Issues with EMP weapons

[Gerfaut]

I was going to post this as a reply to an existing thread, but I was worried it would get buried and I think this issue deserves its own thread. I have been flying two EMP scouts and two EMP strikes (one of each per faction) extensively against bombers and eventually came to the conclusion that neither ship was as good in dealing with bombers as simply bringing a minelayer.

 

The scout and strike also have to sacrifice a lot of effectiveness against non-bombers in order to be somewhat effective against bombers, and the sacrifice probably isn't worth it. I am currently in the process of earning more reqs on those ships so I can switch to a dogfighting loadout and forget about trying to use them against bombers. If I want to kill bombers, I'll just bring my own bomber. Gunships work too: unlike the EMP scout and strike, they don't have to sacrifice anything or change their loadout in any way in order to counter bombers.

 

I noticed that, oftentimes, the EMP field on my scout doesn't seem to do anything, even though I wait till I am really close to the minefield to use it. So I decided to test it. I approached a satellite that was being guarded by a minelayer. I targeted a concussion mine, and watched how far I was from it as I slowly approached it. When the distance to my target got to about 2500m, I used EMP field (which is supposed to have a radius of 3000m). The ability went off but didn't seem to do anything to the mine. I approached a bit more, to see if it the mine had been somehow disabled without being destroyed, but it just blew up on my ship once I got within its detonation radius. The mine was in direct line of sight of my ship when I used EMP, not behind an obstacle, yet EMP did absolutely nothing to it. This seems to occur quite often, although sometimes it does work. I have not been able to figure out under what circumstances it works and under what circumstances it does not. It is extremely inconsistent.

 

EMP missile on the strike fighter is both buggy and difficult to use. In the vast majority of cases, when attacking a defended satellite in Domination or approaching an area defended by bomber(s) + gunship(s) in TDM, it is not possible for me to spend 3 seconds flying straight while trying to get an EMP lock, without getting shot down. The lock-on time for that missile is way too long. It should be reduced to 1.5 second, maximum, possibly with an increase in CD to compensate. I'm not saying I should be able to single-handedly capture a sat or clear an area defended by multiple players, but I should at least be able to get off one EMP missile before being killed.

 

The missile lock is also buggy: oftentimes, the game will not allow me to even start a lock on a mine or drone that is in LOS, so I end up just shooting it with heavy lasers. This happens most often with mines, but sometimes also with drones. Drones take multiple hits with heavy lasers to kill, and sometimes I am trying to start a lock on the drone the entire time I am shooting it, and the lock never starts. It is obviously not a LOS or range issue, since I am actually hitting the drone the whole time with heavy lasers, and I also have plenty of ammo, and the target is at the center of my firing arc. For some reason, the game will not let me start a lock.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

The missile lock is also buggy: oftentimes, the game will not allow me to even start a lock on a mine or drone that is in LOS, so I end up just shooting it with heavy lasers. This happens most often with mines, but sometimes also with drones. Drones take multiple hits with heavy lasers to kill, and sometimes I am trying to start a lock on the drone the entire time I am shooting it, and the lock never starts. It is obviously not a LOS or range issue, since I am actually hitting the drone the whole time with heavy lasers, and I also have plenty of ammo, and the target is at the center of my firing arc. For some reason, the game will not let me start a lock.

 

I think missile locks in general are buggy. I've had plenty of times where my concussion missiles dropped their lock for no apparent reason and sometimes had difficulty beginning the lock. I wouldn't fault EMPs for this although I do agree they need a much shorter lock time.

[-Streven-]

I agree with you that emp weapons appear to underperform. I'd like to see the cooldown for the scout reduced to 40 seconds, For the missile I agree that a shorter lockon time would be a good thing.

[magecutter]

I noticed that, oftentimes, the EMP field on my scout doesn't seem to do anything, even though I wait till I am really close to the minefield to use it. So I decided to test it. I approached a satellite that was being guarded by a minelayer. I targeted a concussion mine, and watched how far I was from it as I slowly approached it. When the distance to my target got to about 2500m, I used EMP field (which is supposed to have a radius of 3000m). The ability went off but didn't seem to do anything to the mine. I approached a bit more, to see if it the mine had been somehow disabled without being destroyed, but it just blew up on my ship once I got within its detonation radius. The mine was in direct line of sight of my ship when I used EMP, not behind an obstacle, yet EMP did absolutely nothing to it. This seems to occur quite often, although sometimes it does work. I have not been able to figure out under what circumstances it works and under what circumstances it does not. It is extremely inconsistent.

 

I've had the same results. just today I strafed a sat that was covered in drones and mines all of which were well within the 3000m radius. popped my EMP burst right under the sat and got hit hard with 2 seeker mines and was sitting in the re-spawn queue wondering what happened.

this is not the first time it's happened.

 

I want to say that i made a mistake and misjudged the distance but I really don't think that's the case.

gonna post this in the bug forums and see what happens.

[Verain]

I kind of wish you had divided your posts into sections. Like "possible EMP issues" and "balance stuff I wanna talk about". Still, good post imo.

 

I was going to post this as a reply to an existing thread, but I was worried it would get buried and I think this issue deserves its own thread. I have been flying two EMP scouts and two EMP strikes (one of each per faction) extensively against bombers and eventually came to the conclusion that neither ship was as good in dealing with bombers as simply bringing a minelayer.

 

This is a balance observation, and I agree with it. I will point out that EMP bursts do not say that they are supposed to make you better at beating minelayers than bringing a better minelayer- especially given their ability to shut down engine components. I doubt I have as much experience as you on EMP guys, but I do run an EMP scout (with mastered EMP) and an EMP Strike (with his second missile concussion). I find these abilities good for locking down engine components- the aoe pulse makes my scout very very effective to fly with an allied Type 2 Strike, for instance, with an enemy taking literally any damned missile as a result. Meanwhile, this component seems WORTHLESS at dealing with mines, and of limited power at dealing with drones. I don't mean "I can't solo a razorwire", that's probably ok- I mean, if someone has up a seismic mine and a interdiction mine, the odds are very good that my 3500 pulse will either not kill the mines, or I'll get blown up anyway because of lag (I fly to 3500 and press EMP, server reads me as at 2900 when I press it, but has already decided that the mines are going to blow me up).

 

 

My balance suggestion for this is to make TWO pulses: the blue pulse only does the stuff related to ships, and a new red pulse with a 6k range happens at the same time. The red pulse hits the mines and drones. The EMP radius being almost the exact same radius as the mine detonation is pretty silly, especially being that the mine cooldown is so very little compared to the EMP cooldown.

 

Meanwhile, the strike EMP seems to have no power against bombers at all. Not only do the drones shoot away so far that they are barely in range of an EMP and the mines bug lockons entirely, but it is rather difficult to lock on for the purpose of mine clearing.

 

That being said- this missile is perfectly serviceable against enemy ships. It does area damage, ignores shield and armor, and shuts down engine components. This is all pretty good stuff, though I don't even bother shooting it at bombers, instead swapping to the generally much more effective concussion missile against them (unless they are sat humping, in which case no missile can strike them at all).

 

The scout and strike also have to sacrifice a lot of effectiveness against non-bombers in order to be somewhat effective against bombers, and the sacrifice probably isn't worth it.

 

I don't believe it really makes you that effective against bombers, but I disagree that this utility is really a sacrifice against nonbombers.

 

I am currently in the process of earning more reqs on those ships so I can switch to a dogfighting loadout and forget about trying to use them against bombers. If I want to kill bombers, I'll just bring my own bomber. Gunships work too: unlike the EMP scout and strike, they don't have to sacrifice anything or change their loadout in any way in order to counter bombers.

 

Gunships don't really counter bombers. Certainly you can clear a node of mines and drones, but you will never pick off a bomber unless they are derp. The counter to a bomber fortified node is to bring superior forces such that you burst the bomber down and convert the node, and to stop the bomber from getting to the node- a task at which a gunship is great at, but a strike is also pretty solid.

 

I noticed that, oftentimes, the EMP field on my scout doesn't seem to do anything, even though I wait till I am really close to the minefield to use it. So I decided to test it. I approached a satellite that was being guarded by a minelayer. I targeted a concussion mine, and watched how far I was from it as I slowly approached it. When the distance to my target got to about 2500m, I used EMP field (which is supposed to have a radius of 3000m). The ability went off but didn't seem to do anything to the mine.

 

I see stuff similar to this sometimes. I don't know if it's just lag though- I think it is. But it's still often enough that I don't ever want to blow my EMP near mines, or fly anywhere close to them. I don't know if this is really the intended use of the EMP, but if it is, then the devs should adjust it such that you can detonate mines without dying instantly. If not, then whatever- this EMP field is quite strong against enemy strikes and gunships, assuming you have any assists.

 

EMP missile on the strike fighter is both buggy and difficult to use. In the vast majority of cases, when attacking a defended satellite in Domination or approaching an area defended by bomber(s) + gunship(s) in TDM, it is not possible for me to spend 3 seconds flying straight while trying to get an EMP lock, without getting shot down.

 

That might be ok though. The missile does plenty of things. I do think I should be able to dumbfire it and have the EMP blast detonate on the satellite, blowing up all the mines, but that's probably asking a whole lot- the game doesn't seem to have physics like that at all.

 

 

The lock-on time for that missile is way too long. It should be reduced to 1.5 second, maximum, possibly with an increase in CD to compensate. I'm not saying I should be able to single-handedly capture a sat or clear an area defended by multiple players, but I should at least be able to get off one EMP missile before being killed.

 

It would be wildly OP at 1.5s lockon. It would need to lose the engine or shield lockout feature. This is a redesign of the missile.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Verain

[magecutter]

My balance suggestion for this is to make TWO pulses: the blue pulse only does the stuff related to ships, and a new red pulse with a 6k range happens at the same time. The red pulse hits the mines and drones. The EMP radius being almost the exact same radius as the mine detonation is pretty silly, especially being that the mine cooldown is so very little compared to the EMP cooldown.

 

not a bad idea tho I would suggest a 5k range as max. or even 4500m would be fine.

the 3000m or 3500m radius (the 500m increase is really not worth it imo) is just not enough to counter the mass of mines and drones that a 'fleet' of bombers can spit out.

[Verain]

Well, i think 6k would be fine as long as that red pulse was just the mines and drones, and did nothing at all to ships. The problem on live isn't "the EMP isn't good against a swarm of bombers". That's fine- one dumb scout doesn't have to counter bombers at all- it's more like "I can't even reliably clear a single mine in the open without dying". I don't use the EMP versus a minefield at all- it's very good for shutting down engines, but that's it.

[Verain]

Plus like, wouldn't a two phase explosion with blue and red spheres look wicked cool?

[General_Brass]

I am sorry but scouts can already take down far too much far too quickly giving them a buff of any kind at this point is completely out of line.

[Verain]

I am sorry but scouts can already take down far too much far too quickly giving them a buff of any kind at this point is completely out of line.

 

Are the scouts you are crying about Novadives with EMP?

 

I'd be pretty surprised if so.

[General_Brass]

Are the scouts you are crying about Novadives with EMP?

 

I'd be pretty surprised if so.

 

Crying ?

 

Why don't you try and present something that actually advances your position instead of going for name calling ?

 

Maybe you might be taken a little more seriously

 

Oh and btw, the obvious implication is that you are someone who has set up to abuse the OP crits on scouts and doesn't want a nerf.

Edited March 22, 2014 by General_Brass

[Zoom_VI]

Crying ?

 

Why don't you try and present something that actually advances your position instead of going for name calling ?

 

Maybe you might be taken a little more seriously

 

Oh and btw, the obvious implication is that you are someone who has set up to abuse the OP crits on scouts and doesn't want a nerf.

 

wat?

 

5char

[Kuciwalker]

Gunships don't really counter bombers. Certainly you can clear a node of mines and drones, but you will never pick off a bomber unless they are derp. The counter to a bomber fortified node is to bring superior forces such that you burst the bomber down and convert the node, and to stop the bomber from getting to the node- a task at which a gunship is great at, but a strike is also pretty solid.

 

Strong disagree. The gunship/bomber matchup could not be more heavily slanted against the bomber. There is no way any other ship is remotely as good vs a bomber as a gunship is.

 

I'll go so far as to say that your claim here is ridiculous.

[Verain]

Strong disagree. The gunship/bomber matchup could not be more heavily slanted against the bomber.

 

Match.. up?

 

What are you trying to DO in this situation?

 

 

The bomber is holding a node. His options are to charge the gunship or to hold LOS and only take some trivial ion damage from a GUNship hitting the sat turrets. The second option is pretty great normally. The drone layer doesn't even have to worry if he takes a full charge ion followed by a full charge slug.

 

If the gunship charges the node, the bomber's job is done. He simply holds while waiting for his cooldowns to spin.

 

If the gunship holds at range, the node remains the bomber's.

 

 

Now, "matchup" might mean the two are fighting in infinite space. A duel. A thing not in this game even in approximation. The gunship wins 100% of that, sure.

 

Who cares.

 

There is no way any other ship is remotely as good vs a bomber as a gunship is.

 

The minelayer is the best ship against any bomber.

 

I'll go so far as to say that your claim here is ridiculous.

 

I'll go so far as to say that your understanding of this game is lacking.

[zaskar]

you do realize you just ask for a six KILOMETER pulse? That is three and three quarter miles. For this to be at all fair it needs to do friendly fire damage. The 3k radius now is larger than a minefield around a sat with a couple bombers setup.

 

This is another issue of L2P, upgrade your ability. As a bomber pilot I can say for sure that when I'm hit I cannot launch new drones/mines and my current deployed ordnance is turned off. As a nova/bbolt pilot I can say for sure drones turn off when caught in my pulse.

 

I have no experience with the emp missiles fired at me or as a part of my loadout.

[OscarDivine]

I have several issues with EMP Missiles as they are right now.

 

Their lock on time is too long, their cool down is ridiculous and they don't still give off a pulse even when evaded by a ship.

 

Decrease their lock on Time 30%

COOL DOWN should be as long as a cluster missile, not a Proton Missile

EMP pulse should be released upon missile detonation or fuel depletion.

 

I played with them on my Pike fully mastered since their initial release in whatever patch. Swapped to concussions again, haven't looked back

[Ramalina]

 

The minelayer is the best ship against any bomber.

 

I'll go so far as to say that your understanding of this game is lacking.

 

I think that Kuciwalker's understanding of the game is something along the lines of:

 

"There is no way any other ship is remotely as good vs a targetable object in GSF as a gunship is."

 

At least when Kuciwalker is flying the gunship.

 

Despite the fact that I dislike the gunship playstyle enough that even when the optimal play choice is to hop on my gunship and start ion spamming the other team's ion spammers I still would usually rather hop in a strike fighter, I'm not sure that I'd venture to disagree with Kuciwalker.

 

Besides, why would Kuciwalker let a bomber get far enough from its spawn point to fort up under cover?

[Altheran]

I have several issues with EMP Missiles as they are right now.

 

Their lock on time is too long, their cool down is ridiculous and they don't still give off a pulse even when evaded by a ship.

 

Decrease their lock on Time 30%

COOL DOWN should be as long as a cluster missile, not a Proton Missile

EMP pulse should be released upon missile detonation or fuel depletion.

 

I played with them on my Pike fully mastered since their initial release in whatever patch. Swapped to concussions again, haven't looked back

 

Your proposal is way too OP.

 

The only thing that could be done, is giving it the CD of Concussion (6s instead of 11s) so that it has an acceptable retry time.

Giving Cluster CD would be overpowered as it would allow to use them as a killing weapon instead of an "effect" weapon. Remember that this weapon ignores shield and armor, making it an even better weapon to kill that clusters themselves which have no debuff component.

 

And considering the future changes on Engine abilities, I'd bet that the 11s CD won't be that much of a problem soon.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Altheran

[Verain]

you do realize you just ask for a six KILOMETER pulse? That is three and three quarter miles. For this to be at all fair it needs to do friendly fire damage. The 3k radius now is larger than a minefield around a sat with a couple bombers setup.

 

No, it wouldn't need to do friendly fire at all. The thing is, the current EMP blast can't clear a minefield. See, in order to clear a mine, you have to be with in 3000 or 3500 of that mine. Meanwhile, mines have a detonation range of... 1500 to 2000. This means that there MIGHT be a small space where you could go to detonate more than one mine, but more than likely there is not. More importantly, if the mines are triggered not BY you, you are within their explosion and die instantly.

 

Have you ever even tried to clear a minefield with a ship kitted out with this thing? It's a ludicrous proposition, to say nothing of the fact that the careful positioning required mostly eliminates your ability to dodge incoming fire. If it's a fortfified node, you'll likely die before getting in range, making your ship generally inferior to a scout whose plan was to simply barrel roll through the mines to trigger them and die.

 

A 6km sphere, yes, would be huge. But remember: in my example, that extra radius only hits drones and mines. That would eliminate the mines (which are on 20ish second cooldowns), and disable the drones (which still need to actually be shot down). It would give this blast the ability to actually be effective against minefields, clearing them out. I do not fear this build on my minelayer- it is much more fearsome if I'm on my gunship and he has any help.

 

This is another issue of L2P, upgrade your ability. As a bomber pilot I can say for sure that when I'm hit I cannot launch new drones/mines and my current deployed ordnance is turned off. As a nova/bbolt pilot I can say for sure drones turn off when caught in my pulse.

 

It absolutely is not any form of L2P. This ability is bugged, I've seen it with my own eyes from both sides. More importantly, if I'm on my minelayer, it's very rare that a scout has ever survived an EMP mission on the node, mostly because... I mean, the explosion radius of the mine is bigger than the trigger radius, and is about the EMP blast pulse.

 

Decrease their lock on Time 30%

COOL DOWN should be as long as a cluster missile, not a Proton Missile

EMP pulse should be released upon missile detonation or fuel depletion.

 

I'm not convinced this would be that fair. The missiles as they are seriously lock people down. I think we'd need to adjust a bunch of stuff if they were to get a faster lockon, etc. I do think that the cooldown on them is excessive- I suspect it's there to prevent chain disabling of engine components or something, but that's not really important or worth having in there.

 

 

Besides, why would Kuciwalker let a bomber get far enough from its spawn point to fort up under cover?

 

Catching a daring bomber midflight with two ions is a very rewarding experience, because you just saved your team like five minutes of garbage, for sure.

 

But the post that he responded to talked about that. I said "The counter to a bomber fortified node is to bring superior forces such that you burst the bomber down and convert the node, and to stop the bomber from getting to the node- a task at which a gunship is great at, but a strike is also pretty solid."

 

 

 

Why don't you try and present something that actually advances your position instead of going for name calling ?

 

That wasn't really name calling. When you come into a thread and shed tears about the Type 1 scout with EMP, claiming it can "can already take down far too much far too quickly", you need to justify that. What exact build is taking down which other thing too quickly? Link the build on Dulfy. Because almost every scout burst build needs either targeting telemetry or blaster overcharge, and the EMP scout takes EMP instead of the first, and does not have the second. The builds also normally use burst laser cannon or quads, which the EMP scout cannot take. So basically you are saying that a scout that can shoot light laser cannon with at best a copilot ability is just WAY TOO GOOD at burst?

 

See how this sounds silly? You are really complaining about some other build that isn't being discussed in this thread at all, a build or set of builds entirely excluded. You're probably complaining about battle scouts, an entirely different ship.

 

On live, the EMP on the scout is bad against bombers. I don't even use it for that. It needs a longer radius on the mine destruction to be able to do that job. I'm not entirely sure it's even MEANT for that job, it's so useless at it. But, like I said, if it was, then the mine/drone part needs a much bigger radius- double would be great- while the blue pulse that disables engines and systems really shouldn't be any bigger. Hence my suggestion of two pulses.

 

 

Oh and btw, the obvious implication is that you are someone who has set up to abuse the OP crits on scouts and doesn't want a nerf.

 

I'm definitely liking being mistaken for whatever hybrid of Type 1 and Type 2 scout has EMP, blaster overcharge, and burst laser cannon. In your mind, I AM LEGEND!!!!

Edited March 22, 2014 by Verain

[Pilgrim_Grey]

you do realize you just ask for a six KILOMETER pulse? That is three and three quarter miles. For this to be at all fair it needs to do friendly fire damage. The 3k radius now is larger than a minefield around a sat with a couple bombers setup.

 

The 3k radius isn't anywhere close to big enough to do what you describe. At best (when it actually hits mines) it clears out a quarter of the area near a satellite. Never been able to measure the area around a satellite, but even one bomber generally has things more spread out than 3 km, and you'd have to have an odd placement to your scout to hit everything they had spread out over a precise 3 km anyway. Do the geometry with it and think about it. Even if they had perfect sphere of stuff 3 km wide, you can't go in there: go inside and you're hit by mines and most likely dead (or close to it). So you have to overlap as much of your 3 km sphere as you can with theirs without getting too close. It's not practical.

 

If I'm fighting a bomber in my Nova, EMP is the "whoops, I goofed up the approach and now I'm closer to their mine than I should have been" because of the above. It's much smarter to try to sab probe a bomber or take out its mines from range (which is part of why I now use lasers rather than light lasers on my Nova) than it is to use EMP against their stuff, which I think is the main part of its purpose. It's also nice for disabling turrets while you take them out, but even that's iffy if there is more than one around.

[Kuciwalker]

The bomber is holding a node. His options are to charge the gunship or to hold LOS and only take some trivial ion damage from a GUNship hitting the sat turrets. The second option is pretty great normally. The drone layer doesn't even have to worry if he takes a full charge ion followed by a full charge slug.

 

If the gunship charges the node, the bomber's job is done. He simply holds while waiting for his cooldowns to spin.

 

If the gunship holds at range, the node remains the bomber's.

 

If we're talking about a single bomber holding a node against a single attacker, the gunship is by far the best attacker to bring*.

 

1. The gunship can clear out all of the mines in one ion shot.
   
2. The gunship can clear out the turrets without exposing himself to the mines, drones, or turrets.
   
3. If the bomber isn't holding LOS well, the gunship is best suited to actually killing it with ion into slug.
   
4. If the bomber is LOSing, a gunship has the durability to close on the satellite (especially if it spends a few seconds clearing out mines/turrets first), and it has the armament to actually deal with an armored bomber (BLC armor piercing). A scout that tries this is far more vulnerable, and a strike has to run heavy lasers to get AP (and has more difficulty with the turrets, etc.).
   

 

* A strike fighter with an EMP missile might, MIGHT be competitive here, but ion's AOE is far superior here.

 

 

Now, if we are talking about multiple ships attacking the satellite, you still want a gunship to be part of your attacking force, and it will be the most important part, because:

 

1. Ion railgun clearing mines, again.
   
2. Slug dealing with turrets.
   
3. The fact that the threat of the railgun forces the bomber into a much smaller volume of space, making it easier for the gunship's allies to finish it off.
   

 

 

And if we have multiple satellite defenders alongside the bomber... then you still really want a gunship, because all of the above + ion AOE is better the more ships are around a satellite + the more enemy ships, the more likely one is to be exposed to the gunship's slug.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Verain]

If it's one ship, it should be a razorwire. Then you can just hope to outplay him by a little bit.

 

If you bring the gunship, yes, of course you clear the mines. But then what? You can't go hug him. If you are the Type 2 Gunship, your heavies will not be very useful. If you are the Type 1 Gunship you have play like you've always had on a node, but you are always on timer. You're correct that if the bomber takes a stroll to your position, you can kill him with a couple well aimed shots but... why would he do that? Most bombers will just X under the node and call for help.

 

"You guys should go harass this gunship, or else if he brings friends I will die"

 

 

As part of a team, I totally agree a gunship is excellent, taking the place of like two other ships- because he can simply clear the mines instantly, and his position forces enemy reinforcements to go mess with HIM which is far from the node. It also locks the bomber down- he has a hard time circling away from an enemy strike fighter AND staying LOS.

 

 

The point is, a gunship doesn't counter a bomber. Because he doesn't. If I see a scout holding a node on my minelayer, that scout isn't going to beat me- he will have to let me have the node, get reinforcements, or die. In that regard, the bomber is countering the scout. The similar situation simply isn't true with the gunship.

[Altheran]

If it's one ship, it should be a razorwire. Then you can just hope to outplay him by a little bit.

 

If you bring the gunship, yes, of course you clear the mines. But then what? You can't go hug him. If you are the Type 2 Gunship, your heavies will not be very useful. If you are the Type 1 Gunship you have play like you've always had on a node, but you are always on timer. You're correct that if the bomber takes a stroll to your position, you can kill him with a couple well aimed shots but... why would he do that? Most bombers will just X under the node and call for help.

 

"You guys should go harass this gunship, or else if he brings friends I will die"

 

 

As part of a team, I totally agree a gunship is excellent, taking the place of like two other ships- because he can simply clear the mines instantly, and his position forces enemy reinforcements to go mess with HIM which is far from the node. It also locks the bomber down- he has a hard time circling away from an enemy strike fighter AND staying LOS.

 

 

The point is, a gunship doesn't counter a bomber. Because he doesn't. If I see a scout holding a node on my minelayer, that scout isn't going to beat me- he will have to let me have the node, get reinforcements, or die. In that regard, the bomber is countering the scout. The similar situation simply isn't true with the gunship.

 

I think you're a bit too fixated on node guarding. Following your reasonning, any ship can play hide and seek with the Gunship, and so he counters no-one and can only be at a disadvantage. That's a too narrowed reasonning.

 

In my opinion you're mistaking the Gunship inability to lead an attack on a defended node alone with an inability to deal with a kind of ship (here the Bomber).

 

You admitted yourself that if you're not alone, the Bomber most of the time can do nothing but get in your LoS and get shot and destroyed, like in any open space.

In any dynamic situation, the Bomber can only be helplessly destroyed by the Gunship if the Gunship spots him, or flee. Other ships can respond to Gunship's aggression granted they haven't been destroyed. Bombers can't. Or rather, they can, but they'd lose.

Their inability to try any counter-attack is due to being hardcountered, making a strike back attempt pointless.

 

So, the Gunship counters the Bomber, but is unable to attack a Satellite alone, making her unable to beat 1vs1 a defending Bomber although she's supposed to beat her... because it's the situation that counters you from the start.

It's the Gunship Paradox.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Altheran

[Zharik]

If we're talking about a single bomber holding a node against a single attacker, the gunship is by far the best attacker to bring*.

 

1. The gunship can clear out all of the mines in one ion shot.
   
2. The gunship can clear out the turrets without exposing himself to the mines, drones, or turrets.
   
3. If the bomber isn't holding LOS well, the gunship is best suited to actually killing it with ion into slug.
   
4. If the bomber is LOSing, a gunship has the durability to close on the satellite (especially if it spends a few seconds clearing out mines/turrets first), and it has the armament to actually deal with an armored bomber (BLC armor piercing). A scout that tries this is far more vulnerable, and a strike has to run heavy lasers to get AP (and has more difficulty with the turrets, etc.).
   

 

* A strike fighter with an EMP missile might, MIGHT be competitive here, but ion's AOE is far superior here.

 

EMP missiles are MADE for clearing a satellite with mines/turrets. Ion AOE is capped to 4 total hits per shot (3 turrets, 1 bomber (plus 3-7 mines/drones) = way too many things to attack at once) where as missiles have no cap on number of hits. They also disable the entire field for 18 seconds (upgraded iirc) which is plenty of time to take out the turrets and maybe the drone. The trick is to not rely on the ONE missile, take out half of the defenses and fly away quickly... come back after you disable what's left (or been replaced by the bomber).

 

Now personally, I only use the EMP missile on the Pike/Quell (concussion for the other) so I have utility vs anything and lasers are still a big part of their repertoire.

 

In a simple 1 v 1 at a satellite, where the defender is an experienced minelayer, the best attacker is a Pike/Quell.

[OscarDivine]

The missiles need reworking toot hough. I agree they're the best option currently to Counter mine-laden nodes in Domination.

 

Someone mentioned that decreasing their cool down makes them KILLER missiles? It would take three consecutive missiles to take down a Tier 0 Scout type 1. Seriously? Lasers kill faster.

 

My biggest qualm of these missiles is that if the target is destroyed before the missile reaches it, no pulse is activated. Or if the target evades the missile, no pulse is activated. It should go off regardless IMO.