Sage/Sorc healing hybrids in solo ranked arenas, and the issues they create

[Twithep]

This is a fairly long post, i wanted to make it detailed and serious because i want this spec gone - but in case you can't be bothered to read all of it i've made a short summary inside this spoiler tag:

Sage and Sorcerers have lately popped up all over using a hybrid spec that let's the use innervate/healing trance to do fairly powerful heals in solo ranked arenas, while still registering as dps to the queuing system. This is extremely powerful if they can get a tank, but also very powerful without one. I feel this shakes the dynamics of solo ranked too much, in some ways like the ion vanguard/powertech controversy, and should be dealt with.

 

 

 

 

For the last weeks/months there has been a large increase in the amount of players running dps hybrids in the sorcerer/sage advanced classes where they pick up innervate/healing trance with the intention of healing in solo ranked. The issue with this, is that the queuing system recognizes them as pure dps, so they get put into 4dps matches, 3dps+tank matches and the like.

 

In many ways this issue is alike the now removed ion hybrid for vanguards and powertechs, but in other ways not: one example is how an ion hybrid could stay in the middle tree as full dps, and simply change stance and/or gear whenever it felt necessary, so that he/she would not spoil eventual 2dps+tank+healer matches due to lack of damage. This is not possible for the heal hybrid, because they need at the very least 21 points in the healing tree to get innervate or healing trance (example). This leads to heal hybrids doing inferior damage, which in matches with tanks and healer can lead to neither team getting kills or making it impossible for the team with the hybrid to get one.

 

The largest issue shows up in 4dps matches if another teammate of the sorcerer/sage has the ability to go into a tank stance and guard, or 3dps+tank matches; the matches here practically turn into a full teams of 2 dps+tank+healer versus a 4dps/3dps+tank team, which is very unfair for the team that has no healer since the other team easily can outlast them and win. This is the largest issue, but nowhere near the only one: i will try to present as many issues this spec presents as possible, but suggestions for other reasons are very welcome.

 

In the case that no teammate can guard, or is willing to, the heal hybrid still has it's strengths: it has survivability far beyond normal dps without healers, due to their combinations of heals, kiting, crowd control and force barrier. The other team has its possibilities of tactics drastically reduced, since they simply can't win if they let the heal hybrid freecast. Another thing is that they have to put a significant amount of pressure on the heal hybrid to bring it down, which gives the 3 dps remaining on its team good time do huge damage to their team, and possibly kill them all before the heal hybrid is dead.

 

The heal hybrids don't necessarily lose full matches of tank+healer+2dps either, they give their team more survivability than it had, and often this makes the matches last until acid, where sorcerers have a good chance of winning using their absorb bubble, 10sec immunity bubble, knockback and force speed. This would not really have been an issue (apart from making matches very boring) if all teams had a sage/sorcerer hybrid healer, but that is simply not the case.

 

If you look at the leaderboard for solo ranked, and sort by Sage/Sorcerer, then by rating, you will see four sorcs on spots 2-5 with 2.3k rating from the server Tomb of Freedon Nadd. All of these sorcs run the heal hybrid spec (don't take my word for it, im hoping they will report in on this thread themselves). Not all of them have gained all their rating with this spec, Housemd got most of his rating as a healer, whereas Ärhimond got quite a bit playing pure dps, but they have all gained a good chunk of rating from this spec. The point here is that they have queued as sorc dps, and for many reason i won't go into, sorc dps are simply not powerful enough to gain that high a rating and sustain it over time. I'm not trying to say these players are bad players due to playing this spec, the four of them are all skilled and play it very well, them being good however, does not make the spec any less unfair.

 

EDIT1:

I felt an explanation of what point allocations the spec uses and how this is registered as dps was due, although this might lead to even more people playing the spec, it's not any kind of trade secret. The previously linked spec (this one) is the basis, from it one can build different specs as long as one has at least as many point in one dps tree, as in the healing tree (not entirely sure if you can split these points between the dps trees and still register as dps). This is an example spec that uses the lightning tree for dps, if ones queues in solo ranked this still registers as dps, although one has as many points in the healing tree as in the dps. Here is another example that uses the madness tree for damage instead, the force management is more tricky in this spec due to the lack of lightning effusion, but in return the damage is often higher, and more singletarget oriented.

 

There is nothing stopping one from using more points in dps trees than in the healing trees, this is simply the trees i put up quickly now, it's also meant to showcase how it still registers as dps. One could almost think bioware planned this, and that this is what they meant when they told us sorcs to "Heal to Full and Make Them Pay" (this is a pun bioware, no hard feelings as long as you do something with this spec before season 2). I'll even remove it if you ask nicely.

 

 

I'll probably add some more things, like ideas for how to remove the spec, but right now i just want to get this posted. Please post corrections, suggestions, rebuttals or whatever, as long as it contributes to make this thread big

 

This is as much an explanation of the problem, as a plea to bioware to nerf/remove this spec.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Twithep

[Aerilas]

Before people start saying that the 4dps trying to kill the sage/sorc hybrid healer are bad, I've tried this spec aswell and I can say it's extremely unbalanced. Much more so than the ion cell PT hybrid. (played 6, won 5)

A sorc hybrid can simply outlast the focus taken much longer than any other class that will get focused from the other team. This puts your team miles ahead once (if) dead and usually results in an instawin. No matter how good the dps are from the opposing team.

 

In games with a real healer you are not really at a disadvantage either. These games are a bit more fair yet still a small advantage. It's very hard for someone in the "skankhealer" team to die, yet its certainly possible for the opposing team to lose a member of their team. A skankhealer can certainly still put out some nice damage if played correctly whilst helping heals when necessary.

 

In games with healer-tank, well, OP explained it pretty well. These games tend to go to the acid round and are extremely boring.

 

The biggest advantage is obviously in 4dps games and well, those are by FAR most common when queueing as a DPS. On our server (ToFN) it's gone out of control now. 90% of the sages and sorcs are playing this and they're sucking the fun out of Solo Ranked. If the opposing team has one and your team doesn't it usually leads down to a loss. (inb4 solo ranked isnt fun lolz)

 

to quote someone: "if you can't beat them, join them"

Yeah... that solves it.

[clubdeeko]

I agree that the spec is total BS and is starting to become a nightmare.

 

Either introduce stances so that healing or dps is locked down before entering an arena or move certain abilities up one tier, ie innverate/healing trance as this will kill the hybrid and force it to 24/22 spec. So what if it messes with lowbies. At the end of the day they are leveling and what is one to two more levels to grind?

 

I can safely say that if its not fixed we will see an influx of healing hybrids in season 2 and this will probably kill arenas as they are on life support as it is.

[madtycoon]

Next expansion they need to copy WoW and just remove talent trees. I highly doubt the developers intend for hybrid specs to be used in this game. Talent trees cause all sorts of problems. They make leveling more annoying, because you can't give some classes their core abilities early on. Talent trees, how they are currently set-up, doesn't really give much versatility with specs. I mean for the most part everyone selects the same talents. A WoW style talent system would be better in every way. You could have talent changes before warzones/arenas, but still disallow spec changing and there would be no hybrids specs to worry about, but more of an overall selection of talents.

 

I don't even know if this is a problem with sorc hybrids. I mean its a gamble using that spec, if you don't know for sure what's queuing. But how do you fix it without changing how the talent system works? Put innervate at the top of the tree? I mean its already really high up there. Make the queue system register a sorc as a healer if they pick up innervate? What about tank sins that pick up low slash? And you can still guard as a dps no matter what talents you choose.

[Drezdonat]

I was one of the first players on TOFN

actually first

who started playing this spec in solo ranked arenas. Mostly because it was only viable for sorc's in SR. Only after that i started to gain some rating. Besides

i am agree, that this build is quite op in all dps SR matches, and i really hope that bioware will fix it. IMO best solution will be to put Innervate higher in the corruption skill tree.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Drezdonat

[VdFExarKun]

BW needs to remove this hybrid spec for sages and sorcs, it's kinda getting out of hand, there are so many of them queuing on ToFN.

 

Also had a game couple of mins back and 5 people out of 8 were healing, 2 were full healers, but 3 were offhealing with that retarded hybrid spec. Screenshot

Edited March 7, 2014 by VdFExarKun

[AdrianDmitruk]

Part of the reason why the hybrid is so popular is simply because Fadeout is so ridiculously necessary for sorcs to LOS and kite, yet no pure DPS spec can get it until 2.7. Full sorc healers also have little in the way of self-peeling capacity, the least of all healing classes, which let's face it, is necessary for solo ranked, which makes the CC offered by hybrid even more tempting. It's not just about innervate (which is only 4 points higher than fadeout on live, so if you're going for fadeout as a DPS, you might as well also get innervate...)

 

2.7 leaves sorc healing almost unchanged while allowing 36-point DPSers access to Fadeout, if they're willing to sacrifice a couple damage talents for it. I suspect that after 2.7 we'll see at least some of the hybrid sorcs (like yours truly) go full DPS.

[Arkerus]

Before Blizzard butchered the skill trees in wow, they made some very important fixes.

 

They moved critical skills up much higher in the skills trees so hybrid specs were never as good, and basically gimped, for trying to build a hybrid spec.

 

I support this solution completely. On Pot5, empire sorcs are abusing the solo queue by queueing as DPS but bringing a ton of healing into what is supposed to be a 4v4 DPS race.

 

You will see teams of 2 or 3 sorcs abuse the system giving the team a ridiculous advantage. This has to be fixed.

[Avicii]

Next expansion they need to copy WoW and just remove talent trees. I highly doubt the developers intend for hybrid specs to be used in this game. Talent trees cause all sorts of problems. They make leveling more annoying, because you can't give some classes their core abilities early on. Talent trees, how they are currently set-up, doesn't really give much versatility with specs. I mean for the most part everyone selects the same talents. A WoW style talent system would be better in every way. You could have talent changes before warzones/arenas, but still disallow spec changing and there would be no hybrids specs to worry about, but more of an overall selection of talents.

 

I don't even know if this is a problem with sorc hybrids. I mean its a gamble using that spec, if you don't know for sure what's queuing. But how do you fix it without changing how the talent system works? Put innervate at the top of the tree? I mean its already really high up there. Make the queue system register a sorc as a healer if they pick up innervate? What about tank sins that pick up low slash? And you can still guard as a dps no matter what talents you choose.

 

No thank you to removing talent trees. Just move talent points around to break the hybrids as they have done in ever instant in the past with all hybrids if they are an issue for balance in ranked with the top 10% players skill level.

[howieloader]

Juggs, Snipers, Ops, and Maras complaining about a Sage build is ridiculously hilarious... Get real...

[NogueiraA]

Juggs, Snipers, Ops, and Maras complaining about a Sage build is ridiculously hilarious... Get real...

This.

 

There's bad players to complain for all the classes. Bioware LISTEN to the bads, Bioware love the bad players.

 

I play a marauder and Op healer in pvp.

[Chrisweaver]

Lol you guys should have seen sorc hybrid heals pre 2.0. It's just a shell of its former self now. Interrupt innervate and burn his force. Have fun. Edited March 8, 2014 by Chrisweaver

[Ycoga]

I was one of the first players on TOFN

actually first

who started playing this spec in solo ranked arenas. Mostly because it was only viable for sorc's in SR. Only after that i started to gain some rating. Besides

i am agree, that this build is quite op in all dps SR matches, and i really hope that bioware will fix it. IMO best solution will be to put Innervate higher in the corruption skill tree.

 

You may've been the first in TOFN ranked, but put credit where it's due - this spec is called YcoNiman and I've been telling people about it since early 2013.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6181262&postcount=3

[TonyDragonflame]

Juggs, Snipers, Ops, and Maras complaining about a Sage build is ridiculously hilarious... Get real...

 

Juggs, dps operatives and snipers on bottom ranked leaderboards, after 2.7 there will be maras too.

 

Sorcs hybrids must be fixed how were fixed times before pt/vanguards, sins/shadows and juggs/guardians hybrids.

[AdamLKvist]

You may've been the first in TOFN ranked, but put credit where it's due - this spec is called YcoNiman and I've been telling people about it since early 2013.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6181262&postcount=3

 

Because you built together a hybrid that people have been playing for far longer than your post you suppose players that perform incredibly well above your level should name it your random name?

 

LOL

[CaptainApop]

The spec might be BS but I struggle to maintain any real venom over it when I've encountered maybe two pure dps sorcs that don't get pounded into the dirt immediately in SR every round.

 

I'd like to see what 2.7 brings to this in a coupleof weeks. Kill the spec or nerf it if it's overperforming by all means but I'd rather have the class have at least A spec that's considered strong than none at all.

Edited March 8, 2014 by CaptainApop

[honkymonkey]

Part of the reason why the hybrid is so popular is simply because Fadeout is so ridiculously necessary for sorcs to LOS and kite, yet no pure DPS spec can get it until 2.7.

 

 

This. +1

[Liquor]

LoL you think rolling healer or hybrid automatically sets you as healer in 4vs4??

 

Umm, check the queue and what you have selected . . . Plenty of us are healers displaying dmg and visa versa.

[Twithep]

Juggs, Snipers, Ops, and Maras complaining about a Sage build is ridiculously hilarious... Get real...

 

First of all, what a useless and stupid reply, even though it's a sage/sorc spec that doesn't mean it can't destroy the dynamics of sr and be overpowered (in some ways).

 

Secondly, i main a sorc, i don't play the hybrid because of how i feel about it, but i do play full dps and heals. I do fairly well as both, dps sorcs have too little cc and burst (0/30/16 is an exception to this, i never really got the hang of it in sr), and madness which i play relies on dots which breaks cc, these and more things makes madness unviable for high-level solo ranked. Pure healing is not in a very bad place, interrupts do hurt but it's possible to live through it using static barriers and the aoe heal cleverly as well as placing oneself so that people won't get those interrupts easily.

 

The main issue here is that having a heal hybrid sorc/sage on your team is really, really bad for sorc dps' and healers. One thing is the static barrier, with this many sages/sorcs queuing one of their strongest abilities is usable by only one in a team of up to four. Another thing is how heal hybrids usually are very bad at putting out pressure through damage, which means the other team often unhindered can put out large amounts of pressure and go all out without having to worry about their teammates dying. This is not a real issue with a good sage/sorc hybrids on your team, but god knows there are very many terrible ones queuing at the moment. Some of them might be able to play the spec, but they don't understand tactics, cc and teamwork. They are also much worse at staying alive than experienced sorc dps and healers, that know how positioning works, how to save oneself from bad situations etc.

 

Another thing is how they make rounds simply boring, having one on a team of 2dps+tank+healer often leads to your team staying practically topped through the entire match, with the other team (if they are good) staying alive fairly easily as well. You then get an overflow of acid rounds, which i think is boring, although i can't deny it's given me many wins since most people are very, very bad at playing acid to their advantage.

 

I'm not saying sorcs/sages don't deserve a good dps spec, but i do not think this is the way to do it. If you have read the other replies here and the op, then (if you are able to think rationally, something tells me your are not) you should be able to make a rational reply stating why you think this spec is in an ok place, how it's completely fair and balanced, and how it absolutely does not rely on abusing the queuing system to queue as dps while intending to heal.

[JouerTue]

mm tears..so sweet

[Aerilas]

Juggs, Snipers, Ops, and Maras complaining about a Sage build is ridiculously hilarious... Get real...

 

Lol what an utter ******** reply. The first 4 of us that replied play sorcerer.

 

Also, wonderful how NOBODY gives a decent constructed reply and basically 90% of the replies are trolls.

Way to contribute to the community guys.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Aerilas

[AlrikFassbauer]

For the last weeks/months there has been a large increase in the amount of players running dps hybrids in the sorcerer/sage advanced classes

 

Perhaps because the full tries aren't that viable ?

 

In the case that no teammate can guard, or is willing to, the heal hybrid still has it's strengths: it has survivability far beyond normal dps without healers, due to their combinations of heals, kiting, crowd control and force barrier.

 

Or in short : H2F + make them pay.

 

I agree that the spec is total BS and is starting to become a nightmare.

 

I'll play the Heretic here and say :

 

It is ultimatively the players' fault : By focusing "TEH HEALER FIRST !!!111eleven" players made Sorcs / Sages look out for BETTER alternatives.

 

Which they found.

 

This is called evbolution : You put pressure into one area, the system respends by seeking ways to reliese the pressure.

 

Predators are chasing hares ? Those hares with better survivability will remain.

 

This is simply what has happened. Cyniocally said it is all the player's fault : Their behaviour made the Sorc / Sage class going into directions of far better survivability.

 

Now, deal with it.

Edited March 8, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[AlrikFassbauer]

mm tears..so sweet

 

Do you miss candy ?

[Twithep]

Perhaps because the full tries aren't that viable ?

I agree, i said earlier that i don't think heal hybrids is a good solution, and i still stand by that.

 

I'll play the Heretic here and say :

 

It is ultimatively the players' fault : By focusing "TEH HEALER FIRST !!!111eleven" players made Sorcs / Sages look out for BETTER alternatives.

 

Which they found.

 

This is called evbolution : You put pressure into one area, the system respends by seeking ways to reliese the pressure.

 

Predators are chasing hares ? Those hares with better survivability will remain.

 

This is simply what has happened. Cyniocally said it is all the player's fault : Their behaviour made the Sorc / Sage class going into directions of far better survivability.

 

Now, deal with it.

So, basically, if a spec is bad one should resort to abusing the system and playing specs like the hybrid? I gave many reason for why it destroys sr, there is no reason bioware shouldn't make the dps viable over having a stupid fix like hybrid healing.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I agree, i said earlier that i don't think heal hybrids is a good solution, and i still stand by that.

 

 

So, basically, if a spec is bad one should resort to abusing the system and playing specs like the hybrid? I gave many reason for why it destroys sr, there is no reason bioware shouldn't make the dps viable over having a stupid fix like hybrid healing.

 

I only said that if people feel pressured too much into one direction, they will go and try to find a way to relieve that pressure.

 

And the pressure in this case is : The Sorc being the far favourite target of EVERYONE, it's like a bad habit.

 

And if people have the feeling that they are not able to defend themselves as a pure healer - for example - then they are looking for ways to make them pay.

Edited March 8, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer