Solutions to issues faced by Carnage/Combat

[scylence]

Have you ever played Ops/Scound because it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about? And nobody every comes out of stealth with a CC opener (at least not any good player I know). That's a complete waste of a CC. And Op/Scounds have waaaay more than 1 stun. They are the masters of CC.

 

huh?

 

You are telling me sins/shadow you know don't open with spike from stealth? scapps/conceals that dont open with hidden strike?

 

Ops/Scounds have basically had 2 stuns now have 1. One on Hidden strike (only useable while in stealth but now is a root), and Debilitate (4s)

Then they have 2 Mezzes (break on damage)... one single target from stealth, and one AOE (flash bang)

and then 1 snare/root

 

Sins/Shadows have basically the same amount except no AOE mez, but they do have a single target mez with a low cd, but they also have a knockback

 

 

anways... this is supposed to be about combat/carnage

Edited May 9, 2014 by scylence

[chosonman]

huh?

You are telling me sins/shadow you know don't open with spike from stealth?

 

Ask yourself this "Why would you need to?"

[chosonman]

huh?

 

anways... this is supposed to be about combat/carnage

 

Yea someone was QQ about how Sentinels/Mara opener would be OP with unstoppable. The point was, Sin/Shadow, Op/Scoundrel's openers are already pretty devastating and the Mara/Sent opener probably wouldn't be much different. as it should be. As of now, Sent/Mara openers is pretty pathetic since as soon as you get in close enough you get CC, Stunned, Rooted before you can get anything off and by the time you're in position again you've lost all your procs.

Edited May 9, 2014 by chosonman

[foxmob]

Ask yourself this "Why would you need to?"

 

because it buffs your dmg to the stunned target. 6% dmg buff

 

edit: and a stunned target cannot activate dcds

Edited May 9, 2014 by foxmob

[chosonman]

because it buffs your dmg to the stunned target.

 

So you burn a CC just to get a small buff in damage? You guys make me chuckle. (BTW that buff will still be there when you actually need to use it)...

[foxmob]

So you burn a CC just to get a small buff in damage? You guys make me chuckle. (BTW that buff will still be there when you actually need to use it)...

 

and...you want him to break it. then you can longer CC him. but if he doesn't break it? so what. you do more dmg.

[scylence]

Ask yourself this "Why would you need to?"

 

Not only do you get a damage buff.... but its only useable in stealth unless you are heavy in the tank tree. Therefore why would you NOT use it as an opener from stealth?

If I ever restealth when spike is on CD I use low slash as an opener unless the target has full resolve. Both give duplicity procs as well (Spike and low slash)

Edited May 9, 2014 by scylence

[chosonman]

and...you want him to break it. then you can longer CC him. but if he doesn't break it? so what. you do more dmg.

 

huh? I think you need to take a break from the keyboard. You're starting to stutter while you type. Besides I probably fed you more information than I should have. That's enough PVP 101 for now. Ta ta.

[MusicRider]

I just want to provide a few numbers about two suggestions that have been made.

• Suggestion 1: Improve rage management
  
• Suggestion 2: Remove completely RNG
  

 

Sole purpose is to provide the numbers without drawing any conclusions. I leave these to you. So here we go.

 

Preliminary stuff

So looking at the highest parse of a combat sentinel as found in this thread.

 

Relevant variable values:

 

• Duration: D = 4min 17s = 257s
  
• DPS = 3892.71
  
• Number of gores: Gn = 44
  
• Number of force screams: FSn = 21
  
• Max number of force screams within fight duration: FSnmax = 28
  
• Average damage of force scream per hit: FSa = 9315
  
• Crit hits of FS: FSc = 100%
  
• Number of massacres: Mn = 105
  
• Average damage of massacre per hit: Ma = 1640
  
• Number of ataru form strikes: ATn = 148
  
• Number of ataru form strikes not proced by massacre: ATnother = 43 (underestimate as does not include possible second ataru strike)
  
• Average damage of ataru form strike = 878
  
• Average damage of massacre+ataru per hit: Maa = 2518
  
• Number of assaults: An = 136
  
• Average damage of assault per hit: Aa = 501
  
• Average damage of assault+ataru using "I take all remaining atarus" per hit (leads to oversimate):
  Aaa = (93*501+43*(501+878))/136 = 778
  

 

Suggestion 1: Improve rage management

Doing as such, it means that a number of assaults would be replaced by massacres. Now the damage difference between the two abilities is:

 

Maa - Aa = 2518 - 778 = 1800

 

So what would happen if there was a complete idiotic rage management where you never needed to use assault but instead massacre.... there would be an extra:

1800 x 136 = 244800 damage or 244800/257 = 952 extra DPS bringing the total DPS = 4844 (actually higher cause there are more ataru form strikes now)

 

What if there was such force management that allows 5, 10, 25, 50 percent of assaults (136 in number) to be replaced with massacres. The total dps would be then (in parenthesis rounded number of assaults replaced by massacres):

 

DPS = 3892

5% (7): DPS = 3939

10% (14): DPS = 3987

25% (34): DPS = 4130

50% (68): DPS = 4368

100% (136): DPS = 4844

 

 

Remove completely RNG of execute

Next time.

 

EDIT:

Highest parses

Scoundrel - Scrapper - Raulos - 4104.75 DPS (100%)

Mercenary - Pyro - Pizza'da'hutt - 4101.15 DPS(99.9%)

Sentinel - Dotsmash - El'ethon - 4002.21 DPS (97.5%)

Sentinel - Combat - TrillOG - 3869.84 DPS (94.3%)

Guardian - Vigilance - Kishekzun - 3865.76 DPS (94.2%)

Gunslinger - DF - Lunagazer - 3805.25 DPS (92.7%)

Sage - Telekinetics - Jurbsy - 3692.5 DPS (90.0%)

Vanguard - Assault - Tal'ii - 3655.55 DPS (89.1%)

Shadow - Balance - M-knightrider - 3636.25 DPS (88.6%)

Edited May 9, 2014 by MusicRider

[foxmob]

huh? I think you need to take a break from the keyboard. You're starting to stutter while you type. Besides I probably fed you more information than I should have. That's enough PVP 101 for now. Ta ta.

 

not likely. but there's no point discussing the issue since all you're going to do is insult me.

[chosonman]

not likely. but there's no point discussing the issue since all you're going to do is insult me.

 

Sorry don't mean to be insulting. But that's as much as I'm going to talk about when it comes to my strategies.

[L-RANDLE]

2s KB prot on every leap is enough. It gives enough time to get the burst setup done but still make the heaviest hits interrupt-able (last hit of ravage and scream etc). You can still be stunned right away too, since its only KB prot.

 

Also with my suggestions and the ones I am getting in this thread, some of the other abilities like UR would have built in CC breaks, etc.

 

Unstoppable would be perfect for the spec if no other buffs/QoL changes were included, and would not be overpowered, but I am sure judging by the number of trolls (which I have on ignore) that posted after you, you stirred up a troll storm. A storm where I am sure at least one has claimed by now, that they can either global someone easily, or kill any class at any time in 3s consistently, but will never provide evidence (key words *anytime*, *consistently*) and that you need to "L2P"

 

There is a difference between trolling someone and telling them their idea is dumb as hell. I know you are the type to take people off ignore just to read what they say, so I"ll explain again and maybe you understand why its dumb as hell.

 

 

Carnies are about as close to being root/snare immune as you can get.

 

Camo-Anti-Root, + speed boost(anti-snare).

Stance- Speed boost(Anti-Snare)

Predation- Speed Boost(Anti-Snare)

 

On top of this add kite prevention, which is almost as good as having more root/snare defense:

DT-Root

DST-Snare

CT-Snare

RAV-Root

FC-Root

 

Add in CC break-

UN- breaks all cc(use on hard stuns, or situationally on Mezz)

 

Now add AntiCC to all of that...

 

Basically the definition of this class if you give them this is PERMAFULL RESOLVE. Not only will it be damn near impossible to CC, this doesn't even account for the actual resolve mechanics. Now please put up Jugg CC defenses, and you will find out, it ain't even close.

 

Stop suggesting it wouldn't be OP.

Edited May 10, 2014 by L-RANDLE

[funkiestj]

Have you ever played Ops/Scound because it doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about? And nobody every comes out of stealth with a CC opener (at least not any good player I know). That's a complete waste of a CC.

 

Hidden strike is now a root, not a stun. You can pop your DCDs without having to use your CC breaker. You can stun the operative who opens on you without CC breaking first.

 

Changing Hidden strike from a knockdown (stun) to a root was the last batch of combat changes if I recall correctly.

 

so shadows, who still have their knockdown opener, are definitely a different category than DPS operatives who do not.

 

Given that the operative is in melee range when he does hidden strike, being rooted is not a big deal. E.g. if you are sage/sorc healer you can force speed (egress) to break root, right?

 

And Op/Scounds have waaaay more than 1 stun. They are the masters of CC.

 

It is not like it is a big number. Lets count ...

1. hard stun (kick in the balls, everyone has one of these)
   
2. flashbang -instant AoE mezz (guardian / juggs have one of these, shadows have not equivalent, shadows and other classes get a cast single target mezz)
   
3. sap (mezz only from stealth, shadow has this, requires in combat stealth which can be countered by DOTs. Good for heal to full in 1v1).
   
4. grenade (everyone should have these)
   

 

Question to you expert DPS shadow/scoundrels: if you are dotted up and can't cleanse, can you still reliably steath / sap / heal to full in a 1v1 fight?

 

So, scoundrels are better off than shadows in the CC department (instant mezz vs cast) but shadows still have a knockdown (stun) opener and scoundrel / operatives do not.

Edited May 9, 2014 by funkiestj

[scylence]

Hidden strike is now a root, not a stun. You can pop your DCDs without having to use your CC breaker. You can stun the operative who opens on you without CC breaking first.

 

Changing Hidden strike from a knockdown (stun) to a root was the last batch of combat changes if I recall correctly.

 

so shadows, who still have their knockdown opener, are definitely a different category than DPS operatives who do not.

 

Given that the operative is in melee range when he does hidden strike, being rooted is not a big deal. E.g. if you are sage/sorc healer you can force speed (egress) to break root, right?

 

 

 

It is not like it is a big number. Lets count ...

1. hard stun (kick in the balls, everyone has one of these)
   
2. flashbang -instant AoE mezz (guardian / juggs have one of these, shadows have not equivalent, shadows and other classes get a cast single target mezz)
   
3. sap (mezz only from stealth, shadow has this, requires in combat stealth which can be countered by DOTs. Good for heal to full in 1v1).
   
4. grenade (everyone should have these)
   

 

Question to you expert DPS shadow/scoundrels: if you are dotted up and can't cleanse, can you still reliably steath / sap / heal to full in a 1v1 fight?

 

So, scoundrels are better off than shadows in the CC department (instant mezz vs cast) but shadows still have a knockdown (stun) opener and scoundrel / operatives do not.

 

Shadows/Sins have a castable mez (that can be used at anytime), a low cd mez (low slash), and an insta cast from stealth mez.

 

So Shadows/Sins win on CC department actually, but Scoundrels/Ops can cleanse some things, some it cannot. Shadows/Sins cant really cleanse anything

[MusicRider]

Shadows/Sins cant really cleanse anything

What? Lol.

[funkiestj]

Shadows/Sins have a castable mez (that can be used at anytime), a low cd mez (low slash), and an insta cast from stealth mez.

 

So Shadows/Sins win on CC department actually, but Scoundrels/Ops can cleanse some things, some it cannot. Shadows/Sins cant really cleanse anything

 

Since we are talking about DPS scouperative they can only cleanse tech and physical, so unless they are

the cleanse is mostly useless.

 

OK, that's not really true but I wanted to link to that youtube video ... scoundrel cleanse is good against troopers and other smugglers but not against force user DOTs.

 

 

 

What? Lol.

 

A Shadow's resilience is a defensive cooldown, not a cleanse (cooldown 60 sec). Triage (the scoundrel's cleanse) has a 4.5s cooldown hence we call it a cleanse, not a DCD.

 

healing operatives can cleanse mental effects too (psych meds talent)

[scylence]

Since we are talking about DPS scouperative they can only cleanse tech and physical, so unless they are

the cleanse is mostly useless.

 

OK, that's not really true but I wanted to link to that youtube video ... scoundrel cleanse is good against troopers and other smugglers but not against force user DOTs.

 

 

 

 

 

A Shadow's resilience is a defensive cooldown, not a cleanse (cooldown 60 sec). Triage (the scoundrel's cleanse) has a 4.5s cooldown hence we call it a cleanse, not a DCD.

 

healing operatives can cleanse mental effects too (psych meds talent)

 

Yep, that is why I said it can cleanse some, and some it cannot

Edited May 10, 2014 by scylence

[MusicRider]

Since we are talking about DPS scouperative they can only cleanse tech and physical, so unless they are

the cleanse is mostly useless.

 

OK, that's not really true but I wanted to link to that youtube video ... scoundrel cleanse is good against troopers and other smugglers but not against force user DOTs.

What? Add lethality snipers and annihilation marauders to your list. Force cleansers can't cleanse anymore the most powerful force dots from madness. But hey they can evade an auto-crit turbulence.... yayyy

 

 

 

A Shadow's resilience is a defensive cooldown, not a cleanse (cooldown 60 sec). Triage (the scoundrel's cleanse) has a 4.5s cooldown hence we call it a cleanse, not a DCD.

My reply was to the statement "sins can't cleanse anything"... so it still stands. What? LOL

[foxmob]

yeah. sins can use shroud as a cleanse. just as snipers can use dodge. so can ops, but ops have an actual cleanse, so it's not as "fish out of water" sort of a thing. I'm pretty sure that's what music's lul'ing about

[Cretinus]

Yea, what about Ops and Sins that open up stealthed stun and and take you down to almost nothing before you have a chance to do anything? Andmost classes have escape moves (speed, CC Break, rolls) so the chances of a Mara taking you down in the first attempt will be slim at best.

 

On my sorc, I'll die to about 50% to ops, and to more than 50% to assas, who open from stealth.

If a marauder manages to come close and my barrier is on CD (which it mostly is in WZs) then I'm usually dead. If it's a decent marauder (contrary to what is to be expected), then even with barrier out of CD I'll be dead.

Give them marauders unstoppable and sorcs can delete their toons.

 

BTW this new "give-marauders-unstoppable" QQ must be the most self-entitled whining we ever had in the forums. People screaming that their AC should also get goodies that have been tailored for its sister AC, wotafock? Unstoppable is supposed to give juggs more uptime because they can't produce the sort of burst that marauders can, as frequently as marauders can. Marauders don't need more uptime, they have more than enough for the burst that they can output.

 

It's already easier to fight a jugg then a marauder, at least for a sorc with DoT specc. Give marauders unstoppable and juggs will cry for nukes to close the gap to marauders.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Cretinus

[waterboytkd]

[*]hard stun (kick in the balls, everyone has one of these)

 

I just thought it was funny/ironic that someone makes this comment in a thread about Maras/Sents.

 

EDIT:

 

BTW this new "give-marauders-unstoppable" QQ must be the most self-entitled whining we ever had in the forums. People screaming that their AC should also get goodies that have been tailored for its sister AC, wotafock? Unstoppable is supposed to give juggs more uptime because they can't produce the sort of burst that marauders can, as frequently as marauders can. Marauders don't need more uptime, they have more than enough for the burst that they can output.

This.

 

I've noticed that prior to smash nerf, there was very little attention given to Carnage/Combat. Now, these threads are all over the place. Carnage/Combat doesn't NEED anything. A QoL shift to get rid of the rng would be nice, but it's not necessary.

 

The only thing Carnage/Combat NEEDS is something that the whole AC needs: a revamp on UR/GbtF. Right now, the ability is crap. Well, it's decent in 1v1 situations, but beyond that, It's just a "give me 4 more seconds so I can get a kill before I die", because its use is almost always followed by a death.

 

If the idea is that it's not supposed to play well with healing, then make it block incoming healing, but lose the hp loss. If the hp loss stays, then it NEEDS to return to its previous functionality (hp loss on activation, not end of duration).

Edited May 10, 2014 by waterboytkd

[scylence]

I just thought it was funny/ironic that someone makes this comment in a thread about Maras/Sents.

 

true heh, it would be nice if Mara had access to the Force Grip talent so we could get a hard stun

[Cretinus]

... If the idea is that it's not supposed to play well with healing, then make it block incoming healing, but lose the hp loss. If the hp loss stays, then it NEEDS to return to its previous functionality (hp loss on activation, not end of duration).

 

Hmm... I actually believe that to kill a lot AND to get killed a lot is how marauders are supposed to work. It's a trade. Nobody else can produce the kind of burst that marauders can with gore + berserk + ravage etc. The other side of the coin is that they don't last forever. I can't see anything wrong with that. If it doesn't suit one, one can play jugg instead. Jugg lasts longer at the cost of having less kill potantial. It's the same trade, seen from the opposite side.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Cretinus

[L-RANDLE]

BTW this new "give-marauders-unstoppable" QQ must be the most self-entitled whining we ever had in the forums. People screaming that their AC should also get goodies that have been tailored for its sister AC, wotafock? Unstoppable is supposed to give juggs more uptime because they can't produce the sort of burst that marauders can, as frequently as marauders can. Marauders don't need more uptime, they have more than enough for the burst that they can output.

 

It's already easier to fight a jugg then a marauder, at least for a sorc with DoT specc. Give marauders unstoppable and juggs will cry for nukes to close the gap to marauders.

 

While I agree on most of this, you have to keep in mind that our downtime is the problem. A simple fix. We need a Rage increase when cc'd. For too often, AFTER we are cc'd we are forced into Rage management, instead of spamming in the hopes(aka RNG) to burst on people. This is where the problem lies. Its the sustained damage that suffers because of piss poor Rage refunds, and having to "wait" to burst on people.

 

MusicRider posted some parses. They show that even a slight change in a rage return on CC would make this class damn near perfect for the playstyle required.

[waterboytkd]

Hmm... I actually believe that to kill a lot AND to get killed a lot is how marauders are supposed to work. It's a trade. Nobody else can produce the kind of burst that marauders can with gore + berserk + ravage etc. The other side of the coin is that they don't last forever. I can't see anything wrong with that. If it doesn't suit one, one can play jugg instead. Jugg lasts longer at the cost of having less kill potantial. It's the same trade, seen from the opposite side.

 

I don't disagree with this premise. In that respect, a possible change for UR/GbtF is to really enforce the idea that you pop it to get a kill, then die.

 

What if it did this: when you use it, it consumes 50% of your current health, and for 4 seconds, it absorbs 100% of incoming damage AND healing. BUT, while it's going, whenever you hit an enemy with a direct attack, you apply a 2 second debuff to that enemy that prevents 100% of incoming heals.

 

With the downsides, as it eats hp on use, it's easier for enemies to see. As it prevents all incoming healing, the Sent/Mara really is on their own for its duration. It's still just as vulnerable to stuns as currently live.

 

The new perk (debuffed enemies can't be healed for a very short duration) means that when you pop it, you really are forcing an enemy into a 1v1 situation (though, tanks can still help the opponent). And when you're fighting healers, it's better than a 1v1 situation. This would make the ability almost offensive rather than defensive, and would be a good healer or tank buster ability.

 

Again, the susceptibility to stuns is the hard counter to this ability.

 

Just an idea.

Edited May 10, 2014 by waterboytkd