Time to brainstorm some questions

[cashogy_reborn]

Hey all, its Commando's turn (finally!) for Class rep questions next Friday, 3/28. I figured we should brainstorm some ideas as a community now so that I have time to prepare the questions for the deadline. As a reminder, there are 3 questions: 1 PvE oriented question, 1 PvP oriented question, and 1 users choice. Here is where I am standing personally:

 

PvE: I got nothing, plz halp

 

PvP: 2.7 is bringing a ton of QoL changes for Gunnery, and not so much Assault. I am going to be asking about the general lack of utility that Assault has, and whether or not we can see some added (Im going to likely lobby for a ranged root here). Assault also has some issues with no protection against Cleanse, so I will be asking about the possibility of some kind of DoT protection, as well as the stealth ICD on ranged-proc'ing Plasma Cell's DoT.

 

Free choice: I would like to ask about getting a base-line disengage, similar to what Sniper has. I think it would round out our utility quite nicely, and it is something that Ive seen suggested by some of the best Merc/Mandos in the game.

[cs_zoltan]

First and foremost numerical ammo counter

 

As for PVE, some suggestions:

 

Combat medic's ammo management: A skilled player can manage ammo well and it adds a flavour/skill floor to the spec so i wouldn't ask a straight out cost reduction on abilities or such, but when things don't go our way (dead second healer, dead tank, stupid dps standing in aoe) we have only two 2min cooldown to bring us back to the game while smugglers have the same cd + diagnostic scan and sages have noble sacrifice spam.

Ammo regen from Hammershots during Supercharge cell would be a nice tool to deal with those situations. We would have to chose between burst healing under supercharge or get our ammo back so it shouldn't be OP, I hope.

 

Gunnery's damage: Even with the 2.6 slinger nerf and the 2.7 gunnery buff (and TK buff) gunnery will still be behind the other 2 ranged burst spec SS and TK. SS got it's AoE nerfed so it's position as no.1 range burst spec is warranted but Gunnery should be as good as TK and even 2.7 PTS Gunnery has lower damage than TK pre2.7 buff (based on odawgg's PTS parsing).

 

Assault's utility: Gunnery has armor reduction, both has offheal and cleanse, but what does Assault brings other than (very) high damage? Nothing that others can't. Slingers have armor reduction and cleanse (off-GCD to make it better), Sages off-heal and cleanse (and mechanic cheeser barrier). If/when Assault gets nerfed to the other range sustained spec's level why would anyone want an Assault Mando over a DF slinger?

 

TBH Healing in PVE is pretty strong atm so we could/should go with a dps/utility question.

Edited March 17, 2014 by cs_zoltan

[KeyboardNinja]

Some PvE ideas…

 

Merc Pyro is substantially ahead of Commando Assault for several faction specific reasons right now, all of them tracing back to the off hand hits. The most obvious reason is the higher effective proc rate on CGC vs Plasma Cell, since the off hand is capable of procing the cylinder on any off hand hit (just as a main hand hit can). This has a secondary, and very substantial, effect of making the Merc Rail Shot substantially more powerful than the Commando High Impact Bolt. Mercs have essentially 100% uptime on CGC, which means that Rail Shot is guaranteed to refresh it, and the off-hand hit will also provide a guaranteed refresh (remember, CGC/Plasma Cell ticks upon application, so that's a lot of extra damage). Thus, Mercs get a nearly guaranteed double refresh, while Commandos often don't even get the refresh at all since their Plasma Cell uptime is lower, and they clearly never get the double refresh. Finally, and this is still somewhat unproven, off hand hits from Power Shot and Unload appear to count towards the proc rate on Rail Shot, meaning that Mercs have a 45% higher chance to proc Rail Shot than Commandos have to proc High Impact Bolt. It sounds stupid, but these disparities add up to give Empire-side progression groups using Mercs a much higher DPS ceiling than their Republic mirrors (I think Marisi's last testing between his commando and merc showed a roughly 4.8% DPS disparity). This means that enrage timers and general DPS checks in the new nightmare modes will be substantially easier for Empire guilds.

 

Commando Healers are in a surprisingly good place right now for PvE. Ammo is punishing, but I think that's a good thing. It is hard to deny though that the other healers have it a lot easier. Scoundrels get a 20% higher base regen (6 vs 5 energy per second), a slightly deeper energy pool, and energy return on their channeled free heal. I really don't want ammo to be as easy-mode as scoundrels, but it does chafe sometimes. The larger problem I think is the fact that Trauma Probe doesn't stack between healers anymore. This seems like a good idea on paper, but it means that groups running double Commando healers are punished far more than any other doubled healer pairing. Trauma Probe accounts for almost 35% of a Commando's effective healing, and the fact that they don't stack means that an 8 man group running two Commandos is missing 35% of one of their two healers at all times. It would be nice to see a more moderate solution here. Stacking wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, but having a second commando apply TP could conceivably just double the charge count of an existing TP. Not sure.

 

Even with the changes to Gunnery coming in 2.7, the ceiling is still far below Assault and really all of the sustained DPS specs outside of Vanguards and Shadows. Is this intentional? Gunnery does have awe-inspiring burst when all of its cooldowns are up, but there are classes with much higher burst and better sustain than even post-2.7 Gunnery (e.g. Scrapper Scoundrels, Combat Sentinels, etc).

 

And yeah, numerical ammo counter. I personally just eyeball everything (even on my classes that can display a numerical counter), but my guild's highest parsing commando never stops complaining about this point. :-)

Edited March 17, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[stockwizzle]

in the pts the slinger/snipers got a buff to dodge which basically made them invincible for 3 sec(5 sec with talent/set bonus) but that was taken away and the devs said that those classes were missing a distinct emergency survive button like vanish or undying rage or force barrier... it comes to my attention that commandos do not really have anything of the same that they are talking about and would like to ask them about that

[KeyboardNinja]

in the pts the slinger/snipers got a buff to dodge which basically made them invincible for 3 sec(5 sec with talent/set bonus) but that was taken away and the devs said that those classes were missing a distinct emergency survive button like vanish or undying rage or force barrier... it comes to my attention that commandos do not really have anything of the same that they are talking about and would like to ask them about that

 

Adrenaline Rush. Correctly used, it's better than Guarded by the Force.

[stockwizzle]

Adrenaline Rush. Correctly used, it's better than Guarded by the Force.

 

it can easily be burst thru... only thing it saves us from is dots... i would not consider that as a emergency survive button in fact i tend to have to use other defensive abilities in conjunction with it

[TACeMossie]

in the pts the slinger/snipers got a buff to dodge which basically made them invincible for 3 sec(5 sec with talent/set bonus) but that was taken away and the devs said that those classes were missing a distinct emergency survive button like vanish or undying rage or force barrier... it comes to my attention that commandos do not really have anything of the same that they are talking about and would like to ask them about that

 

I believe with troopers in general this is supposed to be adrenaline rush, though I don't really feel its immortality effect unless im on my Vanguard in assault spec... And then It is obscenely overpowered (e.g. burn phase of the dread masters = 24* second cooldown, 8 of which you are immortal and at a minimum of 35%)

 

Though that could be a good point for assault mandos - why is their skill in the exact same spot so much worse?

 

*Had a shower and realised my mistake, its 24 Cooldowns aka 36 seconds

Edited March 17, 2014 by TACeMossie

[AMightyKnight]

Some PvE ideas…

 

Merc Pyro is substantially ahead of Commando Assault for several faction specific reasons right now, all of them tracing back to the off hand hits. The most obvious reason is the higher effective proc rate on CGC vs Plasma Cell, since the off hand is capable of procing [...] This means that enrage timers and general DPS checks in the new nightmare modes will be substantially easier for Empire guilds.

Pretty much this. And the numerical ammo display of course.

 

Id really like to hear the devs take on performance disparity between fractions and obvious disadvantages. Maybe we can use it as the wildcard question and mix the disnengage ability into the PvP more uitility question.

 

Strictly PvE, as others have said, Gunnery still lacks sustained dps after 2.7. Removing the rng factor was a great qol impromvement but didnt do much for dps (which i believe was intended). We should ask them whether or not they think that amoo managment is still too tight aftert 2.7 or if we are supposed to to use unattractive base attack Hammershots in our rotations.

I have the feeling the devs view this spec as much stronger as it acutally is. Especially with no ammo counter.

[mandoforlife]

Hey all, its Commando's turn (finally!) for Class rep questions next Friday, 3/28. I figured we should brainstorm some ideas as a community now so that I have time to prepare the questions for the deadline. As a reminder, there are 3 questions: 1 PvE oriented question, 1 PvP oriented question, and 1 users choice. Here is where I am standing personally:

 

PvE: I got nothing, plz halp

 

PvP: 2.7 is bringing a ton of QoL changes for Gunnery, and not so much Assault. I am going to be asking about the general lack of utility that Assault has, and whether or not we can see some added (Im going to likely lobby for a ranged root here). Assault also has some issues with no protection against Cleanse, so I will be asking about the possibility of some kind of DoT protection, as well as the stealth ICD on ranged-proc'ing Plasma Cell's DoT.

 

Free choice: I would like to ask about getting a base-line disengage, similar to what Sniper has. I think it would round out our utility quite nicely, and it is something that Ive seen suggested by some of the best Merc/Mandos in the game.

 

I don't really PvE, so unfortunately I cannot help you out with that one. But when it comes to the PvP question, it sounds pretty damn good so far. I know you had read one of my posts on the PvP forums analyzing the issues with Mando/Merc in arenas, and a ranged root and cleanse-protection for Pyro was my main concern.

 

As for the choice question, I like it. I like it a lot. A disengage has been talked about by players in the class forums for over a year now I believe, and it's stayed a topic that long for a reason. It'd be perfect to get us out of dodge when all the melee on the enemy team jump us at the start of an arena. Hopefully BW will look at the question and try and picture how it might work out in-game, and not brush it off.

 

Overall, very good ideas so far Cash. I'm excited to see what the questions turn out to be once they're all rounded out, and when we get to hear what the devs have to say.

[Kinslayer]

Merc Pyro is substantially ahead of Commando Assault for several faction specific reasons right now, all of them tracing back to the off hand hits. The most obvious reason is the higher effective proc rate on CGC vs Plasma Cell, since the off hand is capable of procing the cylinder on any off hand hit (just as a main hand hit can). This has a secondary, and very substantial, effect of making the Merc Rail Shot substantially more powerful than the Commando High Impact Bolt. Mercs have essentially 100% uptime on CGC, which means that Rail Shot is guaranteed to refresh it, and the off-hand hit will also provide a guaranteed refresh (remember, CGC/Plasma Cell ticks upon application, so that's a lot of extra damage). Thus, Mercs get a nearly guaranteed double refresh, while Commandos often don't even get the refresh at all since their Plasma Cell uptime is lower, and they clearly never get the double refresh. Finally, and this is still somewhat unproven, off hand hits from Power Shot and Unload appear to count towards the proc rate on Rail Shot, meaning that Mercs have a 45% higher chance to proc Rail Shot than Commandos have to proc High Impact Bolt. It sounds stupid, but these disparities add up to give Empire-side progression groups using Mercs a much higher DPS ceiling than their Republic mirrors (I think Marisi's last testing between his commando and merc showed a roughly 4.8% DPS disparity). This means that enrage timers and general DPS checks in the new nightmare modes will be substantially easier for Empire guilds.

 

First up, her testing. The DPS difference between my best Merc and Mando parses is about 3.6% but like I say every time, the Mando is not BiS and also is on a server where I used to have 250-300ms ping compared to 170-190ms on the server my Merc is on. I've since moved to Canada so both server's pings are no longer a concern but I haven't parsed much since moving. The gear difference between the two is a net difference of 40 power but I'm not sure how much that would've boosted my Mando's parse.

 

The Merc OH definitely does create a fairly substantial difference particularly when it comes to RS (which itself makes no sense since the ability is fired from your all-purpose gauntlet, not the pistols...) and the CGC but I've never thought that proccing RS reliably on my Merc was easier than the Mando. If anything I experience less failed procs on my Mando although in both cases they are quite rare.

 

As far as fixing/adding things, there are 2 things I would like to see for now: the aforementioned ammo counter and also upon accepting a revive/battle rez, the ammo to be correctly to be set to 50 instead of 6 as spamming auto attacks until you get your ammo back isn't particularly fun.

[KeyboardNinja]

First up, her testing. The DPS difference between my best Merc and Mando parses is about 3.6% but like I say every time, the Mando is not BiS and also is on a server where I used to have 250-300ms ping compared to 170-190ms on the server my Merc is on. I've since moved to Canada so both server's pings are no longer a concern but I haven't parsed much since moving. The gear difference between the two is a net difference of 40 power but I'm not sure how much that would've boosted my Mando's parse.

 

40 power would be noticeable, but not as much as 3.6%. I think it would probably be worth 10-15 DPS at the most. The latency is more interesting, but I'm of the opinion at present that because of how Pyro works, it probably doesn't make as much of a difference as one would think. Rapid Venting gives a 2% alacrity boost that is unavoidable, and the rotation is already gated by a 6 second ICD. The 2% boost gives 120 ms of cushion over the course of that ICD, which covers 4 GCDs. Thus, as long as your ability action queue is no more than 30 ms shorter than your server latency, you should still be able to just make the ICD window exactly on schedule. As long as you don't have packet drops and other forms of serious connection degradation, the results should be nearly the same.

 

In other words, I think if you had 250-300ms latency on the server where Marisi is sitting, you would still be able to parse just as high as long as your action queue is set to 0.5 seconds or higher. Clearly this isn't true for all DPS specs (Combat/Carnage is a pretty notable counter-example), but because of how the rotation is a complete slave to the ICD, I think the reasoning is valid.

 

Also, I hadn't seen the latest parse from your commando. 3.6% disparity is somewhat more encouraging, but it still shouldn't be anywhere near that much.

 

The Merc OH definitely does create a fairly substantial difference particularly when it comes to RS (which itself makes no sense since the ability is fired from your all-purpose gauntlet, not the pistols...) and the CGC but I've never thought that proccing RS reliably on my Merc was easier than the Mando. If anything I experience less failed procs on my Mando although in both cases they are quite rare.

 

I cry every time I use Full Auto > Charged Bolts and I don't get the proc. Happens at least once per fight, and sometimes twice.

[cs_zoltan]

I'm not sure the Pyro/Assault disparity worth to be mentioned, even if they acknowledge it and do something about it they'd just nerf Pyro. What good that would do to Mandos?

[stockwizzle]

I'm not sure the Pyro/Assault disparity worth to be mentioned, even if they acknowledge it and do something about it they'd just nerf Pyro. What good that would do to Mandos?

 

true especially since everyone already thinks that pyro is the best dps in pve

[KeyboardNinja]

I'm not sure the Pyro/Assault disparity worth to be mentioned, even if they acknowledge it and do something about it they'd just nerf Pyro. What good that would do to Mandos?

 

That feeling of justice and vindication at our Merc brethren getting their comeuppance.

[cashogy_reborn]

How much of a difference is there beteween Pyro vs Assault?

[Kinslayer]

I cry every time I use Full Auto > Charged Bolts and I don't get the proc. Happens at least once per fight, and sometimes twice.

 

That's weird. I just hopped on to my Mando and did a parse - http://www.torparse.com/a/622197 where all I did was IR CB CB HIB then FA CB HIB. I didn't get an IA proc on 2 of the 2x CB combos but the FA CB one worked every time and from what I can recall this is generally the case for me. If the proc fails it's on the 2x CB combo.

[KeyboardNinja]

That's weird. I just hopped on to my Mando and did a parse - http://www.torparse.com/a/622197 where all I did was IR CB CB HIB then FA CB HIB. I didn't get an IA proc on 2 of the 2x CB combos but the FA CB one worked every time and from what I can recall this is generally the case for me. If the proc fails it's on the 2x CB combo.

 

Usually yes. It's entirely possible that the alacrity is causing me to simply beat the ICD, but given that I see this even on bosses, I'm not sure that this fully explains it.

 

As far as we know, the proc chance is cumulative leading up to the ICD. If that is indeed the case, then FA > CB has a precisely 86.25% proc chance, while CB > CB has a 69.75% proc chance. If the off hand proc theory is accurate, then Unload > Power Shot has a 90.95% proc chance, while Power Shot > Power Shot has a 86.90% chance.

 

How much of a difference is there beteween Pyro vs Assault?

 

According to Marisi, roughly 3.6% (cheat that down a bit, since his commando isn't quite as well geared as his Merc).

Edited March 18, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Gyronamics]

Usually yes. It's entirely possible that the alacrity is causing me to simply beat the ICD, but given that I see this even on bosses, I'm not sure that this fully explains it.

 

As far as we know, the proc chance is cumulative leading up to the ICD. If that is indeed the case, then FA > CB has a precisely 86.25% proc chance, while CB > CB has a 69.75% proc chance. If the off hand proc theory is accurate, then Unload > Power Shot has a 90.95% proc chance, while Power Shot > Power Shot has a 86.90% chance.

 

According to Marisi, roughly 3.6% (cheat that down a bit, since his commando isn't quite as well geared as his Merc).

 

I don't know where this theory comes from at all, someone once said it was cumulative as a random guess and it got repeated and repeated.

 

It is flat out guaranteed in my book, no cumulative anything. Two uses of the two proc abilities and it procs if the window is open and the CD has not been totally run out.

 

The only things in my mind which cause failed procs:

 

#1 first proc truly is a dice roll

#2 clipping FA

#3 RNG from alacrity/lag which I might add affects the instant attacks of VG more than the casts of Commando

 

I could go and do a controlled parse right now in a low traffic area and not lose a proc.

 

 

What I am doing right now is examining the merc system because there is a mechanic from the offhand hits which causes a lot more damage every use.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Gyronamics

[ArchangelLBC]

I'm kind of torn. I think PVE healing is good for us (outside the stacking issues), and my preferred spec is gunnery and seeing that so low on the totem pole is distressing.......and yet the disparity issues in Pyro vs Assault is really distressing. Yet CZ is right. What they would do is nerf Pyro (offhand hits can no longer apply the DoT probably). As well, even if they buffed us (they wouldn't) the fact is these questions are supposed to be for both ACs (Merc and Mando) and that would be a definite commando only question......and yet again the disparity is there and it shouldn't be and while we're at it I want my damn ammo counter and to get 50 ammo back on a Rez. Those things just irk me incredibly.

[cashogy_reborn]

Is the difference between Pyro and Assault going to prevent a Commando from contributing enough to down content in a situation where a Merc still would?

 

And I know that Gunny is parsing lower than Assault, but where does it compare to all classes?

[KeyboardNinja]

Is the difference between Pyro and Assault going to prevent a Commando from contributing enough to down content in a situation where a Merc still would?

 

Depends. It's looking like Draxus Nightmare could be a DPS check to rival pre-pre-nerf Nightmare Dread Guard. If that is indeed the case, then yes, the difference between Pyro and Assault will be noticeable and may cause some Republic side raid groups to struggle more with the fight where identically-composed Empire groups will get a clear.

 

To be clear, Assault commandos are still parsing very competitively. The Rep-side ranged DPS classes, outside of Gunnery and Sab, are extremely well balanced in 2.7. All of them are parsing within a few tenths of a percentage point. It's really just Pyro that is way above and beyond, pushing out numbers beyond what even Concealment can manage.

 

And I know that Gunny is parsing lower than Assault, but where does it compare to all classes?

 

Pre-2.7, Gunnery is parsing lower than every other DPS spec in the game, including shadows and vanguards. On a really lucky parse, Pizza was able to break into the mid-3.5s, but that's unbelievably lucky. On a more average day, 3.3k is considered a very strong showing for the spec in BiS gear.

 

Post-2.7, things are up a lot, with the formerly super-lucky best parses now being a lot more achievable. However, 3.5k still isn't all that great. With the buff to both Sage DPS specs, Gunnery will still rank as the lowest parsing ranged DPS spec aside from roll-less Saboteur, and among the lowest parsing DPS specs across the board (it will edge out vanguards and shadows by a very small margin). That's not exactly encouraging.

Edited March 18, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[cashogy_reborn]

Ok, so 3.5k DPS is the low end, and 4k is the high end. What kind of changes would you suggest to increase Gunny's DPS output t be competitive with Assault?

 

What if there was something to increase crit rate of Full Auto and/or Demo Round?

Edited March 19, 2014 by cashogy_reborn

[Kinslayer]

Ok, so 3.5k DPS is the low end, and 4k is the high end. What kind of changes would you suggest to increase Gunny's DPS output t be competitive with Assault?

 

What if there was something to increase crit rate of Full Auto and/or Demo Round?

 

If Demo Round auto-critted the target if the Gravity Vortex debuff was present, it would certainly help close the gap but it's not going to add 500 DPS. But then this would most likely cause PvP imbalance if you had a guaranteed 10k+ hit every 15 seconds with no real setup.

[Kinslayer]

I don't know where this theory comes from at all, someone once said it was cumulative as a random guess and it got repeated and repeated.

 

It is flat out guaranteed in my book, no cumulative anything. Two uses of the two proc abilities and it procs if the window is open and the CD has not been totally run out.

 

12:18:23.807 Mari activates High Impact Bolt.
12:18:23.807 Mari loses Ionic Accelerator.
12:18:23.987 Mari gains 8 energy.
12:18:25.356 Mari activates Incendiary Round.
12:18:25.356 Mari spends 16 energy.
12:18:26.848 Mari activates Charged Bolts.
12:18:28.354 Mari spends 16 energy.
12:18:28.356 Mari activates Charged Bolts.
12:18:29.849 Mari spends 16 energy.
12:18:30.743 Mari activates Charged Bolts.
12:18:32.264 Mari spends 16 energy.
12:18:32.264 Mari gains Ionic Accelerator.

 

So what do you make of this? 2 Charged Bolts and more than 6 seconds had passed after IA was used and no proc.

[Sowwy]

My concerns and experience are exclusive to combat medics in pvp.

 

Ammo regeneration is acceptable as long as we're in medium or high levels, I think the rate ammo regenerates at low level is too punitive however and it is the cornerstone of ammo issues.

 

Any talk of boosting that?

 

Also, will they be addressing interrupt vulnerability in arenas?

 

 

- Jolly Goodshow

- POT5, Harbinger

Edited March 19, 2014 by Sowwy