Is SWTOR still canon?

[AdrianDmitruk]

https://twitter.com/jenheddle/status/459804317357076480

 

KOTOR is out, for example. TOR may be a different thing, though. She says upcoming content would be canon, SWTOR is an ongoing story. Wonder how that works out.

 

Can someone who actually has a Twitter account (I don't agree to social media TOS and etc.) ask if SWTOR will be kept canon under the "moving forward" from this tweet? After all the game is ongoing, therefore "going forward" unless they literally yank the license.

 

Jennifer Heddle ‏@jenheddle Apr 25

 

@joeyintucson Movies, Rebels, Clone Wars, and all content (books, games, etc) moving forward. But EU still exists as a resource.

[Beniboybling]

There seem to be (at least) two main lines of thinking on what the Legends imprint means:

 

1) Everything in the EU is now subject to being overwritten by new works, but until they are actually contradicted/overwritten by future "Canon" works, the existing EU works still count as part of the Universe. (This is the theory as to why SWTOR is safe, because it is so far removed from the movies that it is not likely to be overwritten.)

 

2) Everything in the EU has now been relegated to an Alternate Universe, only things that are actively imported by future "Canon" works will count as part of that Universe. (This is the Theory that until a Canon novel, show or movie actively says "there was a war between the Sith and Republic 3600 years before the Battle of Yavin" no such conflict actually exists in the Universe.)

 

From reading the press release and twitter messages, I'm pretty sure Theory #2 is correct.

 

The Marvel Cinematic Universe is another example of a property where one writers "have full access to the rich content" of previous lore: the Marvel Comics. What that means is that a lot of times we see everything from a quick "nod and a wink" to the Comics Universe (like telling SHIELD that Thor's name is 'Donald Blake') to lifting full storylines from it (like Captain America's origin).

 

But the Cinematic Universe canon does not assume that things from the comics happened until they are contradicted. Just because nothing has said Hawkeye wasn't a member of the Circus of Crime as a kid, doesn't mean that it's part of his backstory in the movies.

 

Pretty sure the Legends are as much a part of the new Canon as the Marvel Comics stories are a part of the Marvel Movies.

The difference between 1 and 2 is solely a matter of perspective. You call it an Alternate Universe, I call it the EU. If there is a contradiction between the two we consider is retconned, the cohesive universe lives on no matter which.

 

You can still hold that Darth Plagueis was apprenticed to Darth Tenebrous unless the canon directly contradicts that which has always and will continue to be the case. Nothing is stopping you from considering the universe cohesive.

 

Really GameSpot has the perspective right on the matter.

[JediMasterAlex]

This is Lucasfilm policy, the EU is part of continuity and this announcement does not change that.

 

Again, you have no evidence to support this.

 

The fact that we're playing the equivalent of an HBO dramatization of history

 

How is that a fact? Prior to the recent announcement, this was not the case. Now, that may very well be a fact, and it would propel me to stop playing the game.

[JediMasterAlex]

You can still hold that Darth Plagueis was apprenticed to Darth Tenebrous unless the canon directly contradicts that which has always and will continue to be the case. Nothing is stopping you from considering the universe cohesive.

 

I profoundly disagree. Either the events of Darth Plagueis happened in the Universe, or they didn't. I don't care whether they are contradicted or not.

[Beniboybling]

Again, you have no evidence to support this.

My evidence is the fact that nowhere is it stated in this announcement that this is not the case. They have said that it is not canon but if you understand the definition you'll know that that does not mean not part of continuity. Unless they state this we should assume that the EU is the same as it was before. We also have this statement from LucasFilm:

 

"[A]s far as The Old Republic MMO is concerned, nothing is going to change. [TOR] has always been a part of the Expanded Universe, and that's not going to change."

 

The Expanded Universe still exists. If we are going to talk about proof, provide the statement that says it doesn't.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

I profoundly disagree. Either the events of Darth Plagueis happened in the Universe, or they didn't. I don't care whether they are contradicted or not.

It's till part of the Expanded Universe. No one is telling you it didn't happen.

[JediMasterAlex]

My evidence is the fact that nowhere is it stated in this announcement that this is not the case. They have said that it is not canon but if you understand the definition you'll know that that does not mean not part of continuity. Unless they state this we should assume that the EU is the same as it was before. We also have this statement from LucasFilm:

 

"[A]s far as The Old Republic MMO is concerned, nothing is going to change. [TOR] has always been a part of the Expanded Universe, and that's not going to change."

 

The Expanded Universe still exists.

 

But there is a big difference going forward. Previously, all Star Wars material was essentially consistent, and you could see continuity between the Old Republic era and post-rotj material, for example. Now, that will no longer happen. All EU, or now Legends, material will exist on an island. SWTOR, if it is EU, will have no effect on any future Star Wars material. In that sense, it is meaningless within the Star Wars Universe as we now know it.

[Beniboybling]

But there is a big difference going forward. Previously, all Star Wars material was essentially consistent, and you could see continuity between the Old Republic era and post-rotj material, for example. Now, that will no longer happen. All EU, or now Legends, material will exist on an island. SWTOR, if it is EU, will have no effect on any future Star Wars material. In that sense, it is meaningless within the Star Wars Universe as we now know it.

You couldn't be any more wrong, this is the exact opposite of what they are trying to achieve.

 

Please, watch

video.

 

The Story Group are trying to make the EU more unified than ever, the only reason they are consigning the old EU to "legend" is so that they can have maximum creative freedom and so they can iron out the many inconsistencies already existing with the universe. But this doesn't mean that the EU they choose to keep intact will have no impact at all.

 

While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe. For example, elements of the EU are included in Star Wars Rebels. The Inquisitor, the Imperial Security Bureau, and Sienar Fleet Systems are story elements in the new animated series, and all these ideas find their origins in roleplaying game material published in the 1980s.

 

TCW has already done this with SWTOR, we've seen Korriban complete with the Sith Academy in-game feature in the show, as well as many other elements of the EU are those stories. They are never going to ignore the EU and anything that is retconned with still live on in legend, there is no question of islands of alternate universes at all.

[JediMasterAlex]

It's till part of the Expanded Universe. No one is telling you it didn't happen.

 

No...aside from the fact that their announcement says that EU material is now Legends material, just because no one actually says it didn't happen doesn't change the fact that it either did or didn't happen in Universe. I don't want the freedom to choose, I want to know the answer.

 

Also, this quote from gamespot confuses me: "[A]s far as The Old Republic MMO is concerned, nothing is going to change. [TOR] has always been a part of the Expanded Universe, and that's not going to change."

 

The original announcement makes it sound as if the EU will no longer exist, but will be split into canon and Legends. We need more clarification.

[FeniceNera]

There are better stories in Post-RotJ EU than those told in Star Wars movies.

Lately this forum is reminding me the Mass Effect story forums after the release of Mass Effect 3 and the whole indoctrination theory

Edited April 26, 2014 by FeniceNera

[JediMasterAlex]

You couldn't be any more wrong, this is the exact opposite of what they are trying to achieve.

 

Please, watch

video.

 

The Story Group are trying to make the EU more unified than ever, the only reason they are consigning the old EU to "legend" is so that they can have maximum creative freedom and so they can iron out the many inconsistencies already existing with the universe. But this doesn't mean that the EU they choose to keep intact will have no impact at all.

 

While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe. For example, elements of the EU are included in Star Wars Rebels. The Inquisitor, the Imperial Security Bureau, and Sienar Fleet Systems are story elements in the new animated series, and all these ideas find their origins in roleplaying game material published in the 1980s.

 

TCW has already done this with SWTOR, we've seen Korriban complete with the Sith Academy in-game feature in the show, as well as many other elements of the EU are those stories. They are never going to ignore the EU and anything that is retconned with still live on in legend, there is no question of islands of alternate universes at all.

 

I watched that video and read the announcements closely. They internally contradict themselves. They are absolutely discarding significant portions of the EU, such as all of the post-rotj material. How do you explain that?

[Beniboybling]

I watched that video and read the announcements closely. They internally contradict themselves. They are absolutely discarding significant portions of the EU, such as all of the post-rotj material. How do you explain that?

You need to remember that part of what goes it to creative cohesive canon is removing elements so it all fits. Creating the "Legends" category IMO seems a way of allowing these stories to live in some form however.

[JediMasterAlex]

You need to remember that part of what goes it to creative cohesive canon is removing elements so it all fits. Creating the "Legends" category IMO seems a way of allowing these stories to live in some form however.

 

Certainly, they are living on in some form. Their position clearly is different though, and it seems silly to say that not much has changed. To me, the fate of SWTOR within this system is not yet clear. How can it be still EU when all of the EU is supposedly Legends and outside of the canon? If something called the Expanded Universe still exists, how is it different from Legends?

Edited April 26, 2014 by JediMasterAlex

[Beniboybling]

Certainly, they are living on in some form. Their position clearly is different though, and it seems silly to say that not much has changed. To me, the fate of SWTOR within this system is not yet clear. How can it be still EU when all of the EU is supposedly Legends and outside of the canon? If something called the Expanded Universe still exists, how is it different from Legends?

All they are doing is making explicit a concept that has been around for a long time, we may not like it but that is how they've been thinking for a long time now, and the EU has not been negatively effected.

 

The term EU may in truth become redundant now if the new works are also "canon". But the only difference we need concern ourselves with is that canon is static, accurate and unchangeable whereas Legends/EU can be overwritten. But this doesn't mean as they said that they can't reference works from Legends in the new EU like they already have done.

 

I'd really say that the only difference here is that Disney are exercising their muscles. They want the new era of Star Wars fans to be able to read about Star Wars characters but not have to dust off some novel from the 80s to do it. So with these new stories, that have total creative liberty, we are going to be seeing a lot more retcons.

 

I think this is why "Legends" was created, I they want to make it explicit that the EU can be overwritten because these aren't super solid accurate depictions of what definitely indisputably happened. But that doesn't mean it all will. They might not even publish in the OR era and if they do it might slot nicely into existing lore.

 

I admit that Disney aren't making things very clear. But as far as I'm concerned until new content comes into play that contradict the so called "Legends" that making up the Old Republic era they still happened in my books.

[ScionOfSurtr]

Stop arurging and protest dinsey .those cowards

[JediMasterAlex]

I admit that Disney aren't making things very clear. But as far as I'm concerned until new content comes into play that contradict the so called "Legends" that making up the Old Republic era they still happened in my books.

 

I'm happy for you. I would like to agree with you, but I'll reserve judgment until they make things clearer.

[Beniboybling]

Stop arurging and protest dinsey .those cowards

I think you'd benefit greater from spending time improving your spelling and grammar.

[Beniboybling]

I'm happy for you. I would like to agree with you, but I'll reserve judgment until they make things clearer.

Honestly not a bad idea, I admit that I'm not 100% sure on the issue and just trying to make sense of it all, but I also want to avoid people jumping to conclusions.

[Tommot]

How is this even a debate? In everything they've said, there is no room for interpretation. It's just Episodes I-VI and The Clone Wars, everything else is non-cannon.

[JediMasterAlex]

How is this even a debate? In everything they've said, there is no room for interpretation. It's just Episodes I-VI and The Clone Wars, everything else is non-cannon.

 

The main reason that it's ambiguous is because they've said that all future content will be canon, even books and games. This game will keep producing new story, so its status is not clear.

[Clarian]

Initially, I thought: who cares? I don't care if a given book or game is considered canon...all I care is whether I like it. But after reading the link below, maybe I do kinda care about the canon announcement. (I found this article much more clarifying than the starwars.com announcement...thanks for the link.)

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/lucasfilm-confirms-all-future-star-wars-content-to-be-canon-including-the-games/1100-6419225/

 

So, from now on, everything will be canon - books, games, everything. I can't blame Disney for doing that; seems like the responsible thing to do on their part, compared to the five different levels of canon-ness or whatever that there used to be. Though SWTOR is a special case, since it's an ongoing thing; so the rule here is: nothing changes, it never was canon and still isn't.

 

On the one hand, I think that's good news, since it means Bioware isn't necessarily totally beholden to the Lucasfilm Story Group.

 

On the other hand...it presumably means that for any future games in the Old Republic era, they would be so beholden. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that that's bad news, but...it seems like the whole 'EU, not canon' thing maybe allowed them at least a little free rein. Is there anything in the game now that the Story Group would have nixed, if they were enforcing canon? I dunno...maybe.

 

I guess it just makes me glad that SWTOR launched before this happened, and I'll enjoy it while it lasts!

 

(Also, how come I can still post if my account went to Preferred status two days ago? I though only subscribers could post.)

[Sarfux]

Like I said. I think SWTOR along with The Old Republic era is safe. Why? Because it has no effect whatsoever on the new direction of the new trilogy. It is it's own thing. Thousands upon thousands of years before the movies. It won't tamper with it nor will it conflict with any writing they want to do. The things that are canned are more the things after Episode 6 that happened. I must admit, most of it is very...confusing. I admire the people who tried and all but some of it is a little far fetched.

 

I think The Old Republic Era is still safe.

[chuixupu]

Funny, I never thought swtor was canon from the moment I pre-ordered it.

[Andryah]

So, from now on, everything will be canon - books, games, everything. I can't blame Disney for doing that; seems like the responsible thing to do on their part, compared to the five different levels of canon-ness or whatever that there used to be.

 

/Agree.

 

The way I see it... Disney is simply cleaning up a long standing and seriously nasty mess created by the wiffle/waffleness of George Lucas in past years.

 

Seriously.. in ten years... you will all thank Disney for bringing sanity to such a large and important franchise.

[Clarian]

/Agree.

Seriously.. in ten years... you will all thank Disney for bringing sanity to such a large and important franchise.

I don't know about that. It doesn't matter to me if the franchise is orderly or not.

 

I can see why Disney wanted to do it, but that doesn't mean it's of any benefit to me. If the Story Group prevents lame stuff from coming out...good for Disney, neutral for me, since I could just ignore it. If they prevent good stuff from coming out in the name or orderliness...not good for me.

 

I'm just glad SWTOR is still considered non-canon. Now more than ever, I hope it's around a long time.