Is SWTOR the pariah of MMOs?

[BrintoSFJ]

I play a variety of MMOs but SWTOR is my main game. And whenever this game is mentioned in chat channels of other games, or on other forums, the common response is "lol".

 

It's almost embarrassing to say you play SWTOR? Is it like this across the genre or just in certain games? Curious what other peeps have noticed.

 

Mostly because of the horrible f2p restrictions like "pay for quickbar", "pay for quest reward", "pay to show title/legacy name" or "pay to hide helmet". If BW monetized the jedi classes instead of these restrictions people would not be talking trash like that. on top of these, a person who pre-ordered the game and/or bought after release played a couple of month then stopped; they found out that they get same treatment as the person who spent 5$ in cash shop. this was a huge negative point. by february 2012 swtor had 1.7million subscribers, let's say we now have 500K subscribers, there are 1.2million who did not re-sub. if treatment were better at least half of them would still be active subscriber.

[Mallorik]

Mostly because of the horrible f2p restrictions like "pay for quickbar", "pay for quest reward", "pay to show title/legacy name" or "pay to hide helmet". If BW monetized the jedi classes instead of these restrictions people would not be talking trash like that. on top of these, a person who pre-ordered the game and/or bought after release played a couple of month then stopped; they found out that they get same treatment as the person who spent 5$ in cash shop. this was a huge negative point. by february 2012 swtor had 1.7million subscribers, let's say we now have 500K subscribers, there are 1.2million who did not re-sub. if treatment were better at least half of them would still be active subscriber.

 

F2p treatment really would help nothing, Swtor is still pretty much the same game those people left a star wars reskin of wow in 2005. Oh well except groupfinder. Basically they took everything from wow that made the mmo genre dumber and left out everything wow did to make the mmo genre more fun.

 

I don't know anymore if the bioware devs are too stupid to figure this out or if they just cant implement them. In the past they said they "didn't think mmos needed that" then after the game was almost dead they started saying "we are working on it... soon"

[CosmicKat]

F2p treatment really would help nothing, Swtor is still pretty much the same game those people left a star wars reskin of wow in 2005. Oh well except groupfinder. Basically they took everything from wow that made the mmo genre dumber and left out everything wow did to make the mmo genre more fun.

 

I don't know anymore if the bioware devs are too stupid to figure this out or if they just cant implement them. In the past they said they "didn't think mmos needed that" then after the game was almost dead they started saying "we are working on it... soon"

 

Every MMO since EQ has been a progressively more watered down version of EQ. That in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, as many things in EQ needed to be watered down. The problem now though is that all of these MMO's are built around a core that was designed for a much harder and much longer game and it no longer works.

 

It's like keeping the interface and game mechanics of a hard core flight simulator like Falcon 3.0 in an action oriented on-rails shooter.

[chuixupu]

Every MMO since EQ has been a progressively more watered down version of EQ. That in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, as many things in EQ needed to be watered down. The problem now though is that all of these MMO's are built around a core that was designed for a much harder and much longer game and it no longer works.

.

 

This is a good point. Everybody wants everything fast-tracked, but the content is still being made expecting people to take their time and grind everything out. We've gotten rid of slow leveling, attunments, legendary gear grinds, forming 40+-man teams in general chat, saving up for months just to buy a mount at high level, but the content is basically the same and people rip through it and wonder where all the content is. You can't go back and make things the way they used to be, MMOs need to be revolutionized from the inside-out.

[MisterBlackJack]

and then they spend 2 seconds thinking about what else there is and the license.

 

SWTOR is only as big as it is because of the SW license and going F2P...it's so profitable because of the nicken-and-diming.

 

I like SWTOR well enough. But that doesn't change facts. Fact is SWTOR is one of (if not the biggest) MMO failure. Despite what Bio tells you now they WERE in fact, gunning for WoW...the game didn't cut it becuase of shortcuts and design choices...and because of that people left in droves and SWTOR was forced to go f2p nickel-and-dime shop in less than a years time. That's sad. The competition SWTOR has outside of WoW are MMO's that made a lot of the same mistakes.

 

But I applaud your attempt.

 

You do realize what he is talking about is in terms of Subs not microtransactions. SWTOR is still the 2nd or 3rd biggest MMO in terms of SUBS in the West

[Mallorik]

Every MMO since EQ has been a progressively more watered down version of EQ. That in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, as many things in EQ needed to be watered down. The problem now though is that all of these MMO's are built around a core that was designed for a much harder and much longer game and it no longer works.

 

It's like keeping the interface and game mechanics of a hard core flight simulator like Falcon 3.0 in an action oriented on-rails shooter.

 

I don't know if its come to that yet, wow is just as dumb as swtor and it seems to work.

 

I really believe it all stems from the Devs philosophy, I know I was completely dumbfounded when I heard a dev say he didn't think an modern mmo (aka a dumbed down version of eq) needed a group finder or addons. It was while I was in beta right before open beta started and I knew immediately swtor was going to flop.

 

Its seriously like they wanted to make an old school mmo by making people group up themselves and go to dungeons, not allowing macros so combat was more cumbersome and took up 50 hot buttons, no dual specs so if you wanted to play another role you had to level another character. In beta and even at release the Fps were hard even for veteran mmo players. And lets face it, the modern gamer doesn't want these mmos, eq at its height may have broke half a million players, if you remade it today I don't think it would do much better.

 

Then the rest of the game they made for mouthbreathing riddlin popping wow players who wont play a game that doesn't have all the bells and whistles like groupfinders and addons.

 

In other words they made the game a pain in the *** and dumbed it down at the same time, shot themselves in both feet.

[Cidanel]

I don't know if its come to that yet, wow is just as dumb as swtor and it seems to work.

 

I really believe it all stems from the Devs philosophy, I know I was completely dumbfounded when I heard a dev say he didn't think an modern mmo (aka a dumbed down version of eq) needed a group finder or addons. It was while I was in beta right before open beta started and I knew immediately swtor was going to flop.

 

Its seriously like they wanted to make an old school mmo by making people group up themselves and go to dungeons, not allowing macros so combat was more cumbersome and took up 50 hot buttons, no dual specs so if you wanted to play another role you had to level another character. In beta and even at release the Fps were hard even for veteran mmo players. And lets face it, the modern gamer doesn't want these mmos, eq at its height may have broke half a million players, if you remade it today I don't think it would do much better.

 

Then the rest of the game they made for mouthbreathing riddlin popping wow players who wont play a game that doesn't have all the bells and whistles like groupfinders and addons.

 

In other words they made the game a pain in the *** and dumbed it down at the same time, shot themselves in both feet.

 

And there are those of us who play SWTOR because they don't allow macros. I want to play something that takes a spark of brainpower, not something where I can mindlessly mash the same few macros and get through it. WoW is more successful because it is easier to play, and most people like to feel like they are elite with less work put into it.

[Mallorik]

And there are those of us who play SWTOR because they don't allow macros. I want to play something that takes a spark of brainpower, not something where I can mindlessly mash the same few macros and get through it. WoW is more successful because it is easier to play, and most people like to feel like they are elite with less work put into it.

 

Yes and im sure bioware appreciates both of you. I just think it would have more subs if people had more options. And as for swtor taking a spark of brain power to play? I see no evidence of that at all, as far as im concerned this game is just as dumbed down if not more than wow, it just has none of the bells and whistles that make the mind numbing bearable.

[Cidanel]

Yes and im sure bioware appreciates both of you. I just think it would have more subs if people had more options. And as for swtor taking a spark of brain power to play? I see no evidence of that at all, as far as im concerned this game is just as dumbed down if not more than wow, it just has none of the bells and whistles that make the mind numbing bearable.

 

Then good riddance to you. I would rather have a smaller game that is challenging than something as mindless than WoW.

 

Compared to WoW, SWTOR is a lot more difficult to play. WoW caters to the mindless "ROFL, I AM SO L33T" crowd, which is one of the biggest markets in the MMO community. You also realize you directly contradicted yourself, don't you? You "find no evidence of SWTOR taking brain power"? From your post two posts ago:

 

"not allowing macros so combat was more cumbersome and took up 50 hot buttons, "

 

Calling not allowing macros cumbersome is saying that SWTOR is more difficult to play than WoW. You do realize that gameplay being easier and a game having less side features are two completely different things, don't you?

Edited February 20, 2014 by Cidanel

[Mallorik]

Then good riddance to you. I would rather have a smaller game that is challenging than something as mindless than WoW.

 

Compared to WoW, SWTOR is a lot more difficult to play. WoW caters to the mindless "ROFL, I AM SO L33T" crowd, which is one of the biggest markets in the MMO community. You also realize you directly contradicted yourself, don't you? You "find no evidence of SWTOR taking brain power"? From your post two posts ago:

 

"not allowing macros so combat was more cumbersome and took up 50 hot buttons, "

 

Calling not allowing macros cumbersome is saying that SWTOR is more difficult to play than WoW. You do realize that gameplay being easier and a game having less side features are two completely different things, don't you?

 

So your example of why swtor is not as dumbed down as wow is that theres no macros? And yes I call having 5 hotbars full of skills cumbersome. Eq1 was 100x harder than swtor would be trying to level to 55 buck naked and bare fisted( Copyrighted for future guild name) and they didn't have a screen full of skills AND they had macros.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Mallorik

[silentsurfer]

Then good riddance to you. I would rather have a smaller game that is challenging than something as mindless than WoW.

 

Compared to WoW, SWTOR is a lot more difficult to play. WoW caters to the mindless "ROFL, I AM SO L33T" crowd, which is one of the biggest markets in the MMO community. You also realize you directly contradicted yourself, don't you? You "find no evidence of SWTOR taking brain power"? From your post two posts ago:

 

"not allowing macros so combat was more cumbersome and took up 50 hot buttons, "

 

Calling not allowing macros cumbersome is saying that SWTOR is more difficult to play than WoW. You do realize that gameplay being easier and a game having less side features are two completely different things, don't you?

 

I'm not sure how you could think SWTOR is more difficult actually. Both mmos have good and bad points, but lets face it, in SWTOR you can play classes that can root, stun and damage enemies all with the push of one button. Or classes that have abilities to kill enemies in one channeled skill. I have never actually seen that in any mmo. Granted some mmos drag out combat wayyyyy to long. But SWTOR combat on some classes requires a maximum of one or two abilities to literally level from 1-55. That alone tells you that they set out to make SWTOR one of the easiest mmos to date to play.

[ivanhedgehog]

Apparently it's the second highest gross profit mmo Last year I just hope they funnel some of that cash into improving The game Like x server tech A better engine

I've played a few mmos too and tried the Eso beta Swtor doesn't have much to worry about.

 

as long as new mmo's decide to design themselves for consoles, swtor is safe. the limitations required for console players gut an mmo.

[Lium]

Then good riddance to you. I would rather have a smaller game that is challenging than something as mindless than WoW.

 

Compared to WoW, SWTOR is a lot more difficult to play. WoW caters to the mindless "ROFL, I AM SO L33T" crowd, which is one of the biggest markets in the MMO community. You also realize you directly contradicted yourself, don't you? You "find no evidence of SWTOR taking brain power"? From your post two posts ago:

 

"not allowing macros so combat was more cumbersome and took up 50 hot buttons, "

 

Calling not allowing macros cumbersome is saying that SWTOR is more difficult to play than WoW. You do realize that gameplay being easier and a game having less side features are two completely different things, don't you?

 

Reposting this from another thread because I think it's relevant to this thread, to SWTOR, and this quote in particular:

 

"...I'm standing by what I said about MMOers being liars. Games like TSW, EVE and Darkfall were specifically made for gamers that are looking for a hardcore and by and large brutal experience. While games like SWTOR, WoW, LOTRO and any number of other traditional theme park games were made for general consumption by the masses. Yes, they are more massively multiplayer online games. The other titles, as you said are more niche.

 

But that's my point. They exist. And what really grinds my gears are people that are constantly criticizing the SWTORs and the WoWs for being too easy and for appealing too much to casuals when the games these hardcore players claim to want are out there waiting for them, if they dare to play them.

 

Stop trying to make theme park games into something they are not or were never meant to be. They have a completely different target audience. "

[Arkerus]

Reposting this from another thread because I think it's relevant to this thread, to SWTOR, and this quote in particular:

 

"...I'm standing by what I said about MMOers being liars. Games like TSW, EVE and Darkfall were specifically made for gamers that are looking for a hardcore and by and large brutal experience. While games like SWTOR, WoW, LOTRO and any number of other traditional theme park games were made for general consumption by the masses. Yes, they are more massively multiplayer online games. The other titles, as you said are more niche.

 

But that's my point. They exist. And what really grinds my gears are people that are constantly criticizing the SWTORs and the WoWs for being too easy and for appealing too much to casuals when the games these hardcore players claim to want are out there waiting for them, if they dare to play them.

 

Stop trying to make theme park games into something they are not or were never meant to be. They have a completely different target audience. "

 

Been saying that since day 1 my friend.

 

A whole bunch of people bought a car, knowing full well it was a car. Then they complained it wasn't a truck.

 

Ridiculous

 

 

Different products are made for different segments of the market. That's the entire strategy behind market segmentation. There are just a bunch of people here that simply don't understand basic logic or business strategy.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Arkerus

[Mallorik]

Been saying that since day 1 my friend.

 

A whole bunch of people bought a car, knowing full well it was a car. Then they complained it wasn't a truck.

 

Ridiculous

 

 

Different products are made for different segments of the market. That's the entire strategy behind market segmentation. There are just a bunch of people here that simply don't understand basic logic or business strategy.

 

The players aren't the only ones to blame, bioware made a dumbed down theme park mmo with the quality of life features of a 2003 sandbox game.

[Arkerus]

The players aren't the only ones to blame, bioware made a dumbed down theme park mmo with the quality of life features of a 2003 sandbox game.

 

I admit they didn't have features that they should have on day one...

 

But...

 

Dumbed down? Compared to what? Nuclear physics? I enjoy the accessibility of this game. If you can't find the enjoyment that's your own problem, no one else's.

[Tannatra]

 

.... Fact is SWTOR is one of (if not the biggest) MMO failure. t.

 

 

I raise you APB xD nothing beats 6 weeks then shutdown

[Mallorik]

I admit they didn't have features that they should have on day one...

 

But...

 

Dumbed down? Compared to what? Nuclear physics? I enjoy the accessibility of this game. If you can't find the enjoyment that's your own problem, no one else's.

 

Dumbed down compared to mmos before wow simplified and soften the genre to make it appeal to people with jobs as well as stupid people

 

I never said I didn't like the new dumbed down mmos I just said mmos were dumbed down. I played eq 1 in highschool and college and I don't have that kind of time anymore so I prefer the new mmos.

 

What I said is I don't like is an mmo with all the dumbed down features like easy leveling, no death penalties, no unique special gear little chance of ever dying, But with none of the mmo innovations like group finders, dual specs, macros and addons.

[Ansultares]

let's say we now have 500K subscribers

The number I heard, and it was on one of those fancy charts showing MMO populations over the last decade, is 150k. There might be 500k total players, maybe....probably not.

 

Basically they took everything from wow that made the mmo genre dumber and left out everything wow did to make the mmo genre more fun.

Well, they did design Huttball. That's at least one good (former?) dev.

 

"...I'm standing by what I said about MMOers being liars. Games like TSW, EVE and Darkfall were specifically made for gamers that are looking for a hardcore and by and large brutal experience. While games like SWTOR, WoW, LOTRO and any number of other traditional theme park games were made for general consumption by the masses. Yes, they are more massively multiplayer online games. The other titles, as you said are more niche.

SWTOR's niche. So's every other themepark besides WoW. Half of WoW's success is due to WoW's success....namely, if you reach enough players, you generate enough social media and 3rd party interest to attract more players. They launched during a favorable window in the genre, and mostly succeeded in managing to keep out of their own way.

 

Regardless, of the three "hardcore" games listed above, EVE continues to successfully grow. Darkfall was a purely hardcore game by a 3rd rate developer; after AoC, I wouldn't trust such a developer, even if I was looking for that hardcore of a game. I've heard good things about TSW; the premise lives up to its promise...if you know enough Finnish to get through the numerous puzzles involved. I don't know any Finnish, and I don't trust Funcom in the least, even though I wasn't one of their unwitting victims charged dozens or more times in a single day for a subscription auto-renewal, or one of the unfortunate players whose rig melted under their terrible code.

 

But coming back to this game after playing several other MMOs over the last roughly two years, what it has to offer are KOTOR cutscenes and decent PvP; to me, this is really only evident when considering primitive cutscenes other developer are beginning to heavily employ, and the abysmal state of PvP....most developer are at best launching with some junk WoW arena knockoff.

[agamemnon-]

I wouldn' I've heard good things about TSW; the premise lives up to its promise...if you know enough Finnish to get through the numerous puzzles involved.

 

I have yet to run into any puzzles requiring knowledge of the Finnish language. Where did you here that at? All you really need is a brain and internet searching abilities to reference things like Latin and the Bible (the game's pretty much spells out what you need to reference).

[Kourage]

It's the 2nd best MMORPG on the market.

[adamqd]

Pariah would mean TOR was an outcast, or stands apart... I'll be honest, there isn't a good MMO on the market anymore, I played MMO's for nearly a decade, day in day out, like I actually played them, but there's not a good one currently available. I'm not speaking for everyone, but when a 30+ year Star Wars FANATIC/10+ year MMO freak (Me) cant bring himself to log in for more than 20 minutes a week in a Star Wars MMO, you failed. Edited February 21, 2014 by adamqd

[GalacticKegger]

Dumbed down compared to mmos before wow simplified and soften the genre to make it appeal to people with jobs as well as stupid people

 

I never said I didn't like the new dumbed down mmos I just said mmos were dumbed down. I played eq 1 in highschool and college and I don't have that kind of time anymore so I prefer the new mmos.

 

What I said is I don't like is an mmo with all the dumbed down features like easy leveling, no death penalties, no unique special gear little chance of ever dying, But with none of the mmo innovations like group finders, dual specs, macros and addons.

Out of curiosity, what existing MMO has all of the innovations you listed with none of the dumbed down features you don't want? If such a game exists for a true gamer, wouldn't they be spending their precious time there playing that game? And if such a game does not exist, what do you feel has to realistically happen for it to exist? Edited February 21, 2014 by GalacticKegger

[danielearley]

I play a variety of MMOs but SWTOR is my main game. And whenever this game is mentioned in chat channels of other games, or on other forums, the common response is "lol".

 

It's almost embarrassing to say you play SWTOR? Is it like this across the genre or just in certain games? Curious what other peeps have noticed.

 

The Internet is full of Trolls, the forum is full of Trolls. You should expect a lot of hate.

 

You already have the trolls attacking anyone who's happy to say they enjoy playing this game, although said Trolls who apparently hate the game, pay a subscription. So they are either stupid, or Trolling for the fun of Trolling!

 

Moral of the story is never take anyone else's opinion, form your own. If your bored and want some fun Troll the stupid Trolls

[GalacticKegger]

The Internet is full of Trolls, the forum is full of Trolls. You should expect a lot of hate.

 

You already have the trolls attacking anyone who's happy to say they enjoy playing this game, although said Trolls who apparently hate the game, pay a subscription. So they are either stupid, or Trolling for the fun of Trolling!

 

Moral of the story is never take anyone else's opinion, form your own. If your bored and want some fun Troll the stupid Trolls

A question trolls often pose in their own defense is "Why would I be stupid enough to pay a subscription fee just to troll a forum?" Absolutely flawless logic imho, as anyone who pays a subscription fee just to troll a forum is indeed stupid. Edited February 21, 2014 by GalacticKegger