Why do people care so much about subscription numbers?

[TUXs]

Ah, "specialized skills." Got it. Work hard for them tips!

This is just rude...well below your standards.

[NoFishing]

A "company" doesn't make decisions. A "person" makes decisions. If this person is an idiot, they will make bad decisions. The purpose of my example was to show that companies do hire idiots and give them decision-making powers.

 

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.

- Agent K

[jstankaroslo]

My point is based on rational thinking. Obviously people make irrational decisions (or decisions based on emotion) but a rational thinker makes rational decisions. Rational decisions are made with data (or best available data). Its like a science.

 

Do you now know any of this? Where do I have to start?

 

This isn't real world -it is your imaginary perfect world. In real life we have bankrupts, we have failed projects, bad decisions and even the crisis. Why? Because companies and people who run them not always make the right decisions, they're often mistaken. It could have happened to Lehman Brothers, is it also possible that not all decisions EA makes are the good ones?

 

There is safe, and there is visionary. When you play safe, like SWTOR team does at the moment, you get satisfying but medicore results. It takes someone with vision (think Steve Jobs for example) to really have success. It takes someone who is willing to risk to create some really great products.

 

I wish SWTOR would continue to be the great product. But what I see now is: they play it safe. Example: they could hire more people to development team, invest in content. As for now I fear that our game will be slowly falling to second rate category -less and less players will be excited of SWTOR

As a player, sure, I wish the game gave profit as it means they don't pull the plug. But, as a player, I don't care how high profit they get (as long as they don't lose) -I care for good content.

We don't know what bussiness model there is in EA for SWTOR. It could even be short term, meanning the're done investng in this product, and let it die out slowly, simultanously preparing "new exciting" games for us to buy. It may be good for the company, it ain't good for the players that got attached to their SWTOR charcters and world. What I mean is: not always what is good for company is good for its customers in the short run.

 

Sure, I can move to some other game once I stop to have fun here. This is a plausible bussiness model. Problem is: SWTOR was designed in such a manner, that you got attached to your characters and legacy (55 levels of gameplay, for me easily over 2 month to finish one class story), and people wish they wouldn't have to abandon this world and its inhabitants.

New management changed direction of this game, turned story based MMORPG into classical MMO. It brought them money, but I wish they wouldn't abandon the original concepts completely.

Edited February 27, 2014 by jstankaroslo

[Arkerus]

This isn't real world -it is your imaginary perfect world. In real life we have bankrupts, we have failed projects, bad decisions and even the crisis. Why? Because companies and people who run them not always make the right decisions, they're often mistaken. It could have happened to Lehman Brothers, is it also possible that not all decisions EA makes are the good ones?

 

There is safe, and there is visionary. When you play safe, like SWTOR team does at the moment, you get satisfying but medicore results. It takes someone with vision (think Steve Jobs for example) to really have success. It takes someone who is willing to risk to create some really great products.

 

I wish SWTOR would continue to be the great product. But what I see now is: they play it safe. Example: they could hire more people to development team, invest in content. As for now I fear that our game will be slowly falling to second rate category -less and less players will be excited of SWTOR

As a player, sure, I wish the game gave profit as it means they don't pull the plug. But, as a player, I don't care how high profit they get (as long as they don't lose) -I care for good content.

We don't know what bussiness model there is in EA for SWTOR. It could even be short term, meanning the're done investng in this product, and let it die out slowly, simultanously preparing "new exciting" games for us to buy. It may be good for the company, it ain't good for the players that got attached to their SWTOR charcters and world. What I mean is: not always what is good for company is good for its customers in the short run.

 

Sure, I can move to some other game once I stop to have fun here. This is a plausible bussiness model. Problem is: SWTOR was designed in such a manner, that you got attached to your characters and legacy (55 levels of gameplay, for me easily over 2 month to finish one class story), and people wish they wouldn't have to abandon this world and its inhabitants.

New management changed direction of this game, turned story based MMORPG into classical MMO. It brought them money, but I wish they wouldn't abandon the original concepts completely.

 

Your little rant has little to do with the point I was making.

 

And trust me when I say Steve Jobs NEVER produce a product that was risky beyond reason. All investment takes risk, it just depends on how much you want to endure. Some companies are more risk adverse than others. Risk is already factored into most investment and financial decisions.

 

People make bad decisions...in hindsight.

 

And unless you can present some credentials to discredit the last 200 years of classical business theory...you can rant all you want but it means nothing.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Arkerus

[TravelersWay]

Huh...think they used those same criteria when they developed GSF? I only know 3 guys (myself included) who actually LIKE GSF.

 

Makes me wonder is all.

I like it, and I'm not really a PvPer. The problem SWTOR has is that there are several key components it has that appeal to a vastly different audience. To try to pick one aspect out and ask if it will increase subs or not is disingenuous. I play the game for the leveling and the story aspect it has. I personally don't care if they never add new Ops or PvP in the game ever. I know people who have quit the game because they aren't going to focus on class stories any more. No amount of added content except for new class stories are going to bring those people back. The same can be said for end game players and PvPers. So it's not like we can say that BW needs to add "A" in order to increase subs and have a good ROI. It is more complex than that and in order to really satisfy the playerbas, they need to add in quality content of each type. That takes time to do. I am having fun now, and don't see that changing any time soon, so whether we ever get new class stories at this point would be sad for me, but ultimately irrelevant because the content that is there is enough to keep me occupied until the game shuts down, even if (actually when) that is a decade from now.

 

Yes. Now you get it. When "businessmen" guess right, they are geniuses. When they are wrong, they move the target to where they actually hit and suddenly are geniuses again.

 

And is that a problem? To me, it simply means they are smart enough to be able to see that the target needs to be moved and smart enough to actually move it to turn failure into success. America was pretty much built on that concept.

 

They pay me good money to do a job. Instead, I've decided to play hooky and waste my time on a forum while I pretend to be working by manipulating their multi-million dollar employee time management software. I might even claim overtime just for fun. Who's the genius now?

 

I have you now!

 

There is safe, and there is visionary. When you play safe, like SWTOR team does at the moment, you get satisfying but medicore results. It takes someone with vision (think Steve Jobs for example) to really have success. It takes someone who is willing to risk to create some really great products.

 

And generally speaking - who are the visionaries and who are the ones who usually play it safe? The visionaries are usually the smaller guy with little or nothing to loose and so they can afford to take that risk. The ones who play it safe are the ones with a lot to loose and cannot afford to take that risk. Be glad that they don't because we can see what happens when the big guys loose a lot - it ends up hurting all the little guys in the end as well.

 

Here we have the problem of the MMO in a nutshell, and the reason why so many have "failed" since WoW. Like I mentioned before, the MMO community can't agree on what it wants - people complain about every game that comes out playing it safe and being a WoW clone. Yet, when something does come out and push the boundaries of what has been done before, people complain and wish it was more like WoW.

 

Personally speaking, I don't need a new game to be the Mona Lisa. I don't need a new game to be different and visionary. I just need to have fun playing it. I don't care if it clones WoW down to the pixel. If it brings me enough entertainment to spend money on it, then that's all I want and that's all I ask. You think SWTOR is mediocre. I think it's one of the best games I have ever played (second only to the original GW), and continue to enjoy playing and talking about it as much as I can. Ultimately the true visionaries are the ones who see a lack of something, have the desire for something better, then go out and do it themselves. If you want visionary then you need to go out and do it - don't expect someone else to do it for you.

 

Oh, and Steve Jobs? He was brilliant at moving the target. Actually, what he was brilliant at was making the target, and then hyping it up so much that he convinced people that their lives would be meaningless unless they had the target, even if the target isn't really all that useful, necessary, or in a working order at release.

Edited February 27, 2014 by TravelersWay

[jstankaroslo]

Your little rant has little to do with the point I was making.

 

And trust me when I say Steve Jobs NEVER produce a product that was risky beyond reason. All investment takes risk, it just depends on how much you want to endure. Some companies are more risk adverse than others. Risk is already factored into most investment and financial decisions.

 

People make bad decisions...in hindsight.

 

And unless you can present some credentials to discredit the last 200 years of classical business theory...you can rant all you want but it means nothing.

 

Why should I trust you on anything? You are just random guy from the internet. I remember you once claimed that you are a nice person, where obviously you're not. You claim you have some experience in bussiness and decision making, while based on what you write -you obviously have none. I suspect you're a teenager on dad's computer writing those things, as you can't even comprehend things you read and try to discuss. Do you even understand what my point was, or you lost it on the second line of text?

I'll help you: write what's your point on this thread, what it means to the game itself and what it means for this discussion. Otherwise your posts are just annoying buzz, nothing more

[jstankaroslo]

 

 

You think SWTOR is mediocre. I think it's one of the best games I have ever played (second only to the original GW), and continue to enjoy playing and talking about it as much as I can.

 

Hey, I think it is a great game too!

It's taken medicore direction only recently (summer 2013?) Up until Makeb it was great. And I love little things they changed from the original concept, like adaptive armors, even CM.

My impression is that they arent doing anything ambitious as right now and in near future -like 2014. So it is gonna be a great game being developed in medicore way. Maybe eventually SWTOR will turn into medicore game, with present developing plans that is going to happen in my opinion.

[Arkerus]

Why should I trust you on anything? You are just random guy from the internet. I remember you once claimed that you are a nice person, where obviously you're not. You claim you have some experience in bussiness and decision making, while based on what you write -you obviously have none. I suspect you're a teenager on dad's computer writing those things, as you can't even comprehend things you read and try to discuss. Do you even understand what my point was, or you lost it on the second line of text?

I'll help you: write what's your point on this thread, what it means to the game itself and what it means for this discussion. Otherwise your posts are just annoying buzz, nothing more

 

I am some random guy on the internet. Whether you want to believe my credentials or not is up to you. I honestly don't care. Just so you understand where I am coming from...

 

I work for one of the biggest corporations in the world (top 5). I am involved in day to to day strategic planning for our business unit. I manage a budget of several million dollars. My most recent accomplishment includes the roll-out and standup of the manufacturing systems in a new manufacturing/assembly plant right here in my home state.

I have an associate degree in plastics engineering, a bachelors of Management Information Systems and a masters in BA.

 

I quite literally make decisions involving future projects and investments every. single. day.

I live and breathe this. Decision making is literally my job. I get paid to make decisions and take risks.

 

You can call me names, call me a big meanie, or choose not to believe anything I say. It really doesn't affect me. If you choose to not believe, or to remain ignorant of how the real world works, that's your own personal problem.

 

My point (in this thread) was to explain to the group how decision making (aka new features, expansions) works in the real world.

 

You can deal with it. You'll be ok.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Arkerus

[TUXs]

I am some random guy on the internet. Whether you want to believe my credentials or not is up to you. I honestly don't care. Just so you understand where I am coming from...

 

I work for one of the biggest corporations in the world (top 5). I am involved in day to to day strategic planning for our business unit. I manage a budget of several million dollars. My most recent accomplishment includes the roll-out and standup of the manufacturing systems in a new manufacturing/assembly plant right here in my home state.

I have an associates degree in plastics engineering, a bachelors in Management Information Systems and a masters in BA.

 

I quite literally make decisions involving future projects and investments every. single. day.

I live and breathe this. Decision making is literally my job. I get paid to make decisions and take risks.

 

You can call me names, call me a big meany, or choose not to believe anything. It really doesn't affect me. If you choose to not believe, or to remain ignorant of how the real world works, that's your own personal problem.

 

My point, this entire time, was to explain to the group how decision making (aka new features, expansions) works in the real world.

 

You can deal with it. You'll be ok.

Nobody here thinks decisions are made in seconds or on some whim by Eric as he's browsing the forums. I think the majority of us understand that there's a process involved for implementing change.

 

The people you're arguing with are arguing that the pace of content is too slow (mostly, at least that's what I'm reading). Your argument seems to be "change takes time and there's a process...."...which I don't think any of us disagree with.

 

So...what exactly is your point with this? That change has a process? This isn't a proposal to the board Arkerus, it's the customers commenting that the direction and speed the game is currently going sucks. They have every right to complain...the game has stagnated for many. They're allowed to voice their comments here.

Edited February 27, 2014 by TUXs

[hadoken]

Nobody here thinks decisions are made in seconds or on some whim by Eric as he's browsing the forums. I think the majority of us understand that there's a process involved for implementing change.

 

The people you're arguing with are arguing that the pace of content is too slow (mostly, at least that's what I'm reading). Your argument seems to be "change takes time and there's a process...."...which I don't think any of us disagree with.

 

So...what exactly is your point with this? That change has a process? This isn't a proposal to the board Arkerus, it's the customers commenting that the direction and speed the game is currently going sucks. They have every right to complain...the game has stagnated for many. They're allowed to voice their comments here.

 

He seems to be implying that EA/BioWare is run the way his own business is run and thus (in his opinion) the best way possible. I mean that's the typical response to complaints on these forums - your compliant isn't valid! (it's that or 'just quit')

[TravelersWay]

Hey, I think it is a great game too!

It's taken medicore direction only recently (summer 2013?) Up until Makeb it was great. And I love little things they changed from the original concept, like adaptive armors, even CM.

My impression is that they arent doing anything ambitious as right now and in near future -like 2014. So it is gonna be a great game being developed in medicore way. Maybe eventually SWTOR will turn into medicore game, with present developing plans that is going to happen in my opinion.

 

Well, see that's where the difference in personal preferences comes into play. I could say the game is taking a mediocre direction as well since we are not getting extensions on any of the class stories. I could say that even if they were planning on making a new Ops and new PvP map/mechanic every single week. I don't, however, because I don't play games for what they may or may not add in the future. I play them for the content they have at that point in time. That's why I am continually going back and playing my favorite games of old - regardless of how old they may be and despite the fact that they have added nothing new since release, decades ago. SWTOR is not mediocre to me now, and will not be mediocre to me 10 years from now (regardless of whatever may be in this road map and any future road maps that may come), because they content the game has now is more than enough to sustain my enjoyability of it for that time and longer.

 

And hence when people complain that we are getting CM updates at a rate that is faster or more abundant than "normal" content, I will call them out on it. CM updates are the five minute ham sandwich I make for lunch, consume quickly to quash my hunger, and don't think about afterwards. "Content" updates are the meatloaf I eat for dinner which takes time, planning, and preparation to make properly. To think that the meatloaf can be done as quickly as the ham sandwich is completely asinine. No matter how fast content is released in this game, there will be people who are disatisfied with that pace or the quality of the content. That is why there is no "MMO standard" for anything in MMOs because each standard is different for each MMO based upon their game and organization. In the end, yes it does come down to the fact that if the pace of content is the most important to you, then you need to find a game that meets the pace that you desire.

Edited February 27, 2014 by TravelersWay

[AlienEyeTX]

Your little rant has little to do with the point I was making.

 

And trust me when I say Steve Jobs NEVER produce a product that was risky beyond reason. All investment takes risk, it just depends on how much you want to endure. Some companies are more risk adverse than others. Risk is already factored into most investment and financial decisions.

 

People make bad decisions...in hindsight.

 

And unless you can present some credentials to discredit the last 200 years of classical business theory...you can rant all you want but it means nothing.

 

Right... and Steve Jobs never got fired from his own company.

 

Nothing that changed the world was seen as a small risk when it was introduced.

[Arkerus]

Nobody here thinks decisions are made in seconds or on some whim by Eric as he's browsing the forums. I think the majority of us understand that there's a process involved for implementing change.

 

The people you're arguing with are arguing that the pace of content is too slow (mostly, at least that's what I'm reading). Your argument seems to be "change takes time and there's a process...."...which I don't think any of us disagree with.

 

So...what exactly is your point with this? That change has a process? This isn't a proposal to the board Arkerus, it's the customers commenting that the direction and speed the game is currently going sucks. They have every right to complain...the game has stagnated for many. They're allowed to voice their comments here.

 

I think if you look back on this thread you will see a clear example of people saying (and I am paraphrasing):

 

"WHY DOESN'T BIOWARE DO X,Y,Z or release content faster/hire more people/do what I want." (And yes, it has spun a bit off course. The OP asked about sub numbers.)

 

Then you will see very clear examples of myself, and others, explaining how decisions are made and WHY you don't what you want/get it as fast as you want/don't get magic flying dragons/etc.

 

I am not saying people can't say "I want content faster". I have many of my own personal complaints about features in this game (or lack of). When people, like CK (for example) make blanket statements that have nothing to do with how real decisions are made, I correct them.

 

If you don't like it, or want me to change my approach, then I am sorry, but that's not going to happen.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Arkerus

[Arkerus]

Right... and Steve Jobs never got fired from his own company.

 

Nothing that changed the world was seen as a small risk when it was introduced.

 

What? Some risks are big and small. That has nothing to do with my point. I am simply explaining the process of decision making. I deal with large and small risk everyday.

 

I don't think you and I disagree. "Risky beoind reason" does not mean "always a safe decision." Risky beyond reason would be someone saying "yes" to a decision that has little to zero chance of working (or good for the business).

 

People make risky decisions every day because the benefit has a calculated value of being greater than the risk. When you walk down the street or drive a car, its a calculated decision you just made.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Arkerus

[TUXs]

He seems to be implying that EA/BioWare is run the way his own business is run and thus (in his opinion) the best way possible. I mean that's the typical response to complaints on these forums - your compliant isn't valid! (it's that or 'just quit')

That's what I mean, even if EA is run EXACTLY like his company...what does that have to do with how the customers are feeling?

 

He obviously works in the energy field as Walmart is the only non-energy company in the top 5 globally, which is absolutely NOTHING like working in the entertainment industry. EA is in the business of ENTERTAINING! When the entertainment they sell starts to become stale, they need to make changes. EA's customers are telling them EXACTLY what the problem is...they need to listen or lose more subscribers. They've already proven they'll make adjustments with the conversion to F2P, but they seem content to keep to their 1 per year cycle of Ops, a WZ and a new daily area...some of their customers are saying that that's not enough.

[TUXs]

I think if you look back on this thread you will see a clear example of people saying (and I am paraphrasing):

 

"WHY DOESN'T BIOWARE DO X,Y,Z or release content faster/hire more people/do what I want." (And yes, it has spun a bit off course. The OP asked about sub numbers.)

 

Then you will see very clear examples of myself, and others, explaining how decisions are made and WHY you don't what you want/get it as fast as you want/don't get magic flying dragons/etc.

 

I am not saying people can't say "I want content faster". I have many of my own personal complaints about features in this game (or lack of). When people, like CK (for example) make blanket statements that have nothing to do with how real decisions are made, I correct them.

 

If you don't like it, or want me to change my approach, then I am sorry, but that's not going to happen.

I have no problem with your approach Arkerus. I guess I just don't understand why you continue to say the exact same things over and over again...you're right...change takes time...but change CAN and DOES happen...faster here than in your industry I assume. Yes, change costs money...we all realize that. But the pace at which EA is moving seems to be costing them customers, which are the entire source of their $.

 

Would it cost them more to move quicker? Almost certainly...but the pace they're at is a pace of destruction imo.

Edited February 27, 2014 by TUXs

[Infernixx]

I have no problem with your approach Arkerus. I guess I just don't understand why you continue to say the exact same things over and over again...you're right...change takes time...but change CAN and DOES happen...faster here than in your industry I assume. Yes, change costs money...we all realize that. But the pace at which EA is moving seems to be costing them customers, which are the entire source of their $.

 

Would it cost them more to move quicker? Almost certainly...but the pace they're at is a pace of destruction imo.

 

The game will never ever produce content faster than the players can consume it. With that firmly in mind, your best option is to create content that will last long enough to keep your players engaged while you develop more content.

 

So, while it's awesome that players feel the need to post stuff to the forums about how they think content should be released faster, there's an old saying that my grandfather liked to throw at me when I whined about how slow he was going with something:

 

"Fast, quality and cheap, you can only have two of these, you can't have all three."

[hadoken]

"Fast, quality and cheap, you can only have two of these, you can't have all three."

 

Well they're making plenty of money off the CM, so why can't we have the first two?

[Infernixx]

Well they're making plenty of money off the CM, so why can't we have the first two?

 

Because it's never as simple as 'they make plenty of money, gimme what I want!'

[hadoken]

Because it's never as simple as 'they make plenty of money, gimme what I want!'

 

Ah is this the point where you start waxing about ROIs and how you're in a top 5 company and that what we have is the best it can possibly be and to just suck it up?

 

I think I've heard that someplace before!

[Infernixx]

Ah is this the point where you start waxing about ROIs and how you're in a top 5 company and that what we have is the best it can possibly be and to just suck it up?

 

I think I've heard that someplace before!

 

No, this is the point where I remind you, yet again, that the developers cannot and will never be able to produce content fast enough to suit everyone. Nor should they try. Quality is paramount, not speed.

[TUXs]

The game will never ever produce content faster than the players can consume it. With that firmly in mind, your best option is to create content that will last long enough to keep your players engaged while you develop more content.

 

So, while it's awesome that players feel the need to post stuff to the forums about how they think content should be released faster, there's an old saying that my grandfather liked to throw at me when I whined about how slow he was going with something:

 

"Fast, quality and cheap, you can only have two of these, you can't have all three."

I agree...they'll never satisfy some players...but they're completely failing even casuals right now Infernixx.

 

And since quality is something seldom associated with the content they release, I'll accept FAST and CHEAP.

[Arkerus]

I have no problem with your approach Arkerus. I guess I just don't understand why you continue to say the exact same things over and over again...you're right...change takes time...but change CAN and DOES happen...faster here than in your industry I assume. Yes, change costs money...we all realize that. But the pace at which EA is moving seems to be costing them customers, which are the entire source of their $.

 

Would it cost them more to move quicker? Almost certainly...but the pace they're at is a pace of destruction imo.

 

To be honest, I am not defending EA (or even Bioware). If they choose to make decisions that impact their bottom line (+ or -) that is their decision to make. People often accuse me of being a glorious defender or fan boy but I have some of hte same complaints others do. I just understand how many of those decisions came to be (practically speaking) and I know what is realistic to ask for and what is not.

 

What I try to steer people away from are blanket, sweeping statements about development and decisions that don't make any sense and don't reflect the way the real world works.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Arkerus

[Infernixx]

I agree...they'll never satisfy some players...but they're completely failing even casuals right now Infernixx.

 

And since quality is something seldom associated with the content they release, I'll accept FAST and CHEAP.

 

It's amazing how people take what 'they' personally see and simply assume that's what defines the entirety.

 

In other words, you speak for yourself and only yourself. Unless you have a few hundred thousand players huddled around you and your computer, telling you what to type.

 

Also, I'm glad that they focus on quality. But then I'm not an instant-gratification sort, either.

[TUXs]

Quality is paramount, not speed.

Huh...how long was Soa bugged after launch? That was literally close to a year. I don't believe "quality" is as important as you think it is to these guys. I'm not suggesting they don't try, just that I don't think it holds them back much.