GSF and Gunship balance post 2.7

[Ramalina]

I tend to view the only good gunship as one that's about to disintegrate under a hail of blaster and missile fire (yeah, yeah, ok, I do make exceptions for handy minefield clearers, and GSF wouldn't be as fun if Leggogurl weren't around to make life miserable from 15000 m).

 

Still after the changes from 2.7 I'm a little concerned for overall GSF balance in terms of Gunships, not specifically in terms of weakness, but in terms of now being very tightly constrained in terms of viable playstyle options.

 

Since I generally try to avoid driving a gunship, I thought I'd talk a bit about what seems like would be tolerable in terms of GS buffs from a non-GS point of view, and ask passionate GS pilots about what they'd like to see in terms of balancing tweaks that might improve GS quality of life, without triggering a second hit with the nerfhammer.

 

Gunships are not in a good place (or if they are there's a component combination and/or playstyle that has eluded most of the playerbase) when it comes to their shield options and engine options other than barrel roll.

 

What with BLC's, Fortress Shield, Feedback Shield, Rotational Thrusters, Interdiction Drive, there's definitely a stand and fight or quick dogfight or snare and run style that's supposed to be provided for, but for some reason it doesn't seem to be working for most people.

 

So one question is, has anyone actually been devious, malicious, and bloodthirsty while trying these out at mastered levels? Or was it just that with DF and BR everything else just seemed so unappealing in comparison that no one tried it? The follow on is, if you tried them and gave them a real chance, what changes do you think would be needed to make them perform the function that seems to be intended based on the design?

 

Take interdiction drive as an example. It makes a gunship faster than the fastest scout build, and reduces the speed and turning of nearby enemies enough to drop an upgraded ship to or slightly below the baseline of the next slower/less maneuverable class of ship.

 

It looks like the theory is that you should have the option to either run to open a gap, or have 6 seconds to dogfight on even or possibly favorable terms.

 

One problem is that you need to let the opponent get very close before you can trigger it, and an enemy that assumes that you have BLCs equipped is probably going to be shy about getting close enough for interdiction to work. Some of this is balance to be sure, any non-GS will have had a gap of 4.5 to 11 km where their defenses against a GS were minimal, so the gap between interdiction range and scout/strike weapons range will probably stick around, but maybe it would be more workable if it were increased to 4 to 5 km?

 

Next problem, if you stick around to dogfight after hitting someone with interdiction, you are now very fast, but you have close range weaponry, still turn like a barge, and the time window isn't likely to give you more than 1-3 slash and run style attacks (which is pretty much what you're forced into if you have high speed and crappy turn). Exact number of runs depending on what your orientation relative to the opponent is when you hit interdiction. I don't think interdiction should turn into a close range I-WIN button for GSs, but it still seems like it's a bit less than what would give a really competitive fight. My inclination would be to give the GS a bit of extra turning ability (the issue is that though the relative turn speed is already greater than the interdicted opponent's, the GS's poor turn speed is still bad in a turning fight when combined with high speed, and the slow turn rate imposes a very low cap on the number of passes the GS can make while trying to finish a dogfight in a very short window of time). Say at least as much as a baseline strike fighter, and possibly have the third tier upgrade option add to the GS's turn rather than subtracting from the opponent's.

 

If on the other hand you choose to run; you should be able to run at least 18 km, assuming you have 6 seconds worth of fuel to boost with. The thing is though, if pursued by a boosting opponent that leaves you with a roughly 6-9 km gap against a scout, 14 to 11 km gap against a strike fighter, and I guess against anything else you're sitting pretty. This is probably a tricky one to balance. Against a scout, by the time you turn to engage they're probably too close for effective railgun use. Against other ships buffing interdiction is probably going to tilt heavily in favor of the gunship with both ships being low on engine pool but at ideal railgun ranges. A debuff on engines that capped engine speed at a certain level might work, in that it would have a disproportionate effect on scouts (and thus allow opening a gap on them without being overly effective against other ship classes) but it seems like a clunky solution and I don't really like it. I guess I'd leave it alone, especially if changing the t3 upgrade option to adding turn rate to the GS had been implemented.

 

So, stuff along those lines. What suggestions do you have for the GS's engine and shield components? What tactics might make them work with changes? What would the potential balance problems might stem from those changes? For example would we see GS's charging into the center of a furball and popping improved interdiction to give friendly scouts and strikes an edge?

 

If you want to wander off of GS balance to general GSF balance that's cool too. I make the thread title wording a bit ambiguous on purpose. Is it about GS balance in GSF, or about GSF balance and GS balance?

 

So far it looks like the devs have a pretty good record of listening to reasonable suggestions for improvements, and they definitely want all of the ships to have the potential for multiple fun playstyles. There's a bunch of underperforming components, builds, crew abilities etc. Might as well suggest fixes for them while we're at it.

[Ramalina]

Risking a double post here, cause Verain's response to another thread was just too good to not put here.

 

1000% agree.

 

Here's the gunship options that need buffs:

 

Fortress Shield: This is the worst choice anyone can make in the whole game. It's called fortress shield, and here's how it starts: Shield Power Capacity (per arc): -30%

This item is a "trap". Meaning, it has a description that implies that it has a role, but it not only is terrible at that role, but it guarantees the frustration of anyone who uses it.

Your baseline shield with large reactor and companion: 2210

Your fortress shield version of that: 1700

Your shield when you have fortress up: 3400

In practice, this is without meaning. Being stationary greatly increases damage taken- by far more than a mere factor of two. Shields have no damage reduction. Shield pen still walks through. The only weapon fortress shield works properly against is plasma railgun- everything else does far too much damage for this boost to matter.

 

Fortress shield needs to either be a snare on you plus more defenses, or actually just eliminate shield piercing for its duration instead of giving you a boost. The fact that you give up directional or distortion is too great. The fact that the final talent doesn't help you survive is also crap.

 

Directional would have left you with 2380 instead of 1700. The double front shields seem to be close to 4000 or so- I'm not exactly sure, but you will have similar protection if not more from whichever direction you aim them. Distortion is trivially better- 9% evasion plus an active that grants evasion and breaks a missile lock?

 

 

Feedback shield is also worthless. At least it doesn't actively make you die faster as fortress shield does. Reflective damage is inherently odd in a game like this, and a version of this worth using would probably be punishing. Stasie has suggested a cooldown move that gives you massive reflect- such as 100%- during a small duration. I just think it should be scrapped and redesigned- OR- the talents could be redesigned to make it more defensive instead.

 

 

 

The engine components- interdiction, weapon power converter, and rotational- are all too niche to be used. Interdiction they will simply not make worth using no matter what we say- the aoe snare effect is frustrating and powerful. It needs defensive options. Weapon power is interesting, but needs to bribe you- perhaps with increased damage- yes, to railguns- for seconds after being activated it will be worth having. You'll still die, but at least someone could use it without being wholly wrong. Rotational could either break missiles, make missile locks take longer, or reduce damage from missiles- and it would see use. It's actually an aggressive and interesting option, but giving up a missile lock break is just not ok.

[Slivovidze]

Problem with Interdiction is not speed or turning rate, it is the cost. If you use it, you will get like 4k away and then your engine power is gone. If the cost was lowered drastically, I imagine some guys would be able to think of something.

 

Fortress shield needs to either be heavily buffed with, I dunno, damage reduction while active, or it needs to go away and be replaced by Overcharged shield.

 

Then, gunships need some 15s lock breaker option. I think that with Retros, people would think of possibilities.

 

Other than that I have no ideas. I don't fly gunships myself, I just hate them passionately. For all I care, they could be nerfed to oblivion and if nobody played them the game would be instantly 50% more fun.

 

But I don't exactly think they ever needed some buffs/nerfs, I was always able to kill the average ones and lose to the great ones after a decent fight.

[Warhams]

Ramalina thank you for trying to do this and I would happily contribute but in all honestly, I can already see any suggestions to try to repair the current state of gunships will be drowned by calls of further Nerfs, "Gunships deserve it", "Gunships need to learn to dogfight", "I'm playing my violin", "Who else can kill you in 2 seconds", "Learn to play something that actually requires skill" etc etc like you can see in all the other threads. It would be an exercise in futility.

 

Oh and this sums it up perfectly

.

Other than that I have no ideas. I don't fly gunships myself, I just hate them passionately. For all I care, they could be nerfed to oblivion and if nobody played them the game would be instantly 50% more fun.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Warhams

[MCaliban]

It would be nice if the shield abilities also provided healing.

 

It would be nice if sensor dampening did not cap out.

 

It would be nice if GS engine pool or engine regen were buffed. I'd be happy to trade my magazine or shield extender for more engine power.

 

If a shield ability is the 'stay and fight' type, it should increase your turn ability while active.

Edited April 11, 2014 by MCaliban

[Fractalsponge]

It would be nice if the shield abilities also provided healing.

 

It would be nice if sensor dampening did not cap out.

 

It would be nice if GS engine pool or engine regen were buffed. I'd be happy to trade my magazine or shield extender for more engine power.

 

If a shield ability is the 'stay and fight' type, it should increase your turn ability while active.

 

Right now, someone popping fortress shield tells me "this ship just became a guaranteed kill in a fixed time frame, instead of just being a probable kill in an undefined time frame." If we're to rework fortress shield, I'd make it dramatically increase turn rates, not have a shield pool penalty, and at baseline regenerate engine pool when active. Make it more of a reset option - the gunship gets another chance to run with a decent amount of engine pool, while having a decent chance at surviving the use of the shield. Then I would consider trading the passive and active evasion and missile break of DField for it.

 

Interdiction drive in theory would be interesting, but it has such a godawful CD time that it is effectively useless. If I can only use an escape once every minute It had damn well better give me an excellent chance of completely getting out of a fight. As it is it probably wouldn't even get you a solid railgun shot against a scout, and then you're out of luck for another minute. The speed delta would need to be a LOT more for it to be a genuine escape worthy of the super-long CD. As it is, even nerfed, BR is superior, since BR will break missile lock and can be used THREE TIMES for every interdiction drive use.

[Kalphitis]

Two arguments:

 

Argument 1 -- Against GS Buffs:

 

I have to confess that when I play a GS, 90% of the time when a Scout or SF is chasing me (even an 'ace' player), it's not that hard to just go defensive and LOS their attacks for an indefinite amount of time. Typically I only die quick to 'surprise' attacks. It's only when 2 or 3 people start chasing me that defeat becomes inevitable.

 

Is it slightly harder after the BR nerf? A little, but not much. It's not that hard to fly around an object to avoid being shot at or missile locked.

 

And if one ace is chasing me without friends, eventually they give up and target somebody else -- which is INCREDIBLY risky since they risk a swift and deadly retaliation by the GS once they disengage but stay in range.

 

Argument 2 -- For GS Buffs

 

Sure you can avoid being killed by a pursuer in a GS, but that means you can't do anything else. When I play a Scout or a SF, for example, I typically avoid dogfights. This means that if somebody attacks me, I just somewhat ignore them, and attack other people while dodging my pursuer. The ability of a scout or SF to remain useful even when under constant pursuit is something that the GS simply cannot do.

 

If the GS had a quick burst engine ability to get them to max distance fast, enabling them to become 'productive' again, that would seem logical. It would also give their pursuer an option: Continue to engage, possibly at their own peril; or disengage and they have plenty of time to LOS or get out of range. So it wouldn't automatically give the GS a 'free kill' advantage.

[Kuciwalker]

Fortress shield should provide, either as active or maybe even as passive, a "shield hardness" that counters shield penetration. So say 20% hardness would reduce an incoming slug to only 8% penetration. Edited April 11, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Slivovidze]

..

What this person said is quite the truth. Gunships can avoid defeat for extended periods of time by using objects for their favor. That however makes them unable to shoot, but you made that choice when picking gunship as your ship.

 

Gunships sacrifice ability to shoot their best stuff while under pressure, but when not under pressure, they are killing machines. While scouts and fighters are more balanced in this, gunships take both pain & gain to the extreme. I won't talk about bombers, these take it to the other extreme where there is mostly gain with little pain.

 

And secondly, this is a team game, so you can always try and get someone to protect you. No expert voicecom premade is needed for that, when some gunship pilot asks for cover and specifies location, I tend to try keep an eye on him if I can, greatly increasing productivity of us both.

[Altheran]

I'm not a passionate GS pilot (but a strike one), but I fly mine from times to times (and face them a lot).

 

My gripe with Gunships at the moment is that the outcome of fights is too binary : you turn enemy into fodder, or you're the enemy's fodder.

Usually, in a ground PvP, with a range vs melee, after that the ranged one initiated the offense, the melee can reach the ranged one with enough life to withstand that initial attack and a bit of kitting. But here the melee can't withstand further offense, and the ranged can't kite (dogfight/defend) but only flee.

Too much offense, inexistant defense...

 

And the thing is that defense can provided by someone else transforming it into something very powerful, and that coordinated offense tends to be an automatic win very easily when the said "offense power" is high.

 

The issues with their offense become clear when you take the case of two coordinated Gunships : they arrive, choose one target, Ion plus Slug = dead target.

Now the team is having a X vs X-1 without letting a chance to retailiate in 3s, and without unbalancing your own team (having 2 of 8 or 12 ships being GS isn't hindering). Other ships can also bring down some targets during that frame rate, but they always let an escape as none of them is able to burst that hard, even in a focus fire.

Even alone, they're extremely fearsome : once you took the alpha strike, you don't have any error margin anymore. The next shot lands, you're dead. It doesn't, you live.

 

As for the defense it is apparent as their speed and manoeuvrability is third rate, as well his passive defense, and even active defenses are arguably bad.

 

 

In my opinion, the gunship should have its defense greatly improved, and offense tuned down.

 

I would do that in three steps :

1. Increase Gunships' hull, shields, and maybe engines (speed and turning rate) at the level of a Strike

2. Make their dedicated Engine and shield power actually worth something.

3. Taking Slug Railgun's damage down (1000-1100) while leaving Plasma and Ion unchanged so that they're as worth as missiles (Slug Rail ~ Concussion Missile, Plasma Rail ~ Thermite Torpedo, Ion Rail ~ Ion missile), but just working differently.

 

One would say : wouldn't that be a Strike instead of a Gunship ? Yes and no.

They'd differ by the different available choices of defenses (Shield & Engine), and their inability to be fully efficient at Strike's range, while the Strike is inefficient at Gunship's range.

(And the Cometbreaker would actually be the link between the Pike and the Quarrel instead of "a weak Quarrel that wanna be a Pike")

 

I don't expect my view about gunships to be famous, I even expect some hate and people coming with forks, but since it was asked how we'd balance them...

 

 

 

As for the shields and engines themselves :

(Sorry to begin the main topic of this thread that late in my post but I think it was important to say that I think their buff should come at the cost of the gunship to have in-depth changes)

 

- Passive extra capacity to Feedback Shield

- No shield malus to Forteress shield

- Cost reduction or removal of afterburners after Interdiction drive's use

- Maybe giving Power Dive

- Passive extra turning rate or other engine related bonus to Rotationnal Thrusters

Edited April 11, 2014 by Altheran

[Korithras]

As a pilot who tends towards scouts primarily, and strike fighters second, I personally have no problems with how gunships are right now. They still have their firepower for dishing out the hurt at long range, but they were "never" meant to match close range craft blow for blow and turn for turn. The idea of the gunship is to be like a sniper in a fps: you have to choose the spot where you take your shots from carefully. Because once people start gunning for you, you have to have an escape plan. Be it running towards your allies in the hopes they can get your pursuers off you, or to a place where you can duck and weave enough to keep los breaking.

 

The fact of the matter is, gunships got their much-needed nerfing and now all the hacks who have no dogfighting skills are crying about it. Which means they need to learn how to play their chosen class of starfighter smarter, instead of just shooting ducks at a carnival like it used to be for them.

 

In short, gunships now require talent like scouts and strikes always have, and the lazy players who want easy wins handed to them don't like it. Get over it. The rest of us put up with your op-ness for long enough. If you don't like it, don't queue. The less gunships and bombers we have in GSF, the better. The best matches I've played have always had very few if not none of them in play.

[SammyGStatus]

Youjust said we're not supposed to dogfight, then in the next statement mention qqing about not having dogfighting skills. The underlying thing is that people need to change their playstyles. I can still dogfight - my ability to move has been crippled. That's all. Switching to turning on BR helps a lot

[-Streven-]

Gunships don't need any additional help. Even without Barrel Roll and the changes to ion rails they are still easily the most capable vehicle in the game when assuming equal skill across all pilots. The good gunship pilots on my server are still performing head and shoulders above any other class. The beef i have with gunships is they are the kings of range yet still damn tough opponents when you get close to them. Their weaknesses at close range don't nearly balance their complete dominance of the long game.

 

I've heard plenty of defense of being able to run almost indefinitely with barrel roll as a good thing. It wasn't. You should have a glaring weakness to compensate for the glaring dominance you hold and even without barrel roll you don't. Most supporters of snipers simply want to have their cake and eat it too. They see any talk about changes to their class as a threat to their godhood and get very defensive.

 

I just want some parity. If you can hand my you know what to me at range I ought to be able to do the same to you at close range. How is that not fair?

 

______________________________

 

And just to nip it in the bud before it starts i'm primarily a strike pilot so this isn't about battle scout rage. I almost never take the battle scout in matches and have yet to master BLCs on any ship. They too are in need of some serious nerfage.

[Zharik]

Face it, the only reason that you all feel that a gunship is too powerful at close range is burst laser cannons. If they did not have these, this would not even be a topic.

 

So I think the best "fix" for BLCs is to remove armor piercing from the choices. That would leave it strong against most ships up close, but give it a weakness vs some. And it isn't like damage reduction is all that popular, so it would be a minor nerf.

[Armonddd]

Face it, the only reason that you all feel that a gunship is too powerful at close range is burst laser cannons. If they did not have these, this would not even be a topic.

 

Well, yeah. Without BLCs, no ship is amazing at close range.

 

And it isn't like damage reduction is all that popular, so it would be a minor nerf.

 

Damage reduction is very common on turrets, which are an important target. They have weird amounts of armor, though, so maybe that should be tweaked anyway. (The delta in time to kill between someone with armor penetrating weaponry and someone without is currently huge, which shouldn't be the case IMO.)

[Vladnar]

I used to play only a Gunship and it was great fun, i could take them out at long range but then they'd get close and take me out, it always seemed fair and reasonable.

 

I maxed out my ship and pimped it up lol.........and took all the talents and have lots of points to spend on well only other ships so i stopped playing. Recently thought id come back do some more shooting as a change from all the pve and pvp ive been doing and stop going back to alt hopping but reading this i think ill leave it a lil while longer.....

 

Im not sure what the point would be anyway, id love to say ill enjoy playing Starfighter for the sake of it but with nothing to aim for really, what is the point?.....i can enjoy pvp, aim for Epic Warlord and get new gear so its the whole package unfortunately we do need a reason to justify spending time on it and certainly not to be no good in a battle.

[Zharik]

Damage reduction is very common on turrets, which are an important target. They have weird amounts of armor, though, so maybe that should be tweaked anyway. (The delta in time to kill between someone with armor penetrating weaponry and someone without is currently huge, which shouldn't be the case IMO.)

 

So you think that scouts should be particularly effective at attacking armored targets? Think about it. This would also increase the viability of DR armor/crew members/abilities, which are currently... not viable.

[SammyGStatus]

Truly, the only thing that's changed is just the ability to evade for long periods of time. I've had to fly whole matches against Alex and Tsukoyomi from Jung'Ma focusing me, and the only reason I was able to keep my death count below double digits is because of having a quick BR boost time, as well as having a higher boost capacity (b/c the power cost has changed for BR. I don't think it changed for regular boosting, but it definitely feels slower).

 

Post 2.7, the gunship is still king in the right hands. Crits that oneshot Type 2 scouts still make me wicked happy, because 90% of the time I fire at Callem or Mae'thon, it always misses, and he's most often the person that needs to focus me or else the other team will lose (As a mastered GS, you're able to do incredible things like clear the entire enemy field, especially with damage overcharge). That's the biggest thing - if I get a damage overcharge, I'm one shotting bombers still. I'm still throwing down 8-10k damage with an ion AOE. I'm still communicating with my team to coordinate (whether it be a scout from my end drawing aggro to lead the enemies back to me in my LOS, or if it's telling another gunship to focus the same target I'm about to hit). The same way that I need to coordinate to take down the three people on the enemy team who're focusing me, the same approach to tactics must be taken when dealing with gunships. The main 3 are:

 

Don't charge straight at a GS (weave a bit, especially in a scout)

Don't think that you'll have enough energy to fight after you've been blasted by an ion charge (6 second regen stop is lethal)

Utilize your missiles. Many, many missiles

Get in close, fire a couple rounds and THEN lock on with missiles

Stay tight on an evading GS (post nerf, they can't evade even with extraordinary piloting, thus need someone to peel you off of them)

HARRASS THEM! Can't do damage while running away, which means if I can't get set, you can't get killed (less my BLCs murk you, but in a type 2 scout, you stand the better chance)

 

So long as a gunship remains vigilent AND communicates with his/her teammates, they'll be fine in this 2.7 world. I'm still able to top kills / damage very easily, while averaging 1-2 deaths a match. IT CAN BE DONE!

 

Also, Smolder uses a type 1 scout, and I'm very "on my guard" when I see him in a match. Also, on a final note, there is an optimum way to build a gunship that provides lethal firing power, and ability to cripple, AND reduce the chance that you'll get hit. When a GS says "I'm using fortress shield", you know he's not doing something right. Then when you hear "I'm running a slug / plasma combo", that's really just a waste compared to the potential of ion/slug. Since we're pretty much forced to take barrel roll, changing T3 to turning helps evade missiles just by flying. BLCs, Slug, Ion, Distortion Field, Barrel Roll, Lightweight armor, Regen Extender, Regen Reactor, Dampening Sensors. This is still your ideal build, and allows for you to wreak devastation throughout the battle field!

Edited April 14, 2014 by SammyGStatus

[Zoom_VI]

So you think that scouts should be particularly effective at attacking armored targets? Think about it. This would also increase the viability of DR armor/crew members/abilities, which are currently... not viable.

 

Even with the armor pen from BLC, scouts are still less effective at attacking nodes than any other class.

[Armonddd]

So you think that scouts should be particularly effective at attacking armored targets? Think about it. This would also increase the viability of DR armor/crew members/abilities, which are currently... not viable.

 

No, I just think we should consider the scout's effectiveness at speedily capping a node. I don't think that's necessarily something they should lose. I also don't think it's quality design that you can't quickly cap a node without some form of armor penetration (which means type 1 scouts and anyone who favors quads over heavies gets screwed).

 

Even with the armor pen from BLC, scouts are still less effective at attacking nodes than any other class.

 

Type 1 scouts are the worst, followed by gunships (gotta charge that slug three times and then get on the point and hope no one's gonna nom you while you're there). Type 2 scouts I find are actually pretty good at capping a point -- zip in, smack each turret twice, and circle. If anyone peels off from the other nodes to deal with you, you're not really disadvantaged any more than you would be engaging them in open(er) space (as opposed to a gunship, who finds himself without a hiding spot, or a bomber, who has to wait for his opponent to get close before unloading the heavy weaponry).

[Ramalina]

I've always been baffled by people saying turrets are hard to kill without armor piercing.

 

I like type one scouts, I strongly favor quads, and except for times when I forget to shift power to blasters I've never thought of turrets as hard to destroy. Do a good approach and sometimes you can melt them before they get a shot off at you.

[Kuciwalker]

Even with the armor pen from BLC, scouts are still less effective at attacking nodes than any other class.

 

Oh ********. BLC clears an entire node in seconds. You can clear the entire node within the duration of dfield.

[Kuciwalker]

Type 1 scouts are the worst, followed by gunships (gotta charge that slug three times and then get on the point and hope no one's gonna nom you while you're there).

 

Disagree, gunships have an easy time of it. Slug twice (you only need a bit over 50% charge) then BR into the node and BLC down the last turret. You're also durable enough to clear it the regular way without taking too much damage.

[Zoom_VI]

Oh ********. BLC clears an entire node in seconds. You can clear the entire node within the duration of dfield.

 

I'm sorry? I didn't realize we where talking about abandoned nodes, I haven't seen one of those since 2.6 dropped.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Armonddd]

I've always been baffled by people saying turrets are hard to kill without armor piercing.

 

I like type one scouts, I strongly favor quads, and except for times when I forget to shift power to blasters I've never thought of turrets as hard to destroy. Do a good approach and sometimes you can melt them before they get a shot off at you.

 

If you're using rocket pods (which you should, because scout), that's cheating.