Is it ethically right to play SwTOR?

[Jeweledleah]

Wasn't it Bill Nye that described the lottery as a tax on people that don't understand math?

 

not sure, but description fits at least when it comes to a great deal of people playing the lottery

 

that said, on addiction angle. is it unethical for a bar to sell alcohol and for an average person to patronize that bar, just becasue some people are addicts?

 

is it unethical for clothing shops to have sales for their customers, just becasue someone has addiction issues and overspends? is it unethical to patronize those shops and even shop during their sales?

 

here's an interesting one

 

is it unethical to shop at the used books store, knowing that not a single penny of your purchase will going to the author OR the publisher?

 

ethics are fascinating, in part because they are not absolute and neither is morality. its heavily influenced by our culture as well as our personally held views. they can and do change and evolve with time.

 

and my personal view in part colored by the culture I'm living in that no, its not unethical to play swtor, given their current CM strategies.

[DarthDymond]

ethics are fascinating, in part because they are not absolute and neither is morality. its heavily influenced by our culture as well as our personally held views. they can and do change and evolve with time.

Yeah, let's open the door on the moral relativism/moral absolutism debate that's only been raging for... oh, 2,500 years or so. That'll end well on a video game forum.

[theUndead]

Yeah, let's open the door on the moral relativism/moral absolutism debate that's only been raging for... oh, 2,500 years or so. That'll end well on a video game forum.

 

Its the SWTOR forums, anything is possible here.

[DarthTHC]

No exploitation is happening.

 

Here's the definition of exploitation: the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work.

 

If we assume that BioWare is not leveraging slave labor camps in Cambodia to produce this game, then no exploitation is occurring and it's ethically fine to play this game, unlike, perhaps, doing things like using any Apple product or wearing Nike gear.

Edited March 20, 2014 by DarthTHC

[Khevar]

Yeah, let's open the door on the moral relativism/moral absolutism debate that's only been raging for... oh, 2,500 years or so. That'll end well on a video game forum.

If you haven't read "Are Sith Evil?" in the lore forum, it was actually pretty interesting.

 

While debating in it, I had my first actual encounter with a genuine, hardcore, nihilist.

[AndasKastor]

No exploitation is happening.

 

Here's the definition of exploitation: the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work.

 

If we assume that BioWare is not leveraging slave labor camps in Cambodia to produce this game, then no exploitation is occurring and it's ethically fine to play this game, unlike, perhaps, doing things like using any Apple product or wearing Nike gear.

 

How about slave labor in Austin? Back to work Devs... we can't miss that promised date for housing

[AndasKastor]

To answer the original post - No. I do not believe it is unethical to play this game.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

I truely believe that Jesus (Rodriguez) would play this game so that makes it ethical in my book.

[Malastare]

i thought i explained it. if this is a form of exploiting people, then it is unethical. but the guy after you forgets that I am asking the question whether it is ethical or not, not making a statement.

 

I hope you guys don't answer every serious question like the responders have done so far,

 

You're getting frivolous, ill-formed responses because you asked a frivolous, ill-formed question.

 

You say that you're asking if its exploitive, but failed to describe any actual exploitation. You alluded to exploitation, but never described a situation and showed how it was exploitive. The closest you came was in describing an Economics 101 example of supply and demand. If you think that controlling supply and demand is exploitation, then its time for you to move to an island in Oceania, because virtually every commodity industry in the modern world controls price and sales by manipulating supply and demand.

 

In the real world, this is actually a necessary practice as it prevents price/supply fluctuations which would produce dangerous situations with essential commodities. In a game... its just a frivolous simulation of economics.

 

Let's use a good analogy from the real world: The world's diamond industry stockpiles uncut diamonds. One of the prime reasons is to maintain a low availability of cut diamonds and keep the price high. This helps them by keeping their profits high. However, it also helps customers because the customers only see value in diamonds because they are rare and are seen as a prestige item. I'll reiterate: Customer want them to be rare. They like them because they are rare.

 

The same happens with items in the CM. Bioware makes some items rare because players want rare things. That requires making it hard to get some items. Driving people to buy extra packs is the financial motivation, but don't believe for a moment that any player is forced to buy packs, or that they would prefer it if all items were easily obtainable.

 

there we go, again, for the 3rd time I'm not pointing out that playing this game is ethically unsound, I am asking if it is.

 

And for the 3rd time (who knows how many times by now) people are telling you No. They are telling you this by saying that the foundation of your question is unsound and invalid.

[Nickious]

How about slave labor in Austin? Back to work Devs... we can't miss that promised date for housing

 

I thought thats what interns are for?

Edited March 21, 2014 by Nickious

[Suromir]

This is a really stupid thread/question.....

 

what does playing SWTOR have to do with the ethical nature (or lack thereof) of the CM?

 

that's right it doesn't.

 

Therefore it's stupid to ask this question because of the CM. Especially since you can play SWTOR without ever touching anything from the CM (bought with CC's or off the GTN)

[Macetheace]

Understood. Out of curiosity, what do you think of my point above? My dislike of the Cartel Packs is less about "exploitation", and more about "lazy development".

 

I've sometiems wondered if that was the case, - if CM was encouraging lazy development, hadn't thought of it much.. it's really hard tot ell without being in on their process.

 

if the CM was enough to keep them going, then they won't have much incentive to do anything major, relying on what it brought in, but surely they would see the reaosn the CM is popular is because there is stuff to do in the game that keeps people playing and as such desiring or wanting to use the CM

 

except if they have a steady flow of new players in to match the flow out, meaning htey're quite happy for the game to feed on the existing development to attract new players who in turn feed off the cartel market to turn the profit.. But i doubt that . The gold would have to be subscription, more reliable than one offs, subscription needs an active game that is being developed. but does it have to be developed tenaciously to keep subscribers?

 

it all is doown to what they perceive the players are willing to accept - lower their expectations enough, htey'll accept little stuff - but then i don't know what sort of budget EA has giben them for this game.

[MariaD]

The question about ethics of playing is interesting, and no less relevant than the frequent discussions of Jedi vs. Sith morality. I address this ethics within the magic circle of the game: in-game events are serious and meaningful while in the circle.

 

Within the game, the code is law, and BW has direct government powers. Is it ethical for people with that level of power to influence in-universe economy directly? Do they have to be transparent when they do? It is as if gods played stock market.

 

I don't feel bad playing in universes with such effects. I find it fun to deconstruct all the behaviorist tricks companies try to use. I collect them - and the ways people resist. Similarly, I know BW can simply make galaxy people disappear without a trial, for a while or permanently. That's acceptable to me - in a game.

[ZahirS]

I actually find Unethical not to play this game.

 

Some good moral choices to learn from SWTOR.

[kirorx]

This is brining back the old ethics vs morals thng from college, lol.

 

Ethically I do think that if they are abusing the randomness of there packs and rewards then of course this would be ethically wrong

 

I don't think playing the game has anything to so with ethics, because its a personal choice it's a moral decision to keep contributing to unethical business practices

 

IMO I don't care enough about the cartel market to not enjoy the game, while I am not a fan of the practice and I dispise microtransactions as a business model, I am going to continue to play because in the end it's a video game and it's fun to be a Sith Lord on my days off

Edited March 21, 2014 by kirorx

[Beddlam]

SWTOR is exploitative to exactly the amount that every video game is, and it has nothing to so with the CM. If anything the CM counters some of the exploitative aspects of the game. Every video game (as well as many other forms of media) is designed to use the dopamine rush gained through game play to get the player to play as long as possible (this is especially important in MMOs with subscription fees). This combined with collecting, completion, and other common behavioral tenancies are carefully studied and used to keep players paying sub fees, or buying expansion packs and sequels.

 

Free-to-play models both utilize and circumvent this system by allowing players to replace play-time with cash in order to earn rewards. Many casual free-to-play games are designed so after a certain point, progression without paying becomes tedious and players either quit or start paying. Players of more serious games like MMOs tend to resent this "pay-to-win" model, so companies like BW only include cosmetic upgrades in their cash markets. They do this because subscribers are more valuable than free-to-play players even if they spend less money because their money is reliable and can be budgeted toward longer-range projects.

 

Also, BW can only control half of the price-fixing equation. They do, as all video game companies do, control supply by setting prices or controlling rarity of crafting nodes, or difficulty of and frequency of mob-drops; but they have no control over demand. The reason the black/black and white/white dyes are so expensive is not only that they are rare (other dyes of similar rarity are much less expensive) but also because people like them.

 

tl;dr: There is nothing that is exploitative in SWtoR above and beyond any other video game, especially not the CM.

[OddballEasyEight]

Is Bioware using child labour to put items on the Cartel Market?

Are they testing the dyes on cute fluffy animals before putting them up for sale?

Do they pay slave wages to their employees?

 

If not, then yes, it is ethically right to play SW:TOR.

[Macetheace]

He's not sidestepping the issue, part of your OP was specifically raising the question you're saying he answered:

 

And since in the end you are going to have to make a personal decision as to whether the mere possibility that BW/EA could be fiddling with the drop rates to control the market rises to the level of a moral/ethical concern, his point is pretty valid.

 

For my personal perspective: unless we get a (credible) whistle-blower who reveals that BW is doing something like this, or otherwise find out about it happening, I don't see the fact that it is possible for BW to fiddle with the RNG as grounds for an ethical dilemma. My undergrad college could have been arranging for professors to fail students just so they'd have to pay an extra semesters' tuition - doesn't mean that actually ever happened.

 

But again, what counts as an ethical line for one person is subjective - I can't really say a person who has a moral opposition to gambling packs in general (since they sometimes profit off of genuine gambling addictions among players) is wrong for holding that view.

 

To you first comment, I see what you mean, but it was in regards to how he came across, I needed to clarify based on what he opened with.

 

Secondly, thank you very much for responding, I was looking for responses along that line and to have a discussion on that basis. They can doesn't mean they do at all, completely agreed, if htey do, it's a porblem, and it is unethical.

 

maybe someone has some extra insights, but is that inviting developers from other video games to come and trash this one? that is a cyncail way of thinking, i don' tthink developers do, but i'm not suprprised if companies have CMs and media agents that do exactly that and are paid to do that.. going on forums of other games and sowing dissension, similary i supose CMs of the game in question do log on to their normal accounts and overly pump pro-active accolades and comments/documents in favor of their company to manipulate media in their favour. I get the suspeciion this hpapens here. It use to happen a lot in wow.

 

tell tale signs is when a player like me having no eaffliations to any game company, posts a topic or asks a question that could potentially yeild bad publicity/public opinion or be perceived with it, you can't help but notice a very speicifc and certain individual/group of individuals that always jumps on the response, very early on, attacks the poster with a short retort, in attempt to steer the topic favourably away. This is cos they can't officially close bad publicity threads without being perceived as not allowing people to air their thoughts, so they do so as players. Discredit either the idea/thought or the person. Now they could also just be fans, hence terms like bioware cultist or blizz fanboys.. but i ssupect they are employees not merely fans, no one is that blindly devoted, - how do i know? because i've been as addicted and as big a fan as any.. just check my play time and i don't do that.

 

Now i'm not that concerned to wonder every time whether this his happening tor to track who is doing it and when, I just observe it happens and probably does a lot, what I hate is when I'm trying to get something off, and i get this annoying interference stopping me. But i digress. ANd i'm not the suspicious type, trust me, so if i'm picking up on this..,

makes me wonder what else haven't i picked up?? huh well can't control everything nor should I try, but i'm responsible for my actions, so i need to carefully consider what i do, and what i say too it seems.

[ghoul_drool]

You're off your rocker, buddy. You truly are. So first, you come with a completely basesless accusation that Bioware COULD very well be altering the drop rates of items from packs unseen, which is total nonsense to begin with... and now, you're actually convinced that that's true because people rush to denounce your topic SO fast, they can ONLY be BW employees!!

 

Do you even realise how bonkers that sounds?

[Macetheace]

sometime s i know a forum can go quickly out of hand if you don't do things like that, i suspect this game suffered a lot near release becuase they didn't manage media well.

 

someone can post a grievaince which peole normally use forums for and before you know it , it's all about how bad this game is, and anyone who reads that stuff can be put off a game, cos you start noticing problems people pointed out that you never would have and that you never cared, and as such is the nature of these kind of people, i.e. the bulk of the video game addict, what they say is not often positive.. you need media agents to subtely restore parity and balance, and positive posts.

check some of my posts as far back as 2011/2012 including my first ever forum topic, noticing how things like that had skewed perosnal taste in wow taht i use to play, i didn't want to see this community go downt the same path, i would intetnioal post postiive things i find aobut this game, and it was rare in the sea of negativity.

 

In London, the London Underground part of the Transport for London network was facing extremely crticial and negative public opinion for the quality of service of the tube (subway) system, it was really bad becuase all people heard were delays, as announcements were only made to point out problems.. they quickly realized this was part of the problems, so started annoucning also or including what was good about the service.. if there were no problems with any of the lines, they would announce periodically, "there is a good serivce on ALL london undergrouund lines", simialrly if there was a problem on one line, like the Piccaddilly Line, they'd state what the problem on it and any others were then also stat "there is a good service on all other London Underground Lines"

 

This worked, and is necessary, i actually wish they ahd done this earlier on this game, because people got turned off SwTOR more baed on what others were saying rather than what their experience actually was.. i started noticing people complaining about trivial , actually very trivial issues like it was some game breaker for them which it wasn't, just because it was a rising tide of negative critique.. and i remmebe r thinking hmm "bioware really need to manage their forums like blizzard does" - the reason i suspect was that most of the then players were the WoW crowd thatcame over, and they were paritcualrly viscious on that game's forum, but the CMs mangaed them well through those exact means i spoke about above. and other means, like repsonding to postiive posts and ignoring whines and complaints etc.. BW was totally unprepared for this media intensity, and i personally feel THIS Is what damaged te game to the extent it cost Museka and the other guy and over 50% of the team their jobs.... it was nothing to do with pumping so much moeny into conversations etc.. Conversations are the most awesome aspect of this product.

 

and it wasn't the game persay, becuase the people that deserted, played this game for 6-8 weeks like full on addicts, and din't complain much during tat itme, when they hit 50 and had nothing to do, or coudln't start pumping supieroiryt like they did on wow, they got nasty, FAST., packed up and went.

 

i mremeber seeing comments like SWTOR is a single player game not an mmorpg -- abo****ely no logic behind that, especially when in my experience this game rewarded multiplayer moreso than it did single player thanks to social points, no XP loss for killing creatures or handing in missions in a group and a briliant way of depsoiting heroic areas to encourage more grouping. what it was was just bad publicity.

 

was it rival game companies trying to sabotage this one? i think there was that as well, or gamers taht had invested interests in other games deciidng for themselves to trash this.. either way it was handled poorly then, and responsible for the decline more so than anything else

 

so i understand the need for it, ther eis a line thouhg, cos then sometimes you can start jumping down every negative post/topic, or one that is perceived as one. This isn't one, but somepeople perceived it as one, and they were respondeding to me as if i wrote the quote, which sadly characterised most of my earlier repsonses rather than the topic at hand which is what i should have promoted ratehr than responding, but water under the bridge

[DarthDymond]

I'm starting to think alcohol is involved here...

[Macetheace]

You're off your rocker, buddy. You truly are. So first, you come with a completely basesless accusation that Bioware COULD very well be altering the drop rates of items from packs unseen, which is total nonsense to begin with... and now, you're actually convinced that that's true because people rush to denounce your topic SO fast, they can ONLY be BW employees!!

 

Do you even realise how bonkers that sounds?

 

hmm.. you see a classic example.

 

now observe this guy.. either a fool or a clever employee - firstly observe how he/she phrases his/her response. "so first you come with a completely baseless accusation that Biowared COULD very well be altering the drop rates of tiems from packs unseen" - he says referring not to what I said, but to what i quoted someone else saying - but already he makes it sound as if it is me that's said it - so now I'm the one making baseless accusations which is clearly not the case since i'm asking a question on ethics. the accusation ofc is made by Dawingole --but that is suddenly me - not concerned at all about what i'm getting at, but jumping straight in.

 

then he syas "i am convinced" when i am not, nor have i stated that I am that this is true.. and get the reason he gives for me being convinced DAwingole is true - b/c " because people rush to denounce your topic SO fast, they can ONLY be BW employees!! "

 

i mean, young man (even though you're probalby older than me), when I am convinced about something I would state so, i woudln't ask a question and request a debate and discussion on it if I was. And if I did, I would clearly state my side of the argument - and i would be open to a change of mind otherwise I would be declaring rather than discussing.. non of which is true.

 

and yes i suspect BW employers do do things like that, and as I took time to write about in the post above, it is necessary sometimes, I also point out there is a line too on how far you should go, but it's a free world, thankfully, everyone is free to give their opinions.. try not to misconstrue what I say. If you have done this intentionally stop being manipualtive, if not, please conisder more carefully before you respond.

[Jeweledleah]

does this mean I've graduated to being finally accused of being employed by bioware?

 

weeeee

 

now where is my pay check and personal customer service response, instead of canned text accompanying my closed tickets that didn't have their issues solved and where text has nothing to do with actual problem described in a ticket?

 

oh, OP? I know a fabulous pattern for a tinfoil hat, if you'd like I could share with you

[ghoul_drool]

No, if you start a thread with a quote by someone else, you start the thread. What you're basically doing is saying : I've heard a friend say that Bioware does (horrible thing), can this be true?? And if it is, would you even play this game? That's, in my opinion, just as bad as making the statement yourself. You've just tried to disguise it with quote that someone else did so you don't have to take the responibility for said quote, but it's still okay for you to slander. Which is what it is - slandering. Completely basesless statements followed by awful non sequiturs. It annoys me. That's why I respond. You'll also notice how quickly you point the 'employee!!!' finger my way. Can't I just honestly find your reasoning incredibly flawed and your post incredibly stupid?

[Sarfux]

The discussion about this has gone on way too far and long.