Frostvein Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Meters are coming. I am eternally glad. Adapt or quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seismax Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Nor have I... which is why I don't understand the usefulness of the damage meters. Even the meters that let you parse and flag a ton of activity. Raids usually wipe because some atypical event happens and someone doesn't change tactics fast enough. The guys that bother me even worse are the ones that use the meters not to ensure success, but to try to get the time down. It usually takes them eight YEARS to organize people and tell them what to do EXACTLY before even starting combat. Meters reduce the game to "press this button, then this one, wait this long, press this button". Is that fun?! NO! Fun is having a wandering mob that shouldn't have respawned sneak up during the boss encounter and somehow not only surviving but *not* getting wiped. Meters are *NOT* fun. Meters reduce the game to a huge human macro. Bioware! If you introduce combat parsing and meters, make encounters dynamic enough that they do *NOT* repeat on a regular schedule! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Better hope they don't have any sort of enrage mechanic and just let you toss bodies at the boss then. Games like that can usually squeak by without meters, corpse run go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigtimm Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 better question, do people want a meter that purely shows damage or healing done or do they want a parseable <sp> combat log? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 LOL What problems? Seems to me like you're the one with problems with what I said. I merely stated that I never had any need for mods to do well in an mmo, and that includes damage meters. I'm sorry if that makes you and others like you feel insecure. *shrug* But really, that's your own fault, not mine. Nope, i was simply amused at how random your post was since we weren't talking about other addons except the damage meter one. And i can easily tell how "well you did" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 And that skill can't be measured with a meter. Checkmate! I WIN! Meters are just calculated statistics. I can't think of an MVP that hasn't won in pro sports that didn't have great stats that show their skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythoris Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Nope, i was simply amused at how random your post was since we weren't talking about other addons except the damage meter one. And i can easily tell how "well you did" I'm amused at how obviously angry you became at my statement at not needing mods when you are, most obviously, one of the people who used mods as your crutch and couldn't wipe your butt without them. Also, I can tell how "well" you did, seeing as how you needed an electronic hand-holder. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolu Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Nor have I... which is why I don't understand the usefulness of the damage meters. Even the meters that let you parse and flag a ton of activity. Raids usually wipe because some atypical event happens and someone doesn't change tactics fast enough. The guys that bother me even worse are the ones that use the meters not to ensure success, but to try to get the time down. It usually takes them eight YEARS to organize people and tell them what to do EXACTLY before even starting combat. Meters reduce the game to "press this button, then this one, wait this long, press this button". Is that fun?! NO! Fun is having a wandering mob that shouldn't have respawned sneak up during the boss encounter and somehow not only surviving but *not* getting wiped. Meters are *NOT* fun. Meters reduce the game to a huge human macro. Bioware! If you introduce combat parsing and meters, make encounters dynamic enough that they do *NOT* repeat on a regular schedule! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! There are plenty of encounters that do not repeat on a consistent schedule already in games that provide support for damage meters and combat logs. A wandering mob that shouldn't have respawned entering your encounter is a bug... not a feature. I'm just not sure what to make of your post, you just keep contradicting yourself, you don't wipe to lack of damage ever? How did you know that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiragrim Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 What is this judging harshly? I don't think I've done anything that could be considered judging harshly, unless asking a player to improve his contributions is considered a harsh judgement. But really, all that is doing is asking that player to live up to the commitment he made when he said he wanted to contribute to the group effort. And *obviously* everyone is like you? NOPE. When meters do get introduced, and they will, the evil scum and villainy will come out. A dragon raid board will be set up, and the only way to get on the schedule will be as a member of an uber-guild who won't except you unless you have certain stats that can only be attained if you had been able to go on the raid and eventually get that equipment. Yep... it happened. And still does. Don't anyone say it doesn't. Even if you would never do that. Good for you. Other players are not so "nice". Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! PS... Still not to 99 pages? Dang. This is taking to long. Time to go play since I'm finally home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) I'm amused at how obviously angry you became at my statement at not needing mods when you are, most obviously, one of the people who used mods as your crutch and couldn't wipe your butt without them. Also, I can tell how "well" you did, seeing as how you needed an electronic hand-holder. lol Please do tell how a damage meter holds your hand and how you can use it as a crutch. And yeah i'm so angry can't you feel it i'll roll my eyes a bit more so you can Funny guy you Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolu Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 better question, do people want a meter that purely shows damage or healing done or do they want a parseable <sp> combat log? I want a parseable log. A flat damage meter bar chart that shows nothing but current damage is useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murdaralph Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 How many more threads about meters before you think they unlock for addons or just implement their own meter !!lol lets hear the bets 150 threads!! imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythoris Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Please do tell how a damage meter holds your hand and how you can use them as a crutch. And yeah i'm so angry can't you feel it i'll roll my eyes a bit more so you can That's th thing, I was talking about mods in general, and that of course includes damage meters. Edited December 24, 2011 by Sireene rude/uninviting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valadain Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 A very complicated game of simon says is what we are playing. I'm sorry but that's what this style of game is. You can "hide" it, if you want, but someone will figure it out. Your third paragraph contradicts the second. The challenge is timing a stun right now because... simon said stun right now. The challenge in standing on this rock to avoid the fire because... simon said I'm casting fire over here right now. Under manning a raid or instance doesn't have much to do with a combat log. That's artificially increasing the challenge for yourself for no reason. While I'm not saying you didn't have fun doing that, it really makes no difference if you have a damage meter or not to undertake that activity. There isn't an annoying sound played and a big message on my screen telling me to push the button. Yes, at heart the game is going to be simon says to a point. That is the limitation of technology. How you hide it makes all the difference. It is the difference between a fun game and a boring game. If math is what floats your boat, there are much more lucrative applications. I didn't say it changed the nature or the fundamental code of the game, it changes the focus of the game. I'd rather be focused on what Bioware has to show me than what an add-on splats to my screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Nor have I... which is why I don't understand the usefulness of the damage meters. Even the meters that let you parse and flag a ton of activity. Raids usually wipe because some atypical event happens and someone doesn't change tactics fast enough. The guys that bother me even worse are the ones that use the meters not to ensure success, but to try to get the time down. It usually takes them eight YEARS to organize people and tell them what to do EXACTLY before even starting combat. Meters reduce the game to "press this button, then this one, wait this long, press this button". Is that fun?! NO! Fun is having a wandering mob that shouldn't have respawned sneak up during the boss encounter and somehow not only surviving but *not* getting wiped. Meters are *NOT* fun. Meters reduce the game to a huge human macro. Bioware! If you introduce combat parsing and meters, make encounters dynamic enough that they do *NOT* repeat on a regular schedule! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! I think you're confusing Meters with Raid Timers. Raid Timers and mods that display things in ways that make boss mechanics simpler are the ones that trivial a boss fight. Meters simply let players perform optimally. They don't tell you to press this button at this time... they are a running gauge of your speed. I guarantee the guy/gal with the fastest average lap time in a race wins the race. How he/she got there is something they have to work at and train at. And in a raid the race is a relay... we need to know we lost the race because one person was 3 times as worse as everyone else. Why do you keep denying this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiragrim Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 There are plenty of encounters that do not repeat on a consistent schedule already in games that provide support for damage meters and combat logs. A wandering mob that shouldn't have respawned entering your encounter is a bug... not a feature. I'm just not sure what to make of your post, you just keep contradicting yourself, you don't wipe to lack of damage ever? How did you know that? Because I was top meter and really didn't agree with what the guild leader and assigned raid leaders were doing. I even turned down upgrades so that friends might get better equipment. Sometimes it worked. Even so, I felt victimized by a guild merger I didn't want and meters that divided the community I was in. Really not that hard to understand. I am conflicted because I would like to know my own performance, but considering the evil dark uses meters can be put to will fight against them and stay on the light side of the force... That was funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) That's th thing, I was talking about mods in general, and that of course includes damage meters. And yes, u mad bro. I can taste your butthurt tears, and they're delicious. That's cool. But considering i was setting records on WoL most of the time while also being the dps melee officer in a top 50 guild imagine how affected i am by your comments Every dps in a top guild used the damage meters, all the time. You still didn't answer how damage meters hold your hand mate (because you can't) but that's another story. Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolu Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 There isn't an annoying sound played and a big message on my screen telling me to push the button. Yes, at heart the game is going to be simon says to a point. That is the limitation of technology. How you hide it makes all the difference. It is the difference between a fun game and a boring game. If math is what floats your boat, there are much more lucrative applications. I didn't say it changed the nature or the fundamental code of the game, it changes the focus of the game. I'd rather be focused on what Bioware has to show me than what an add-on splats to my screen. You aren't talking about a damage meter or combat log anymore, you are talking about addon's like deadly boss mods, or G.T.F.O. etc... the fact that you can use a combat log to generate a mod that does these sorts of things and being able to use them is up to bioware. Just like the inclusion of any mods. Dev's can break mods they don't want used. A good example of this was WoW breaking a mod that drew colored circles on the ground to show where players should and shouldn't be in Wrath of the Lich King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaluria Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Was i talking about the panda joke of an expansion? Nope. I was talking about existing WoW content and the one's that been raidable until now and it's all been harder than EQ. You don't want to admit that, which is also fine, but you have to accept you saying it ain't true won't suddenly make you right. dude you are so off, WoW was billed as casual for casual players. You really have no clue about EQ raiding, and didn't you say you TALKED to guildies who TOLD you WoW was harder to raid in. Seriously, all you are doing is leading the bully pack. I wouldn't group with you if you were the only other person on a server with me, with your attitude and rude responses. You may think you are cool with your snarky responses but I seriously think the laugh may be on you. just sayin...if you can't figure out who is screwing up a raid by parsers after its over then I understand why you need the CRUTCH of having a meter running while the encounter is going on. Whoever said this will divide the community is right, because the same stupity that WoW had is coming over here with wanting 3rd party add ons. All this dude wants is a way to point a finger at someone for doing something wrong. When these programs can actually account for every human failing then we might as well just turn on the comp, press one button and walk away and let the computer play for us. Where is the challenge in having a program tell us every move that a boss will make before hand and beating it? Oh thats right you fail first then get the numbers to tell you everything so you can put it on farm and come to the forums and cry to the developers that you need harder/more content for better rewards so that the gap between players that have a life outside of the game can't catch up to you so you can walk around the virtual world in flashy pixels and wave the epeen. While you eat up your trust fund/school money and lose your job because you missed work to kill a boss. I am exaggerating, but then so are you. It happens, I guess..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiragrim Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I think you're confusing Meters with Raid Timers. Raid Timers and mods that display things in ways that make boss mechanics simpler are the ones that trivial a boss fight. Meters simply let players perform optimally. They don't tell you to press this button at this time... they are a running gauge of your speed. I guarantee the guy/gal with the fastest average lap time in a race wins the race. How he/she got there is something they have to work at and train at. And in a raid the race is a relay... we need to know we lost the race because one person was 3 times as worse as everyone else. Why do you keep denying this? I'm not denying it at all, which is why some think I am contradicting myself. It isn't the usefulness at a personal level that I am against meters (and I do know the difference). It is the changes to the game's community that happens in the face of meters (and the subsequent raid timers and equipment ratings) that I am against. And like I shall battle the forces of evil (or good), I shall forever battle against the evil scum and villainy that is damage meters! LONG LIVE METERLESSNESS! PS... Come on guys you can make 99 pages before the night is over! I know it! Dang it... I was going to go play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) dude you are so off, WoW was billed as casual for casual players. You really have no clue about EQ raiding, and didn't you say you TALKED to guildies who TOLD you WoW was harder to raid in. Seriously, all you are doing is leading the bully pack. I wouldn't group with you if you were the only other person on a server with me, with your attitude and rude responses. You may think you are cool with your snarky responses but I seriously think the laugh may be on you. just sayin...if you can't figure out who is screwing up a raid by parsers after its over then I understand why you need the CRUTCH of having a meter running while the encounter is going on. Whoever said this will divide the community is right, because the same stupity that WoW had is coming over here with wanting 3rd party add ons. All this dude wants is a way to point a finger at someone for doing something wrong. When these programs can actually account for every human failing then we might as well just turn on the comp, press one button and walk away and let the computer play for us. Where is the challenge in having a program tell us every move that a boss will make before hand and beating it? Oh thats right you fail first then get the numbers to tell you everything so you can put it on farm and come to the forums and cry to the developers that you need harder/more content for better rewards so that the gap between players that have a life outside of the game can't catch up to you so you can walk around the virtual world in flashy pixels and wave the epeen. While you eat up your trust fund/school money and lose your job because you missed work to kill a boss. I am exaggerating, but then so are you. It happens, I guess..... Still finding excuses i see. All is good. You can still play with people who think like you man, no worries. Why so insulting? Just don't expect us "WoW noobs" who depend on "meters" and "parsers" as crutches to play with you "EQ pros". Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 All this dude wants is a way to point a finger at someone for doing something wrong. No, I want challenging encounter design. Without meters, the Bioware Devlopers will be severely limited in encounter design and many boss mechanics will be easily open to exploitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolu Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 dude you are so off, WoW was billed as casual for casual players. You really have no clue about EQ raiding, and didn't you say you TALKED to guildies who TOLD you WoW was harder to raid in. Seriously, all you are doing is leading the bully pack. I wouldn't group with you if you were the only other person on a server with me, with your attitude and rude responses. You may think you are cool with your snarky responses but I seriously think the laugh may be on you. just sayin...if you can't figure out who is screwing up a raid by parsers after its over then I understand why you need the CRUTCH of having a meter running while the encounter is going on. Whoever said this will divide the community is right, because the same stupity that WoW had is coming over here with wanting 3rd party add ons. All this dude wants is a way to point a finger at someone for doing something wrong. When these programs can actually account for every human failing then we might as well just turn on the comp, press one button and walk away and let the computer play for us. Where is the challenge in having a program tell us every move that a boss will make before hand and beating it? Oh thats right you fail first then get the numbers to tell you everything so you can put it on farm and come to the forums and cry to the developers that you need harder/more content for better rewards so that the gap between players that have a life outside of the game can't catch up to you so you can walk around the virtual world in flashy pixels and wave the epeen. While you eat up your trust fund/school money and lose your job because you missed work to kill a boss. I am exaggerating, but then so are you. It happens, I guess..... World of warcraft isn't divided over use of mods or meters, they are used, its that simple. World of Warcraft has three difficulty levels of encounters now as well. The only problem the World of Warcraft community has is the same one that every online community has, which is anonymity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valadain Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Meters are coming. I am eternally glad. Adapt or quit. They probably are, which will be sad to see. It will be a disappointment to see another game fall to the endless cycle of class-balance warfare, eating up all the time that could be spent adding more depth and interest to the game. First the meters, then the "my class does 1% less DPS than another class and thus nobody will take me on a raid" posts. Then a balance patch. Then the subsequent "my class now has no purpose because I can't do 1% more damage than the class just fixed anymore" posts. Then another balance. A year or so later, a combat re-write that drives away some. Then more balance patches. Then a complete skill tree change for each class, resulting in no real increase in game enjoyment. Having worked in software development for many years, I can tell you that the number one killer of software companies is a failure to understand that the customer rarely knows what they actually need. If you always give them what they ask for, you will rarely end up pleasing them in the long term. You have to figure out how to collect what they actually need from the complete nonsense that they claim is necessary and deliver them things that actually make them happy, which is almost never what they directly asked for in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironix Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 THERE WILL BE COMBAT LOGS & SUBSEQUENT DAMAGE METERS Source: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/698619/Misc/SWTOR/fan_sum_02_qa_georg_zoeller.mp3 Interviewer: So we talk about analytics and what you guys do on the developer side. Players like to do their own analytics and how to improve their characters. What tools int he game help you do that? Will you be able to export a combat log or anything like that? Georg Zoeller: Not at this point, but it's something very high on our priority list Interviewer: What's the pro and con of having something like that in? What's your approach to players min-maxing? Georg Zoeller: I have no problem with players min-maxing. I'm min-maxing myself. We do have pretty good... the tooltips are pretty good. The information on the items I think is pretty good. We're right now lacking a bit is in the evaluating your performance or your group's performance. Umm what I can tell you is there's no conspiracy where we're like we're hiding this so people aren't discriminating against other players. If you want to, you know, run a very competitive operations group and you wanna improve, having this data is certainly interesting. Umm and we're not against it, it's just right now not in. Will it make it in for launch? We don't know at this point but it's very high priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolu Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 THERE WILL BE COMBAT LOGS & SUBSEQUENT DAMAGE METERS Source: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/698619/Misc/SWTOR/fan_sum_02_qa_georg_zoeller.mp3 Interviewer: So we talk about analytics and what you guys do on the developer side. Players like to do their own analytics and how to improve their characters. What tools int he game help you do that? Will you be able to export a combat log or anything like that? Georg Zoeller: Not at this point, but it's something very high on our priority list Interviewer: What's the pro and con of having something like that in? What's your approach to players min-maxing? Georg Zoeller: I have no problem with players min-maxing. I'm min-maxing myself. We do have pretty good... the tooltips are pretty good. The information on the items I think is pretty good. We're right now lacking a bit is in the evaluating your performance or your group's performance. Umm what I can tell you is there's no conspiracy where we're like we're hiding this so people aren't discriminating against other players. If you want to, you know, run a very competitive operations group and you wanna improve, having this data is certainly interesting. Umm and we're not against it, it's just right now not in. Will it make it in for launch? We don't know at this point but it's very high priority. There will be a combat log. Right. But there has not been confirmation that mods will be permitted, or what form they will be permitted to take. We've seen this linked a couple times now, I know the thread is long and stuff, but it doesn't hurt to read it, or at least skim it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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