Guard and tanks in pvp

[ByeToWoW]

 

As someone pointed out the OP earlier, it is an issue to understand the mechanics of the Guarding ability and exploit its weakness. The OP needs to roll and play a tank to appreciate just how difficult it is to play a tank instead of just being a DPSing war hero. Tanking is a thankless job and only for those that don't need to be in the limelight or top the charts in damage/kills.

 

!!!!!

 

In any pvp I do in SWTOR, I always sort the end of match leader board by protection done. If any tanks (or DPS) did a significant job, they get my first choice at a vote. Every match. If they were a tank and had little protection... then no vote for them. They were probably the set-it-and-forget-it type.

 

Next comes top heals if there were no one worthy in the protection department.

 

Next comes anyone that I noticed doing a good job doing the objectives.

 

lastly... if all else fails... top DPS for the vote.

[ByeToWoW]

Also remove selfheals from dps specs. If you are not a healer, you shouldnt be able to heal

 

No.

 

Self heals are fine.

 

This allows differing depths of play from different playstyles. Some might call this... Hybrid.

 

If DPS heals are too strong, from a Complete-Toolkit perspective, then let them keep the heals, but reduce their damage reduction and/or reduction cooldowns. If that won't fly, then the DPS that do not have heals should get more damage reduction and/or more (other) utility. Notice I didn't imply CC. Utility similar in scope to Sniper/Slinger AoE damage shield.

[Kooziejr]

I stopped commenting on threads because of the stupid people who write stuff but this is the most hilarious thread ever. L2p bads complaining cause they cant tunnel and dont know how to swap targets....derppppp **** doesnt die instantly when good players are on the other team and some people love tanking. Nothing is going to change with the guard system....if u take the game so seriously get into voice chat and call target swaps and see people blow up. Plz l2p seriously no more qq about guard its just pathetic...

[Pistols]

Guard is fine, thread is bad, as well as some other peoples replies about it.

 

Good God....just stop.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Pistols

[CrazyOldMystic]

Umm op my guess is you have seen some posts on the forums on stance switching and then made this thread. If you actually played a tank you would know how bad this thread is. Guard is fine. If someone switches stances and uses guard without the talent tree or health to back it up, they are going to die so fast, that they will be dead before they know what happened. Especially if they put the guard on the proper class.

[choigreywolf]

I agree with this. Taunts should be tied into the tank stance like the shield is. If tank stance is not active, then the taunts should be greyed out. Taunting and Shielding is a specialty for tanks, not for DPSers.

 

QQing about the effectiveness of the tank's ability to shield and defend another is ludicrous. Tanks (non-hybrid) do the least amount of DPS. They are there to soak up damage and defend team members. Requesting them to nerf their sole purpose is akin to asking for tanks to be removed from the game. They nerf their shielding and you turn the tank into useless piece of crap.

 

As someone pointed out the OP earlier, it is an issue to understand the mechanics of the Guarding ability and exploit its weakness. The OP needs to roll and play a tank to appreciate just how difficult it is to play a tank instead of just being a DPSing war hero. Tanking is a thankless job and only for those that don't need to be in the limelight or top the charts in damage/kills.

 

Coming from a tank thank you you hit the nail right on the head. Its easy to dps and heal but as a tank I dont always have my guard on my healer, the reason why is b/c as a tank I am designed to soak up alot of dmg that includes say the sent that is currently getting focused I switch guard on him and aoe taunt whoever is on him. I dont need to just worry about killing or anything its helping and essisting my teammates. Love being the tank but after being healls and dps id have to say it is one of the most in depth roles to play I am contently looking for who ever is in need of help.

 

Play a tank op and emagine the anoyence if your guard had a cd or guard and taunts wouldnt stack. What folks forget is that guard acctually is a hinderence to the tanks hps too. Anyhoo there arent alot of us actual tanks in pvp anyway so I dont seeguard getting nerfed nor our taunts.

[Ghost_Spectre]

If you cant handle people showing you, how unthought your ideas actually are, this isnt the place for you.

 

Edit: Ahaha, just realised, you were also the guy, that wanted 1 minute of stun immunity, after you use your breaker. Guess thats enough proof to show, that you have no clue about this games (whether they are actually good or bad) PvP mechanics.

 

I have more of a grasp on game mechanics than you'll every understand or know. I'll leave your own little imaginary world where you believe you are the know all to be all.

[madtycoon]

Really, this isn't WoW. I hear what you are saying, but I feel that Guard does the exact opposite. Guard increases the dynamic of PvP by bringing in a third dimension.

 

Is Guard perfect? Eh... I think it is not broken enough to warrant spending time and resources to change it when there are elements of PvP that are vastly in more need of Developer attention.

 

Game cloned most of its mechanics from WoW. Not saying this is a bad thing. Not saying WoW didn't copy from others.

 

Blizzard would never implement 4v4 arenas and make that the only option. They would also never make tanks essential for teams to survive. Even with the player base they have, forcing teams to fill 3 roles to compete would slow down activity. 3v3 makes more sense in so many ways, but the developers of this game could never implement 3v3, because of tanks. tank/healer/dps mirrors would go on for ages with guard in its current form.

 

3v3 would also make solo queue more playable for all classes across the board. It would give individual players more control over the outcome of a match. Peeling becomes more beneficial when there are only 2-3 dps zerging your teammate rather than four. Especially if they upped damage reduction from expertise.

 

2v2 would also help activity. Players could build synergy with others easier in 2v2. Players could learn the game. Obviously can't introduce 2v2 with guard. Tank/healer teams. Slit my wrists now.

 

I watched the section of the video you pointed out. I am going to disagree here too. I think the fact the game lasted the full time limit for both rounds is awesome. It showcased two tanks that were incredibly good at what they do; Guard. It also was very apparent that both the team-wide damage outputs, although enough to take someone down, was never lined up appropriately within a good CC chain to take someone down. This video does not showcase an overpowered imbalance of the Guard mechanic, it showcases what good guarding can do when your team lacks focus fire; you don't drop anyone.

 

I didn't link the video to prove that guard is broken. I mean I'm pretty sure that was a solo queue, so the teams weren't on skype and couldn't really cc the tank and burst the non guarded target at the same time. My point with the video is that there is no movement whatsoever. The guard mechanic and tanks in their current form hurts movement, kiting and positioning. It takes those aspects out of pvp.

 

Kiting, moving and using the map becomes less important to non-existant when guard comes into play, because you are making it harder for your tank to keep you guarded on a swap if you don't just group up the entire time. It also means your tank can't assist dps the kill target if you're sitting at max range or trying to line of sight.

 

Tanks that Guard well vs tanks that do not... night and day difference in the outcomes of games.

 

Think of Guard like a goalie in Hockey or Soccer (Football). A good one can wreck the other team by preventing scores. But, if the other team lacks the ability to score on it's own, regardless of goalie-power, it can appear that the goalie is what won it, when it was the other team's inabilities that caused them to lose.

 

I agree, but guarding people is not very difficult. There is no cooldown to watch or duration. There is no proc or rotation. You just have to be aware enough to realize who is getting attacked and stand in range. Not getting hit by smash while guarding and other similar things does make a difference, but switching guard itself is very simple (especially for how powerful it is). Single target taunting at max effectiveness has a much higher skill ceiling with less of a reward.

 

Countering guard with swaps and CC is harder and requires coordination yes, but no more coordination than using CC and swaps to get kills if they introduced 3v3 with a changed guard mechanic. Besides, I highly doubt that most kills come from CC chains on a tank with a swap in the current game and as gear levels progress, tunneling the tank would just become easier and easier.

 

Guard also lowers the skill required to play the game once you play with a tank that swaps guard well, because players can just stand there and face tank the incoming damage. When you take away kiting and positioning, you take away a big part of the skill cap. You also take away from the importance of non tank peeling.

 

Guard also hurts the majority of warzones, because the high burst and aoe damage characters can do is meant to counter guard. You need to have the potential of taking a large chunk of your target's health away in a matter of seconds to get kills in the small windows that a tank is crowd controlled. Fine when teams have tanks to reallocate the incoming damage, but the vast majority of warzones there are not going to be tanks running around guard swapping. The damage however is still there. Being killed or killing things in a matter of seconds isn't fun at all. Plus, the more tanks you have the less effective they become.

 

Not saying they should change guard anytime soon, but next expansion they should revisit tanking mechanics and arenas in general. There are reasons SWTOR arenas are very unpopular while WoW arenas are still maintaining a healthy population.

[BigDumbViking]

Full Tanks are far from an issue in PVP. I applaud BW for making a tank spec viable in PVP, it's awesome.

 

The problem is the DPS hybrid tanks. There needs to be far more stance/cylinder dependencies for the tank capable AC's.

[Puissant]

I think guard should drop after 20-30s so it has to be reapplied. This would eliminate all the scrub tanks that put a guard on the healer and go herp derp 30m off and let me tank much better.

edit

Edited February 18, 2014 by Puissant

[CrazyOldMystic]

I think guard should after 20-30s so it has to be reapplied. This would eliminate all the scrub tanks that put a guard on the healer and go herp derp 30m off and let me tank much better.

 

First as the other poster pointed out tanking is fine in swtor in pvp, at least until they destroy focused defense for guardians/juggernauts. The problem with your issue on tanking is melee tank can not stay next to his or her target. To keep their barriers up they must get close enough to their target to attack with saber. This does not mean they are scrubs. Funny how these kids keep coming with new names to call people. I wonder what next months word will be. It means they know what they must do to survive. Also 20-30 seconds really? Have you ever been a fight as a tank trying to guard somebody. It takes a great deal of concentration to negate the dps of other players correctly. Not to mention watching distant as well . Its not as easy or simple as people like to believe. Nor do healers make it easy on the tanks. A bit of good healers always welcome a tank to guard for them, however their seems to be a trend with bad healers, that do not want tanks guarding them. I think they are trying to prove something but whatever.

 

So not sure why so many are bent on destroying tanks, hopefully the devs got the good sense, not to mess with one of the few good things about swtor pvp right now.

[Puissant]

I'm tanking now btw. If you don't swap your guard every 20-30s anyways, you're not doing it right. And is scrub really a new word for you?

[L-RANDLE]

The thing about tanking and guard in general is that tanks are not really 100% viable in a WZ without a healer. I still don't think 100% tanks are better than having a healer in that spot. Part if the issue is that you can't nerf guard without making tanks even more unviable. The issue is that healers, and damage for that matter, isnt debuffed while being guarded.

 

As for the DPS specs having taunts, I don't think they are really a problem. You can't take it away and give them proportionally higher DPS because they have better built in Defense over most pure DPS classes, so that would make them the most viable. The only solution I see is not to remove taunts from hybrid classes, but add way more healing debuffs to pure DPS classes. If damage is being debuffed, healing should be too. As much as people complain about damage on certain classes, healing isn't subjected to nearly as much debuffs as damage, and that isn't even bringing guard and DFCD to the party. I know Sage and Mando needs some QoL stuff, but I think that slight change in guard and more healing debuffs would make this game way more balanced.

[Aetideus]

The thing about tanking and guard in general is that tanks are not really 100% viable in a WZ without a healer. I still don't think 100% tanks are better than having a healer in that spot. Part if the issue is that you can't nerf guard without making tanks even more unviable. The issue is that healers, and damage for that matter, isnt debuffed while being guarded.

 

As for the DPS specs having taunts, I don't think they are really a problem. You can't take it away and give them proportionally higher DPS because they have better built in Defense over most pure DPS classes, so that would make them the most viable. The only solution I see is not to remove taunts from hybrid classes, but add way more healing debuffs to pure DPS classes. If damage is being debuffed, healing should be too. As much as people complain about damage on certain classes, healing isn't subjected to nearly as much debuffs as damage, and that isn't even bringing guard and DFCD to the party. I know Sage and Mando needs some QoL stuff, but I think that slight change in guard and more healing debuffs would make this game way more balanced.

 

I think the most complains are coming from people that are not used countering tank. If a tank switch guard then the dps must switch too. That makes tank a very high skilled spec in competitive game.

In regulars the abundance of stealth and ranged can coordinate to separate the tank from healer. Tank -heal is team play and can be countered likewise. Pugs complains mostly.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Aetideus

[L-RANDLE]

I think the most complains are coming from people that are not used countering tank. If a tank switch guard then the dps must switch too. That makes tank a very high skilled spec in competitive game.

In regulars the abundance of stealth and ranged can coordinate to separate the tank from healer. Tank -heal is team play and can be countered likewise. Pugs complains mostly.

 

Aye, methinks guard and tanks are fine, in general. Some minor tweaks maybe, but a flat out nerf to an already demanding spec... Uhhhhhh, no...

[ByeToWoW]

Game cloned most of its mechanics from WoW. Not saying this is a bad thing. Not saying WoW didn't copy from others.

 

Blizzard would never implement 4v4 arenas and make that the only option. They would also never make tanks essential for teams to survive. Even with the player base they have, forcing teams to fill 3 roles to compete would slow down activity. 3v3 makes more sense in so many ways, but the developers of this game could never implement 3v3, because of tanks. tank/healer/dps mirrors would go on for ages with guard in its current form.

 

3v3 would also make solo queue more playable for all classes across the board. It would give individual players more control over the outcome of a match. Peeling becomes more beneficial when there are only 2-3 dps zerging your teammate rather than four. Especially if they upped damage reduction from expertise.

 

2v2 would also help activity. Players could build synergy with others easier in 2v2. Players could learn the game. Obviously can't introduce 2v2 with guard. Tank/healer teams. Slit my wrists now.

 

 

 

I didn't link the video to prove that guard is broken. I mean I'm pretty sure that was a solo queue, so the teams weren't on skype and couldn't really cc the tank and burst the non guarded target at the same time. My point with the video is that there is no movement whatsoever. The guard mechanic and tanks in their current form hurts movement, kiting and positioning. It takes those aspects out of pvp.

 

Kiting, moving and using the map becomes less important to non-existant when guard comes into play, because you are making it harder for your tank to keep you guarded on a swap if you don't just group up the entire time. It also means your tank can't assist dps the kill target if you're sitting at max range or trying to line of sight.

 

 

 

I agree, but guarding people is not very difficult. There is no cooldown to watch or duration. There is no proc or rotation. You just have to be aware enough to realize who is getting attacked and stand in range. Not getting hit by smash while guarding and other similar things does make a difference, but switching guard itself is very simple (especially for how powerful it is). Single target taunting at max effectiveness has a much higher skill ceiling with less of a reward.

 

Countering guard with swaps and CC is harder and requires coordination yes, but no more coordination than using CC and swaps to get kills if they introduced 3v3 with a changed guard mechanic. Besides, I highly doubt that most kills come from CC chains on a tank with a swap in the current game and as gear levels progress, tunneling the tank would just become easier and easier.

 

Guard also lowers the skill required to play the game once you play with a tank that swaps guard well, because players can just stand there and face tank the incoming damage. When you take away kiting and positioning, you take away a big part of the skill cap. You also take away from the importance of non tank peeling.

 

Guard also hurts the majority of warzones, because the high burst and aoe damage characters can do is meant to counter guard. You need to have the potential of taking a large chunk of your target's health away in a matter of seconds to get kills in the small windows that a tank is crowd controlled. Fine when teams have tanks to reallocate the incoming damage, but the vast majority of warzones there are not going to be tanks running around guard swapping. The damage however is still there. Being killed or killing things in a matter of seconds isn't fun at all. Plus, the more tanks you have the less effective they become.

 

Not saying they should change guard anytime soon, but next expansion they should revisit tanking mechanics and arenas in general. There are reasons SWTOR arenas are very unpopular while WoW arenas are still maintaining a healthy population.

 

Honestly, I think we can just agree to disagree. Neither of us are inherently wrong, or right. We just enjoy different flavors of gaming. Personally, I abhorred WoW 3v3 arenas. It appears to me that you liked them as you are trying to suggest something similar in SWTOR. That right there I think sums up us not really agreeing on the mechanic and its specifics.

 

I will say this though: it is a pleasure to actually have intelligent forum-based discussions on here... vs WoW forums... so thank you.

[ByeToWoW]

L-Randle, will you marry me?

[kaimelion]

I have more of a grasp on game mechanics than you'll every understand or know. I'll leave your own little imaginary world where you believe you are the know all to be all.

 

Okay, lets think your ideas through: No taunts from dps specs and no heals from dps specs and 1 minute cc immunity after using your breaker. Lets say its a Novare mid fight. The fights starts, everybody has a slow within the first 3 gcds. The slows are broken and suddenly you have 14 people running around doing what they want. GL peeling your healer then. I mean, how do you want to peel him? All the tools you have for peeling are not working now. It will probably end in a pure dps race.

GJ now you have the best PvP ever

[Tankqull]

the only part of guard that is to strong is its insane range.

[L-RANDLE]

L-Randle, will you marry me?

 

Are u rich?

[Zoom_VI]

the only part of guard that is to strong is its insane range.

 

15m is insane range? wat.