 13, 2014 by SammyGStatus

[Kuciwalker]

Flashfires are a craft designed with the sole purpose of running a man-to-man offense and winning while doing so. Any good FF pilot will attempt to take a giant battle and separate it into a series of 1v1 duels which it can win at. B*tching about it being good at 1v1 dueling is hilarious since its that crafts sole purpose, you might as well go into the regular PvP forum and complain about stealth classes being too good at 1v1. Complaining about FF winning all the 1v1s is like complaining about gunships being to good at range or bombers being to good at support and area denial.

 

While this is all theoretically valid and I agree with it, the problem with having a distinctively "best 1v1" ship is that most of GSF is about 1v1.

 

As you observe, "Any good FF pilot will attempt to take a giant battle and separate it into a series of 1v1 duels". And of course that's legitimate strategy, just as much as any good gunship forcing a battle to be at 15km range. But for a Flashfire, turning the giant battle into a 1v1 is really easy because of its high burst damage (= low TTK), powerful defensive cooldowns, naturally high evasive defenses (statistical and manual), and high speed (lets it enter and leave the fight easily).

 

No other ship has nearly as much ability to force a fight to happen on its terms (except a bomber on the node in domination). Even the pre-BR nerf GS couldn't actually outrun a properly flown scout enough to force a battle on its terms.

 

And the fatal blow is this - battle scouts are also reasonably good at the other roles! They are good at killing turrets. They are pretty good at killing satellite orbiters. They are good in non-1v1 dogfighting. They are good against gunships. They are kind of mediocre against entrenched bombers, but even there they can fit enough damage into a 15s window to be useful.

 

For FF to deserve the degree of 1v1 superiority they have, several of the following need to be fixed:

 

1. They need to be worse at forcing the 1v1 - make it harder for them to escape unfavorable positions, or easier for other ships to escape the same.
   
2. Alternate version of (1): make their defensive cooldowns less useful against people they aren't attacking. Imagine a Flashfire finds itself in a 2v1 against two strike fighters. The FF is attacking strike A and being attacked by strike B (and possibly A as well). Right now distortion field can give the FF a crucial window of very high defenses against both strikes, during which it can score a kill on A and then fly evasively. If the Flashfire didn't have distortion field it would be far more vulnerable to strike B.
   
3. They need to be far, far worse at other roles, to the degree that they are only barely viable. A good start would be removing armor pen from BLC (and maybe even rockets!).
   
4. The roles at which they are mediocre need to become much more important to the game. For example, a game mode against enemy capital ships that can't be killed with burst damage alone.
   

[Kuciwalker]

1. Alternate version of (1): make their defensive cooldowns less useful against people they aren't attacking. Imagine a Flashfire finds itself in a 2v1 against two strike fighters. The FF is attacking strike A and being attacked by strike B (and possibly A as well). Right now distortion field can give the FF a crucial window of very high defenses against both strikes, during which it can score a kill on A and then fly evasively. If the Flashfire didn't have distortion field it would be far more vulnerable to strike B.
   

 

Serious idea: remove distortion from T2 scout, replace with feedback shield (refund requisition, sure). Probably buff feedback shield a bit. Feedback shield, properly tuned, could actually be pretty useful in 1v1, but it would be a lot less useful in 2v1 because the damage splash wouldn't increase your dps on target.

 

This would also mitigate evasion stacking on the T2 and be somewhat thematically appropriate: the T1 scout would now truly be the "speed/evasion scout".

[mr_sim]

While this is all theoretically valid and I agree with it, the problem with having a distinctively "best 1v1" ship is that most of GSF is about 1v1.

 

As you observe, "Any good FF pilot will attempt to take a giant battle and separate it into a series of 1v1 duels". And of course that's legitimate strategy, just as much as any good gunship forcing a battle to be at 15km range. But for a Flashfire, turning the giant battle into a 1v1 is really easy because of its high burst damage (= low TTK), powerful defensive cooldowns, naturally high evasive defenses (statistical and manual), and high speed (lets it enter and leave the fight easily).

 

No other ship has nearly as much ability to force a fight to happen on its terms (except a bomber on the node in domination). Even the pre-BR nerf GS couldn't actually outrun a properly flown scout enough to force a battle on its terms.

 

Edit:

Serious idea: remove distortion from T2 scout, replace with feedback shield (refund requisition, sure). Probably buff feedback shield a bit. Feedback shield, properly tuned, could actually be pretty useful in 1v1, but it would be a lot less useful in 2v1 because the damage splash wouldn't increase your dps on target.

 

This would also mitigate evasion stacking on the T2 and be somewhat thematically appropriate: the T1 scout would now truly be the "speed/evasion scout".

 

I don't think BW will open the precedent of trying to refund requisition. Something would have to be seriously broken for them to do that. I don't think anything is quite that bad though.

And the fatal blow is this - battle scouts are also reasonably good at the other roles! They are good at killing turrets. They are pretty good at killing satellite orbiters. They are good in non-1v1 dogfighting. They are good against gunships. They are kind of mediocre against entrenched bombers, but even there they can fit enough damage into a 15s window to be useful.

 

For FF to deserve the degree of 1v1 superiority they have, several of the following need to be fixed:

 

1. They need to be worse at forcing the 1v1 - make it harder for them to escape unfavorable positions, or easier for other ships to escape the same.
   
2. Alternate version of (1): make their defensive cooldowns less useful against people they aren't attacking. Imagine a Flashfire finds itself in a 2v1 against two strike fighters. The FF is attacking strike A and being attacked by strike B (and possibly A as well). Right now distortion field can give the FF a crucial window of very high defenses against both strikes, during which it can score a kill on A and then fly evasively. If the Flashfire didn't have distortion field it would be far more vulnerable to strike B.
   
3. They need to be far, far worse at other roles, to the degree that they are only barely viable. A good start would be removing armor pen from BLC (and maybe even rockets!).
   
4. The roles at which they are mediocre need to become much more important to the game. For example, a game mode against enemy capital ships that can't be killed with burst damage alone.
   

 

I believe you an I are of a same mind on Battle Scouts. In fact this idea of scout do it all came out way back in the day in my thread "is it me, are scouts OP?" one of the longest threads in this forum.

 

I think we got distracted by all the new shinny ships and maps that came out but, We seem to be back to the scout problem finally.

 

My idea for DF has always been to make it nerf the users offense(accuracy) so it becomes an escape CD only and not being used offensively as it has been.

 

Back in the day when we were all discussing what class should be doing what, every time the Scouts said "on it." I've seen scout jocks say "Scouts are the best turret killers" and I'm all "*** BioWare, why are there Strike Fighters again?" They were wrong of course mastered HLC is the best turret killer but the fact remained that scouts had no difficulty getting the job done.

 

Yes loose ignore armor on BLC. I think we need to keep it on Rockets for the Speed Scout sake though.

 

Also I fully agree we need an Assult mode where Scouts are fail at objectives.

 

Edit:

Serious idea: remove distortion from T2 scout, replace with feedback shield (refund requisition, sure). Probably buff feedback shield a bit. Feedback shield, properly tuned, could actually be pretty useful in 1v1, but it would be a lot less useful in 2v1 because the damage splash wouldn't increase your dps on target.

 

This would also mitigate evasion stacking on the T2 and be somewhat thematically appropriate: the T1 scout would now truly be the "speed/evasion scout".

 

I don't BioWare will open the precedent of refunding Requisition. Something would have to be seriously broken to do that.

Edited May 13, 2014 by mr_sim

[General_Brass]

Serious idea: remove distortion from T2 scout, replace with feedback shield (refund requisition, sure). Probably buff feedback shield a bit. Feedback shield, properly tuned, could actually be pretty useful in 1v1, but it would be a lot less useful in 2v1 because the damage splash wouldn't increase your dps on target.

 

This would also mitigate evasion stacking on the T2 and be somewhat thematically appropriate: the T1 scout would now truly be the "speed/evasion scout".

 

Great you do realize you have just increased the advantage teams have over solo players ? Seeing as teams vs pugs have nearly 100% expectation of winning just what purpose does that serve ?

[JeepWithGuy]

Great you do realize you have just increased the advantage teams have over solo players ? Seeing as teams vs pugs have nearly 100% expectation of winning just what purpose does that serve ?

If teams win 100% of the time now...and their advantage increases...wouldn't it still be 100%? Math question or trick question?

[Zoom_VI]

Serious idea: remove distortion from T2 scout, replace with feedback shield (refund requisition, sure). Probably buff feedback shield a bit. Feedback shield, properly tuned, could actually be pretty useful in 1v1, but it would be a lot less useful in 2v1 because the damage splash wouldn't increase your dps on target.

 

This would also mitigate evasion stacking on the T2 and be somewhat thematically appropriate: the T1 scout would now truly be the "speed/evasion scout".

 

I as a scout pilot would be fine with this. Dogfighting is a 1v1 game, if you allow it to become 1v2 you should die for your stupidity.

 

Also I fully agree we need an Assult mode where Scouts are fail at objectives.

There should never be any mode where any class fails at the objectives of the mode. There are many pilots who only ever fly one ship, and alienating them on particular maps because your too lazy to properly balance the game is stupid.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Kuciwalker]

Great you do realize you have just increased the advantage teams have over solo players ? Seeing as teams vs pugs have nearly 100% expectation of winning just what purpose does that serve ?

 

1. This is a ridiculous complaint to make about multiplayer team pvp. We've been over this already.
   
2. By definition anything that makes 1v1 less important helps teams. If you don't want your game to give an advantage to teams then the necessary consequence is that a "best 1v1" ship will also be the best ship, period.
   

[mr_sim]

I

There should never be any mode where any class fails at the objectives of the mode. There are many pilots who only ever fly one ship, and alienating them on particular maps because your too lazy to properly balance the game is stupid.

 

Calm down Crinn I said "Fail at objectives" not be completely useless in game mode.

 

In Assault mode Scouts Don't loose purpose. In fact they actually gain a class specific purpose they never truly had before. Interceptors. The heavies get to pound objectives while the scouts pound out the Heavies.

 

You get a team full of scout pilots in assault mode well sucks to be you. If there is one consistent theme in this game the developer seems to strive for it's: Diversity(class/build) = win. We see that goal behind every single change in the ground game. There always have been players who try to shoe horn a class and it usually takes an extremely good player to successfully do so.

[General_Brass]

1. This is a ridiculous complaint to make about multiplayer team pvp. We've been over this already.
   
2. By definition anything that makes 1v1 less important helps teams. If you don't want your game to give an advantage to teams then the necessary consequence is that a "best 1v1" ship will also be the best ship, period.
   

 

It would be ridiculous if there were separate team and solo queues but there aren't. As long as this is the case the game has to favor 1v1. As things stand premades have an insane amount of advantage in the game and anything that increases it will just alienate more players.

[Ramalina]

It would be ridiculous if there were separate team and solo queues but there aren't. As long as this is the case the game has to favor 1v1. As things stand premades have an insane amount of advantage in the game and anything that increases it will just alienate more players.

 

No the game doesn't have to favor 1 v 1. That would mean that if two people shot at the same target at the same time their efforts would cancel each other out.

 

You also wouldn't have things like: wingman, running interference, repair probes, repair drone, combat command, shield projector, ect.

 

The design intent is very clearly to both encourage and reward team play.

 

Problems with solo queuing means that the player needs to work on their mastery of how to use chat channels, the invite to group command, and learn where the queue as group dialog box is in the hangar interface. It's a L2P issue in much the same way that not equipping a main hand weapon is a L2P issue in the ground game. Or getting crushed when you try to solo a HM 55 flashpoint because you don't have at the very least a tank and a healer.

 

I solo queue myself a fair bit, but I'm not under any delusion that GSF is designed for, or should be designed for, an excellent solo play experience. Just because it's relatively solo friendly group content doesn't make it solo content.

[General_Brass]

I solo queue myself a fair bit, but I'm not under any delusion that GSF is designed for, or should be designed for, an excellent solo play experience. Just because it's relatively solo friendly group content doesn't make it solo content.

 

There's a giant difference between an excellent solo experience and an intolerable experience. As things stand now the game overwhelmingly pisses off players that solo queue and it depends on those people. If they don't queue the teams have no one to fight against end of story.

 

So yes shift the balance to favor teams even more, the few people left may get an hour a day when they can get a match.

Edited May 13, 2014 by General_Brass

[Devrius]

There's a giant difference between an excellent solo experience and an intolerable experience. As things stand now the game overwhelmingly pisses off players that solo queue and it depends on those people. If they don't queue the teams have no one to fight against end of story.

 

So yes shift the balance to favor teams even more, the few people left may get an hour a day when they can get a match.

 

Unless you mean that one ace will no longer have access to an OP T2 scout to carry a bunch of noobs against a premade, I don't see how more balance to GSF will hurt solo play and make teams more powerful.

 

It's a team game, a ship shouldn't be over powered.

[Verain]

It's not even worth responding to an accusation like "battle scouts make the game tolerable against premades".

 

 

That doesn't even begin to make sense. Just let it go.

[General_Brass]

It's not even worth responding to an accusation like "battle scouts make the game tolerable against premades".

 

 

That doesn't even begin to make sense. Just let it go.

 

Scouts have the option of declining battle once engaged, the only other ship that has a chance of engaging and getting away from a team when it decides to focus on it and gunships and possibly the new strike fighter with tensor field( I have not tested this personally but have seen people use this to good effect)

 

So yes as things stand the scouts are the way for solo players to get a little joy from bad team situations, You can scoot in get your kill and have a chance to get out. You probably won't turn the tide or even have a favorable kill to death ratio but at least you won't be stuck like a bug on flypaper playing target drone.

[tunewalker]

Scouts have the option of declining battle once engaged, the only other ship that has a chance of engaging and getting away from a team when it decides to focus on it and gunships and possibly the new strike fighter with tensor field( I have not tested this personally but have seen people use this to good effect)

 

So yes as things stand the scouts are the way for solo players to get a little joy from bad team situations, You can scoot in get your kill and have a chance to get out. You probably won't turn the tide or even have a favorable kill to death ratio but at least you won't be stuck like a bug on flypaper playing target drone.

 

nerfing scouts damage capacity or their survival when they arent running away doesnt stop a scout pilot from being able to come in and out of a fight.

[General_Brass]

nerfing scouts damage capacity or their survival when they arent running away doesnt stop a scout pilot from being able to come in and out of a fight.

 

Well nerfing their survival certainly does, nerfing their ability to do damage just makes hit and run attacks pointless.

Edited May 14, 2014 by General_Brass

[tunewalker]

Well nerfing their survival certainly does, nerfing their ability to do damage just makes hit and run attacks pointless.

 

No hit and run is still good, its called attrition. You wont be able to go in and bring some one from full to dead and run with multiple people on your tail, instead you are the first responder you go in hit them hard enough for your second responders who can take hits to finish.

 

Of course you could still kill if left alone but, if you had same defense weaker burst, attrition war fair isnt Go in killl a guy get focused and leave, its go in get a guy low and leave, come back when your defenses are up and do it again.

 

Believe it or not this is what strike's do right now, but with less ability to get out, weaker CD's for defense and lacking any of hte burst potential.

 

Burst potential changed then scouts would still have an easier time getting out and more defense when CD's are on but Less Defense when the CD's arent there. Which is when they get out any way. The style doesnt change only the fact that they are TO GOOD at it. Attrition is still attrition.

Edited May 14, 2014 by tunewalker

[General_Brass]

No hit and run is still good, its called attrition. You wont be able to go in and bring some one from full to dead and run with multiple people on your tail, instead you are the first responder you go in hit them hard enough for your second responders who can take hits to finish.

 

Of course you could still kill if left alone but, if you had same defense weaker burst, attrition war fair isnt Go in killl a guy get focused and leave, its go in get a guy low and leave, come back when your defenses are up and do it again.

 

Believe it or not this is what strike's do right now, but with less ability to get out, weaker CD's for defense and lacking any of hte burst potential.

 

Burst potential changed then scouts would still have an easier time getting out and more defense when CD's are on but Less Defense when the CD's arent there. Which is when they get out any way. The style doesnt change only the fact that they are TO GOOD at it. Attrition is still attrition.

 

I am sorry but attrition against teams with healers is pointless. Really the game needs more ways to nullify team advantage for the people who want to stick with a bad battle and make the effort.

[Zoom_VI]

No hit and run is still good, its called attrition. You wont be able to go in and bring some one from full to dead and run with multiple people on your tail, instead you are the first responder you go in hit them hard enough for your second responders who can take hits to finish.

 

Except attrition isn't viable. Kills now will always be greater than kills later. Especially in Dominion where you have less than 20 seconds to clear a node and begin capping before the reinforcements arrive.