duigha Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 ok you obviously dont understand EA's way of doing things, lol, they arent trying to gain subs, or keep subs, lol, they are simply trying to milk what they can from the game while they can while spending as little money and effort on the game, then they will shut it down and move on, like they have with past games. qft The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Solo has a LOT of issues, but fewer than the group game and it is still a better measure of skill. Lastly, the group game is just comps of broken classes fighting comps of the same broken classes. while I prefer solo and concur that the better players will rate higher in both, it's delusional to think that solo is a better measure of skill than grp. it doesn't matter how good one person is, if the other team gets a boss healer and you get a poor one, you're team is toast. it's more challenging for the elite player because he has to carry ppl. it's more interesting because the teams change every match (sort of like kick ball). it's more frustrating for elitists for that same reason. but it most certainly is not a better measure of skill. it's a lottery: who's on your team vs. who's on the other team is the major factor and it's largely arbitrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidichIorian Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Sync Q'ing in this game = digging up 3-7 friends to make sure that the thing actually pops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KamujinKravshera Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 while I prefer solo and concur that the better players will rate higher in both, it's delusional to think that solo is a better measure of skill than grp. it doesn't matter how good one person is, if the other team gets a boss healer and you get a poor one, you're team is toast. it's more challenging for the elite player because he has to carry ppl. it's more interesting because the teams change every match (sort of like kick ball). it's more frustrating for elitists for that same reason. but it most certainly is not a better measure of skill. it's a lottery: who's on your team vs. who's on the other team is the major factor and it's largely arbitrary. I think it's a mistake not to recognize that the solo queue has been more effective in ranking players than the group queue. You're theory doesn't not appear to be backed up by observational data. Your concerns about team imbalance applies to everyone who isn't able to sync queue their group. As such, in the long run, the only common factor of every game you play is YOU. Your ability to impact the outcome drives your rank. Your lucky group or unlucky group just increases variance and makes it take more games for you to converge with your correct rank. I'm not trying to start a fight with you, but your argument is a common argument made by people who don't really understand statistics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) I think it's a mistake not to recognize that the solo queue has been more effective in ranking players than the group queue. You're theory doesn't not appear to be backed up by observational data. Your concerns about team imbalance applies to everyone who isn't able to sync queue their group. As such, in the long run, the only common factor of every game you play is YOU. Your ability to impact the outcome drives your rank. Your lucky group or unlucky group just increases variance and makes it take more games for you to converge with your correct rank. I'm not trying to start a fight with you, but your argument is a common argument made by people who don't really understand statistics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers Oh my god not that law of numbers crap again. Solo queue is referred as the yolo queue for a reason. Queue synching aside I have a hard time buying into the fact that it's a true measure of skill when you have no knowledge or any factor in over how your team will play, respond, not rage quit...etc etc. You can be an excellent player but that doesn't mean jack if your team is incapable of performing the most simplest of things in arenas which is pressing buttons at the right time. Edited March 10, 2014 by cycao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KamujinKravshera Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 Oh my god not that law of numbers crap again. Solo queue is referred as the yolo queue for a reason. Queue synching aside I have a hard time buying into the fact that it's a true measure of skill when you have no knowledge or any factor in over how your team will play, respond, not rage quit...etc etc. You can be an excellent player but that doesn't mean jack if your team is incapable of performing the most simplest of things in arenas which is pressing buttons at the right time. Yeah, I know. Math facts really do get in the way sometimes. Don't worry, you are not the only one who doesn't get this if that help. Anyhow, ALL of the unexpected things you describe happen to EVERYONE. The better players are better at dealing with it. Crazy right? I mean, after all, isn't the essence of PvP about being able to overcome the unexpected. If you want scripted fights, why not just PvE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never_Hesitate Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Like what the others say cross server would be the answer for so many things. Like the question: What is needed to make pvp really competitive but the devs will probably never implement it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Yeah, I know. Math facts really do get in the way sometimes. Don't worry, you are not the only one who doesn't get this if that help. Anyhow, ALL of the unexpected things you describe happen to EVERYONE. The better players are better at dealing with it. Crazy right? I mean, after all, isn't the essence of PvP about being able to overcome the unexpected. If you want scripted fights, why not just PvE? Scripted fights? And yes, good players are capable of dealing with a wide range of scenarios but that doesn't negate the fact that solo is still completely random with a very questionable matchmaking system. If you want to think that better players are in the solo queue that's fine but I know plenty of people who wont agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Yeah, I know. Math facts really do get in the way sometimes. Don't worry, you are not the only one who doesn't get this if that help. Anyhow, ALL of the unexpected things you describe happen to EVERYONE. The better players are better at dealing with it. Crazy right? I mean, after all, isn't the essence of PvP about being able to overcome the unexpected. If you want scripted fights, why not just PvE? I'm sorry. I'm still waiting for why solo rating is a better measure of skill than group when NONE of the arbitrary "lottery" factors about team composition are in play. also...ratings are assigned individually, but it's a group sport. the group wins/loses. your rating is only as good as the group you play with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KamujinKravshera Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 Scripted fights? And yes, good players are capable of dealing with a wide range of scenarios but that doesn't negate the fact that solo is still completely random with a very questionable matchmaking system. If you want to think that better players are in the solo queue that's fine but I know plenty of people who wont agree. Solo queue players have to deal with all classes, all specs, and all kinds of players. IMO, a player who can thrive in this environment is without question a better player than someone who can only win with the right spec, right team, and most predictable tactics. To your point about randomness, so what? Randomness is just variance, it's mean reverting over a large sample size. There is randomness is every aspect of this game. The only REAL downsides to randomness are... 1) If the randomness is unevenly applied as is the case when people are able to successfully sync queue. 2) Randomness slows down convergence to the true mean. You still get the correct mean, you just require a larger sample size. The defects in the group game far outweigh these 2 minor issues. Issue 2 isn't even a real issue as players typically play a large number of games each season. So yes, you are entitled to your opinion and you may have people who agree with you, but your argument is not compelling to me and I hope you will not take it personally when I continue to think you are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Solo queue players have to deal with all classes, all specs, and all kinds of players. IMO, a player who can thrive in this environment is without question a better player than someone who can only win with the right spec, right team, and most predictable tactics. To your point about randomness, so what? Randomness is just variance, it's mean reverting over a large sample size. There is randomness is every aspect of this game. The only REAL downsides to randomness are... 1) If the randomness is unevenly applied as is the case when people are able to successfully sync queue. 2) Randomness slows down convergence to the true mean. You still get the correct mean, you just require a larger sample size. The defects in the group game far outweigh these 2 minor issues. Issue 2 isn't even a real issue as players typically play a large number of games each season. So yes, you are entitled to your opinion and you may have people who agree with you, but your argument is not compelling to me and I hope you will not take it personally when I continue to think you are wrong. Solo queue is a lottery. You can easily be a crap player and get carried if you have good players with you. You cannot get carried in grouped ranked, you're only as good as your weakest player and any mistake will cost you but that's not the case in solo ranked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domatron Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Arguing that solo ranked takes more skill to win than group ranked is the same as arguing that regular 8v8s take more skill to win than the old ranked 8v8s. The arguments are identical, randomization vs coordination. Yet you will almost never find anyone that agrees regs were harder. The only reason to argue solos are harder is personal bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KamujinKravshera Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 Solo queue is a lottery. You can easily be a crap player and get carried if you have good players with you. You cannot get carried in grouped ranked, you're only as good as your weakest player and any mistake will cost you but that's not the case in solo ranked. The opposite is actually true. You can't consistently get carried in solo. However, you can get carried in every game in group ranked. I can think of many people who were carried in group ranked, who are complete non-factors in the solo ratings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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