Three UI Suggestions

[Verain]

> When you have a missile lock, it takes a lot of experience to know what kind of missile is being locked. The missile lock tone could change depending on the missile type, and the shape of the indicator could change as well- multiple missiles could be indicated this way. Currently this information is obfuscated a bit, and I think information should either be entirely hidden or plain as day.

 

> I see numbers when I hit, but I don't see MISS or EVADE when those things happen. There's no visual distinction between a shot I missed (the player) and the shot my character missed (the die roll). This is a real disconnect, and is a definite barrier to new players (who aren't sure what's going on, and may dismiss the game as too hard or laggy), but is also lame for experienced players.

 

> Health numbers or any method of viewing health and shields besides recognizing the difference between reds and greens. Two issues to this: this doesn't work with most color blind men, and second, why have to gauge intensities any way? Again, experienced players who have normal vision are pretty much able to guess a hull value within 5-10% based on the color, but why even have this as the only way to do it?

 

> Bonus: Speedometer? Artificial Horizon? The speedometer implied by what you are doing (where on the throttle) but would be pretty sweet. An Artificial Horizon isn't necessary in most of the game- with experience, you'll know your orientation based on what you are looking at, even if for some reason you lost track of your angle, something that, with experience, becomes relatively rare. But why not have this as an option somewhere?

 

 

 

Basically, there's some information that the UI gives to us, but in some cases it doesn't give it to us in a great way. Some of these are meant to turn time into a resource to some degree- for instance, the time you spend checking your 6 for a gunship is time you aren't looking forward and shooting effectively. But was it a deliberate decision to turn extreme UI familiarity into a resource as well? I sorta doubt it. These rather obfuscated details ARE present, but you need a lot of practice to be able to squeeze them out. Why not make them easier to read? While not everything that makes a game 'easier' is good, neither is everything that makes a game 'harder'.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Verain

[Altheran]

I am a long date advocate for miss/evade info I can only support when it brought to the light.

 

But there are two other things that I personally think are lacking :

 

- Engine ability cost shown on UI

Wether be it shown with a bar crossing engine pool or a layer around the pool, but something that shows the minimal amount of Engine power to use Engine abilities. Their cost is written nowhere, and soon the activation cost won't be normalized anymore (Barrel Roll and Power Dive).

 

- A co-pilot visual and vocal warning that we're hitting the bottom of our ammunition capacity (secondary weapons).

Edited March 28, 2014 by Altheran

[Kuciwalker]

I like that missile identification takes skill.

 

I do strongly agree that there should be miss/evade flytext.

[Verain]

I like that missile identification takes skill.

 

Why? Why not make other arbitrary things "take skill" by deadening the UI until that is true? For instance, ranges on enemy ships, and the red indicator for "in range" could be removed from the display. Without them, you'd have to master how each ship looks at what ranges, and eventually become quite good. Why not delete that?

[Kuciwalker]

Why?

 

Because the entire purpose of a game is to introduce some arbitrary challenges that can be overcome through personal ability?

 

Why not make other arbitrary things "take skill" by deadening the UI until that is true? For instance, ranges on enemy ships, and the red indicator for "in range" could be removed from the display. Without them, you'd have to master how each ship looks at what ranges, and eventually become quite good. Why not delete that?

 

Because those arbitrary challenges haven't been a traditional part of space combat games, which usually did show show things like range indicators?

 

Because this arbitrary challenge is only moderately difficult and has a small and bounded effect on pilot performance (since you usually don't want to be hit by missiles regardless of type)? Because it doesn't penalize new players too harshly while still providing a distinctive benefit to experienced ones?

[Kuciwalker]

The information actually presented is also done in a reasonably intuitive way: longer missile locks beep more slowly.

[Kalphitis]

> When you have a missile lock, it takes a lot of experience to know what kind of missile is being locked. The missile lock tone could change depending on the missile type, and the shape of the indicator could change as well- multiple missiles could be indicated this way. Currently this information is obfuscated a bit, and I think information should either be entirely hidden or plain as day.

 

I think this will be even more important with the changes coming next patch. If they're going to increase the cooldown on evasive engine abilities, it would be a nice touch to let you know what's coming your way in case you decide you want to just 'soak' it instead of wasting the cooldown.

 

For the most part it's pretty obvious what's coming based on timing, but it would be a nice touch to add.

[mr_sim]

> I see numbers when I hit, but I don't see MISS or EVADE when those things happen. There's no visual distinction between a shot I missed (the player) and the shot my character missed (the die roll). This is a real disconnect, and is a definite barrier to new players (who aren't sure what's going on, and may dismiss the game as too hard or laggy), but is also lame for experienced players.

 

^this.

 

The others I could live without.

[Zharik]

^this.

 

The others I could live without.

 

So every time you pull the trigger, you want to see miss, miss, miss?

 

Do you know where to aim? (The lead target indicator. Your reticule will shrink when you are "on it". When you are in range, it turns red.) Does seeing "miss, miss, evade, miss"... change how you'll aim??

[mr_sim]

So every time you pull the trigger, you want to see miss, miss, miss?

 

Do you know where to aim? (The lead target indicator. Your reticule will shrink when you are "on it". When you are in range, it turns red.) Does seeing "miss, miss, evade, miss"... change how you'll aim??

 

Actually I just want information for my own part for how exactly Evasion is performing quantitatively. Afaik all the code to do this is likely written and only a few minor adaptations would be required. This is likely an easy thing to implement. I don't need to see "Miss" text just "Evade."

[Verain]

So every time you pull the trigger, you want to see miss, miss, miss?

 

I want to see "miss" if my accuracy stat was low and the hit die rolled such that a "miss" was indicated. I want to see "evade" if their evasion was too high. If those two just play tug of war, then I'm perfectly fine with "evade" in all cases.

 

If I shoot in space (not a shot that deserves to connect, one that I the player screwed up), then I don't need any text at all.

[Armonddd]

I like all of these suggestions and would appreciate them being implemented.

 

For missile locks, consider this idea and tell me what you think:

 

In addition to the upside-down triangle, you have a second interface item for missile locks. It's composed of a bunch of small blue icons in a row. Each icon represents one type of missile. Terrible ASCII visualization:

 

[Pr] [Co] [Cl] [sa] [Th] [se] [MS]

 

For Proton Torpedo, Concussion Missile, Cluster Missile, Sabotage Probe, Thermite Torpedo, Seeker Mine, and Missile Sentry. (Each of these would be represented graphically, not symbolically -- for example, instead of letters, the protorp square would have an icon of a large torpedo, the cluster missile icon would have a swath of small warheads, etc. If I've missed one, pretend it exists.)

 

When someone begins locking on to you, the current lock warning (upside down triangle and tone) activates, and the appropriate missile icon turns yellow. When the lock is complete, the icon turns orange. When the missile is launched, the icon turns red.

 

If you have multiple different missile locks on you, the icons all operate independently. For example, if one person is acquiring a concussion lock on you and another is acquiring a proton lock on you, both icons turn yellow. When the concussion lock is complete, the icon turns orange, and when it is launched, it turns red. All of this is determined independently of the proton lock, which progresses similarly (or not, depending on whether that pilot acquires a proper lock).

 

If you have multiple missile locks on you of the same type, you get a "multiplier" above the symbol. For example, if you have two people acquiring proton locks on you:

 

x2

[Pr] [Co] [Cl] [sa] [Th] [se] [MS]

 

The color of the icon prioritizes the most dangerous of these locks. If one of the above proton locks is completed and the missile is launched, but the other is still acquiring, the icon turns red:

 

x2

[Pr] [Co] [Cl] [sa] [Th] [se] [MS]

 

Double Volley clusters are considered a single missile (for ease of coding, if nothing else).

 

Thoughts?

[Zharik]

I want to see "miss" if my accuracy stat was low and the hit die rolled such that a "miss" was indicated. I want to see "evade" if their evasion was too high. If those two just play tug of war, then I'm perfectly fine with "evade" in all cases.

 

If I shoot in space (not a shot that deserves to connect, one that I the player screwed up), then I don't need any text at all.

 

I'm pretty sure that your accuracy minus their evasion = your final chance to hit. The game does not distinguish between the two as one modifies the other before the dice roll.

 

I was unclear that this was what was being asked for, and I can see the desire to know that your cursor is on the lead target reticule properly, but I ask one more time, "If you see <nothing>, <nothing>, miss/evade, <nothing>, etc. How will you adjust your attempts to hit the target?" (meaning your gameplay will not change, nor will your performance)

[Zharik]

I like all of these suggestions and would appreciate them being implemented.

 

For missile locks, consider this idea and tell me what you think:

 

In addition to the upside-down triangle, you have a second interface item for missile locks. It's composed of a bunch of small blue icons in a row. Each icon represents one type of missile. Terrible ASCII visualization:

 

[Pr] [Co] [Cl] [sa] [Th] [se] [MS]

 

For Proton Torpedo, Concussion Missile, Cluster Missile, Sabotage Probe, Thermite Torpedo, Seeker Mine, and Missile Sentry. (Each of these would be represented graphically, not symbolically -- for example, instead of letters, the protorp square would have an icon of a large torpedo, the cluster missile icon would have a swath of small warheads, etc. If I've missed one, pretend it exists.)

 

When someone begins locking on to you, the current lock warning (upside down triangle and tone) activates, and the appropriate missile icon turns yellow. When the lock is complete, the icon turns orange. When the missile is launched, the icon turns red.

 

If you have multiple different missile locks on you, the icons all operate independently. For example, if one person is acquiring a concussion lock on you and another is acquiring a proton lock on you, both icons turn yellow. When the concussion lock is complete, the icon turns orange, and when it is launched, it turns red. All of this is determined independently of the proton lock, which progresses similarly (or not, depending on whether that pilot acquires a proper lock).

 

If you have multiple missile locks on you of the same type, you get a "multiplier" above the symbol. For example, if you have two people acquiring proton locks on you:

 

x2

[Pr] [Co] [Cl] [sa] [Th] [se] [MS]

 

The color of the icon prioritizes the most dangerous of these locks. If one of the above proton locks is completed and the missile is launched, but the other is still acquiring, the icon turns red:

 

x2

[Pr] [Co] [Cl] [sa] [Th] [se] [MS]

 

Double Volley clusters are considered a single missile (for ease of coding, if nothing else).

 

Thoughts?

 

Part of the usefulness of a sabo probe is that you might get a target to "accept" a missile hit if they are being hit by more than 1 attacker. I know that if I have a choice between a sabo probe and ...well any other missile... I'd pick any other missile to let through (meaning I would "save" my engine break for the sabo probe).

 

Maybe don't reveal what type of missile is inbound until it is actually fired?

[Armonddd]

I'm pretty sure that your accuracy minus their evasion = your final chance to hit. The game does not distinguish between the two as one modifies the other before the dice roll.

 

But the game does distinguish between a die roll miss and an off-target miss, which is what we want to know about.

 

If that's what you meant and I misread your statement, my bad.

 

I was unclear that this was what was being asked for, and I can see the desire to know that your cursor is on the lead target reticule properly, but I ask one more time, "If you see <nothing>, <nothing>, miss/evade, <nothing>, etc. How will you adjust your attempts to hit the target?" (meaning your gameplay will not change, nor will your performance)

 

Your gameplay and performance won't change, but the feedback will make for a better experience nonetheless.

 

If you live in the US, try visiting Europe at some point, and vice versa. In the US, when you get to a crosswalk, you push a button and wait for the lighted sign to tell you when to walk. In (most of?) Europe, when you hit the button, it tells you to wait for the light. It seems like such a small thing, but damn, the feedback feels good. In the US, people hammer the button until the light changes. In Europe, that's just not at all common. Something about the feedback is psychologically soothing and leads to a less frustrating experience.

 

It will also cut down on the number of claims of "the RNG is screwing me over, this guy must have had like 80% passive evasion" as people are shown when the RNG comes into play and when it does not.

 

Likewise, it will also be a much more clear indicator for when distortion field is up -- something that can be harder to tell at medium to long range.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Armonddd

[Pilgrim_Grey]

I would appreciate the miss indicator as well. The text could be sized well to make this clear, not unlike in ground PVP. And in fact... I rather wish the criticals weren't red, but were a larger size. For the longest time I couldn't quite tell what the red text was supposed to mean (since you can see their green healing numbers, I thought they had hit some kind of power).

 

I'm a little ambivalent on the type of missile stuff, but I suppose it would be nice to know. Though you honestly don't want to be hit by any missiles, so it's hard to say if this nuance will make a huge difference.

[SammyGStatus]

I've also noticed that sometimes, the burst laser cannons don't actually display blaster bolts. Instead, I'm greated with the numbers of my hit, but I'm not seeing the lasers appear. This has happened a few times, but I'm not 100% able to create a condition in which it happens. Sometimes, there are no problems. Othertimes, there is an issue. I'm using a Razer Naga Epic mouse in wired mode, but even with my old HP laser mouse, the issue arises. If they add the miss / evade message, I could pinpoint the issue a little easier and confirm if it's my mouse or if it's the game

[Zoom_VI]

But the game does distinguish between a die roll miss and an off-target miss, which is what we want to know about.

 

Bw released a statement in the early days of swtor about the dodge/miss/deflect and according to that there is zero mechanical difference between those, they are their purely so the game can determine which animation to use. However you could argue that evade/miss could be added in a similar manner for the player's benefit.

[Armonddd]

Bw released a statement in the early days of swtor about the dodge/miss/deflect and according to that there is zero mechanical difference between those, they are their purely so the game can determine which animation to use. However you could argue that evade/miss could be added in a similar manner for the player's benefit.

 

I have no idea if you know what's up and I'm misunderstanding you, or if you need clarification, but I guarantee someone somewhere is confused, so I'm gonna expound on my meaning.

 

You point the cursor at the lead indicator. You are dead on target. You click, while still on target. The game recognizes that your shot will attempt to hit the target, and you are dead on the lead indicator. But, unfortunately for you, the target has a bunch of evasion, and the dice roll and you don't hit.

 

That's an evade.

 

Alternatively, consider when you're wildly off target, nowhere near the lead indicator, and you click anyway. Obviously, you don't hit.

 

That's a miss.

 

We (Verain and I) want flytext to clarify these situations, because it's really frustrating when we don't know. It'll also clarify when RNG hates you and when your aim is just bad.

[Kuciwalker]

I have no idea if you know what's up and I'm misunderstanding you, or if you need clarification, but I guarantee someone somewhere is confused, so I'm gonna expound on my meaning.

 

You point the cursor at the lead indicator. You are dead on target. You click, while still on target. The game recognizes that your shot will attempt to hit the target, and you are dead on the lead indicator. But, unfortunately for you, the target has a bunch of evasion, and the dice roll and you don't hit.

 

That's an evade.

 

Alternatively, consider when you're wildly off target, nowhere near the lead indicator, and you click anyway. Obviously, you don't hit.

 

That's a miss.

 

We (Verain and I) want flytext to clarify these situations, because it's really frustrating when we don't know. It'll also clarify when RNG hates you and when your aim is just bad.

 

You actually misunderstand Verain, which isn't really your fault because he wrote his post somewhat confusingly.

 

Yes, the ultimate objective is to distinguish between a miss that is a result of a die roll and a miss that is a result of not having the cursor on the target.

 

However, the distinction between "miss" and "evade" as he stated it (at least as I understood him) would be like it is in the ground game - "miss" means you missed because your accuracy is insufficient, "evade" means you missed because the target's dodge chance was high enough. Yes, I know these are mechanically the same. So do the developers. However, the ground game does distinguish them for animation and flytext purposes. I assume the method it uses is something like this:

 

Imagine I have 90% accuracy and you have 10% defense. Then the game rolls a d100. On a result of 01-80, I hit. On a result of 81-90, you dodge. On a result of 91-00, I miss.

[Verain]

Kuciwalker is correct, and my phrasing is incorrect. However, we are all saying the same thing.

 

I said "I see numbers when I hit, but I don't see MISS or EVADE when those things happen. There's no visual distinction between a shot I missed (the player) and the shot my character missed (the die roll)."

 

When you roll the combat die, there's a "MISS" result and an "EVADE" result. Either of those is a reasonable response for flytext should you correctly target the enemy and the COMBAT DIE result in the miss. You guys claim that that MISS and EVADE are the same thing (and that's quite possible), with them just playing tug of war, and that's fine too.

 

I think it was read as "if you click out of the circle it says MISS and if you click in the circle it gives you the damage, or EVADE if there is none due to combat die". That would be fine too, but it wasn't what I meant.

 

I mean this: "If you click in the circle, it either says EVADE or it tells you the damage you did." With clicking out of the circle remaining unchanged (and saying nothing).

[Armonddd]

What I have learned from this thread is that words am hard.

[mr_sim]

I'm pretty sure that your accuracy minus their evasion = your final chance to hit. The game does not distinguish between the two as one modifies the other before the dice roll.

 

I was unclear that this was what was being asked for, and I can see the desire to know that your cursor is on the lead target reticule properly, but I ask one more time, "If you see <nothing>, <nothing>, miss/evade, <nothing>, etc. How will you adjust your attempts to hit the target?" (meaning your gameplay will not change, nor will your performance)

 

You seem to be stuck in this idea that this is all about adjusting our aim. Yes I do want feedback on if my aim is good especially on the slower firing weapons like Heavy Lasers. However there is some min/max ability in GSF and Evasion feedback is very important, also that feedback would be valuable for us on the forums for balance discussions.

[Zoom_VI]

I have no idea if you know what's up and I'm misunderstanding you, or if you need clarification, but I guarantee someone somewhere is confused, so I'm gonna expound on my meaning.

I know which way down is, because of gravity and I assume up is the other way?

 

EDIT: My point was cover better by Kuci in his post

[TrinityLyre]

> When you have a missile lock, it takes a lot of experience to know what kind of missile is being locked. The missile lock tone could change depending on the missile type, and the shape of the indicator could change as well- multiple missiles could be indicated this way. Currently this information is obfuscated a bit, and I think information should either be entirely hidden or plain as day.

I disagree here, see Kuciwalker's post. Further, this just complicates the UI and makes learning it an even more daunting experience for newer players. As if they didn't already have it hard enough (ref: the 3 million screenshots of people farming newbies for 100k+). Would it benefit veteran pilots? Sure. Does it do enough to justify spending the time on it as opposed to the many other things this game could have developed? Questionable at best, you're already able to distinguish much (not all) of the information this would provide as-is.

 

> I see numbers when I hit, but I don't see MISS or EVADE when those things happen. There's no visual distinction between a shot I missed (the player) and the shot my character missed (the die roll). This is a real disconnect, and is a definite barrier to new players (who aren't sure what's going on, and may dismiss the game as too hard or laggy), but is also lame for experienced players.

I see no problem with this as long as there's an option to turn it off. I don't want to have my screen blocked with text just because I'm firing Rapid-fire Laser Cannons (assuming they actually become a valid choice on many ships).

 

> Health numbers or any method of viewing health and shields besides recognizing the difference between reds and greens. Two issues to this: this doesn't work with most color blind men, and second, why have to gauge intensities any way? Again, experienced players who have normal vision are pretty much able to guess a hull value within 5-10% based on the color, but why even have this as the only way to do it?

Sure, I never understood why the enemy targets have their health and shields in percentages but ours weren't.

 

> Bonus: Speedometer? Artificial Horizon? The speedometer implied by what you are doing (where on the throttle) but would be pretty sweet. An Artificial Horizon isn't necessary in most of the game- with experience, you'll know your orientation based on what you are looking at, even if for some reason you lost track of your angle, something that, with experience, becomes relatively rare. But why not have this as an option somewhere?

I don't think either of these things are necessary and just add to screen clutter. A speedometer doesn't help nearly as much if you don't know the speed your target is traveling at (this was awesome in TIE Fighter and similar games). Point at a satellite, mesa, capital ship or structure and your orientation will be evident. I'd like the ability to manipulate my UI more to make it cleaner and neater, not more cluttered.

 

While not everything that makes a game 'easier' is good, neither is everything that makes a game 'harder'.

True, and there are definitely multiple angles to approach this. I think as long as the UI remains customizable I wouldn't really have a problem with any of the additions, but I feel like the development time could be better spent elsewhere (given that we only have two game modes and "4" maps). I assume they'd want to work on items that would benefit the player base as a whole first and work down from there.