My respec costs 36550 credits now

[Deferionus]

With a 100k respec cost I hope they soon either maximize the cost at about 30k or just give us the ability to respec.

 

Depending on who I am playing with at the time or what I am doing I would like to heal or DPS, and I am also the type that is very completionist, meaning I like to do everything on one account and rarely touch alts after leveling them to the level cap.

 

I am against LFG

I am against server transfers

I am against name changing

I am against cross server Warzones.

 

But I would like dual spec. The above (regardless of any argument anyone ever makes) do damage the community, but not having dual spec only inconveniences the player and the community looking to fill spots.

[Areoss]

I like to dps/PvP as a jug. But with friends I like to tank in PvE. Which I am swapping between to do what I want. I don't enjoy playing tank in PvP. Ofcourse it is viable but it isnt what I like to do. I enjoy Dps in PvP.

 

I'd like to swap between those 2 specs in my advance class. I don't want to go marauder, thats just stupid. Just the ability to swap between 2 specs in my advanced class.

 

It's getting very costly. I'd like it capped at something up to 20k or a dual spec brought in.

[Viareggio]

There is one mistake that Bioware has to avoid at all costs: Listening to fanboys. Fanboys, i.e. brainless robots who would defend the game no matter what, are behind the downfall of many promising MMOs. Look at Rift for instance, it is safely in the hands of its fanboys... the problem is that there is not enough of them to populate even 1 server.

 

Now TOR fanboys are saying that dual spec is not necessary. Bioware can listen to them and lose loads of subscriptions, or implement dual spec and improve this already great game.

 

The point being is that, listening to fanboys does not really matter, because whatever happens, they will always find a way to defend the game, even at the cost of contraddicting what they have said for months.

[WelbyWars]

Look at Rift for instance, it is safely in the hands of its fanboys... the problem is that there is not enough of them to populate even 1 server.

 

Now TOR fanboys are saying that dual spec is not necessary. Bioware can listen to them and lose loads of subscriptions, or implement dual spec and improve this already great game.

 

The point being is that, listening to fanboys does not really matter, because whatever happens, they will always find a way to defend the game, even at the cost of contraddicting what they have said for months.

 

 

Rift has the most dual,tripple repsec, mixing AC's.,.freedom I have seen( not counting GW). Wouldn't say it's a bad fanboy thing.

 

"Some" Tor fans are asking for this game to Not have it.

 

I never liked it,..I never liked instances either,..but that was a long time ago, when I had a crappy job and rented a basement with some classmates.

 

 

The important thing is. If the overall gameplay supports dual spec. Rift was made from the get go for it.

 

is SWTOR? Will it trivialize their current gameplay? Decrease the already(imho) short life span?

 

Just as many 'fans' are here asking for it as not, imho.

 

my 2 credits.

[Psykhe]

The important thing is. If the overall gameplay supports dual spec. Rift was made from the get go for it.

 

is SWTOR? Will it trivialize their current gameplay? Decrease the already(imho) short life span?

 

How exactly "supports" the gameplay of Rift dual spec?

 

I do not really see it, Dual spec is nothing which has to (or can) be "supported". Its the same thing as stuff like mounts or a good interface.

 

Sure,

if you have no mounts and as result need to walk for ages

or

need to klick 5 times for a task which could be done in 1 click and as result spend a lot of time clicking through windows

or

have no dual spec and as result have to farm for hours for money when you want to respec:

 

in all of these cases you have a - in theory - higher life span of a game because people need to spend more time in the game.

 

However thats only in theory because the extra time spent is bland and boring and will make the game overall worse, resulting in more people quitting.

 

The only games which do not "support" dual spec because they are so thin on content that they need to add as many bland repetative grinds as possible to stretch it are only those of one paticular category. They are called "bad games".

Edited December 28, 2011 by Psykhe

[VaJJ]

A week from the first respec is when your timer will reset... Wait a damn week and stop changing roles so damn much

[WelbyWars]

in all of these cases you have a - in theory - higher life span of a game because people need to spend more time in the game.

 

However thats only in theory because the extra time spent is bland and boring and will make the game overall worse, resulting in more people quitting.

 

The only games which do not "support" dual spec because they are so thin on content that they need to add as many bland repetative grinds as possible to stretch it are only those of one paticular category. They are called "bad games".

 

Exactly,

And that is probably near the top of the list of any MMO company. Retention. Keep players playing. I really liked Rift's Soul system, but it also made for dead newb zones as no one needed to reRoll really.

 

I can't think of any MMO that didn't have a 'grind'. It's almost a personal illusion. I ground 300 orcs for this title,..that's grindy. Some games, like DC online, I played through with no grind at all, if there was one,..I didn't do it,..my choice, and move to a new game.

 

EQ /Eve Online has an insane grind but I wouldn't call it a bad game.

 

 

I do not really see it, Dual spec is nothing which has to (or can) be "supported". Its the same thing as stuff like mounts or a good interface.

 

sure it can be supported.

 

example of Not supported:

 

Gameplay built on unique classes tied to class questlines and lore.

Usually Group loot tables distribute based on class to evenly reward players.(need/greed)

PvP balanced based on not being able to switch on the fly.

 

a percentage of players DO like feeling unique in their investment and virtual life choices.

 

Maybe I want to play DPS. But players may flame you for not switching to healing/tanking since they KNOW you can.

 

example of supported:

 

Gameplay built on hybrids. Questlines that are not class specific and lore is not based on contradicting character traits( i'e' Giving Chewbacca a Lighting spec).

 

Mobs and encounters are not built around trinity, but instead built around dynamic strategy, with multiple avenues of success. No one is forced to be a pure anything.

 

Content built around knowing players have the ability to swap spec. Adjusting mobs accordingly.

 

a percentage of players Do like having options for the sake of convenience and game play.

 

=======

 

I am not arguing with the argument. I am just saying that a game built on dual spec is better than a game not and then just tossing it over years of development and see what happens.

 

IMHO, THIS game is neither here nor there at this stage,...it's shining point is the storyline quests and VO. I am not here for the stellar innovative gameplay so put dual in or not,..

 

 

/cheers

[Psykhe]

A week from the first respec is when your timer will reset... Wait a damn week and stop changing roles so damn much

 

That is definitely wrong. It's been around 2 weeks since my first respec, no reset.

 

Tomorrow it will be 1 week since my last respec, will see if it resets then.

[Psykhe]

I can't think of any MMO that didn't have a 'grind'.

 

There is grind and there is grind. Of course all MMORPGs have grind, but the trick is how to do it.

 

A grind which only makes life harder for certain classes and or/activities is bad, as is a grind which is boring & bland (like grinding money always is).

 

EQ /Eve Online has an insane grind but I wouldn't call it a bad game.

 

See above. I never wrote about grind in general.

 

 

Gameplay built on unique classes tied to class questlines and lore.

 

Why? We are talking about dual spec, not class (AC) switching. How exactly does this conflict in any way with dual spec?

 

Usually Group loot tables distribute based on class to evenly reward players.(need/greed)

 

Thats the case in all MMORPGs with Dual Spec too. And how exactly does this not support /conflict with dual spec?

 

PvP balanced based on not being able to switch on the fly.

 

That is a blind assumption of yours and also wrong. Because if you focus on PvP you will have a PvP spec. PvP always has to be balanced on that due to this.

 

Or are you referring to switching from i.e. healer to dps while doing PvP? If yes, then you can easily simply disable dual spec switching which in a PvP area. Or make it impractical to switch in PvP by requiring you to be out of combat for 1 min or 2.That is hardly impossible.

 

a percentage of players DO like feeling unique in their investment and virtual life choices.

 

1% is a percentage too. There are always people who oppose something.

 

Maybe I want to play DPS. But players may flame you for not switching to healing/tanking since they KNOW you can.

 

"May" != "Will".

 

This scenario is a fantasy of yours. It never ever ever happened to me in games with dual spec.

In around 1 year playing WoW when dual spec was available I was *asked* ONCE if I could switch from dps to tank/healing.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Psykhe

[WelbyWars]

 

This scenario is a fantasy of yours. It never ever ever happened to me in games with dual spec.

In around 1 year playing WoW when dual spec was available I was *asked* ONCE if I could switch from dps to tank/healing.

 

It is not a fantasy,..it has happened to me and I've talked to others too. 1% is still a percent, you know.

 

I honestly don't know why you are being so aggressive anymore and I don't feel like continuing this grind.

 

bye!

[Psykhe]

It is not a fantasy,..it has happened to me and I've talked to others too. 1% is still a percent, you know.

 

And if 10% want it those 1% which do not do not really matter.

 

And if it happens to you what exactly forces you to switch specs? ALl you need to answer is that your 2nd spec is a dps PVP spec and then all they can is to tell you to respec. And you will be in exactly the same situation as you are now.

 

And I am "aggressive" because I keep hearing the same "arguments" all the time. Which usually boil down to "I do not need dual spec because I am dps and fear it might have negative effects on me, so I am against it, even if it would improve the gameplay for multiple others and make the game more fun in general".

 

And if you now want to answer "No, that isn't it" - well, I asked you to explain certain arguments of yours in my previous post, feel free to start there.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Psykhe

[Elblai]

I just don't understand why the solution "must" be Dual Spec. Would there be no other system or idea that would appease the sadistic charge? I'm one of those crazies that truly and honestly agree: we need more flexibility. I just don't want the way WoW does it in TOR, because I do see detriment down the road due to TOR's different style from WoW.

 

On a side note - I haven't heard much of either side giving respect to the views of the other. Respecting the people, yes, but not the opinion. Which would be the reason for my inclusion of the term 'sadistic' before. So many are foaming at the mouth over this.

 

The "You can just ignore it, it's only an option" rebuttal is only true for the short term. Should a Dual Spec be introduced it will be hailed and praised at first as a godsend. There will be detractors, true, and short term the negatives will be minimal. Those of us who don't like it and want our choices to matter can - as has been suggested - simply ignore it. But then, like WoW, it becomes part of the metagame. It becomes expected. Later, necessary.

 

Now, I understand the immediate response to this: "But it's not necessary in WoW, it's not forced in WoW!" And that is true. But WoW isn't as focused on your character, either. It's focused on what you can do. Can you do X damage? No? Then get out. Do you have X gearscore? No? Then you can't play with us. TOR focuses a lot more on what you ARE. Has to be, or there cannot be as deep a story as they have.

 

PvP and such will always be about 'doing X damage' and gaining an edge over the competition, that's the point - I understand that. Let's just not have the entire game be about that. It is, in my opinion, what ruined the community over at that other game and made it an unfun place to be.

 

That's why I give the "We'd like our choice to matter" argument some credit.

 

tl;dr - I just vomited opinion on the forums.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Elblai

[Psykhe]

Now, I understand the immediate response to this: "But it's not necessary in WoW, it's not forced in WoW!" And that is true. But WoW isn't as focused on your character, either. It's focused on what you can do. Can you do X damage? No? Then get out. Do you have X gearscore? No? Then you can't play with us. TOR focuses a lot more on what you ARE. Has to be, or there cannot be as deep a story as they have.

 

PvP and such will always be about 'doing X damage' and gaining an edge over the competition, that's the point - I understand that. Let's just not have the entire game be about that. It is, in my opinion, what ruined the community over at that other game and made it an unfun place to be.

 

That's why I give the "We'd like our choice to matter" argument some credit.

 

What I honestly do not understand is why you think this is linked to dual spec.

 

That attitude in WoW was in place long long before dual spec was even introduced. It wasn't like that if you had a bad spec before dualspec people were "Ah, its okay, we'll carry you.", it was "respec or get out".

 

And gearscore? How can you link that even remotely to dualspec?

[blueyedsoul]

I just don't understand why the solution "must" be Dual Spec. Would there be no other system or idea that would appease the sadistic charge? I'm one of those crazies that truly and honestly agree: we need more flexibility. I just don't want the way WoW does it in TOR, because I do see detriment down the road due to TOR's different style from WoW.

 

On a side note - I haven't heard much of either side giving respect to the views of the other. Respecting the people, yes, but not the opinion. Which would be the reason for my inclusion of the term 'sadistic' before. So many are foaming at the mouth over this.

 

The "You can just ignore it, it's only an option" rebuttal is only true for the short term. Should a Dual Spec be introduced it will be hailed and praised at first as a godsend. There will be detractors, true, and short term the negatives will be minimal. Those of us who don't like it and want our choices to matter can - as has been suggested - simply ignore it. But then, like WoW, it becomes part of the metagame. It becomes expected. Later, necessary.

 

Now, I understand the immediate response to this: "But it's not necessary in WoW, it's not forced in WoW!" And that is true. But WoW isn't as focused on your character, either. It's focused on what you can do. Can you do X damage? No? Then get out. Do you have X gearscore? No? Then you can't play with us. TOR focuses a lot more on what you ARE. Has to be, or there cannot be as deep a story as they have.

 

PvP and such will always be about 'doing X damage' and gaining an edge over the competition, that's the point - I understand that. Let's just not have the entire game be about that. It is, in my opinion, what ruined the community over at that other game and made it an unfun place to be.

 

That's why I give the "We'd like our choice to matter" argument some credit.

 

tl;dr - I just vomited opinion on the forums.

 

The point I take from your post is something I've noticed ever since I started playing MMOs with EQ back in 1999: There is a fundamental battle between the RP and the G in MMORPG.

 

The people who want to be immersed and enjoy a roleplaying experience often have disdain for the min/maxing metagaming activities, while those who approach the experience as a pure game enjoy the challenge of pushing their characters to the limit, and don't care too much if that makes little sense from the standpoint of story and canon.

 

The point is it's extremely hard, if not impossible, to please both groups. Do you try to encourage diversity and let everyone be a unique snowflake? Then you can't make encounters too challenging, or else the majority of your players won't be able to participate - only then the hardcore audience will tell you your game is boring and doesn't provide the excitement your competitors have.

 

Ultimately, I think as a developer you have to pick a side. You can make concessions and try to provide some of what both groups want, but when it comes to the end-game (which, hopefully will keep your subscribers around for a long time to come) I haven't seen a successful game that has it both ways. I think most games to this point have catered to the majority audience, which seems to be the G-gamers, but we shall see what BioWare does once they have a large population of max level characters.

[teacherjapan]

This game is not designed to be respec'ing willynilly. If you choose to do so that's your problem.

 

 

And who are you? The person who decided that? A developer? A game designer?

Or just someone with an opinion? And a silly one at that.

[Elblai]

What I honestly do not understand is why you think this is linked to dual spec.

 

That attitude in WoW was in place long long before dual spec was even introduced. It wasn't like that if you had a bad spec before dualspec people were "Ah, its okay, we'll carry you.", it was "respec or get out".

 

And gearscore? How can you link that even remotely to dualspec?

 

I mention these things because I find that they have similarly contributed to the mindset I was describing, not that they are comparable themselves.

 

 

The point I take from your post is something I've noticed ever since I started playing MMOs with EQ back in 1999: There is a fundamental battle between the RP and the G in MMORPG.

 

You've got me dead to rights, there. And I agree with almost (only one point I don't) everything you've put forth. Most MMO developers do go the way of dropping the RP in favor of the G. Bioware seemed to support a different approach. Something new, unfamiliar perhaps. I personally like that.

I support it because I don't think the G-Gamer catering MMO's are actually catering to the majority, I think the majority have catered to the only kind of MMO's that have been widely available. Personal opinion.

 

Again, I'm favor of change here. I'd simply like to see a concession that Duel Spec isn't the ONLY answer. There are other ways to combat this stagnation of customization and flexibility.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Elblai

[Psykhe]

I mention these things because I find that they have similarly contributed to the mindset I was describing, not that they are comparable themselves.

 

I still do not get how dual spec fits in that mindset though.

[Ethias]

Dual spec is NOT the only way, but it is perhaps the most recognized and the easiest, on the player, to work with.

 

The reason being that a properly implemented dual spec system will change abilities etc for you on your hotbars, so you don't need to do it yourself.

 

Otherwise it takes time... which isn't a huge problem at all, and is just a minor inconvience.

[Gaun]

There is seriously no spec you cant level with with any class.. its just a question of what companion you are using and if you are actually upgrading its gear at most.. end of story.

[Canarith]

maybe you are just a bad player, I used to be a healer and i can tell you level MUCH faster if you switch to dps.

 

How is he a bad player because he can level fast as a healer. You assume he must be bad and slow as a dps simply because he manages to level quickly as a healer. it really isn't hard to level quickly as a healer in this game. If you think it is, you are the one that is bad, not the guy you referred to.

[todokim]

Okay, all of you guys suggesting dual spec should be implemented, what next? Why not heck implement a triple spec to please those people that play Guardian and want the option to tank for group instances, dps for soloing and use force for pvp or any other reasons they may want to use all three of their different roles??

 

This argument for wanting dual spec is simply unnecessary. I am not a Guardian myself but am playing a sage specced fully into the healing tree and also have other characters that are dps spec and can say that I see no problem for healers to lvl as fast as dps based characters.

[hopefulhotaru]

There are already rigid character choices in the game. They're called choosing classes and advanced classes. I don't really understand the reasons against spec flexibility other than to reduce the availability of tanks and healers.

[Blutelf]

Wait, why exactly do healers have to accept the drawbacks of "choosing their role", but DPS don't? Even Tanks have decent solo capabilities. What's their drawback?

 

This is obviously ridiculous. It takes me 30 minutes to finish a daily quest where I can't avoid mobs. Why exactly can DPS gear up much faster, and never sacrifice anything and healers are told to "lol accept your drawback you choose your role"?

 

Such a dumb statement, it boggles my mind. Some people are really just reading the forums to post their stupid opinions on everything without actually thinking.

 

Allow me to do daily respecs on Illum and Belsavis, and I am more than happy to be a healer.

 

Also I really don't care how you leveled in this game, you could have leveled without spending skill points for all I care.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Blutelf

[cacomixl]

I was initially completely against dual specs. However, after further thought, I'd have no issue with a secondary spec that activated only upon entering warzones or pvp areas. This would take care of the pvp crowd and among my characters I can already see where'd I'd spec differently if I was building for PvP.

 

PvE-wise, tweaking isn't really done all that much after the cookie-cutter specs are out. Once all the EJs have figured it out, there will be no need for respecing more than after major balance patches. In as such, we shouldn't build something into the game now that won't be useful later in the game's life. Furthermore, since the respec charges do reset after a while, I'm not sure a change in the pricing is even warranted at this time.

 

As has been stated, leveling up as healer or tank IS NOT difficult nor painful in the least due to the companion system. I've already rolled six characters myself and doubled on two of the classes and plan on doubling up on last 2 to pick up all the ACs. (Initially six due to wanting to be a self-sufficient crafter and "gearer" of alt army.)

 

To conclude, the game is too young to form any ideations of how the mature game will unfold. Not even the chief game designer knows that at this point and all this forum theorycraft will be water under the bridge. Let the game mature and this topic can be revisited. Let us see how things will pan out when almost all of the populace has at least one level 50 character, then revisit this topic instead of making a knee-jerk design change for a legitimately small but seemingly huge issue now.

[Caelrie]

PvE-wise, tweaking isn't really done all that much after the cookie-cutter specs are out. Once all the EJs have figured it out, there will be no need for respecing more than after major balance patches. In as such, we shouldn't build something into the game now that won't be useful later in the game's life. Furthermore, since the respec charges do reset after a while, I'm not sure a change in the pricing is even warranted at this time.

Since dual-speccing never becomes useless, your argument must be fundamentally flawed somewhere. Can you find it?