Guardian is OP

[Stridentzephon]

You are all seriously misinformed. Vigi guardian got the buff to FD because we had ZERO way to do what BW gives EACH AND EVERY CLASS. Each class is given a way to survive damage. If it maybe endure the incoming damage or evade or STOP incoming damage.

 

Every class no matter the spec is given that ability and at the same time a way to stop it. Vigi tree was not given ANY way to do this because if we took the tree it counter balances our ability since armor rating has ZERO effect on damage reduction in pvp. Only migration effects take place which is few and far between in vigi tree. I been vigi tree since beta and support the change to FD. First of all you can control a guardian easily by idk STOP incoming damage. We only get restored for the damage incoming. It is not a I win button if you learn to play your rotations. Second BW stated they wanted a class to be able to have a so call oh **** button during combat to evade or escape which pre 2.7

 

WE did not. Sent/mara has GBTF AND invis. Assassins/shadows have the ability to endure the damage( the ability I forget but vs sins its the white/blue glow that covers them and stops damage for the time and increases the damage delt.) and invis. Smugs and opbs have stealth and Evade procs. Mandos and commandos have electro nets and unrootible ablities that alow them to evade and even with that BW said they will add one of the 2 evade or endure measures. Sorcs and Sages have force speed and bybble.

 

So Each class has a way to combat they way the class is designed where Vigi did not. Enure gave us 10% total heal increase for 10 sec which do not Endure incoming damage. Old FD only healed at max 800 per tick over 10 sec with a 8k and 9k with crit which could not override 1 tick per second. So total gain back if we popped both CD would be in pvp 10% of 32k= 3.2k plus the 8k if we got all 10 ticks total return 11.2k return in hp. That is far less then each call restores with either damage output or healing output or pvp damage taken. Many times we burnt our CD and where down before any of them took full effect because the scale was not adjusted with damage taken in IE 900/tick does not survive a 3-5k ability or migrated it. Any and all DPS classes have ability to survive with low determintal effects beside vigi tree til now.

[GrandLordMenace]

You are all seriously misinformed. Vigi guardian got the buff to FD because we had ZERO way to do what BW gives EACH AND EVERY CLASS. Each class is given a way to survive damage. If it maybe endure the incoming damage or evade or STOP incoming damage.

 

Every class no matter the spec is given that ability and at the same time a way to stop it. Vigi tree was not given ANY way to do this because if we took the tree it counter balances our ability since armor rating has ZERO effect on damage reduction in pvp. Only migration effects take place which is few and far between in vigi tree. I been vigi tree since beta and support the change to FD. First of all you can control a guardian easily by idk STOP incoming damage. We only get restored for the damage incoming. It is not a I win button if you learn to play your rotations. Second BW stated they wanted a class to be able to have a so call oh **** button during combat to evade or escape which pre 2.7

 

WE did not. Sent/mara has GBTF AND invis. Assassins/shadows have the ability to endure the damage( the ability I forget but vs sins its the white/blue glow that covers them and stops damage for the time and increases the damage delt.) and invis. Smugs and opbs have stealth and Evade procs. Mandos and commandos have electro nets and unrootible ablities that alow them to evade and even with that BW said they will add one of the 2 evade or endure measures. Sorcs and Sages have force speed and bybble.

 

So Each class has a way to combat they way the class is designed where Vigi did not. Enure gave us 10% total heal increase for 10 sec which do not Endure incoming damage. Old FD only healed at max 800 per tick over 10 sec with a 8k and 9k with crit which could not override 1 tick per second. So total gain back if we popped both CD would be in pvp 10% of 32k= 3.2k plus the 8k if we got all 10 ticks total return 11.2k return in hp. That is far less then each call restores with either damage output or healing output or pvp damage taken. Many times we burnt our CD and where down before any of them took full effect because the scale was not adjusted with damage taken in IE 900/tick does not survive a 3-5k ability or migrated it. Any and all DPS classes have ability to survive with low determintal effects beside vigi tree til now.

 

Hey we're on YOUR side

 

But what you just said is completely accurate EXCEPT for the halting damage being an effective tactic. In most situations stopping damage completely for 30 seconds isn't viable. I think a better tactic is to fish out FD with LOW damage abilities so the jugg/grd overheals through it, therefore mostly negating the effects of FD, then using heavy hitters to burn the target down.

Edited April 27, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[Stridentzephon]

I am on ALL guardians side. I am one for life and do not intend to divide our numbers but some people need to do their homework and main the class more then just playing it as a alt. Not saying they are not as important but understanding the weaknesses and advanages of the class takes time to see. When someone states that armor rating makes FD pointless they do not understand how armor rating was put into effect BEFORE we had the buff to expertise. Expertise makes the rating useless and does minimal to migate damage for vigi tree.

 

Yes I understand stopping damage is not the purpose of pvp or a tatical. Its counter effective. BUT more over each and every class has many ways to root us snare us or stun us. That then becomes the effectiveness of the ability. Many players do not understand that dishing out the damage is not the way to win pvp its using rotations effectively. As I stated before. Most attacks are 2-5k under 20% hp which brings up auto crit heavy hitting under 20%.

 

Many people do not use acc. to increase crit effectiveness or hit effectiveness. Many even state in pvp 90% is far suffericent enough to get the job done. I argue completely against that. ACC does effect pvp in a instance of live vs dead. Before even spec'd into the trait i would only have 96% even with comp buff and dispatch would not do the job or would hit for 3-5k. Once I gear to 100% my dispatch went up to even hitting upwards to 10K. Not saying its a 100% but it is a effective way to ENSURE a kill.

 

With that being said New FD buff only effects 3k max per tick which average hits 600-900 returns 2400-2100 hp and that is not abilites that hit for 3-5k which nagetes the FD tick. We can not even toggle it til under 70%. Even with the 30 sec buff its still 10 ticks which is 30k hp OVER 30 sec IF we take the damage.

 

Many classes have a way to nagate the timer if played right, stuns and roots are what we are always saying is why we are not ranked higher. When a class pops a bubble what do you do? Stop damage and wait or just run away. OR do you keep beating on the sorc/sage? Even with saber ward turning blades which i believe is a joke because it states we get 2 secs of 100% defense we dont in pvp. FD is for vigi is the ONLY substanced defense we have in pvp.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Stridentzephon

[Kain_Turinbar]

Well its official, Focused Defense is getting nerfed according to the Guardian Q&A thread.

[GrandLordMenace]

Well its official, Focused Defense is getting nerfed according to the Guardian Q&A thread.

 

Well it's fine. Most of FD becomes overheal anyway.

[Manweth]

Well it's fine. Most of FD becomes overheal anyway.

 

IIt's only duration, so it's a cool nerf. Heal is same ( Thank Gawd)

 

For the OP, and for anyone else out there:

 

NO.

 

NOOOO.

 

No.

 

NO.

 

Nononononno.

 

NO.

 

We had enough under the oppression of stupid "metas" long enough, taste our righteous AND balanced wrath for a while. And don't whine, because no one is kicking you out of NiM runs because you are a " X advanced class DPS spec" like we were used to be.

 

We suffered, YOU did not. Seriously, you all are lucky that Guardian DPS community didn't go over to dark side from all the rage and anger we kept building through that hell.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Manweth

[GrandLordMenace]

IIt's only duration, so it's a cool nerf. Heal is same ( Thank Gawd)

 

For the OP, and for anyone else out there:

 

NO.

 

NOOOO.

 

No.

 

NO.

 

Nononononno.

 

NO.

 

We had enough under the oppression of stupid "metas" long enough, taste our righteous AND balanced wrath for a while. And don't whine, because no one is kicking you out of NiM runs because you are a " X advanced class DPS spec" like we were used to be.

 

We suffered, YOU did not.

 

Yarp. Besides it just encourages smarter use of the ability in regs. It'll still be effectiveish while being focused and if someone has a dot on you it still will H2F. Just people who have brains will be able to get around it ish. I'd rather we not get nerfed, but this was the most humane way to do it.

[Aelanis]

IIt's only duration, so it's a cool nerf. Heal is same ( Thank Gawd)

 

For the OP, and for anyone else out there:

 

NO.

 

NOOOO.

 

No.

 

NO.

 

Nononononno.

 

NO.

 

We had enough under the oppression of stupid "metas" long enough, taste our righteous AND balanced wrath for a while. And don't whine, because no one is kicking you out of NiM runs because you are a " X advanced class DPS spec" like we were used to be.

 

We suffered, YOU did not. Seriously, you all are lucky that Guardian DPS community didn't go over to dark side from all the rage and anger we kept building through that hell.

 

I don't know, man, if they don't actually fix Shadow dps soon, we might do the same. I'm not sure how long you guys were waiting to be made viable, but it's been, what, a year since the 2.0 changes, and we've yet to see any serious improvement? They'd better have some good answers is all I'll say.

[Manweth]

I don't know, man, if they don't actually fix Shadow dps soon, we might do the same. I'm not sure how long you guys were waiting to be made viable, but it's been, what, a year since the 2.0 changes, and we've yet to see any serious improvement? They'd better have some good answers is all I'll say.

 

Heh, the way I see it, all shadows are lost anyway as it has been too long a time to spend in that darkness for you guys

 

Really though, the problem with shadow DPS is vvery, very,, very, very simple.

 

Wrong design.

 

Stealth specs must have a very strong sustained tree so they can do balanced and okay in pvp, and strong dps in PvE. Frigging Infi spec is a RNG filled burst mania which doesn't work, and balance is clearly designed for sages and never really thought out on a shadow.

 

Simply put, you are the worst designed AC in the whole game. And fixing it.... I dunno, good luck with the devs, it took us 18 months or so to make them hear our simple "remove RNG" cries, for you....

 

Good luck.

[GrandLordMenace]

I don't know, man, if they don't actually fix Shadow dps soon, we might do the same. I'm not sure how long you guys were waiting to be made viable, but it's been, what, a year since the 2.0 changes, and we've yet to see any serious improvement? They'd better have some good answers is all I'll say.

 

Yes shadows have been nonviable since 2.0. Depending on the point of view, before 2.6 we've (Guards) been PERCIEVED to be viable and before 2.0 we were considered much like shadow DPS are now. At launch we were probably one of the weaker DPS specs in the game but it cannot be definitively said without combat logging. Most of Vig's pits and valleys have been because of inadequate information, but I don't think the greater game community was aware of Vig's problems until 2.5 when the new dummies launched, whereas in truth the problems ran much longer before.

 

Shadows were seen as crappy DPS since 2.0 but were given the false hope that the execute would solve everything. It didn't. It's kinda like this, Guardians thought we were viable even though we really weren't whereas Shadows felt that they were unviable, hoped that this new evidence would show they actually were, only to be informed of a widening gap between them and other classes, at least in PVE.

Edited April 28, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[Aelanis]

Heh, the way I see it, all shadows are lost anyway as it has been too long a time to spend in that darkness for you guys

 

Really though, the problem with shadow DPS is vvery, very,, very, very simple.

 

Wrong design.

 

Stealth specs must have a very strong sustained tree so they can do balanced and okay in pvp, and strong dps in PvE. Frigging Infi spec is a RNG filled burst mania which doesn't work, and balance is clearly designed for sages and never really thought out on a shadow.

 

Simply put, you are the worst designed AC in the whole game. And fixing it.... I dunno, good luck with the devs, it took us 18 months or so to make them hear our simple "remove RNG" cries, for you....

 

Good luck.

 

Honestly, there are some pretty simple fixes to both trees that might work out. Take the non-crit RNG out of Infiltration and it can perform very, very well in PVE. Introduce a Shadow Strike/Project proc into Balance that reduces cost and makes it deal extra internal damage for each DoT ticking (or just flat extra damage) would provide the spec with the burst it's so sorely missing, and a little variety that it so badly needs. Fixing Balance in PVP requires a bit more work, but it's by far the easiest of the three to fix, since it's problem is very apparent: it flat out needs more survivability.

 

If the devs listen to the community and keep open communication, we could possibly see a balanced Shadow AC before 3.0 hits, just in time for them to wreck the balance of the game again.

[GrandLordMenace]

Honestly, there are some pretty simple fixes to both trees that might work out. Take the non-crit RNG out of Infiltration and it can perform very, very well in PVE. Introduce a Shadow Strike/Project proc into Balance that reduces cost and makes it deal extra internal damage for each DoT ticking (or just flat extra damage) would provide the spec with the burst it's so sorely missing, and a little variety that it so badly needs. Fixing Balance in PVP requires a bit more work, but it's by far the easiest of the three to fix, since it's problem is very apparent: it flat out needs more survivability.

 

If the devs listen to the community and keep open communication, we could possibly see a balanced Shadow AC before 3.0 hits, just in time for them to wreck the balance of the game again.

 

Ohhh god 3.0...

 

Can they just add static stat increases and no more procs, give a new, simple ability that looks cool to each class that doesn't completely destroy balance? Maybe add another DCD or something to every class I dunno...

Edited April 28, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[Manweth]

Honestly, there are some pretty simple fixes to both trees that might work out. Take the non-crit RNG out of Infiltration and it can perform very, very well in PVE. Introduce a Shadow Strike/Project proc into Balance that reduces cost and makes it deal extra internal damage for each DoT ticking (or just flat extra damage) would provide the spec with the burst it's so sorely missing, and a little variety that it so badly needs. Fixing Balance in PVP requires a bit more work, but it's by far the easiest of the three to fix, since it's problem is very apparent: it flat out needs more survivability.

 

If the devs listen to the community and keep open communication, we could possibly see a balanced Shadow AC before 3.0 hits, just in time for them to wreck the balance of the game again.

 

Do that and Shadows' imbalance of PvP / PvE gets bigger. They literally can't do it because of the burst spec steallth of it in PvP.

 

What you need is a WoW-Thief style dps, sustained, adding on and snowballing kinda dps so it's both balanced for pve and pvp.

 

 

I have always been a proponent of COMPLETELY ERASING shared trees btw. It is a cop out to do less effort on Bio side. Remove Assault from vanguards, Focus from Guards, Balance from Shadows and Dirty Fighting from Gunslingers, and replace them with well thought out and lore appropriate specs.

 

As it is, Sage Balance vs. Shadow Balance will always be an obvious non-contest.

[Aelanis]

Do that and Shadows' imbalance of PvP / PvE gets bigger. They literally can't do it because of the burst spec steallth of it in PvP.

 

What you need is a WoW-Thief style dps, sustained, adding on and snowballing kinda dps so it's both balanced for pve and pvp.

 

Actually, if you increase the ICD by a tiny bit (1-2 GCDs) and remove the RNG activation chance, you actually decrease burst and increase sustained damage. I've tested the math, and it checks out. People have also suggested auto-crit Shadow Strike or Breach on NPCs, which can't affect PVP. It's tough, but doable. Also, while nice and very controlled, Shadow burst in pvp isn't really out of hand. If you see it coming, it's not too hard to shut down.

 

I have always been a proponent of COMPLETELY ERASING shared trees btw. It is a cop out to do less effort on Bio side. Remove Assault from vanguards, Focus from Guards, Balance from Shadows and Dirty Fighting from Gunslingers, and replace them with well thought out and lore appropriate specs.

 

As it is, Sage Balance vs. Shadow Balance will always be an obvious non-contest.

 

But I like my Lethality Sniper! Aside from that, though, I kinda agree, sometimes it's really obvious when a spec is meant for one AC and feels a little.... contrived in the other AC.

[GrandLordMenace]

Shadow burst in pvp isn't really out of hand. If you see it coming, it's not too hard to shut down.

 

-sees force potency- activates saber reflect.

 

Profit.

[Manweth]

-sees force potency- activates saber reflect.

 

Profit.

 

They like to demolish me out of stealth, for some reason.

*whispers* I might be murdering their healers with endless zeal

[Aelanis]

-sees force potency- activates saber reflect.

 

Profit.

 

-See Guardian activate Saber Reflect-

 

Cry.

[TACeMossie]

I have always been a proponent of COMPLETELY ERASING shared trees btw. It is a cop out to do less effort on Bio side. Remove Assault from vanguards, Focus from Guards, Balance from Shadows and Dirty Fighting from Gunslingers, and replace them with well thought out and lore appropriate specs.

 

Hey, leave my Assault spec alone.

 

Also the BH mirror for assault is Pyrotech. As in lots and lots and lots of fire.

Mercenaries are all about missiles

Powertechs are all about fire.

 

Assault/Pyrotech seems to have been designed for powertechs first, ported to Vanguards, and then Mercs and Mandos wanted in on the fun.

[Chembox]

The OP hasn't responded in 5 pages... why is this thread continuing? Did it make everyone so mad your all just fighting each other now? Edited April 29, 2014 by Chembox

[Bejita]

There's no such thing as a pure dps class sorry, this is a WoW copy paste, each AC has 3 specs, you might have more variety as a dps, but you are still a 3 spec class just like a guardian is, the guardian cant tank and dps at the same time so he shouldnt be punished with lower dps

[Kain_Turinbar]

Hey, leave my Assault spec alone.

 

Also the BH mirror for assault is Pyrotech. As in lots and lots and lots of fire.

Mercenaries are all about missiles

Powertechs are all about fire.

 

Assault/Pyrotech seems to have been designed for powertechs first, ported to Vanguards, and then Mercs and Mandos wanted in on the fun.

 

Yeah, too late to take away entire specs now but the shared trees have created issues for sure. I don't know much about the smuggler/trooper ACs but Focus and Balance being shared has created tons of issues.

 

Why play a focus Guardian when Focus Sentinels are so much better?

 

Balance was clearly designed as a ranged/Sage spec first then ported to the Shadow. The spec is pretty good in Sage form and underwhelming in Shadow form.

 

Then you have to try to buff the weaker one in a way that doesn't make the already solid AC/Spec OP.....

 

So yes, I think the shared trees were a mistake.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Kain_Turinbar

[Xtremophile]

The OP hasn't responded in 5 pages... why is this thread continuing? Did it make everyone so mad your all just fighting each other now?

 

Yesh, melord. That is called trolling and this one was succesful, I must admit. Check his/her posts.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Xtremophile

[DasVio]

FD is really a bit to strong. Well, it works without befor, it will work with a nerfed one too.

 

Oh, pls nerf Guardian, the class is using a Lightsaber, this is indeed to strong!