TRFWesVos Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Even so, a minelayer should be just that. That does not negate the point that a bomber/minelayer should not be a good dogfighter. That should be the scout's, or maybe a specialized striker's, roll. Making a bomber/minelayer able to dogfight a scout/striker takes away the uniqueness of those ships' roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin_Kelvar Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Even so, a minelayer should be just that. That does not negate the point that a bomber/minelayer should not be a good dogfighter. That should be the scout's, or maybe a specialized striker's, roll. Making a bomber/minelayer able to dogfight a scout/striker takes away the uniqueness of those ships' roles. In the number of times I've gone against a bomber in my Type 1 striker I can safely say they are definitely not the equal of a striker in a dogfight all things being equal. The only times a bomber "out dogfights" me is when 1) I make a tactical error that they are able to exploit 2) they prove to be slightly better at dictating the engagement and mitigate their weaknesses to let them beat me. (Discounting the bomber's escorts engaging me in which case even if the bomber gets the kill they didn't "out dogfight" me, they beat me through overwhelming numbers and in all probability I would've died if they had been flying any of the other ships in that situation). Now I have seen bombers beat scouts but I'd wager that the majority of the time a scout loses is because they were taking on a target that they lack the heavy weaponry to kill. Part of dogfighting is knowing the limitations of your ship and not getting into engagements that play to those weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itkovian Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 In the number of times I've gone against a bomber in my Type 1 striker I can safely say they are definitely not the equal of a striker in a dogfight all things being equal. The only times a bomber "out dogfights" me is when 1) I make a tactical error that they are able to exploit 2) they prove to be slightly better at dictating the engagement and mitigate their weaknesses to let them beat me. (Discounting the bomber's escorts engaging me in which case even if the bomber gets the kill they didn't "out dogfight" me, they beat me through overwhelming numbers and in all probability I would've died if they had been flying any of the other ships in that situation). Now I have seen bombers beat scouts but I'd wager that the majority of the time a scout loses is because they were taking on a target that they lack the heavy weaponry to kill. Part of dogfighting is knowing the limitations of your ship and not getting into engagements that play to those weaknesses. This. I eat bombers for breakfast in my Pike. Proton Torpedoes are your friends. Quite frankly I think bombers wouldn't be as much of an issue if more people understood the effectiveness of the Tier 2 strike fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRFWesVos Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 This. I eat bombers for breakfast in my Pike. Proton Torpedoes are your friends. Quite frankly I think bombers wouldn't be as much of an issue if more people understood the effectiveness of the Tier 2 strike fighter. If I had my Pike upgraded the way my Star Guard is, I'd go for that. Unfortunately, I tricked out my Star Guard before there were Bombers. That said, advice from Iktovian is always welcome. I'll probably try that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itkovian Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 If I had my Pike upgraded the way my Star Guard is, I'd go for that. Unfortunately, I tricked out my Star Guard before there were Bombers. That said, advice from Iktovian is always welcome. I'll probably try that. Well, to be fair, I eat bombers alive with my Star Guard as well, and it's definitely easier to clear out mine/dronefields with the Heavy Lasers. My Pike uses quad lasers/clusters/protorps... so I need to get in closer to nail the minefields, which is a bit risky, unless I feel like dedicating a protorp to a drone. But for attacking a bomber, I make short work of them with protorps followed by quads and clusters. If course, that's not even considering EMP missiles. A dedicated bomber hunter would go with protorps/EMP/Heavy lasers, and would be absolute murder... but I get more overall usefulness out of my current build, and I feel versatility is more important for Strike fighters (also, since bombers tend to hump cover, clusters are still quite appropriate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama-Eight Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Now I have seen bombers beat scouts but I'd wager that the majority of the time a scout loses is because they were taking on a target that they lack the heavy weaponry to kill. Or they were really bad pilots. Part of dogfighting is knowing the limitations of your ship and not getting into engagements that play to those weaknesses. Which, given the amount of posts calling for bombers to be nerfed/removed/etc seems to be something that quite a few people don't understand, don't want to understand or choose to ignore so that they can continue to fly their preferred ship (which I can kinda understand, but still don't think they really have a leg to stand on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgrid Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Even so, a minelayer should be just that. That does not negate the point that a bomber/minelayer should not be a good dogfighter. That should be the scout's, or maybe a specialized striker's, roll. Making a bomber/minelayer able to dogfight a scout/striker takes away the uniqueness of those ships' roles. I'm sorry, did you say a bomber was good at dogfighting? Suuure. Let me go grab a sandwich while I wait to finish this turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Per his description, he was outmaneuvered (by tactics) not outrun... He could not follow because of the mines. Missing most of the thread because I need to run out the door, but if you're getting outrun by bombers dropping mines on a scout, you're doing it wrong. Scout engines are very efficient and scout base turning rate is rather high, so the increased distance of travel to account for dodging mines is thus essentially trivial. (Of course, guy could have confirmed he was in a scout and I just missed it -- and in that case, guy, learn some geometry.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahWSD Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) Bombers don't really dogfight. In a turning battle (the hallmark of a dogfight) the bomber will lose every time. Most of my kills on bombers have been head on engagements (tanking through the enemy fire) or finishing off someone else's target. This is part of why bombers get so many assists. If someone gets in behind me all I can do is seek cover and pray for help. Also, if you take away bombers' ability to boost you may as well remove them from the game since it'll take them a third of the match to even reach the engagement. The LOS issue definitely needs to be fixed and I wouldn't mind EMP missiles getting either longer range or a shorter cool down. Edited March 12, 2014 by RebekahWSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zharik Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Bombers don't really dogfight. In a turning battle (the hallmark of a dogfight) the bomber will lose every time. Ah but bombers can defend their rear ends, which throws a wrench in the scenario. On a satellite, I disagree that they "lose every time". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahWSD Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) Ah but bombers can defend their rear ends, which throws a wrench in the scenario. On a satellite, I disagree that they "lose every time". What I meant was there is no ship that a bomber can out turn. Granted the ready cover of the satellite does throw a (hydro)spanner into the works, but I maintain that it's damned hard to kill a pursuer without support. I've killed and been killed in the scenario too many times to believe otherwise. Edited March 12, 2014 by RebekahWSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin_Kelvar Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Ah but bombers can defend their rear ends, which throws a wrench in the scenario. Technically speaking that capability would be a natural part of being a bomber. Sure mines/drones aren't technically tailguns but in this case they're pretty much performing that function which would be found on a bomber. Heck the only reason Y-Wings from A New Hope don't have rear turrets is because of the limitations of special effects. That's part of why scouts are unsuited to kill bombers but strikers are. As long as friendly fighters keep the bomber's escorts off your tail a striker should have enough endurance to tank the bomber's "tail guns" long enough to shoot down the bomber. Using Ion cannons on my Type 1 striker I can usually bring down the bomber's shields and destroy it before the mines/drones they're dropping can break my shields. (Obviously though if the bomber and their escorts tag team me I don't fare as well but that's kinda to be expected when you're outnumbered) On a satellite, I disagree that they "lose every time". I will grant using drones/mines as portable cover is a cheap tactic and needs to be looked at but to be fair Type 1 scouts pioneered that tactic with sensor beacons pre-2.6 so it was kind of inevitable that it would return as soon as something else was put in game that could be used in a similar fashion. But like LOS issues the devs likely never intended those things to happen and just need to figure out a fix. Also I'm not entirely sure how often when a bomber wins at a sat it's because they're too good or whether (more likely in my experience) no one is packing an AOE weapon specifically designed to counter this. I've certainly flown my Type 1 striker against bombers in that situation but when things backfire on me and I die I accept that it's because I wasn't flying the striker variant that might have been more suited to that scenario. I don't blame the bombers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korithras Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I like that he doesn't even want them balanced he just wants them right out of the game lol. I want them out of the game, too. Though I'm not so foolish as to expect it to happen. When early access started, I hated gunships with a passion because they require half the skill needed for a scout or strike fighter. Bombers are even worse, because at least with a gunship you have to aim and shoot at the enemy yourself. Bombers just deploy computer-controlled guns to do all their killing for them because they have no talent for dogfighting, and thus resort to cheap b***h tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama-Eight Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Bombers are even worse, because at least with a gunship you have to aim and shoot at the enemy yourself. Bombers just deploy computer-controlled guns to do all their killing for them because they have no talent for dogfighting, and thus resort to cheap b***h tactics. As has been said before, that's what bad bomber pilots do, dump their mines/drones & then sit inspecting navel lint for the rest of the match. Good bomber pilots will use their lasers & missiles as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToMyMa Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Hint: Mines won't activate if you're flying really close to the rear of the bomber. Use it to your advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammyGStatus Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Hint: Mines won't activate if you're flying really close to the rear of the bomber. Use it to your advantage. Did not know that. Thanks for the tip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgrid Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Hint: Mines won't activate if you're flying really close to the rear of the bomber. Use it to your advantage. Not true. Mines have an activation delay. You can be right up their exhaust ports and the mines will still go off if more than a few seconds have passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Not true. Mines have an activation delay. You can be right up their exhaust ports and the mines will still go off if more than a few seconds have passed. Mines also blow up if you kill them. So if your a scout like me running around with short range weapons, don't shoot the mines! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim_Grey Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Mines also blow up if you kill them. So if your a scout like me running around with short range weapons, don't shoot the mines! Are you sure about that? I would swear I've shot them and not taken damage before, but maybe I was more than their explosion radius away. Things get hard to tell sometimes that close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Are you sure about that? I would swear I've shot them and not taken damage before, but maybe I was more than their explosion radius away. Things get hard to tell sometimes that close. You can shoot them if they are 3km away otherwise don't do it and pray nobody else does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altheran Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 You can shoot them if they are 3km away otherwise don't do it and pray nobody else does. At that point, just pray that the mine didn't detect you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 At that point, just pray that the mine didn't detect you. mine detection is only 1500, but the kill zone is 3km Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeters Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 mine detection is only 1500, but the kill zone is 3km Depends on the mine type. Seismic mines have a 3000m detonation radius. Ion, interdiction and concussion mines are 2000m. They can also add 500m to both values with tier 4 upgrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindariel Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) Bombers can manually detonate their mines by popping a new one and going over the limit. They just need to wait until their enemy is in detonation range. This is the most effective way to clear up a satellite, actually. Edited March 19, 2014 by Sindariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim_Grey Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 You can shoot them if they are 3km away otherwise don't do it and pray nobody else does. From playing last night, they seem to have a "placeholder" you can shoot, but even when you take that out (you'll even get the "mine destroyed" text), if the mine is already moving, you'll still get hit by it. Not sure if that's how it's supposed to work, but that's what was happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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