What exactly are feedback threads good for?

[kaimelion]

When I asked which abilities were free, and he replied with Force Scream and Smash, and even mentioned Double Saber Throw (which is incorrect, as Smash is not free), I guess I don't see that as "clearly" pointing out their easy resource management "in a sarcastic manner." What I see is someone trying to tell me that Smash is free, which it isn't in that spec.

 

The reason I harp on this is that the VAST majority of complaints I see about Smash on these forums comes from people that demonstrate they not only have never played the class, but they in fact have no idea how it works. I mean, when I see people calling for a nerf to Smash/Force Sweep for all Knights/Warriors, because it's an AoE that does 10K+ damage, it's very clear that person has no clue what they're on about, and are just nerd-raging on the forums.

 

 

 

Two things: first, losing to a good player happens regardless of the classes/specs involved. I never said anyone was "TERRIBLE!" for losing to Smash. I said Smash's sustained dps was "TERRIBLE!"

 

Second, who cares HOW a spec works, as long as the end results are balanced against other classes? I mean, Smash doesn't use RNG. Carnage does. If "there is a high chance for Carnage to overcome the class", then what does that mean on the importance of RNG vs no RNG?

 

Now whether you consider Smash balanced against other classes is the actual argument. I don't see the problem in it. Some specs beat it, some lose to it. It's AoE quality is great against people who don't realize that clustering is bad when you see a Marauder 30m away. The class suffers greatly against those who do realize that. In my experience, it performs well enough to be played, without being so OP as to ruin games. But that's my experience.

 

 

 

 

See everything above. Especially my last paragraph. Beating an "overpowered cleave" just requires some situational awareness.

 

Ahaha, you are just stupid. Smash IS free.. Just test is yourself. TBH, this was just the proof, that you have no idea, what you are actually talking about.

I have a valor 100 smasher on rep and 2 valor 70 on imp. I get out DPSt on my smasher in maybe 2-3 of 100 WZs. 40+ days /played on a smasher. Yes, I do believe I know about smashing.

I care about how a spec works, as it directly effects the endresults against other classes.

And with clustering. How do you want to avoid clustering with the current mapdesign? How? PLS tell me, where 7 people should position themselves to kite smashers, LoS the range DPS, stil being in LoS of your teammates to heal them, and not overextending? HOW? PLS TELL ME?

Have you ever looked at a combat log of a smasher in a WZ? 40k damage in 1 GCD. Easily 3k DPS as long as your enemies are alive. You want to tell me, that this is okay, punishing people so hard for stacking? And its not even, that you tried hard to punish them. You just hop in there and smash.

[waterboytkd]

Ahaha, you are just stupid. Smash IS free.. Just test is yourself. TBH, this was just the proof, that you have no idea, what you are actually talking about.

I have a valor 100 smasher on rep and 2 valor 70 on imp. I get out DPSt on my smasher in maybe 2-3 of 100 WZs. 40+ days /played on a smasher. Yes, I do believe I know about smashing.

I care about how a spec works, as it directly effects the endresults against other classes.

And with clustering. How do you want to avoid clustering with the current mapdesign? How? PLS tell me, where 7 people should position themselves to kite smashers, LoS the range DPS, stil being in LoS of your teammates to heal them, and not overextending? HOW? PLS TELL ME?

Have you ever looked at a combat log of a smasher in a WZ? 40k damage in 1 GCD. Easily 3k DPS as long as your enemies are alive. You want to tell me, that this is okay, punishing people so hard for stacking? And its not even, that you tried hard to punish them. You just hop in there and smash.

 

Really? Shockwave is your "Smash is free"? So...a free smash every 30 fury? How many smashes inbetween is that? Juggs/Guardians are probably refreshing their Enrage a little faster, but if you're actually complaining about Smash spec'd Juggs/Guardians, then, well, I don't know what to tell you. I guess 2.7 is the update for you.

 

As for positioning...are you trying to have every team member on your team stay in LoS of every team member on your team while avoiding every LoS of every opponent? Well, yeah, if you do that, you're gonna be clustered, all of you, behind the same rock. Why shouldn't a spec exist to punish people for doing that? Why shouldn't a spec be able to force a team to spread out?

[Clasmae]

Really? Shockwave is your "Smash is free"? So...a free smash every 30 fury? How many smashes inbetween is that? Juggs/Guardians are probably refreshing their Enrage a little faster, but if you're actually complaining about Smash spec'd Juggs/Guardians, then, well, I don't know what to tell you. I guess 2.7 is the update for you.

 

As for positioning...are you trying to have every team member on your team stay in LoS of every team member on your team while avoiding every LoS of every opponent? Well, yeah, if you do that, you're gonna be clustered, all of you, behind the same rock. Why shouldn't a spec exist to punish people for doing that? Why shouldn't a spec be able to force a team to spread out?

 

There are a lot of situations where you have to you..know kill the healer, sometimes you just cant help but stack like in novare coast keeping ppl off the node

[waterboytkd]

There are a lot of situations where you have to you..know kill the healer, sometimes you just cant help but stack like in novare coast keeping ppl off the node

 

Sure, and that's when Smash gets to shine. I really don't see the problem with it, still. It's optimal sometimes. Other times, a different class/spec is optimal. How is this a problem? There is nothing intrinsically wrong with auto-crit AoE. It's only a problem it if obviates every other option out there. And in this case, it doesn't.

[Clasmae]

Sure, and that's when Smash gets to shine. I really don't see the problem with it, still. It's optimal sometimes. Other times, a different class/spec is optimal. How is this a problem? There is nothing intrinsically wrong with auto-crit AoE. It's only a problem it if obviates every other option out there. And in this case, it doesn't.

 

Before i spill the list I don't really care about the spec much so this isn't really a QQ from me:

 

It's the frequency and the insanely high damage that smash (that comes with that autocrit), the root from FC, the ability to have a 2nd gap closer (especially for snipers and gunslingers who are supposed to have gap closer immunity and the ability to use it if they use leg shot), the insanely high crit from single target moves like VT, and more...in fixing it in the next patch, you wont even have to nerf the damage on smash just me make it a aoe spec and turn down the single target moves

EDIT: To actually answer your question, why it can and more likely than not obviates other spec options, is because its extremely easy to play, takes a minimal skill level...thats why every bad plays one in their SW/JK (not saying all smashers are bad), Annihilation is lacking in some damage and Carnage takes a med/high skill level to master

Edited March 26, 2014 by Clasmae

[varietasplus]

Countering smash is hard, and countering concealement without a breaker is also hard. By hard I mean the skill required to counter is alot higher, than the skill required to play these specs. 10k cleave autocrit, where alot of the PvP evolves around rather small scaled objectives is OP, especially since its so easy to accomplish. And the removal of the knockdown? OMG, now you need to deal with players fighting back. You say, that these changes remove the skill, without ever thinking, that the changes now actually require more skill, not on the taking side, but on the giving side.

 

But what should I say...arguing with someone, that thinks smash isnt OP

 

 

Your reply is full of misinterpretations.

 

1. Since you have a lot of attacking skills but only a few defensive manouvers (especially on GCD), it is obvious that countering another class is far more difficult than playing yours, but that is regardless of the skill tree. Each DPS class are scarry and frustrating to fight against if the enemy player is good (and you can tell that in a few seconds). Have fun against a pro Vengeance Jugg/Carnage Mara or any sniper, then come back and say Rage/Concealment is OP 1 Vs 1.

 

2. Everyone needs to learn how to sacrifise themselves sometimes to save stun breaker for the most necessary moment.

 

3. As for the difficutly of playing different classes, roll a Vigilance Guardian, a Gunnery Commando or a Telekintics sage after patch 2.7 and let's see which class's rotation is more dumb. The energy management requirement will be gone for these advanced trees (terrible re-design), so Focus is becomming inferior to all by all means.

 

4. Smash was not OP by design, players bunching up for different reason made it OP. Note: I do not deny Smash became FOTM and unique in utility, but players made it so by being incapable of dealing with it. It was a tool to sentence enemy standing in AOE healing or within guard range. I would have accepted either removing one of the Smash buffs, but removing both was ridiculous.

 

5. "And the removal of the knockdown?. OMG, now you need to deal with players fighting back." - this is quite an exaggeration. Concealment was never meant to fight face to face, basicly one of the weakest classes regarding defense, ridiculous attack skills out of stealth. The only chance this class had was to melt down the enemy in a short stun window and hope to survive long enough to mealt down the rest of the enemy's HP.

 

 

In general it requires far more skill to deal with other classes than learn you own.

As a matter of fact, only if you play all advanced skill trees will you be able to counter them.

It takes at least a year or two to achieve this. Yes, it takes very long - it is a reward only for tenacious players.

I truely understand casual players are the focus group (making PVE trees viable, Bolster, etc.), but killing unique trees because they can not deal with it is a terrible outcome regarding the variety of gameplay.

Edited March 26, 2014 by varietasplus
grammar

[kaimelion]

In general it requires far more skill to deal with other classes than learn you own.

As a matter of fact, only if you play all advanced skill trees will you be able to counter them.

It takes at least a year or two to achieve this. Yes, it takes very long - it is a reward only for tenacious players.

I truely understand casual players are the focus group (making PVE trees viable, Bolster, etc.), but killing unique trees because they can not deal with it is a terrible outcome regarding the variety of gameplay.

 

I agree with most of that. But saying you are killing concealement, because there is no knockdown anymore is kinda exagerated. Same with Smash. You still have your 10k autocrit and cleave. You just dont cleave for this absurd amount of damage anymore. Smash is a viable single target DPS spec in PvP (just parse it on the dummy for yourself and dont start with "yeah but i do 5% more DPS with carnage, duh"). With the little cleave it will still do alright.

 

Really? Shockwave is your "Smash is free"? So...a free smash every 30 fury? How many smashes inbetween is that? Juggs/Guardians are probably refreshing their Enrage a little faster, but if you're actually complaining about Smash spec'd Juggs/Guardians, then, well, I don't know what to tell you. I guess 2.7 is the update for you.

 

As for positioning...are you trying to have every team member on your team stay in LoS of every team member on your team while avoiding every LoS of every opponent? Well, yeah, if you do that, you're gonna be clustered, all of you, behind the same rock. Why shouldn't a spec exist to punish people for doing that? Why shouldn't a spec be able to force a team to spread out?

 

Naturally you will have 3 stacks of Shockwave for every Smash, so yeah, every Smash is free. If you dont have the stacks for every Smash when it comes of CD, you are doing it wrong, so my personal guess is, that you rarely encountered good smashers and also have problems understanding tooltipps.

 

And with the spec forcing people to spread out. Well, sure, a spec to force people to spread out is okay, but a spec punishing people sooo hard for mediocre positioning is way to overtuned.

[So-low]

Really? Shockwave is your "Smash is free"? So...a free smash every 30 fury? How many smashes inbetween is that? Juggs/Guardians are probably refreshing their Enrage a little faster, but if you're actually complaining about Smash spec'd Juggs/Guardians, then, well, I don't know what to tell you. I guess 2.7 is the update for you.

 

As for positioning...are you trying to have every team member on your team stay in LoS of every team member on your team while avoiding every LoS of every opponent? Well, yeah, if you do that, you're gonna be clustered, all of you, behind the same rock. Why shouldn't a spec exist to punish people for doing that? Why shouldn't a spec be able to force a team to spread out?

 

Every smash is free because every smash is used with shockwave. For maras, you get shockwave every 30 fury and when using force crush, so shockwave is available every smash.

 

Stop making yourself look like a fool and stop commenting on specs you clearly are ignorant about.

 

For the record I don't think smash is necessarily OP, and the 2.7 nerfs are taking it to far and making the spec useless for ranked.

[MrJurgens-II]

Countering smash is hard, and countering concealement without a breaker is also hard. By hard I mean the skill required to counter is alot higher, than the skill required to play these specs. 10k cleave autocrit, where alot of the PvP evolves around rather small scaled objectives is OP, especially since its so easy to accomplish. And the removal of the knockdown? OMG, now you need to deal with players fighting back. You say, that these changes remove the skill, without ever thinking, that the changes now actually require more skill, not on the taking side, but on the giving side.

 

But what should I say...arguing with someone, that thinks smash isnt OP

Anyone who had any issues whatsoever with Scamper, Smash and melee in general was just a bad. Plain and simple.

[varietasplus]

1. In Focus/Rage spec every Smash is for free and an auto-crit. It takes zero practise on a training dummy and only a minimal in action (PVP). Guardians/Juggs have an easier time achieving it.

 

2. I emphasized I understood why they nerfed Smashers, but I find it inappropriate to remove both buffs for secondary targets. Removing one is fine-tuning and a reasonable compromise, removing both is admitting the skill tree was a design disaster or pointing out casual players are ******.

 

3. While Focus/Rage is indeed still not crap in 1 Vs 1, comparing sustained damage is false for in PVP burst matters and Combat/Carnage is superior from that perspective.

 

4. Snipers complaining about melee classes is extremely ridiculous, clearly the best ranged class against them (as a matter of fact, against everything).

 

5. Claiming Focus/Rage is easy to play is just another unfounded statement. First of all, it is a melee class with all the disadvantages, a good ranged players laughs at melee. Second, with patch 2.7 PVE skill trees are becomming OP (removed RNG results in non-existent energy managment issues, immunity to pushback/interrupt), just look at Gunnery Commando, Telekinetics Sage or Vigilance Guardian. With the upcomming changes the rotation of these classes are going to be extremely simple, while 2 specs are ranged and Vigilance has roots on Master Strike.

 

6. Yes, the knockdown does matter, a mere global cooldown may decide the victor, not to mention to distraction it causes that may result in an extra GCD. Since once the stun expires a Scamper does not have much tool left at their disposal, it is not an exaggeration to say it was an unjustified nerf and kills the class.

Edited March 26, 2014 by varietasplus

[kaimelion]

1. In Focus/Rage spec every Smash is for free and an auto-crit. It takes zero practise on a training dummy and only a minimal in action (PVP). Guardians/Juggs have an easier time achieving it.

 

2. I emphasized I understood why they nerfed Smashers, but I find it inappropriate to remove both buffs for secondary targets. Removing one is fine-tuning and a reasonable compromise, removing both is admitting the skill tree was a design disaster or pointing out casual players are ******.

 

3. While Focus/Rage is indeed still not crap in 1 Vs 1, comparing sustained damage is false for in PVP burst matters and Combat/Carnage is superior from that perspective.

 

4. Snipers complaining about melee classes is extremely ridiculous, clearly the best ranged class against them (as a matter of fact, against everything).

 

5. Claiming Focus/Rage is easy to play is just another unfounded statement. First of all, it is a melee class with all the disadvantages, a good ranged players laughs at melee. Second, with patch 2.7 PVE skill trees are becomming OP (removed RNG results in non-existent energy managment issues, immunity to pushback/interrupt), just look at Gunnery Commando, Telekinetics Sage or Vigilance Guardian. With the upcomming changes the rotation of these classes are going to be extremely simple, while 2 specs are ranged and Vigilance has roots on Master Strike.

 

6. Yes, the knockdown does matter, a mere global cooldown may decide the victor, not to mention to distraction it causes that may result in an extra GCD. Since once the stun expires a Scamper does not have much tool left at their disposal, it is not an exaggeration to say it was an unjustified nerf and kills the class.

 

 

1. I guess we all can agree to that.

2. It took us 2 pages of posts do understand that.

3. Carnage burst is proc/RNG dependant, countered easier and less often. With Smash, you get your burst every 7 GCDs, with good sustained damage. I personaly think, that both specs have their place in PvP even after the nerf.

4. Agreed, except Sorcs as soon as there is something to LoS

5. Focus/Rage is easy to play. You know, when you get your procs, you have no resource problems, easy rotations, as a Marauder/Sent you are also extremely tanky and enough tools to stay in melee range. I agree with the buff to range DPS, but I need to see for myself, how it will finally work out.

6. Yes the knockdown matters, but do a degree, that the whole class is killed? Nah, I don't think so. Removing hardstuns is a good thing, especially a hardstun, that crits for 8k+ and even gives you a TA. You just need to play a little smarter.

[TUXs]

Because appearing to care gives you hope. Hope makes you $ub longer. Subbing longer makes them more $.

[AlrikFassbauer]

So just simply saying someone is "TERRIBLE!" if they lose to this spec is a no, no at the hands of a good player

 

Heretical thought here : So you mean that telling "L2P" to someone who complained about being beaten by an good "smash" player is pointless ?

Edited March 27, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[MotorCityMan]

Anyone who plays any class whatsoever with Scamper, Smash and melee in general is just a bad. Plain and simple.

 

 

/fixed

[cycao]

/fixed

 

Mad bro?

[Capt_Beers]

Why do we have feedback threads?

[Capt_Beers]

What ability do smash monkeys use that costs no resources? Aside from Force Leap/Force Charge, which are rage/focus builders?

 

Smash - Free with 3 stacks

Scream - Free after leap/obliterate

Zealous Strike(don't rememebr imp name) - grants 6 Rage

Double Saber Throw - grants 2 Rage

30 stack Berserk - Fills rage, possible every 18 ish seconds

Taking Damage builds Rage and Fury

Ravage - always free

Choke - builds rage as it channels

 

Really the only Focus spenders are Obliterate, Crush and Vicious Slash. There are some others but those are more utility/outside of the core set.

 

Rage spec, surprisingly, is quite good at generating rage. The only time I ever find my self out of focus as Focus spec is due to some weird circumstances, usually I use Transcendence and then have to use a bunch of spenders and the target dies before can Zealous Strike. Happens very rarely and takes a very unusual chain of events to happen.

[Kerensk]

I like the changes

+1

 

They asked for feedback and in said, "my sorc can't escape because he gets rooted while sprinting. And any time it try to do damage I'm pushed back or interrupted."

 

Then they fixed it.