Sentinel Love, what can Bioware do to keep other players interested in our class?

[Omniscientearl]

Don't get me wrong, I main a Sentinel and do just fine in operations. I just sigh wistfully every time I see other advanced classes getting all sorts of love while we are slowly whittled away at. My question is, what do you think would make our class as rewarding to play as other classes for new players?

 

My first thought is to tame the RNG a bit more. My guild mates will giggle at my team speak frustration when I get a dry spell for Opportune Attack. Something similar to the guaranteed stacking proc that the Guardians now enjoy would be nice. Now that I've said my piece, I want to hear what the rest of you think.

[Adaliaya]

Vote for this, IMO Sentinel should be maybe 2-3% ahead of other classes because of that simple reason they aren't able to tank or heal. Also our best build should not be hybrid build, they should make Watchman superior for long fights like raid bosses, Combat for burst damage and Focus for PvP and AoE damage good for add DPS. We should not have to mix builds to get our maximal DPS

[oofalong]

Vote for this, IMO Sentinel should be maybe 2-3% ahead of other classes because of that simple reason they aren't able to tank or heal. Also our best build should not be hybrid build, they should make Watchman superior for long fights like raid bosses, Combat for burst damage and Focus for PvP and AoE damage good for add DPS. We should not have to mix builds to get our maximal DPS

 

I would like this to be true as well. With 3 DPS specs available to us, I would love to see a sustained spec, a burst spec and an AoE spec. Incidentally, this would probably mean Watchman would not be ideal in PvP. Based on the Devs comments this seems unlikely though.

 

Plus, I do think the pure DPS classes should have a minor DPS benefit under the right conditions. Or some other traiti/utility that makes them unique...

[ML_DoubleTap]

I can't really get behind the premise that Sent/Marauder needs a lot of love. They're one of the few classes that are well represented at end game with all 3 trees...and a hybrid that outperforms them all in many cases! They have decent raid utility and some of the best defensives to boot. I'm not convinced they need much love currently.

[Bejarid]

I disagree with the philosophy of "pures at the top," especially when it's a class as strongly over-represented as Sentinels. It's the same kind of mindset that says "Sages should only be able to heal" or "Vanguards should only be able to tank." It limits choice based on personal preference. I'm perfectly happy playing my Combat Sentinel as is because it's fun, and to hell with its parsing capability.

 

Frankly, far too much emphasis is placed on being or mimicking the "top DPS" and not playing what's most fun for an individual - and that's the curse of the Combat Log. It's a wonderful tool, don't get me wrong, but it always needs to be pointed out, time and again, that theoretical DPS on a dummy is in no way a true representation of performance in an actual group setting.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

To be quite honest, I got rid of my 55 Marauder, because the class plays either Too slowly (Watchman) Too many procs (Combat) or has too low a DPS to be effective in raids (Focus)

 

If either Combat had less procs, they ramped up the pace of Watchman or increased the PvE DPS of Focus, I would consider playing a Mara/Sent again.

 

Combat has the fast pace I want in a dual wield class, BUT it has too many procs to keep straight that the slightest miss on a proc means your DPS tanks really badly! Watchman is less Proc heavy, but it's too slow and sluggish in it's animations and skills that, it feels more like a spec for a Guardian. and Focus has fast pace and low proc reliability, but it's DPS in Ops is so low, that... I couldn't pull my weight in an Ops.

[SovereignConvict]

Yep. Sentinel and Marauder are now the most useless ACs in this game.

 

I love the class, but because of how much more difficult it is to play than EVERY other class, it serves no point.

 

They don't have any heals (and no, *********** Watchman dots do NOT count), no stealth (a 4 second stealth on nearly a minute CD also does not count), no way to instantly kill an opponent (they are the only class with neither a pull nor a push ability), almost every ability is "direction specific," (if you've not played other ACs, did you even know that many of their abilities can be triggered without even having your character pointed in the direction of your target?) limited range, terrible resistance to damage (Guarded by the Force is a joke. It was nerfed because it was "too effective in team play," but that's now just left solo players with a useless ability. You want to pop it at 1% health so it doesn't eat up half of your health, but you can no longer immediately use a health pack when you pop it, so you just usually die the instant it goes down. Meanwhile, Sages and Sorcerers now get a *********** bubble that offers better damage resistance, heals them [if they're specced for it], and does NOT take up HALF of their *********** health to use. Oh, and it lasts WAY longer than 4 seconds. Double, oh, it's also getting a buff in 2.7. What a *********** joke), if you play a spec that is DOT reliant, then most of them can be wiped by the Sage/Sorcerer ability to remove TWO *********** DOTs at once which is on a TWO second cool down, and just so... so many other reasons not to play them.

 

There's no shortage of players playing Sent/Mara though, because it's play style appeals to people with ADHD and people that play alone.

 

It's fine to have a class that's more difficult to play, but it has to have a corresponding benefit. Previously, Sents and Maras just did the most damage and/or killed players the most. Now that is not the case. After 2.7, if the proposed changes go through, they'll be even worse.

 

Sadly, BioWare underestimated the number of psychologically stunted, pathetic digital bullies that decided to play their game and all made Sorcerers. So, anytime any class other than Sorcs get something the Sorcs don't, or when Sorcs get nerfed, a HUGE contingent of the SWTOR fan base cries and/or leaves.

 

BioWare knows where their money is. Just play a Sage or a Sorcerer. Or, if you prefer an even easier time, play a Scoundrel or Operative and enjoy the fun of killing every single equally or lesser geared opponent you ever choose to engage in combat, and never, ever, die.

[Vodrin]

According to Sovereign I have ADHD. Oh well, at least I managed to make it through medical school and residency despite it.

[venomlash]

Plus, I do think the pure DPS classes should have a minor DPS benefit under the right conditions. Or some other traiti/utility that makes them unique...

 

If only Sents had the ability to buff the entire group with a damage/healing boost or extra speed...

If only Slingers could drop a 20% damage reduction bubble over their teammates...

[ML_DoubleTap]

If only Sents had the ability to buff the entire group with a damage/healing boost or extra speed...

If only Slingers could drop a 20% damage reduction bubble over their teammates...

 

They can.

 

Oh, wait..nvm, I see what you did there.

[JKnightJ]

I will agree with the OP in that a bit of a reduction in the RNG impact on this class, especially Combat would be desirable. Barring that, don't do a damned thing to it, save my personal wish would be to reduce the focus cost of Blade Rush or increase its damage slightly.

 

I've mained a Combat sentinel for almost 2 years now and despite all the changes to the class and the nerfs, a Combat sent is still the most fun to play in my view. It's a frenetic dance of chaos to play and requires a ridiculous amount of focus to play well: you will wear your fingers to nubs doing so.

 

While our raid utility is evident only every 5 minutes now, notwithstanding use of transcendence, a well played sentinel , or even 2 or 3 of them are more than beneficial to have in end-game operations. After the demise of the much adored Flyby, Sents are now again on par for damage output in ops with the only other pure dps class in the game: Gunslingers.

[Cordorian]

I will agree with the OP in that a bit of a reduction in the RNG impact on this class, especially Combat would be desirable. Barring that, don't do a damned thing to it, save my personal wish would be to reduce the focus cost of Blade Rush or increase its damage slightly.

 

I've mained a Combat sentinel for almost 2 years now and despite all the changes to the class and the nerfs, a Combat sent is still the most fun to play in my view. It's a frenetic dance of chaos to play and requires a ridiculous amount of focus to play well: you will wear your fingers to nubs doing so.

 

While our raid utility is evident only every 5 minutes now, notwithstanding use of transcendence, a well played sentinel , or even 2 or 3 of them are more than beneficial to have in end-game operations. After the demise of the much adored Flyby, Sents are now again on par for damage output in ops with the only other pure dps class in the game: Gunslingers.

 

even with the inspiration nerf (which by all means was necessary pve wise), still at least on sentinel is a must have for endgame pve, since still you want inspiration for burn phases. But it is actually nice that groups open up the possibility that scoundrels can do something different than healing as well and not every melee spot has to be taken by a sent.

Also what people shouldnt forget is that dummy and actual operations are two pairs of shoes. It might be that scrapper atm can produce ridiculous parses on a dummy, but in live it is still rather weird to play it in an actual boss fight with lots of adds and movements, so you wont even get close to the dummy numbers. Single handedly having the leap makes a massive difference in this context.

 

You can take a well played watchman or combat sent into any operation of any difficulty level even when going for world first or stuff like that. They might atm not be the dummy kings but sentinels have 3 spec currently that are in a good place for serious endgame pve (dotsmash included).

 

PVP wise, Carnage was always viable despite being harder to play than a lot of other classes and specs. I am myself not very good with it yet, but i do enjoy it, and really don't want it any different. One thing only the PS Window should actually only start once you start inflicting damage, so that you cant get stunned out of your damage consistenly. Would be simple change and probably very welcome.

 

Focus gets a massive nerfs. But still it will have an alright single target frontloaded burst, that is really easy to play and had great defensive capabilities. Maybe now you would actually see people playing smash not just AoEing their numbers up but actually playing objectives.

The combination of frontloaded AoE Burst Damage with probably the best DCDs in game was just a bit too much.

[cs_zoltan]

I would like this to be true as well. With 3 DPS specs available to us, I would love to see a sustained spec, a burst spec and an AoE spec. Incidentally, this would probably mean Watchman would not be ideal in PvP. Based on the Devs comments this seems unlikely though.

 

Plus, I do think the pure DPS classes should have a minor DPS benefit under the right conditions. Or some other traiti/utility that makes them unique...

 

I don't agree, pure dps spec shouldn't be ahead of the rest only because they can only dps. Like you pointed out they do have benefit, pure dps classes are the only ones with burst, sustained and AoE tree, and they are the only one with trauma for PVP. They have the best (or at least the most used) utilities as well with Insipration and AoE shield. Give them an edge in damage as well and now there would be no reason to bring anything else than Slinger/Sentinel (which is already the case in some HC progression team)

[CommanderKeeva]

I just sigh wistfully every time I see other advanced classes getting all sorts of love while we are slowly whittled away at.

 

If it makes you feel better, many Shadows and most of the Commandos feel the same way. And while I'm not opposed to buffing specs every so often, I would definitely start with underrepresented classes that actually need help.

 

All I'm saying is that it could be worse. A lot worse.

[AngusFTW]

I don't agree, pure dps spec shouldn't be ahead of the rest only because they can only dps. Like you pointed out they do have benefit, pure dps classes are the only ones with burst, sustained and AoE tree, and they are the only one with trauma for PVP. They have the best (or at least the most used) utilities as well with Insipration and AoE shield. Give them an edge in damage as well and now there would be no reason to bring anything else than Slinger/Sentinel (which is already the case in some HC progression team)

The thing is that these days, there are a few specs (some who are even ranged) which are ahead of sentinels (outside of dotsmash, which will be nerfed i bet bioware hates hybrids) by quite a large margin and remember they don't even have inspiration available on a parse because they aren't a sentinel but still do a fair bit more dmg and will do even more dmg in a raid environment when the sentinel inpiration bots uses it... And our highest parsing (and not by much) pure spec watchman is relying on a relic bug, if that ever gets fixed combat would probably be ahead or on par.

 

While i do agree that all specs should be viable.. i think sentinel does need a look in currently. Its VIABLE dmg for all content atm but there is no real reason to take more then 1 atm since they nerfed inspiration anyway. Gunslingers.. well the shield... is pretty cruciel for alot of things.. especially in 16m plus they are still ridiculously good dmg even after flyby nerf. I don't think i've heard of anyone complete council hm 16m without say... 4 minimum slingers.. for example.. (i'd like to see it, if it has happened )

 

Basically. If they keep buffing other classes but leave sentinel alone.. we will eventually just be be taken as an inspiration bot and not for actual dmg anymore. (i am ofc.. taking the "player" out of account here.. any class can do nice dmg in all of this games content with the right player)

Edited February 19, 2014 by AngusFTW

[cs_zoltan]

*snip*

 

I said they shouldn't be ahead only because they are pure dps class, not that they shouldn't be equal. Which they should. Combat is fine, Focus is fine, when (if) they fix the relic bug buff Anni and all is good.

[Zenmar]

Love can break a class, be careful what you wish for.

 

I just hope they kill the retard dotsmash. It's so stupid it's not even fun. People work for weeks, months, to master their spec, and then dotsmash arrives. I could almost beat my best watchman parse after like 20 minutes of playing it. Free focus, idiotic rotation, AoE fun for everyone. Kill it. With fire.

[Manweth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhrBDcQq2DM&feature=kp

 

[GrandLordMenace]

TBH you can't quite look at dummy parsing for everything. Sentinel for a melee class is relatively unreliant on channels, etc, they don't have problems when the target is facing them, they aren't like guardians who are punished in high mobility, and they have a ****ton of group mobility.

 

The only specs you can claim legitimately out dps sentinels are select ranged dps specs, with concealment being able to match em toe to toe (the spec has mobility problems and if they get threat their dps plummets), lethality operatives being able to edge them out slightly, Vigilance Guardians better in a stand down fight but utterly behind them in any fight with high sustained mobility.

 

Besides the self healing bug, and combat being stupid rng wise, there isn't a whole lot of problems with sentinels. Sentinels should never be king of the hill with the amount of utility they have, just competitive. There will always be people playing sentinels because of its utility, heck in ops you can count it as its own role with the utility the class has.

 

Healer, Tank, Dps, Sentinel!

[Bejarid]

TBH you can't quite look at dummy parsing for everything.

 

Precisely this. Dummy DPS means next to nothing in an actual operation; it only truly indicates that you know your rotation. In an op, though, you have to manage the rotation while moving, swapping to adds, throwing interrupts, etc. And, really, if you look at this, and set the rankings for 8-man HM Grob'thok, Sentinels/Marauders hold four of the top five (and seven of the top ten) parses on an actual raid boss with movement and avoid-fire mechanics.

[AngusFTW]

Hate to burst your bubble, but sentinels parse so high on grobthok because there is some ads you can pad your dmg number with either being focus or dotsmash then smashing... or even just using TST at them as other specs will add like 400 dps (and there is nothing wrong with that !). These ads are number padding in the truest sense because the tank (well most tanks) can actually deal with them himself... So i wouldn't use this fight as an indication of single target dmg.. Edited February 21, 2014 by AngusFTW

[Bejarid]

So i wouldn't use this fight as an indication of single target dmg..

 

Yeah, okay, I'll give you that one. I've only done the fight on SM, and groups I'm in usually ignore adds 'cause the boss' smash annihilates them without taking DPS' focus from the boss. If there's a mechanical difference in HM, or if it's just meter-padding (which I do totally believe), I picked the wrong fight to look at. My bad.

 

Sadly, I'm not terribly familiar with the other ops; I've done TfB and S&V on SM, but haven't done them frequently enough to really remember their respective mechanics, and I've not done either TC or DP (WTB: <Aisthesis> carry through DP SM?). Brontes would be my next best guess, but that's still awkward due to random Finger spawns possibly being within Sweep/Smash/TST range of Hands/other fingers and all.

[Vodrin]

 

Sentinels and Marauders are the least viable class. People keep bringing up PvE and what I imagine are their own experiences in Warzones. But again, I'm only talking about PUGing in PvP. You'll certainly get more "mileage" out of a Sent or Marauder if you're in a group with other players using Vent or Teamspeak or something. But the reason that so many people that do NOT play Sentinels think of them as such a brutal class is exactly because Sentinels are a melee class. When someone has 5 people attacking him and a 6th healing the guy that he's attacking, the only person he notices is the person "up front." So that player attributes their death to the Sentinel that's in their face.

 

 

The fact you post this really makes me question what you are talking about. Sentinel/mara are currently one of the strongest PvP classes when spec'd combat or focus. And that is from the experience of a combat sent who almost exclusively solo queues. Focus will be taking a big hit in 2.7, but combat is still very strong (if a bit more difficult to play). Certainly much stronger than merc/commando, guardian/jugg, and sorc/sage. It's at least as strong as shadow/sin, and is better than any non-heal spec smuggler/op. Just check the solo rated rankings and you will see that mara/sent is one of the most represented classes.

 

Also, melee in general is stronger in PvP at 55 right now. Ranged are at a significant disadvantage. Pretty much 90% of the vet PvPer's on these forums agree with my opinion. Makes me really wonder where you are coming from.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Vodrin

[Hei_Atzfel]

how much more difficult it is to play than EVERY other class

 

You serious?

[SovereignConvict]

The fact you post this really makes me question what you are talking about. Sentinel/mara are currently one of the strongest PvP classes when spec'd combat or focus. And that is from the experience of a combat sent who almost exclusively solo queues. Focus will be taking a big hit in 2.7, but combat is still very strong (if a bit more difficult to play). Certainly much stronger than merc/commando, guardian/jugg, and sorc/sage. It's at least as strong as shadow/sin, and is better than any non-heal spec smuggler/op. Just check the solo rated rankings and you will see that mara/sent is one of the most represented classes.

 

Also, melee in general is stronger in PvP at 55 right now. Ranged are at a significant disadvantage. Pretty much 90% of the vet PvPer's on these forums agree with my opinion. Makes me really wonder where you are coming from.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

 

If it doesn't post my link there, then just Wikipedia, "argumentum ad populum." Just because "90% of the vet PvPer's on these forums agree with you," doesn't have any barring on reality. Also, I find it humorous that you even bothered to make up that statistic. Have you polled all of them? Do you work for BioWare and can run a search query of all posts ever made on their forums? No? Of course not. Now, stop being foolish.

 

Melee will never be stronger than ranged. Here, let me make it simple for you. At 1 meter, a ranged player and a melee player can BOTH hit an opponent. At 20 meters, a melee opponent cannot hit a target, but the ranged player still can.

 

One of the easiest tricks when you're fighting a melee DPS that is getting healed is just to continually run around an object. Breaks line-of-sight with their heal. Thus, little to no heals. Meanwhile, you kill them. Again, you can hit them at melee range even if you're a ranged class. See, ranged always has the benefit of... well, the ENTIRE range variable.

 

You make several statements, but you provide no evidence. Do you know how "knowledge" works? I don't think you do.

 

Here's a little example. So, when you have more than one healer in a Warzone, they can both heal the same target. There's no "debuff" for their action. Sages and Sorcs right now have a power that allows them to wipe out not 1, but TWO debuffs and it's on a two second cooldown!!!

 

You know what Sentinels and Marauders have to contribute to a Warzone? They have one power called, "Inspiration ("Bloodthirst" for the Maras)." It's on a THREE minute cooldown, only has a range of 40 meters (so it's not an entire Warzone group), and it applies a debuff to anyone affected that prevents them from being able to benefit from the same power again for 5 minutes! You do understand that that makes it worthless to have more than 1 Sentinel or 1 Marauder in a Warzone (as it pertains to that power), yes?

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/4tNoy3F/inspiration

 

That's evidence.

 

Sentinels and Marauders are the ONLY class in the game that has neither a push nor a pull, which means there is NO WAY for them to instantly kill an opponent in a Warzone. All of the other classes have an "I win button." Enemy grab the ball in Huttball? Force Wave and push them into a fire pit! You win! Such difficult!

 

They literally have no defense against that move. "A Sentinel could use Force Stasis on them while they're standing over a fire pit," Hypothetical Contrarian says.

 

You could. However, that still requires that they're standing on a fire pit to begin with, that they don't have their stun break available, that your Force Stasis (which a Sentinel always has to "channel") and is not on it's freaking ONE MINUTE cooldown (guess how long the cooldown on Force Wave is??? 20 seconds, just FYI). Also, guess what? Every experienced lag in the game? Trying to time a Force Leap onto an opponent standing on a fire pit, then moving off of it, then turning towards them (because, unlike most other class's, almost all Sentinel abilities are direction-specific), then using Force Stasis before they make their way off while not actually being lit on fire yourself... is WAY more prone to lag issues than just using Force Wave on an enemy or harpooning them onto a fire pit.

 

Guys... I get that you aren't thinking with your brains because for some odd reason your ego overlaps with the class that you play most in a game, but seriously, every class in this game currently has a greater potential to contribute to the success of a team in a Warzone than Sentinels or Marauders do.

 

Believe whatever you will and feel free to continue casting ad hominems my way. It won't make this class any better. If I was in a Warzone with 8 Sages or 8 Scoundrels, I'd think, "We're probably going to win this." If I were in one with 8 Sentinels I'd think, "Well, this is already a loss."

 

If any of you have specific evidence (not a claim, not an opinion, and not anecdotal evidence, but actual evidence) that supports your theory that Sentinels and Marauders are capable of contributing more towards the success of a team in a PUG Warzone, than by all means, please share it.

 

Oh, and Vodrin, if you can compile a list of every single post ever made on these forums concerning "vet PvPers" and "their opinions on ranged being at a disadvantage to melee," I'd like to see that too.

 

If you can't, then stop posting nonsense, get at least a bachelor's degree from a real university, and then come back and make posts without using anecdotal claims.