Remove Bombers from Galactic Starfighter

[Armonddd]

Two words: Ion. Cleave,

 

Bombers HATE gunships, because gunships can take out anything and everything they lay down, quicker than they can lay it down and from outside any plausible retaliation range.

 

I dislike that the counter to stupid, cheesy tactics is even stupider and cheesier tactics.

 

In other words, your team were a pack of lolscouts who couldn't be arsed hopping into their gunships and actually using tactics. Got it.

 

Because everyone who plays GSF was subbed in November, and the only worthwhile tactics are the ones that involve gunships.

[Gerfaut]

Do I get annoyed by bombers? Sure they tick me off some times but honestly what ticks me off more is when I see my team's Type 2 scouts hell bent on trying to kill a bomber instead of taking out the bomber's escorts and when I see Type 1/Type 2 strikers or GS too obsessed with padding their K/D to be bothered to focus on shutting down the enemy bombers which may in turn force the scouts to try to take out bombers.

 

This, so much. When the other team has a lot of bombers, I fly a Pike with EMP/Proton torpedoes/Heavy laser. My build is very effective against bombers but very vulnerable to scouts, particularly T2 scouts. They get behind me and shoot me down while I am trying to get a missile/torpedo lock, which requires me to fly in a straight line for several seconds. Strike fighters and gunships can also be a nuisance.

 

For some reason, everybody obsesses about the bombers and nobody goes after the enemy scouts. I had an 8 v 8 domination game a week or two ago where the enemy started with 7 bombers and a scout. The scout was a lot more trouble to me than all 7 bombers combined. He killed me 3 times and prevented me from getting a single missile lock, until someone finally got him off my back. Same thing last night, in a bomber-heavy game (I think the enemy had 4 or 5, out of 8), I had to ask in chat for help with a scout so I would be able to lock my EMP missile without getting shot down. We ended up winning both of those games, btw, so lots of bombers is no guarantee of a win.

 

My advice would be, if you like playing a scout and find yourself in a game against a lot of bombers, check to see if anybody on your team is playing a Pike/Quell, and fly escort for them to keep the enemy scouts (or strike-fighters, or gunships) off their back. You will get to do some dogfighting, the Pike/Quell will take care of the mines/drones/bombers, and your team will be better off for it.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Gerfaut

[Altheran]

For some reason, everybody obsesses about the bombers and nobody goes after the enemy scouts.

 

That mindset is caused by ground PvP.

 

Usually, when someone is threatening or annoying in your regular MMO PvP, the tactic that people will almost yell at you so that you follow it, is : focus him. People have that tactic nearly engraved in their brains that they can't help but trying to harass ennemies even if their ship isn't adapted to that use.

These people tend to end as fodder against more experienced pilots.

 

To be frank, I think that the state of SWTOR's PvP don't make things better, given how is the healing/DPS metagame in nowadays warzones... But I don't want to rise this kind of polemics here.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Altheran

[Irongut]

Yet the class doesn't focus on flying or ship-to-ship combat, it focuses on pets doing the work!

 

You've obviously never seen me fly my drone carriers. While missile and rep drones are useful I get most of my kills with protons and lasers and it is not unusual to see me dogfighting. With no speed, no agility and no missile lock its seat of the pants stuff.

 

I fly almost exclusively scouts and bombers and in either role there are no ships I want to see nerfed or removed. There are ships that I find tough to counter, mostly gunships in both cases, but I would not change them.

 

GSF has been cleverly balanced to require a blend of ships and a range of tactics to counter the mix of ships and tactics used by your opponents. Messing with that clever balance would be a mistake.

[Dragaunus]

You've obviously never seen me fly my drone carriers. While missile and rep drones are useful I get most of my kills with protons and lasers and it is not unusual to see me dogfighting. With no speed, no agility and no missile lock its seat of the pants stuff.

 

Then I commend you for doing so, but that sadly puts you in the minority of your play style for the Bomber Class.

 

I've very rarely been in a match where a I see a Bomber even fire off its blasters or even a missile (sent from their ship, not a mine). Instead, they fly about, dropping mines, and that is truly it.

[Shoraan]

I don't like bombers in their current form at all. I may be mistaken, but before we had bombers the nodes were taken and retaken more often than in today's games. With the current low respawn times, the escort fighters (scouts and strikes) are back before you can manage to clear the turrets, the minefield and the bomber(s).

 

The Scout 1 with EM pulse is way too squishy and it really doesn't help that the range of the EM pulse is about the same as that of mines, and in order to clear out even two mines (because of the long cooldown only clearing one is a waste of time) you would have to actually fly into explosion range. This could be changed by giving the mines an activation time, so that you have x seconds to blow them up after getting in range (like the PVP flag in ground game when you get too close to an enemy base). Or give the EMP a longer range while reducing it from omni-directional to a cone.

 

The Strike Fighter's EMP missile's lock-on time is too long or the range is too short. If I'm not mistaken it's 7K by default. Considering the range of Railgun drones or the fact that I need a few seconds to get a lock and an actual target (often times behind the satellite) makes it laughable. If they could make the satelite targetable that would help. Or make the EMP missiles fire without lock and detonate on impact like rocket pods. I don't use the EMP missile against fighters anyway, and it shouldn't require three seconds to calculate a straight path against a stationary object. Or... how about removing the lock-on time against stationary objects and keeping it against mobile ones.

 

Gunships may be an option but I hate gunships only slightly less than bombers.

 

TL;DR: they don't need to nerf the bombers if they make the countermeasures more effective. It's just ridiculous if I have to do a kamikaze run in order to clear only half the minefield.

[MisterBlackJack]

Bomber are easy to counter if you know what your doing. If a bomber is flying around a satellite have a scout take out the drones probes and mines and a strike fighter fly low and hit the bomber below. Hell I have destroyed my share of bomber with my flash fire from below simply because they never seem to look down

 

It's all about adapting to changes. Ppl seem to have a hard time with it. The GSF is really well balanced around skill and coordination.

Edited March 11, 2014 by MisterBlackJack

[Camelpockets]

Bomber are easy to counter if you know what your doing. If a bomber is flying around a satellite have a scout take out the drones probes and mines and a strike fighter fly low and hit the bomber below. Hell I have destroyed my share of bomber with my flash fire from below simply because they never seem to look down

 

It's all about adapting to changes. Ppl seem to have a hard time with it. The GSF is really well balanced around skill and coordination.

 

I agree completely. I enjoy prancing around in both my T1 and T2 scouts and lighting up bombers. Yea the EMP Pulse on the T1 Scout is kinda silly, but knowing the layout of defenses BEFORE jumping into a minefield is crucial. Look out for mines (Particularly the Interdiction and Seismic mines) and eliminate the ones that will be a problem (Laser cannons or even Rocket pods are particularly effective here for the additional range). If other drones are set up nearby, say a Railgun drone or two, just take out even one mine, then barrel roll away, then come back for another pass as barrel roll comes off CD. Once most of the mines are taken care of THEN jump in and EMP Pulse to stun the defenses. Then prioritize what needs to die first (Normally for me its Railguns, Sat turrets, then Missle drones). Then pick off what's remaining if you can. If not all is cleared by the time the pulse wears off, then do the same as before, picking things off one by one. It takes patience and a little strategy, but bombers CAN be killed by pretty much everything if you fly right. Though just don't fly into a sat or other section with a mix of bombers and scouts. That will most likely result in a brutal massacre.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Camelpockets

[Vulta]

I mainly fly scout and usually take out bombers without too much trouble, use the missile boat as well but that requires the bomber to be a little slow in the head. Domination is a nightmare at times and the difficulty arises when you get mastered bombers wedged under the satellite spawning repair drones and mines in the themselves diverting your fire power while they turn you into a cloud of dust. The other big issue is when an even semi competent team comes into play and supports the bombers occupying the satellite. Suddenly it doesn't matter how good you are, you will die and usually without accomplishing much, unless you happen to have a good team on your side. B on kuat can be an absolute nightmare once bombers get settled since the point looks like a true minefield with a happy mix of drones. Toss in some GS and suddenly you're forced to either play on their terms aka GS/bomber it up or hope they get a little too lax and take advantage. The problem isn't with individual bombers, or GS it's once they start grouping up that you see the real issues arise. Not to mention it all leads to some extremely boring matches.

 

I wouldn't say remove the bombers, tune them and deal with that los, while at it tweak the GS in regards to that super ion cannon (I don't want to hear from the GS fanboy club, the GS have their issues)

[MisterBlackJack]

I mainly fly scout and usually take out bombers without too much trouble, use the missile boat as well but that requires the bomber to be a little slow in the head. Domination is a nightmare at times and the difficulty arises when you get mastered bombers wedged under the satellite spawning repair drones and mines in the themselves diverting your fire power while they turn you into a cloud of dust. The other big issue is when an even semi competent team comes into play and supports the bombers occupying the satellite. Suddenly it doesn't matter how good you are, you will die and usually without accomplishing much, unless you happen to have a good team on your side. B on kuat can be an absolute nightmare once bombers get settled since the point looks like a true minefield with a happy mix of drones. Toss in some GS and suddenly you're forced to either play on their terms aka GS/bomber it up or hope they get a little too lax and take advantage. The problem isn't with individual bombers, or GS it's once they start grouping up that you see the real issues arise. Not to mention it all leads to some extremely boring matches.

 

I wouldn't say remove the bombers, tune them and deal with that los, while at it tweak the GS in regards to that super ion cannon (I don't want to hear from the GS fanboy club, the GS have their issues)

 

Disagree with this statement. Gunships and bomber don't make things boring but they force you to use more of the map than just sit by the satellite. You have to use your wits and knowledge of the map and use it to gain an advantage over them. LOS, hitting high or low, and quick shots. I mainly rin a flashfire scout and what I say to you is don't be a sitting idle for gs and bombers coordinate with your team and take them out both are easy to counter. It's all about skill

[Vulta]

I rarely sit idle, strange assumption since an idle scout is a dead scout, and I usually prefer to engage and do not care much for defending. GS and Bombers sit idle, they create killzones and hard counter is to do the same thing turning the match into a boring who can field their bombers and GS faster endeavor, it doesn't promote a set of new tactics, and I already know how to approach them but that doesn't mean much when they're wedged in forcing a very specific attack route or when you've got competent hunter packs of bombers and GS on the loose. My skill is fine and I can engage against any craft rather well, doesn't even take much skill against most bombers since they are lumbering things waiting to be blown out of the sky and so long as I don't play stupid and joust a GS their isn't much to them other than watching them run and run till they can get their friends to save them.

 

What I can't do is take on 2 GS and a Bomber (or more/different combo) with no real assistance, which is completely fair don't need god mode but with a group full of new players learning the ropes or people who are just in it for the daily there isn't much to be done. If it's two fully competent teams then it usually turns into a ***** fest of bombers and GS. Plus even with a competent team it doesn't take much for the ion cannon of doom to ruin a persons day, or railgun drones putting holes through you through an asteroid.

[Morgrid]

I rarely sit idle, strange assumption since an idle scout is a dead scout, and I usually prefer to engage and do not care much for defending. GS and Bombers sit idle, they create killzones and hard counter is to do the same thing turning the match into a boring who can field their bombers and GS faster endeavor, it doesn't promote a set of new tactics, and I already know how to approach them but that doesn't mean much when they're wedged in forcing a very specific attack route or when you've got competent hunter packs of bombers and GS on the loose. My skill is fine and I can engage against any craft rather well, doesn't even take much skill against most bombers since they are lumbering things waiting to be blown out of the sky and so long as I don't play stupid and joust a GS their isn't much to them other than watching them run and run till they can get their friends to save them.

 

What I can't do is take on 2 GS and a Bomber (or more/different combo) with no real assistance, which is completely fair don't need god mode but with a group full of new players learning the ropes or people who are just in it for the daily there isn't much to be done. If it's two fully competent teams then it usually turns into a ***** fest of bombers and GS. Plus even with a competent team it doesn't take much for the ion cannon of doom to ruin a persons day, or railgun drones putting holes through you through an asteroid.

 

Bad bombers sit and idle.

 

Good bombers get out there and mix it up. You can deny entry into a larger area by adding your heavy lasers to the mix.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Morgrid
I speel gewd

[TRFWesVos]

Easy fix.

 

In all Star Wars lore, the bomber is a big, lumbering craft with little to no laser defense but the ability to drop stuff. Medium defenses (shields and hull) keep it from getting blown up, but it can't do much offensively against other ships. It could become the buffer/healer of GSF. Take away the bomber's ability to boost, it's ability to evade missiles, and it's heavy lasers, and you've got the typical Star Wars bomber.

[Altheran]

Take away the bomber's [...] ability to evade missiles

 

They already can't.

[TRFWesVos]

Ah. As you can tell, I'm not a bomber pilot then.

 

Still, removing their boost and heavy lasers would go a long way towards fixing them. They're hard to kill and their drops are good (though missile drones probably should get nerfed a bit), but they'd be sitting ducks.

[Bleeters]

Still, removing their boost and heavy lasers would go a long way towards fixing them.

Heavy lasers I wouldn't mind them losing (though spent requesition ought to be refunded in that case), but I don't think you appreciate how slowly bombers move on standard thrusters.

[TRFWesVos]

Oh, I appreciate it. I just spent an entire game getting owned by Large on Ebon Hawk. Some of that was his piloting - I acknowledge his excellence - and some of it was his support (props to Iktovian in particular), but he was also able to keep boosting away right after laying mines, so we couldn't follow him, then by the time we caught up, he'd either blast us with lasers or do the whole thing again. It was a bit frustrating, to say the least. Edited March 12, 2014 by TRFWesVos

[Zharik]

Oh, I appreciate it. I just spent an entire game getting owned by Large on Ebon Hawk. Some of that was his piloting - I acknowledge his excellence - and some of it was his support (props to Iktovian in particular), but he was also able to keep boosting away right after laying mines, so we couldn't follow him, then by the time we caught up, he'd either blast us with lasers or do the whole thing again. It was a bit frustrating, to say the least.

 

So, what were you flying? A type 2 scout perhaps?

 

Your brief description includes acknowledgements to Large's skill and help. So a better "team" frustrated you? Is this not a normal reaction? (meaning it wasn't that he was using a bomber, per se)

[Armonddd]

So, what were you flying? A type 2 scout perhaps?

 

What scout gets outrun by bombers ever?

[TRFWesVos]

A type 1 striker, actually. And my intention is not to say that bombers should get banned, just as before 2.6 I didn't argue that gunships should get banned. But I do think there is a balance issue, and perhaps a matching issue, that needs to be addressed.

 

Had it just been that he was better, I'd tip my cap to him and wait for revenge (I did actually manage to corner him once and blast him out of space). But the boosting / bomb laying combo was the bigger problem for me.

 

Note that this is not meant to disparage Large - he's a good pilot no matter what he flies, from what I can tell. And the game currently let's him do what he did, so I'll be trying to find a way to beat it for now. But the fact that it can happen may be an issue.

 

That said, I'll also note that the striker is still in the upgrading stage, since I'm running a new character. My Pub toon, though, with a maxed out Striker I, had a similar problem with an Imp bomber.

 

And not to brag, but generally, all/most upgrading being equal, I'm not a half-bad pilot. I'm usually in the top 25% of pilots in requisition if a domination map or kills/assists in death matches.

Edited March 12, 2014 by TRFWesVos

[adventurethis]

bombers aren't overpowered, but for the sake of argument..you could always give them a limited number of drones/mines..since every class that has missiles etc has a finite amount

[Llama-Eight]

Still, removing their boost and heavy lasers would go a long way towards fixing them. They're hard to kill and their drops are good (though missile drones probably should get nerfed a bit), but they'd be sitting ducks.

 

But if you removed the heavy lasers, they wouldn't be able to dogfight as well (& I spend a fair bit of my time using blasters/protons, any bomber pilot that just sits in their mines/drones is only using 1/2 of their weapons). This would push bomber pilots further towards camping a node & doing nothing apart from dropping mines/drones. Given that they already don't have barrel roll, I don't see why they should be made even slower by removing their boost, that drains energy pretty quickly & given their speed & maneuverability, they are sitting ducks as it is.

[TRFWesVos]

As I said, I'm not a bomber pilot, but IMO camping nodes is exactly what a bomber should be doing, at least until we get a capital ship strike mode. Bombers are not supposed to be dogfighters. That's for scouts and, depending on the loadout, strikers. Give bombers the ability to dogfight and you've removed their one major limitation. Will they be as fun to play? Maybe, maybe not. Is a primary healer/buffer fun to play? It's the same principle.

 

Take the TIE bomber from the movies and the EU. Slow, low shields - a sitting duck for an X-wing (example of a striker). A dupe is not going to go toe to toe with an X-wing piloted by a halfway-competent pilot and live to tell about it. But they were the bane of ground targets and capital ships. That comparison should hold true in this game as well. Each ship should have its own strengths and limitations. The strike is a jack-of-all-trades, but master of none, depending on its loadout. The scout is fast but has only light weapons and dies in a few hits. The gunship is a sniper, but it's not (or at least not supposed to be) a dogfighter. The bomber is the capital ship destroyer, though in current modes I'd make it the buffer/healer. That gives each ship a unique role in combat, which I think is desirable.

[Zharik]

What scout gets outrun by bombers ever?

 

Per his description, he was outmaneuvered (by tactics) not outrun... He could not follow because of the mines.

[Zharik]

The bomber is the capital ship destroyer, though in current modes I'd make it the buffer/healer.

 

Would you feel better if they renamed it a minelayer? (cause that is what they are, they don't "bomb" anything)