Post mortem analysis on why STWOR PVP gameplay failed

[L-RANDLE]

what? you didn't have PVP gear in 1.2? I did. you could not be 100% competitive in all normal PVE gear. because that is what new players always started out in for PVP. or are you going to act like everyone was in top tier OPs gear? and I don't know anyone who ever ran in all PVE gear. they buffed expertise because for some AC/Trees it was more of an advantage to cap your exp at 1100 or so and mix in certain PVE mods/gear instead of going full PVP gear. but someone in all normal PVE gear would get destroyed. even when they added recruit gear, they still got destroyed. back then most WZs were either stomp or get stomped based only on how many undergear people were on your team.

 

so should alex have just not said anything? then he would "catch hell" for not ever communicating with the "pvp community".

 

what state of affairs? that people are outraged because xserver isn't in the current planes?

 

as I said before, game is making money, adding new content at a better pace than many other MMO's, WZs pop at a good rate, GSF pops at a good rate, can find groups for PVE stuff easy, low level planets are full... we have arenas, a new WZ in a few days... we even have one thread in the PVP section that is actually worth reading( the WZ suggestion thread ). state of affairs seems pretty good to me. sure, they can work of balance issues more and tweak bolster more, but overall the PVP is fun and not nearly as dysfunctional as it is in some other MMO's I have played.

 

100% PvP gear has never been BiS in this game. Prior to 1.2, not only were people mixing BM and RAK gear, and/or making hybrid sets, but new entries could field a 100% competitive set without setting foot into a WZ or raid, but people were blind then, as they are now, to what the actual numbers said/say.

 

The issue then was people showing up with level 40 greens wondering why they were getting stomped. Newsflash: they were undergeared for their level. If you had PvE gear for your level, you were fine from that aspect. I don't need to rehash old threads, but if you don't think it was the case, do some research.

 

As for the "PR Troll", no, but Alex should have said something along the lines of, "We hear your issues and are making some of them that can be addressed, a priority". THAT would have pulled much more weight and less "trolling" from the people that see the big picture of where PvP is going. Are you really surprised that thread got flamed considering the FAQ posting and a certain MMO launch? Bad timing would be the understatement of the century.

 

Bioware either already knows or doesn't care about your issues. Feedback is one thing, constant complaints, nay saying, and forum trolling are another. Quite frankly i'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here. You clearly don't enjoy the game in its current state, so don't play it. You've come to the forums, you've been heard, your shouting has fallen on deaf ears, so quit making a scene because its getting you nothing but high blood pressure

 

You do realize that sometimes you need to constantly beat people over the head sometimes? Just look at how many posts were needed for BW to address Smash before they finally did something about it. Relic stacking? Bolster issues?

 

No, sometimes BW doesn't know what issues are present, and if we don't constantly "nag" them, **** probably wont get fixed. So if "making a scene" in a forum is what needs to be done for my own subjective enjoyment, so be it. Be grateful that I care enough about this game to do so, instead of just folding up my tent and leaving..

[cycao]

real constructive posts.

 

Yeah because your "They have given tons of PvP content" is so constructive? If you took PvP seriously you would see what has happened and what is happening to what was a freaking fantastic PvP system. I have never seen such potential for a game utterly destroyed by a clueless development team.

 

 

You=Casual.

[Pistols]

everyone starts with zero PVP gear and everyone has to spend time getting their first full set of PVP gear. so its not about smart or not smart, its about without bolster, you are always going to have undergeared people in WZ ques. which means large gear gaps, which leads to unfun PVP. it isn't fun to get destroyed in PVP because of your gear and it isn't any fun destroying someone because I have better gear than they have. its also about making PVP more accessible so more people PVP. because like it or not, the idea that someone has to suffer for weeks in PVP until they get their gear keeps many from even bothering with PVP.

 

all I want from PVP gear is so OPs farmers don't rule PVP and so I am not forced to farm OPs just so I can PVP. I also want my PVP gear to be ok for the type of PVE I might feel like doing, like dailies, heroics, story mode FP or OPs. PVP gear in this game does both, so im fine with it. I don't really understand why anyone wants to PVP in a system where gear is the most important thing.

 

It's hilarious how nobody agrees with 90% of anything you say, perhaps you should take note?

Edited April 4, 2014 by Pistols

[MiaRB]

100% PvP gear has never been BiS in this game. Prior to 1.2, not only were people mixing BM and RAK gear, and/or making hybrid sets, but new entries could field a 100% competitive set without setting foot into a WZ or raid, but people were blind then, as they are now, to what the actual numbers said/say.

 

The issue then was people showing up with level 40 greens wondering why they were getting stomped. Newsflash: they were undergeared for their level. If you had PvE gear for your level, you were fine from that aspect. I don't need to rehash old threads, but if you don't think it was the case, do some research.

 

As for the "PR Troll", no, but Alex should have said something along the lines of, "We hear your issues and are making some of them that can be addressed, a priority". THAT would have pulled much more weight and less "trolling" from the people that see the big picture of where PvP is going. Are you really surprised that thread got flamed considering the FAQ posting and a certain MMO launch? Bad timing would be the understatement of the century.

..

 

lol come on just stop!!!! you have any idea what happens when I or anyone in full PVP gear decides to PK someone in 55 PVE gear in the open world? there is nothing competitive about it, at all. that's exactly how it was without bolster in WZs when people showed up in PVE gear. even recruit gear wasn't competitive vs top tier PVP gear. whether or not a certain mix of PVE gear and PVP gear was or is BIS is not what we are talking about.

 

so you would rather he was less than honest and just gave typical PR department approved non-answers? as I said in another thread, "no current plans", or "no plans", is not the same thing as NO!!!! we are NEVER going to do that.

[MiaRB]

It's hilarious how nobody agrees with 90% of anything you say, perhaps you should take note?

 

not as hilarious as people posting in forums of games they don't even play.

[MiaRB]

Yeah because your "They have given tons of PvP content" is so constructive? If you took PvP seriously you would see what has happened and what is happening to what was a freaking fantastic PvP system. I have never seen such potential for a game utterly destroyed by a clueless development team.

 

 

You=Casual.

 

better than the people who post, "they totally ignore PVP". or better yet, the people who post, "they ignore PVP and only add PVE stuff because of the CM".

 

you == fleet rabbit.

Edited April 5, 2014 by MiaRB

[L-RANDLE]

lol come on just stop!!!! you have any idea what happens when I or anyone in full PVP gear decides to PK someone in 55 PVE gear in the open world? there is nothing competitive about it, at all. that's exactly how it was without bolster in WZs when people showed up in PVE gear. even recruit gear wasn't competitive vs top tier PVP gear. whether or not a certain mix of PVE gear and PVP gear was or is BIS is not what we are talking about.

 

so you would rather he was less than honest and just gave typical PR department approved non-answers? as I said in another thread, "no current plans", or "no plans", is not the same thing as NO!!!! we are NEVER going to do that.

 

Maybe now, but back then... No. Hence EXP buff x3.

 

The reason Recruit wasn't "competitive" is because a. People didn't wear it (LOL) b. People didn't augment it and c. Decent PvE gear was actually more competitive by default because of a and b and the fact that EXP had a DR, even after they buffed it twice.

[MiaRB]

Maybe now, but back then... No. Hence EXP buff x3.

 

The reason Recruit wasn't "competitive" is because a. People didn't wear it (LOL) b. People didn't augment it and c. Decent PvE gear was actually more competitive by default because of a and b and the fact that EXP had a DR, even after they buffed it twice.

 

I cant ever remember a time in this game when anyone in normal PVE gear was any more challenging to kill than a gold mob in open world.

 

id be with you if you want to say recruit gear was a failure and bad idea, because it was. although, the intended goal was right. if they truly didn't care about PVP they would have just left it as is and said, "good enough". like some other games do.

 

why exactly is bolster a bad thing again? you say 100% PVP gear wasnt BIS before bolster, so what does it mater if the same is true now?

[cycao]

better than the people who post, "they totally ignore PVP". or better yet, the people who post, "they ignore PVP and only add PVE stuff because of the CM".

 

you == fleet rabbit.

 

The **** is a fleet rabbit?

 

 

PvP gets a small fraction of attention compared to PvE. I won't include the CM because anyone can use it and it is their easy development for money. I don't know why you even defend this game so much. I'm almost convinced you don't even PvP or at least not play on a PvP server.

[L-RANDLE]

why exactly is bolster a bad thing again? you say 100% PVP gear wasnt BIS before bolster, so what does it mater if the same is true now?

It isn't. PvP gear stats is not a proper comms outlet. It works for PvE, but not for any thing resembling competitive PvP. Current gear is OP in OW and more or less "useless in WZs" outside of a few considerations. These and other things are issues that "big picture people" see CAN be addressed and are falling upon deaf ears, which is why the "PR troll" got flamed.

 

Even the xserver thing. If many players are saying "we need xserver" and BW is saying "its too difficult and technically challenging", the next step is to determine "whether mergers are needed". There has been no indication that any alternatives are being explored.

Edited April 5, 2014 by L-RANDLE

[MiaRB]

The **** is a fleet rabbit?

 

 

PvP gets a small fraction of attention compared to PvE. I won't include the CM because anyone can use it and it is their easy development for money. I don't know why you even defend this game so much. I'm almost convinced you don't even PvP or at least not play on a PvP server.

 

rabbits like carrots. you said you have no reason to leave fleet, unless BW dangles a carrot in front of your nose. you might as well not even be on a PVP server unless there is some secret PVP happing on fleet that I don't know about.

 

what mass market western MMORPG gets much more PVP attention? PVE always gets more attention, even in games that claim to be more PVP focused. reasons why should be obvious. and really, I wouldn't list off some PVP things BW has been giving us if some of you would stop claiming BW doesn't care about PVP at all... or that PVP doesn't get anything. because its just not true.

[WhaIes]

rabbits like carrots. you said you have no reason to leave fleet, unless BW dangles a carrot in front of your nose. you might as well not even be on a PVP server unless there is some secret PVP happing on fleet that I don't know about.

 

what mass market western MMORPG gets much more PVP attention? PVE always gets more attention, even in games that claim to be more PVP focused. reasons why should be obvious. and really, I wouldn't list off some PVP things BW has been giving us if some of you would stop claiming BW doesn't care about PVP at all... or that PVP doesn't get anything. because its just not true.

Except it kind of is true. The devs don't care about PvP. All they care is about all the casuals/bads and their CM $$$.

[cycao]

rabbits like carrots. you said you have no reason to leave fleet, unless BW dangles a carrot in front of your nose. you might as well not even be on a PVP server unless there is some secret PVP happing on fleet that I don't know about.

 

what mass market western MMORPG gets much more PVP attention? PVE always gets more attention, even in games that claim to be more PVP focused. reasons why should be obvious. and really, I wouldn't list off some PVP things BW has been giving us if some of you would stop claiming BW doesn't care about PVP at all... or that PVP doesn't get anything. because its just not true.

 

That's animal stereotyping and I'm going with PvP/RP server.

[MiaRB]

It isn't. PvP gear stats is not a proper comms outlet. It works for PvE, but not for any thing resembling competitive PvP. Current gear is OP in OW and more or less "useless in WZs" outside of a few considerations. These and other things are issues that "big picture people" see CAN be addressed and are falling upon deaf ears, which is why the "PR troll" got flamed.

 

Even the xserver thing. If many players are saying "we need xserver" and BW is saying "its too difficult and technically challenging", the next step is to determine "whether mergers are needed". There has been no indication that any alternatives are being explored.

 

you really are funny. PVP gear is useless in WZs? really? you and all the other "competitive PVP" pros, all roll into WZs without any PVP gear?

 

PVP gear should be about equal to full top tier PVE gear in OW or maybe just a tad better to give a placebo to people who want gear advantages. its ok that top tier PVP gear destroys normal PVE gear in open world because so does top tier PVE gear.

 

what do you "big picture" game dev experts( who don't seem to have even a basic understanding of software development ) want PVP gear to be? you want it to be much greater than PVE gear inside of WZs, so you can pug stomp easier? you want it to be just for PVP and useless even vs normal quest mobs? or do you want it to be equal to top tier PVE gear in every way?

 

by the way, calling him a "PR troll" is another reason why your opinions are nullified. oh yeah and, I find it funny that you call him a PR troll, but just a little while ago you said he should have given a PR non-answer instead of being honest. great job.

[MiaRB]

That's animal stereotyping and I'm going with PvP/RP server.

 

ok, i take it back. so no need to report me to PETA!!!

[L-RANDLE]

you really are funny. PVP gear is useless in WZs? really? you and all the other "competitive PVP" pros, all roll into WZs without any PVP gear?

 

PVP gear should be about equal to full top tier PVE gear in OW or maybe just a tad better to give a placebo to people who want gear advantages. its ok that top tier PVP gear destroys normal PVE gear in open world because so does top tier PVE gear.

 

what do you "big picture" game dev experts( who don't seem to have even a basic understanding of software development ) want PVP gear to be? you want it to be much greater than PVE gear inside of WZs, so you can pug stomp easier? you want it to be just for PVP and useless even vs normal quest mobs? or do you want it to be equal to top tier PVE gear in every way?

 

by the way, calling him a "PR troll" is another reason why your opinions are nullified. oh yeah and, I find it funny that you call him a PR troll, but just a little while ago you said he should have given a PR non-answer instead of being honest. great job.

 

Relics and set bonus (and not for all classes/roles). Otherwise you can wear PvE gear, unless its raid quality. And for my "harsh" labeling, again sometimes shock value has its place. You can't nullify anything here friend. Keep trying though.. It's cute..

[MiaRB]

Relics and set bonus (and not for all classes/roles). Otherwise you can wear PvE gear, unless its raid quality. And for my "harsh" labeling, again sometimes shock value has its place. You can't nullify anything here friend. Keep trying though.. It's cute..

 

ah ok, so your definition of useless is... if its not vastly superior to PVE gear in WZs then its useless.

 

ill ask you again, what do you want it to be?

[MotorCityMan]

Bioware does some things very well. They have the best stories and leveling experience of any game around. They have a quality almost bug free game with a lot of content considering how old the game is. There are a lot of features on the plus side.

 

Unfortunately, they followed the Blizzard paradigm of tacked on pvp of throwing random players into an instance to play some version of king of the hill. Perhaps they had grand plans for pvp at one time, but Bioware was caught up in the changing economics of online gaming and had to scramble to change over from subscription based to F2P. They actually have done a very good job of this considering it had to be done in a hurry without prior planning in midstream. They have done an excellent job indeed.

 

It is apparent that Bioware just doesn't have the subscription base and resources to make pvp as dynamic as the players and probably they themselves wish. This state of affairs isn't just limited to Bioware. Many online companies are scrambling to adjust to changing economies of online gaming and are not able to devote resources to pvp.

 

Today's players demand more than players did a decade ago, or even 5 years ago. It remains to be seen whether or not some company will be able to profitably supply mmo pvp'ers with enduring game play.

Edited April 5, 2014 by MotorCityMan

[Pistols]

Bioware does some things very well. They have the best stories and leveling experience of any game around. They have a quality almost bug free game with a lot of content considering how old the game is. There are a lot of features on the plus side.

 

Agreed on all parts minus the bugs; not the amount of bugs, but them leaving game-breaking bugs live for months on end with no fix. To name a few: Back in the day, when more than 8 players could get into WZ's, that was live for months. Bolster, no need to expand on that one. Not all players showing in Ops frame, that was live for nearly 6 months, lol. I'm sure I'm forgetting others, but overall you're right, not a ton of bugs going around.

 

Unfortunately, they followed the Blizzard paradigm of tacked on pvp of throwing random players into an instance to play some version of king of the hill. Perhaps they had grand plans for pvp at one time, but Bioware was caught up in the changing economics of online gaming and had to scramble to change over from subscription based to F2P. They actually have done a very good job of this considering it had to be done in a hurry without prior planning in midstream. They have done an excellent job indeed.

 

Agreed on transition.

 

It is apparent that Bioware just doesn't have the subscription base and resources to make pvp as dynamic as the players and probably they themselves wish. This state of affairs isn't just limited to Bioware. Many online companies are scrambling to adjust to changing economies of online gaming and are not able to devote resources to pvp.

 

While very true now, they had the resources early on, and the feedback/metrics to know that PvP was something huge from Day 1. They never acted, heck even failed with delivery in 1.2, but it seemed the team at one point was poised to give what most players wanted. Sadly that was delayed until 1.3, and even then was only a shallow of itself from what was said to come.

 

Today's players demand more than players did a decade ago, or even 5 years ago. It remains to be seen whether or not some company will be able to profitably supply mmo pvp'ers with enduring game play.

 

Starting to agree with this more and more. TOR's PvP foundation was not bad, but the potential was there, just never realized.

 

In red.

[SgtJeremy]

I usually just MVP the guy who healed the most. Kills can be arbitrary too if you snag some cheap ones. I get 20-30 kills regularly on a decent team, I'm not afraid to admit I'm in the back firing off tracer and heat seeking missiles while the hard working Sith are doing the heavy lifting. Getting kills and doing damage are really easy I'm usually 2-3 on the team in both categories. Healing in my books is an art (Lol, tad over exaggeration) and you are usually everyone's target so you have to be smart not only to not use all your resources or overheat or whatever but also be aware of what's going on around you.

 

But I agree the PvP is really boring after 3-5 matches, and I Subbed for this game purely for the PvE aspects. I'm not a PvPer but for me it really lacks content. Different maps or something, Jesus. I played the Alderaan map 5 times in a row one time, then after that played Voidstar 3 times in a row and just said "I'm done, I'll grind a low level character for a while" It's sad when grinding low level characters on planets you've played 10 times over is more enjoyable then your PvP. Enough with the reskins for a while BW work on some PvP. I'm glad they have a new Huttball, even though I suck at it, coming out but it's not enough.

[Tevzz]

The **** is a fleet rabbit?

 

 

PvP gets a small fraction of attention compared to PvE. I won't include the CM because anyone can use it and it is their easy development for money. I don't know why you even defend this game so much. I'm almost convinced you don't even PvP or at least not play on a PvP server.

 

A quick look at the post history will reveal that this person hasn't posted on the forums since July 2013...I guess that sums up the thread since it becomes obvious, plain and simple, that they're living in a somwhat ancient era when PvP wasn't yet in its current state. So no wonder they dunno *** they saying, they haven't noticed half the stuff the devs said in response to all the raging.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Tevzz

[cashogy_reborn]

In red.

 

The Ops Chat Bug is *still* in the game.

[L-RANDLE]

ah ok, so your definition of useless is... if its not vastly superior to PVE gear in WZs then its useless.

 

ill ask you again, what do you want it to be?

 

"Meaningful", yet not OP in OW. Not consistently invalidated by bolster changes. Not subjected to regrinds for no apparent reason outside of giving people "something to do and another credit sink".

 

I already proposed how this can be done so bolster floor increases will have zero effect on PvP gearing. I also would add significantly more comm outlets so "grinding" actually gives you something feasible outside of gear stats. Just look at what Rancor mounts did for ranked que times.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=719106

 

These are simple things that don't require anything "too difficult or technically challenging".

[MiaRB]

A quick look at the post history will reveal that this person hasn't posted on the forums since July 2013...I guess that sums up the thread since it becomes obvious, plain and simple, that they're living in a somwhat ancient era when PvP wasn't yet in its current state. So no wonder they dunno *** they saying, they haven't noticed half the stuff the devs said in response to all the raging.

 

ive read everything devs have said. maybe you havnt, because that FAQ wasn't the first time BW said, "no plans", for xserver and no new kill trading quests. so why all the outrage when it was nothing new? unless you are just looking for something to be outraged about. also, all he said was no plans, he didn't say, "no, NEVER". player housing and guildships were "no plans" also until they announced them.

 

the current raging is no dif than past raging that has been on the PVP forums since, forever. is no dif than the raging I see on other MMO's I play. hell, isn't really any dif than on single player games forums. always a group raging about this or that, especially anytime a dev actually communicates with players.

 

current state of PVP? WZs pop pop pop all day long. more people queuing up for rateds now vs when it was 8v8 and no solo que. so lots of people seem to be enjoying PVP. oh right, that doesn't count I guess because its not 8v8. just like arenas don't count because the ragers didn't ask for them, lol.

[Pistols]

The Ops Chat Bug is *still* in the game.

 

Yeah, not as prevalent as it used to be, but I do see it from time to time.