Ugolino Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 They will be too busy buffing snipers and nerfing ops to do anything else. If it will burn through it before 15 seconds are up, why do you need 15 seconds? lower it to 8, so once again, there is a counter to it. Ok this will be the last time I answer this one. force bubble: leaves the target motionless, 3 minute CD saber ward: juggs have it too, and afaik it will not save you from focus damage. camo: last 4 seconds, can easily be located after it is over. UR: lasts 4 seconds, severe penalty at the end (and drew quite a lot of QQ from everyone when the penalty was at the beginning). stealthout: can be countered with a DoT or an AoE. shroud: can be countered with white damage, only lasts 3 seconds and doesn't work all the time. ED: cannot be stopped from activation because it can be activated while stunned, cannot be waited out because it lasts too long, has no cost, leaves the user mobile and able to do anything he wants, healing is passive. See? There is no cost, no counter. The only argument you are making is that 3 people can burst it down after all the charges are gone. *headdesk* Focused Defense. Moderately long duration defensive cooldown with surviving focus fire as a secondary use. What part of 15 seconds suggests "moderately long" to you?! You already have a counter- it only has 10 charges and no inherent damage reduction. Hit them ten times while using your own defensive cooldowns THEN hit them with burst rather than hoping to use "EA NERF" to counter for your own lack of creativity. If you waste your burst on new FD, it's your own silly fault for not adapting to the situation- and the only real game-changer is for Vigilance's usefulness in duels as there's a very obvious answer for what to do in a warzone. 10 charges. Decent focus fire burns through the charges very fast. Mobility is the only valid argument you've raised and irrelevant since lol stealthout has the same effect. Shroud being a buggy pos doesn't change that it's great if it works as intended, go whine to someone who cares if your class abilities work the way they're supposed to or not. 4 seconds of guaranteed stealth is an eternity and gives you breathing room. Stealthouts are counterable, yes, but still give you breathing room because you are practically invulnerable before you get popped out and with the demise of DURR SMASH, aoe isn't the threat it once was. FD is fine, adapt to the new balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamahara Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 They will be too busy buffing snipers and nerfing ops to do anything else. If it will burn through it before 15 seconds are up, why do you need 15 seconds? lower it to 8, so once again, there is a counter to it. Ok this will be the last time I answer this one. force bubble: leaves the target motionless, 3 minute CD saber ward: juggs have it too, and afaik it will not save you from focus damage. camo: last 4 seconds, can easily be located after it is over. UR: lasts 4 seconds, severe penalty at the end (and drew quite a lot of QQ from everyone when the penalty was at the beginning). stealthout: can be countered with a DoT or an AoE. shroud: can be countered with white damage, only lasts 3 seconds and doesn't work all the time. ED: cannot be stopped from activation because it can be activated while stunned, cannot be waited out because it lasts too long, has no cost, leaves the user mobile and able to do anything he wants, healing is passive. See? There is no cost, no counter. The only argument you are making is that 3 people can burst it down after all the charges are gone. The damage you do to them while ED is activated still uses the charges it wont last 30 seconds dude..hell forces stasis/choke uses what.. 3 or more of its charges? 2 DPS can burn it down quick. 1v1 has no meaning in wzs..or ranked arenas. Sounds like you play solo queue ranked/8v8 a lot or open world(both of which don't matter). 1v1s mean nothing. It has a 2minute CD..and you can burn through its charges quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicRider Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 So you're in favor of giving Guardians rebuke? I approve of this message. The rest...yeah, no, you shouldn't be able to just ignore Focused Defense and it's ten charges. Wear out the charges, pop a defensive CD of your own if you have to, and deal with him when the charges wear off. Not rocket science, you just have to work for it now. Vigilance damage is nice, but "IT'S NOT LIKE IT DOES SABER STRIKE DAMAGE" is a completely stupid argument- as any serious PVPer knows, vigilance is sustained damage and not burst, which makes it inherently less viable for PVP than some. If you want to exchange ED for rebuke please be my guest. On the contrary you should ignore it cause thats the best play, attacking the guardian through his ED is like attacking a dead wall, you are doing nothing while your opponents are taking you down. The thing is that ignoring for 30s is just too much. Why don't you go and try it, tell your team to keep on focussing the guardian even during his ED phase and please come beck and tell me what your teammates said. If they agreed to do so please let me know the rate of your success. And the damage comment was in regard to someoe saying that vig has terrible damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sithBracer Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 The Op healer I play with in arenas holds the game record for legit HPS and still couldn't keep me up as a guardian before 2.7 With two DPS on me( I might of read that wrong but what group has 4dps in arenas? lol)... Point being, the other defensives are worthless don't even mention them. It's not unbalanced when saber ward and saber reflect do very little. Unstoppable is only activated after force leap so it's not like we are immune to being mez, stunned, etc all the time. it lasts 6 seconds after leap. BTW I'm pretty sure you have an ability that makes you immune to stuns etc for a short amount of time, as well as being able to break away to stealth which also takes you out of combat. You keep forgetting ED has charges and doesn't always last. This will be the last message on this subject, I feel like I'm wasting my fingers. I will make this nice and bold for you YOU SHOULD NOT SURVIVE A FOCUS BY 4 DPS. Wanna know why? Because it is 4 dps. No healer or magic ability should keep you up against such an onslaught. It is up to your tank to switch guard, your healer to heal and your dps (you included) to take them out before they take you out. Why is this so difficult to understand? Are we talking about the same saber ward and saber reflect? http://www.torhead.com/ability/5TCbWzd/saber-ward http://www.torhead.com/ability/627yBi0/saber-reflect those moves right? Those are bad? What do you want them to be 100% damage mitigation for 12 seconds? The move you are referring to is shroud/resilience. It has a 1 minute CD, lasts for 3 seconds, can be hit by white damage, and has a bug which stops it from working 100% of the time (BW admit this and still hasn't fixed it). I actually was electrocuted yesterday while under it (by another assassin ... the irony). As for stealthing out, that is easily countered with a DoT or using AoE after the sin stealths out. Point is both of those moves have a counter. Stealth out can be DoTed, and and shroud can easily be waited out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugolino Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 If you want to exchange ED for rebuke please be my guest. On the contrary you should ignore it cause thats the best play, attacking the guardian through his ED is like attacking a dead wall, you are doing nothing while your opponents are taking you down. The thing is that ignoring for 30s is just too much. Why don't you go and try it, tell your team to keep on focussing the guardian even during his ED phase and please come beck and tell me what your teammates said. If they agreed to do so please let me know the rate of your success. And the damage comment was in regard to someoe saying that vig has terrible damage. Let me rephrase: give me cloak of pain and rebuke and I'll happily trade away Focused Defense. I've never had to ignore it. Guardians die in warzones just the same as they always have, and any difficulty you're having taking one down isn't because of the changes. I've killed them with my ED down and theirs up as well as simply changing targets and gutting them afterwards/dropping a taunt and swapping targets, and it really, really isn't the gamebreaker you're portraying it as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren_simp Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 The ability is fine in its Current form some tips Focus the jug/guard force them too pop it Switch targets or burst through the heals guards/jugg didn't recive any damage reduction along with this talent And can die just as fast as they did pre 2.7 I faced a team with 3vengeance jugs and a sniper my team was me vigilance 2combat sents and a gunnery comando and we won we rotated through the juggs forcing them to blow their cooldowns. It's a need buff to this class and by no mean makes us invincible I still get melted easily once I've popped everything it just allows more uptime that you never got before and vs some comps you still don't get enough. Double sorc double sniper is the hardest comp we have faced since 2.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicRider Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Let me rephrase: give me cloak of pain and rebuke and I'll happily trade away Focused Defense. Cloak of pain = Rebuke. First is the name for maras, latter for sentinels, same ability. You might want to learn sentinels/maras abilities. I've never had to ignore it. Guardians die in warzones just the same as they always have, and any difficulty you're having taking one down isn't because of the changes. I've killed them with my ED down and theirs up as well as simply changing targets and gutting them afterwards/dropping a taunt and swapping targets, and it really, really isn't the gamebreaker you're portraying it as. Confused. Firstly you say keep on attacking him to burn the charges down.... now you say swap target (for at least 30s) and ignore him. What is it then? And if you stand with your latter statement instead of the former contradictory one, then out of curiosity if you play against 2-3 of them, who do you swap to then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugolino Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) Cloak of pain = Rebuke. First is the name for maras, latter for sentinels, same ability. You might want to learn sentinels/maras abilities. Confused. Firstly you say keep on attacking him to burn the charges down.... now you say swap target (for at least 30s) and ignore him. What is it then? And if you stand with your latter statement instead of the former contradictory one, then out of curiosity if you play against 2-3 of them, who do you swap to then? My mistake; I should have realized that mistake but I'm still working on my mirror AC and it's not a priority for me. Either works, which is is my point. If you play against 2-3 of them, then why are you expecting to win solo against 2-3 competent players? And 2-3 of most classes will give you silly results; this is not news. Either keep focusing the guy with your buddy (since I assume you're not expecting to take on 2-3 Guardians solo and win lol) and get him once he's out of charges (And if you have more than 1 guy on him, he will run out very very fast) or change targets and come back after a kill or two to get rid of him, assuming your more competent teammates haven't done it for you. Edited April 18, 2014 by Ugolino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandLordMenace Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) The problem with Guardian Vigilance Defenses, is that we have an inherent weakness to force and tech in PVP besides Focused Defense, SPECIFICALLY against AOE force and tech. Saber Ward's defenses mainly only defend against melee and ranged damage, which while common in PVE, is a lot less common in PVP. This renders saber ward, a 3 minute ability's main usage, is 25 percent DR on F/T abilities, pathetic. We have no long CD defensive ability that works truly well in PVP besides Focused Defense, and THAT is why it should not be touched. Focused Defense is only useful to DELAY death, not stave it off completely. Edited April 18, 2014 by GrandLordMenace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamahara Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Maybe its the alcohol lol... But If you're trying to tell me that ED can keep a Jugg up with 4dps on him without a healer healing him you are so full of it. I've been burned down many times with it popped and having no healer to heal me. I play against dps who can easily sustain over mid 2kdps no problem on a regular basis. 2 of them have no problem burning a jugg that has ED popped in a group arena. 30 seconds is too long..but ED will never last that long being focused. Use your weakest stuff on them and it will still use their 10 charges. And you're wrong, I've kept a marauder alive with 5 people on him on my Operative. Im just op heals I guess <3. Every response I've given was in reference to a ranked 4man arena. The reason juggs got ED.. I think it should be cut in half and have less charges though no biggie. You said they SHOULD NOT..Fact is they cant survive 4dps on them without heals even with ED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandLordMenace Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Maybe its the alcohol lol... But If you're trying to tell me that ED can keep a Jugg up with 4dps on him without a healer healing him you are so full of it. I've been burned down many times with it popped and having no healer to heal me. I play against dps who can easily sustain over mid 2kdps no problem on a regular basis. 2 of them have no problem burning a jugg that has ED popped in a group arena. 30 seconds is too long..but ED will never last that long being focused. Use your weakest stuff on them and it will still use their 10 charges. And you're wrong, I've kept a marauder alive with 5 people on him on my Operative. Im just op heals I guess <3. Every response I've given was in reference to a ranked 4man arena. The reason juggs got ED.. I think it should be cut in half and have less charges though no biggie. You said they SHOULD NOT..Fact is they cant survive 4dps on them without heals even with ED. EXACTLY. Focused Defense is just a heal, nothing more, it's a powerful heal, but as all heals, they can be burned through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telaan Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Okay and I'm not denying any of that. I am, however, rightfully concerned about the ability in its current state - which I find over tuned. I asked the question (mainly pointed at BW) if it was intentional the way it is performing right now. You'll have to excuse people who don't value your opinion on the issue very highly. Complaints from the rep for the class which has a solid spot in the meta game of arena and had been a tier 1 pvp class for so long, isn't going to be taken seriously by people who have played a class which has been, at best, questionable since launch. As I said above, each tick of FD heals for less than most attacks and isn't a iwin h2f button. Arguing that it is makes that person look clueless. The ability is used in conjunction with other dcds, such as enure, to maximize the benefits of both abilities. Without a second dcd FDs healing is easily burst through. All your qq on this forum does is erode your credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 All your qq on this forum does is erode your credibility. I'm not 'qqing' so that doesn't apply to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telaan Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I'm not 'qqing' so that doesn't apply to me. Call it what you want, my point stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) Call it what you want, my point stands. You said I was 'qqing', which I'm not, so you have no point. If someone loses credibility for calling out grossly overpowered abilities then gosh golly darn, that's too bad. Edited April 19, 2014 by Xinika Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telaan Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 You said I was 'qqing', which I'm not, so you have no point. If someone loses credibility for calling out grossly overpowered abilities then gosh golly darn, that's too bad. /5char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandLordMenace Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 You are complaining/Calling for a nerf to class/ability you think is overpowered, how is that NOT qqing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sithBracer Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 You said I was 'qqing', which I'm not, so you have no point. If someone loses credibility for calling out grossly overpowered abilities then gosh golly darn, that's too bad. Just leave it alone, these people obviously cannot be reasoned with. They just want their "I win" button and refuse to listen to any amount of reason. And the fact that they think assassin was always a tier 1 class proves they know nothing about this game other than the fact that roudy is on the leaderboards. I bet none of them were even here when assassins were classified as regstars and ranked node guards, while juggs were huttball gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) You are complaining/Calling for a nerf to class/ability you think is overpowered, how is that NOT qqing? Cool. So back on topic, I'd like to ask BW if it's okay for a class to have an overpowered ability because it was apparently under performing in a certain field? (Speculation) If so, can we expect to see other classes get over tuned abilities in the future to 'compensate' for their apparent lack of performance in X field? (IE: Madness Assassins) Also, is this how you will be handling balance in the future? Edited April 19, 2014 by Xinika Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugolino Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) "It's overpowered!!11" is not a valid argument. Be specific or be quiet and take your cheerleaders with you. Unless you can make a decent argument for your case (and even your cheerleaders put more effort into trying and failing at that than you did), all you're doing is hurting your side of the argument. Please continue doing that; the Guardian community thanks you for it. Edited April 19, 2014 by Ugolino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 "It's overpowered!!11" is not a valid argument. Be specific or be quiet and take your cheerleaders with you. Unless you can make a decent argument for your case (and even your cheerleaders put more effort into trying and failing at that than you did), all you're doing is hurting your side of the argument. Please continue doing that; the Guardian community thanks you for it. Your guardian community seems divided on opinions. You can check this thread to see it yourself. Thanks for keeping this thread at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren_simp Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Cool. So back on topic, I'd like to ask BW if it's okay for a class to have an overpowered ability because it was apparently under performing in a certain field? (Speculation) If so, can we expect to see other classes get over tuned abilities in the future to 'compensate' for their apparent lack of performance in X field? (IE: Madness Assassins) Also, is this how you will be handling balance in the future? It's not overpowered you have no proof that it is, simply by stating its overpowered doesn't make it fact Now if it reduced all damage taken and healed you that would be classed as overpowered But it doesn't it only heals and can be burst through quite easily 10 charges get eaten up fast I sometimes wonder do people complaining actually even play the game Because since 2.7 I have faced way more formidable classes/spec than vig/vengeance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugolino Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Your guardian community seems divided on opinions. You can check this thread to see it yourself. Thanks for keeping this thread at the top. I dunno; there seems to be a majority convinced you and your little friends have no idea what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) It's not overpowered you have no proof that it is, simply by stating its overpowered doesn't make it fact Now if it reduced all damage taken and healed you that would be classed as overpowered But it doesn't it only heals and can be burst through quite easily 10 charges get eaten up fast I sometimes wonder do people complaining actually even play the game Because since 2.7 I have faced way more formidable classes/spec than vig/vengeance You're right, all these people (including myself) are crazy. ED is absolutely fine. I think I see the light. I dunno; there seems to be a majority convinced you and your little friends have no idea what you're talking about. Okay nameless guy. Edited April 19, 2014 by Xinika Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugolino Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 You're right, all these people (including myself) are crazy. ED is absolutely fine. I think I see the light. Glad you and all three of your buddies could see reason! Now, please, stop talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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