Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion

[AlrikFassbauer]

This, although I don't disagree, you should ask House. His aoe placement in PVP is impeccable. I've seen no other sorcs do it the way he does it. Like he predicts future movements of the group, and people always stand in them

 

I think it is actually possible to predict mass movements. But that requires an very, very, very fast working brain, one that I believe only intellectually gifted people have.

 

Plus, it requires a way of looking at the sides (the opposite of tunnel visioon) that must be trained in the first place, too.

[Aerilas]

House is good at healing on his sorcerer, sure, and while the AoE heal has its uses I havent seen him perform in a ranked group enviroment (healing)....

 

Thats because he cant. No one can (without grossly outpowering the other team) - which is why I advocate this change

 

He's done very well with Skyrush' team quite a few times (though as you said they sometimes outpowered the enemy team).

But that was not my point. I simply addressed the AOE heal, not the viability in group ranked.

[AdamLKvist]

He's done very well with Skyrush' team quite a few times (though as you said they sometimes outpowered the enemy team).

But that was not my point. I simply addressed the AOE heal, not the viability in group ranked.

 

That pretty much becomes the point though, they need to be made viable and that PvE heal with a spec revolving around it does not support said gametype. Can it work? Sure if you adapt towards your healer (whom dont provide ANYTHING extra over any of the other healers), why should you?

 

(Dont mean to nitpick words, in reality I'm sure we both agree - regardless of X person success in Y gametype it still doesn't make C spec viable if it faces inherent design and mehanic flaws - a good player making do should not dictate balance imo)

Edited March 27, 2014 by AdamLKvist

[Master-Nala]

Adam, what do you think the change to ground targeted AoEs will do to the effectiveness of Salvation. In my testing with Balance it makes it much more responsive to use Quake and FiB.

 

I don't quarrel with you about the need to address heals, but I'm trying to get the parameters of the question correctly. As I see it Seer has a few problems:

 

PvE & PvP

 

Over-reliance on the long cast Deliverance

Susceptibility to interrupts/lack of instants

 

PvP

 

Force management

 

Please, Adam or anyone else, give me your thoughts on this. I intend to write a draft of questions this weekend and seek comments next week.

[AdamLKvist]

Adam, what do you think the change to ground targeted AoEs will do to the effectiveness of Salvation. In my testing with Balance it makes it much more responsive to use Quake and FiB.

 

I don't quarrel with you about the need to address heals, but I'm trying to get the parameters of the question correctly. As I see it Seer has a few problems:

 

PvE & PvP

 

Over-reliance on the long cast Deliverance

Susceptibility to interrupts/lack of instants

 

PvP

 

Force management

 

Please, Adam or anyone else, give me your thoughts on this. I intend to write a draft of questions this weekend and seek comments next week.

 

That summarised it well. The double-tap AoE will be an enourmous QoL buff for DPS (FiB/Deathfield, Earthquake/..) - For the AoE heal I'm hesitant to believe that its going to make a huge difference. Of course, for face tanking it will definitely help as you wont have to focus on getting the target-marker out however as previously stated the AoE is more often than not targeted intentionally in order to "lead" targets and "anticipate" outcome.

 

I believe that the fix will do little to nothing to make the AoE heal more viable (PvP and PvE, though the PvE part is speculation). If I were you I'd summarise it like you've already begun to:

 

PvE & PvP

 

• Over-reliance on the longest cast heal in game, Deliverance
  
• Susceptibility to interrupts/lack of instants
  

 

PvP

 

• Force management
  
• Reliance on a static ability (AoE heals in spot only) in a dynamic environment (PvP always changes, no one can stay in a glowing AoE heal because one death from above/mortar volley etc would nullify the healing)
  

 

 

As an end note I would urge you to add "anti-fun" to the PvP part as well under force management. I've been healing countless of hours on my sorc/sage and the need to contiously use Noble Sacrifice/Consumption in between heals makes me feel like I'm not part of the fast gameplay but instead am forced to take a step back and just watch... There's the alternative of not using the ability but that would mean I would soon be out of force.

 

Its a situation without an upside, it simply denies me the enjoyment of healing with my sage. I miss the old days (dat cliché )

Edited March 27, 2014 by AdamLKvist

[Ilith]

Defensive cooldown should be the #1 request for PVE sages. PVPers have kiting tools but those are irrelevant in PVE. We do not have a true GCD. Every single one of our so-called defensive abilities suffers from a deadly drawback: they are interruptible and/or on the GCD and/or cost resource and/or self-stun and/or lock us out of our own skill talents when we're the victim of someone else trying to 'help' (bubble). Go look at Saber Ward, Dodge, etc. They do not cost resource, they are not channeled, and they are not on the GCD. At the very least move Unnatural Preservation off the GCD. As soon as a DPS sage takes heat in a raid, they are screwed and every single other DPS class will pull ahead because they can pop a cooldown, but we have to waste GCDs. What you can output on a parse dummy is irrelevant. Go look at actual results on bosses and you'll see other classes pull ahead because of this simple, stupid issue.

 

Huge amounts of AOE raid damage on the final bosses in operations means DPS classes with channeled abilities do far worse DPS than those with instants. Pushback is stupid in PVE. In PVP it's fine and makes sense.

 

Madness/Balance force management. Still. No one who DPSes in PVE wants to waste time off-healing, but even if you wanted to, Madness/Balance can't because they still have no Force to spare.

 

Raid utility is really lacking. This wouldn't be as big an issue if sniper shield had some sort of group lockout like Bloodthirst. Our off heals are slow and puny. You can't help with Force Bubble because of the lockout, because your bubbles are worse than a healer Sorc's, because it costs so much force and is on the GCD. No real utility compared to sniper/mara, far worse off-healing than merc, extricate/pull that can't be used on tanks, and your 1 big 'survival' cooldown is a big "F*** YOU LOL" to the rest of your group since you can't DPS or heal while it's on, and now you better keep it channeled the entire 8s duration or lose what little so-called improvement you got in 2.7. (A bonus for channeling the full 8s? Encouragement for even more self-stun? Seriously?)

[Ryenke]

Come 2.7 I agree survivability fix is not needed but to each their own...

 

You do need an entire question dedicated to healing:

 

 

• The tree was nerfed with the removal and the change of the conveyance buff that made sure that we had a 1.4-1.2 s cast on delivarance. Removing said buff broke the healing and the fun of the spec.
  

 

 

 

Resplendance/Force Surge should make a deliverance 33% faster cast and free instead of the AoE.

 

 

• The AoE is a 90% PvE spell that since launch has had limited to no use in PvP. It only promotes turtling and it does it poorly. Buffing/changing resplendance/force surge to instead give us cast alternatives other than the AoE would go a long way towards fixing this class for PvP healing.
  

 

 

PVE healer here. Please NO. Nerf Salvation like that and my place in a raid team would be much better given to commando healer.

 

From the numerous posts in the thread I understand the community's concerns are primarily PvP based. But please don't shove PVE healers under the bus with a suggestion that totally nerfs the primary reason my class has a place in a progressive raid group.

 

IMO (others milage may vary) from a PVE perspective (regarding others healer comments):

1. I'd love a shorter Deliverance cast time. As it is, unless I can pro-actively cast deliverance (i.e. I know the fight and I know what my tank will be doing next) the long cast time can mean the heal hits too late to matter (other healer already healed tank to full). I'm not asking for an instant heal, but some mitigation on that cast length would be very helpful.
   
2. Force Armor. I disagree with the comments that suggest it has limited to no utility. As a pro-active tool in raids (think TC purple AOE) it is invaluable. As an extra layer of defense for tanks and team members in light armor it can be the difference between a dead team mate and a team mate I can heal. As a PVE player I would want to see this talent go unchanged.
   
3. Force Management. Noble Sacrifice IS un-fun. I would love a different mechanic for force management (and preferably not RNG dependent - this doesn't matter often, but when resplendence doesn't proc it always seems to be at the worst possible time or happens again in the succeeding rotation).
   

[honkymonkey]

PVE healer here. Please NO. Nerf Salvation like that and my place in a raid team would be much better given to commando healer.

 

I assume "Adam" wants Resplendance/Force Surge to be used for either your aoe OR deliverance, it would be become situational how you use it in pve and of great help in pvp. And of this I would approve.

[Ryenke]

I assume "Adam" wants Resplendance/Force Surge to be used for either your aoe OR deliverance, it would be become situational how you use it in pve and of great help in pvp. And of this I would approve.

 

If I misread it, apologies. If it's an either/or, I wouldn't cheer about it (it would require more attention than I now give it) but I'd learn to use it - so I wouldn't DISapprove.

[AdamLKvist]

If I misread it, apologies. If it's an either/or, I wouldn't cheer about it (it would require more attention than I now give it) but I'd learn to use it - so I wouldn't DISapprove.

 

You didnt misunderstand, I just didnt clarify. ******monkey is correct

[Chrisweaver]

Force management for Sorc/sage healers and revivafication need to be an important part of the question. Consumption is a death sentence in ranked pvp.

 

Revivafication is not useful enough for endgame pvp and creates a problem where builds like bubble stun hybrid pre 2.0 and broken heal hybrids now are more desired.

The top Teir skills in the healing tree need to be more valuable.

 

My solution is to make a 2 point skill in the heal tree at the 6th Teir next to force surge/ resplendence that reduces consumption/noble sacrifice's health cost by 7.5/15%.

 

This gives enough point restriction that they must skill high enough that they must commit to the heal tree. But not so much that we will not be able to recieve benifits from the other trees.

 

This also makes Revivafication/Salvation less of a burden to use because there it is not as much of a burden from force management.

 

 

The only problem I can think of this not working is because of it interfering with PVE. But I am not sure how much it would really affect PVE.

[shadowflit]

Cleanse:

 

Most important: Unpredictability sucks.

 

If I am dueling a Balance Sage, then I know not to bother with my cleanse. Fine. If I see the FiB stacks and only one set of dots, I can probably assume the same. However, this requires me (as a healer) targeting the player and inspecting their buffs, as there's no guarantee the stacks will show up in the ops frame (limited number of debuffs). I probably just wasted almost as much time figuring out whether a cleanse will work as simply wasting the cleanse in the first place. In all other cases, I don't know if my cleanse will work. I can't make effective healing choices if I don't have the full picture.

 

Cleansing Dirty Fighting dots, by comparison, is fine. My cleanse has a clear (if diminished) effect, and I know that if I cleanse a second time the remaining dots will go away. This is good feedback, and good predictability. Also, only one dot is shared across specs (instead of two), so it's simpler to determine spec based on visible dots.

 

Second: Effectiveness.

 

Compared to Commandos and Scoundrels, the base cleanse is even worse post-Balance buff. Tech cleanse works on Trooper/Smuggler dots, and they get baseline physical, which is most roots! Force cleanse works on a few select abilities, and unreliably on force dots. Specced cleanse adds physical effects, which is good. But compared to the other healers our cleanse still has far fewer uses.

 

Fixes.

Unfortunately, there's not much that's Sage only in fixing things. Balance dots could be made into Dirty Fighting dots, and that would temporarily placate me, but really I'd like to see...

 

• Upgrade to debuff display. Configurable settings on the ops frame, what types of debuffs show up there and a removal of the artificial cap on debuffs displayed. Also make it clear which debuffs are cleanseable.
  
• Rework ability types and base cleanses. Remove physical from all baseline cleanse, put it into all healer spec cleanses. Then shuffle some more abilities into physical, while leaving some flavor abilities (Whirlwind and tech equivalents, for instance) requiring the appropriate type of cleanse.
  

 

Oh, and fix the bug where debuffs sometimes show up with a dark overlay (ie, almost black) in the ops frame.

 

Unrelated random idea for Barrier and the Heal tree:

When Barrier'd, radiate healing waves (a la Salvation power/range). Instead of only using Barrier as an underpowered CC break, you could spend more of those 10s in your Barrier without letting people die quite as quickly. Same deal for DPS specs with radiating damage sounds good.

Edited March 28, 2014 by shadowflit

[Erinnye]

I have to throw my support behind this one:

 

 

26) VISUAL: Many people hate Project and even more hate TK throw's animations and think they look much weaker than Sorcerer's lightning. Any chance for alternate animations or changes to make these more LORE respecting.

.

 

Having played both classes, I just have to admit that playing as a Sorcerer is just more visually satisfying. I prefer a Sage's Turbulence to Thundering Blast, which seems almost anti-climactic, honestly, but the rest I have to give to the Sorcerer in terms of, "Yep, that looks like it'll hurt." Only real suggestion I have for Project would be a much larger chunk of debris, or perhaps multiple pieces at a time, while still only hitting once. Telekinetic throw, I honestly don't have much to offer. It looks like a minor annoyance to be bombarded by pebbles, rather than a solid portion of our dps. Only thing that comes to mind would be something similar to the portion of the "Hope," Trailer where Satele Shan is forcing Malgus into the wall before seeing just how far through the mountain he can go. I'm not entirely sure how to visually represent that in-game, but I'd give it my support.

 

As to the rest of that list from the post, I have to say nice work. I don't PvP a great deal, but all the suggestions sound reasonable, and all of the PvE stuff sounds good as well. Wish I had more to add to the discussion, but I'll leave it to people who are more knowledgeable.

[Dyvim]

I have to throw my support behind this one:

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post

 

26) VISUAL: Many people hate Project and even more hate TK throw's animations and think they look much weaker than Sorcerer's lightning. Any chance for alternate animations or changes to make these more LORE respecting.

.

 

Having played both classes, I just have to admit that playing as a Sorcerer is just more visually satisfying....

 

Hundreds if not thousands of players have made the same observation. The animations are lackluster, weak, require an interactive environment that the engine cant support, and are more in line with what a Sith would do than a jedi. In SIX MOVIES not ONE JEDI threw a rock or pebbles. NOT ONCE. Yet in this game it is somehow the hallmark, pair of jedi signature moves. That is unacceptable, and has been since they were rolled out in beta, where players complained about them as soon as they saw the light of day. Since this is the thread now, seems right to put specific proposals under the devs eyes, again. Realizing that some people like junk and pebbles, and they have been in the game a while, I have made this proposal, which I will excerpt with the specific options below the link:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=718365

 

This proposal is for alternate animations, purchasable with Cartel Coins, for two consular skills, project and telekinetic throw. The underlying functions and stats for these skills would remain UNCHANGED. With the mirror design paradigm of this game in mind, where identical or like powers simply had new animations slapped on top of them in order to mirror classes, the concept of alternate animations seems entrenched into this game already. Project and Throw currently have snicker-worthy junk, rocks and pebbles animations that strike many as thoroughly un-jedi like and unpowerful. Moreover, in contrast with the lightning on the sith side, the coolness factor gap is huge. There have been complaints and dissatisfaction with these junk animations and the theme it creates for jedi consular's since the earliest days of beta.

 

With all the alternate animations for things like out-of combat rejuvenation, the cartel market is the perfect place to allow players to customize the look and feel of their jedi AWAY from a junk tossing, pebble throwing fred flintsone, WoW-ish earth shaman reject. Also, people that are happy with the current animations could keep them.

 

While there are MANY possibilities, I have limited my proposed replacements to ani’s that are already in the game, in some way, shape or form. I am also trying to focus on canon abilities that are more light side oriented than junk throwing, which we saw every sith do in the movies, much more than jedi, and more than sith lightning even.

 

The proposed replacements:

 

Project:

 

1) Force Burst: The Inquisitor companion, Ashara Zavros, a fallen padawan, has a skill called Force Burst. It is the best mirror animation for Shock I have seen in the game. It is instant, has a quick hand gesture, and has no projectile...the target is hit with force energy...almost exactly like what shock does....it is described in the tooltip as "A powerful burst of force energy that deals kinetic damage...". Here is a photo that compares the two, Force Burst and Shock, side by side:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8731/forceburstvsshock.jpg

 

2) Electric Judgment (aka Emerald Fire) - green, more concentrated sparcs or arcs of lightning would be very cool, and are canon (but rare) for jedi. Nice analog for Shock. Picture a more concentrated arc...more focused. A green colored version of the Trooper's Ion Pulse, for example. Canon reference to it for info… http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electric_Judgment

 

"A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning." ―Darth Plagueis

 

Concept for what it could look like as an arc:

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q639/knox1709/EmeraldArc.jpg"]http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q639/knox1709/EmeraldArc.jpg[/url]

 

3) Saber Dance: Replace project with a saber throw on steroids...motion blurred and bad ***....consulars are the ones that can throw things and yet they can’t throw one of the MOST deadly things in the universe, that happens to ALREADY be in THEIR HAND - their lightsaber???? People have long complained that cons/sages use their saber almost NONE. Where here is a chance to change that.... That makes sense...also, a double-bladed throw for shadows would rock. Also, if the devs were worried about distinguishing it from other saber throws, again, this should be more refined....so let them throw the hilt and ignite the blade at impact, or some other such affect of being able to remotely ignite the blade. Would look awesome and distinguish it from other throws.

 

4) FORCE TREMOR: I knew there was a reason I liked the name Force Tremor...it is ALREADY in the GAME....AGAIN. This time Kira has it, and it looks very good. I think it is a PBAoE, but the animation itself would be AWESOME as a retooled Project replacement. Kira makes a very cool Hand motion, with force effects, where she reaches up into the air, then slams her hand down...and then the ground quakes and splits as the affected target has particles around him....here is a pic of the start and the end to refresh people's memories:

 

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q639/knox1709/ForceTremor.jpg"]http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q639/knox1709/ForceTremor.jpg[/url]

 

 

Telekinetic Throw (pebblestorm):

 

1) Force (Burst) Throw: It turns out that the sith side is full of all the good jedi ani's...the Agent has a companion named Raina Temple...and she is force sensitive...and she ALSO has a power called Force Burst...with ANOTHER animation, different from Ashara's. And this animation is exactly what some people had envisioned when suggesting a pebblestorm, err Throw, replacement...it needs to be looped to pulse as a channeled effect, right now it is instant. The particles in the animation could also stand to be more substantial, or beefed up....

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1658/forceburst.jpg

 

 

2) Emerald Fire: (version of Electric Judgment) There is some variance in the idea of what EJ could look like….Plo Kloon’s was yellow…Luke Skywalker's was green…so anyway, it would be easy enough to have a Throw replacement that was more Emerald Fire Lightning like, and would like like this:

http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q639/knox1709/EmeraldFire.jpg"]http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q639/knox1709/EmeraldFire.jpg[/url]

 

3) FORCE TREMOR (channeled): From Ultimas, an idea I'll label Force Tremor: "I say a good replacement for Telekinetic Throw would be a mini-Force Quake that targets a single enemy, Channeled damage and a more bad*** animation. I'm all in on the project replacement. EDIT: I added Kira's Force Tremor above as another option for a project replacement, but this would be a great channeled ani, too, as I see it as a combination of Force Quake and Force Tremor....

 

 

How it would work:

 

Here is a simple, dirty mockup of what the "p" Abilities window would look like with Emerald Fire (Electric Judgment) and Saber Dance on the Consular tab - they could just as easily be on the Legacy tab:

 

http://imageshack.com/a/img585/8482/m4im.jpg

 

I referenced Emerald Fire/Electric Judgment above and linked to canon info about it - EF is an obvious alternate for Throw/pebblestorm. Saber Dance would be an alternate for Project. As the consular version of a saber throw, its hallmark would be MORE elegance and control than the knight versions, who are not as adept at telekinetics. These alternative animations would be slottable on your toolbars, like any other skill. You could even put an alternate right next to its original. It would be the same things as putting two copies of the same skills next to each other...they share the same cooldown, etc. They are functionally identical, they just LOOK different because they have a different animation.

 

For example, Project has the upheaval talent, where you get a chance to pull up a second piece of magical junk for additional damage...Saber Dance would handle this with a quick boomerang second hit, after its first hit on the target. Without the second hit proc, it would just return normally. With Force Burst as a Project alternate, the double hit would look like a "double pump", just like Shock does now. Electric Judgment would handle it with a second arc of force power.

 

And again, these are OPTIONAL, PURCHASABLE...win win win. And there is no reason you couldn't provide players with multiple options...the game is aging, we have all seen the same ani's a BILLION times....why not give players some choice and a VERY cool way to customize their toons a bit? And why not start with the most lackluster ani's?

Edited March 28, 2014 by Dyvim

[AdrianDmitruk]

I see you whining about healing constantly and rightfully so. However regarding the knockback you are wrong.

 

- We have the furthest range on our knockback in game

- We have it in a cone which means we can knockback individual players and not break CC

 

A sage healer does not need more help to kite (other than bugfix rubberbanding). Im sorry. Thats not going to happen, if you find yourself in need of more tools to stay at range thats simply a matter of poor teammates, not poor gameplay on your part. What you DO NEED is a way to get your heals off without having to channel 2.4 sec and being interruptable with everything. A sage needs more potential to stand steadfast than to kite.

 

The knockback is not the answer.

 

Honestly I think a quick study of sorcerer PVP healing history will help reconcile our two viewpoints. (Note: I'm using sage/sorc terms interchangeably here because I have both. TL;DR at bottom)

 

Pre 1.2, corruption heals were fine in PVP. We could get large heals off much more quickly, and our static barrier absorbed much more relative to health pools/expected enemy DPS at the time. The combination of our static barrier and a procced Deliverance gave us excellent burst healing. The ability to get a shorter cast time on our main heal allowed us to compress our time turret healing so we could move around and reposition. And all of that was before exploiting the double proc deliverance bug (which I refrained from doing on the principle of the matter). Back then it was our AOE heal that always got interrupted, but we were left with excellent single target healing and the AOE made an excellent fake cast.

 

Of course we both know that 1.2 was no mere bugfix. Bioware didn't know and/or was too lazy to bugfix, so they completely destroyed the proc that allowed us any kind of meaningful heal output under pressure.

 

Obviously we were left with the longest hardcasted "nuke heal" in the game, had no way of shortening it to a more reasonable cast time, and therefore we needed more space between ourselves and melee to get that (or any) cast off. Enter Overload and enter Electric Bindings, then only 14 points up in the lightning tree. After 1.2 sorc healers started to trickle over to lightning hybrids to pick up Electric Bindings, which made Overload capable of buying enough time to get a cast or two off. And for only 3-4 points more, we could pick up bubblemez (the variance depending on if we also wanted Chain Lightning). If we were already committed to giving up Salvation to trade it for kiting ability and space to cast, why not? Thus, even before Bioware buffed bubblemez into Team Bubble-hard-stun, the much-QQed about hybrid emerged into the mainstream.

 

(Coincidentally, the emergent lightning hybrids also addressed another 1.2 nerf, the nerf to full corruption's Force management--which while a necessary evil at the time for PVE was utterly disastrous for PVP.)

 

This is why you see me mentioning Overload so much. Its use as a healer arose as a direct response to the 1.2 nerf to our cast times as healers. If your solution of returning our Deliverance proc to pre 1.2 (with proper bugfix) addresses the root of the problem, my constant references to fixing Overload address the stem of the problem. You propose to reduce our cast times; I propose giving us the ability to buy more time and space to cast. The difference in our approach is mainly accounted for by my belief that we will never, ever see the cast time nerfs from 1.2 reverted. Bioware had the metrics that showed sorcs rerolling operatives and the remaining sorcs running bubblestun, not full corruption, in high level PVP. Bioware either knew not what to do with these metrics, or they were unwilling to admit their mistake by reverting some or all of the 1.2 nerfs.

 

Of course with 2.0 Bioware intended to destroy the bubblestun hybrid. As part of that, they moved Electric Bindings up so high in Lightning that healers could no longer get it at all. Of course this was not the first Overload nerf (that would go to the 360-to-cone change) but it perhaps had the most damaging effect as we lost the ability to keep the melee train far enough away to get a cast off. They also for the first time since 1.2 recognized that corruption had some shutdown issues, but rather than address the root of such issues by revisiting the 1.2 nerfs, they tried random band-aids of buffs. Polarity Shift accessible to healers, reduced/insta cast salvation, and shortened channel time on Innervate combined to give skilled full corruption healers some weird Frankensteinian kind of viability, though for 99% of the player base the operative healer was still better. It took a skilled sorc healer to equal a mediocre op healer but a very skilled sorc healer, with support from his team, could match a supported, skilled op healer. This state of semi-balance lasted from 2.0 to 2.4.

 

Unfortunately the introduction of arenas with 2.4, the removal of 8v8 ranked, and inability to filter arenas out of regular queue drastically changed the meta in ways that utterly killed what remained of corruption viability. Our team support was suddenly cut in half, and we could no longer be crosshealed when using Force Barrier, nor could we rely on the other healer to "cover us" when using it by healing other teammates. With no ability to respawn--not even the use of battle rez (i.e. skill) permitted--we lost our decision-making ability to allow a teammate to die for "the greater good" (i.e. I need to decide whether to heal that DPS or focus on healing myself and my tank so we can hold the objective long enough for the DPS to come back--can't do that in arena). The more unforgiving environment chokes off our ability to use LOS as a survival tool (a survival tool we are balanced around, mind) as we must stay within LOS of the team to heal. The bubblestun hybrid, or rather the shell that remains of it, can be adequate to address some of our shortcomings (like durability and lack of CC) in some kinds of matches but of course the sacrifice of heal throughput costs us in the most competitive matches, which we can only prolong, not win. (In those same competitive matches, you're probably against a team who can burn down a full corruption sorc healer in 30 seconds as opposed to a bubblestunner being able to prolong the match to 3 minutes by virtue of higher survivability.) Of course since you referenced my constant whining about sorc healers for cause, you know that our shortcomings in the new arena meta are well documented.

 

TL;DR: Either reverting 1.2 nerfs to cast times or buffing Overload to buy us more time/space to cast could help with our issues, considering use of the latter became more prevalent/necessary in response to the former. Reverting 1.2 is likely to be more effective but I believe it's impossible to convince Bioware to ever revert it, hence the various assorted changes/feedback I've suggested.

Edited March 28, 2014 by AdrianDmitruk

[ajiehblr]

Hey folks!

 

Since the Class Representative is no longer around, we will be considering the questions that will be submitted by Master-Nala as the "official" ones. Keep up the discussions!

 

-tw

 

May I ask you why Sorc\Sage players will get answers for question from some random member of the forum while all other class will get answers from their class rep? You think it's our fault that Sorc\Sage Representative quit the game? And why you have chose mister Master-Nala among other members of this forum?

[THE_Qh]

May I ask you why Sorc\Sage players will get answers for question from some random member of the forum while all other class will get answers from their class rep? You think it's our fault that Sorc\Sage Representative quit the game? And why you have chose mister Master-Nala among other members of this forum?

 

PT's also created their questions as a group effort because their representative was nowhere to be seen

[Darth_Dreselus]

I really like the idea of Resplendence being used to lower cast time of Deliverance, but maybe only like 0.33 second per stack to achieve the pre 1.2 situation of 1.5s cast (1.2-1.3 with 180s [yes I am slowly changing to the new way, 180 = 78]).

 

In a way this would kind of synergise the tree. At the moment Conveyance is used almost exclusively with Healing Trance. Casting Rejuvenate to then buff Healing trance which in turns buffs your Deliverance/Salvation would be far more interesting.

 

Alternatively either remove or drastically reduce the cooldown of Rejuvenate, maybe 3s cd, so it can be used every other GCD. Possibly tie this to a talent high in the healing tree (e.g Force Warden) as not to impact DPS hybrids (but then again Kolto Bomb is on 5s). As a result it could not only be used as a maintenance heal, but also used with both Healing Trance and then a Deliverance or Salvation, somewhat helping Force Issues.

 

Obviously these changes would outright buff the healing output, but Sages are already starting to lag behind. As a way of balancing this, the actually healing done by the affected abilities could be lowered.

 

My third suggestion is doing something, anything with Benevolence. Give it a hot like Kolto Pack or something.

 

But this is a question thread not a brainstorming thread so as to questions/issues.

 

Healing:

- Why do we need to take away health to gain Force, thus shooting ourselves in the foot in PvP, when we already take the most amount of damage?

- Why do we have a useless heal?

- Why do we have a talent with options (Conveyance) when only really one option is being used?

 

For DPS, I like the 2.7 changes so I guess just a DCD or the pushback on MC.

 

May I ask you why Sorc\Sage players will get answers for question from some random member of the forum while all other class will get answers from their class rep? You think it's our fault that Sorc\Sage Representative quit the game? And why you have chose mister Master-Nala among other members of this forum?

 

Because he took initiative when Nibbon left. Why are you so butthurt about it?

Edited March 28, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[Master-Nala]

OK, great discussion all. It looks like a consensus is coming around to at least two questions:

 

 

1) A question regarding survival tools (DCD, taking Mend or Bubble of the GCD, etc.)

 

2) A question regarding Seer spec specifically (Cast time, ability to be shut down, force management in PvP specifically)

 

I'm still looking to see where people feel strongly in creating a #3. DPS doesn't seem to be terrible on either TK or Balance and we've gotten a lot of attention recently in that regard. I will be working on coalescing some of the comments here into one coherent question this weekend. We have some time left, so keep the discussion flowing.

[Master-Nala]

May I ask you why Sorc\Sage players will get answers for question from some random member of the forum while all other class will get answers from their class rep? You think it's our fault that Sorc\Sage Representative quit the game? And why you have chose mister Master-Nala among other members of this forum?

 

One of the reasons I was reluctant to do this was because of posts like this. The answer is that I asked to be able to submit the questions because no one, and I mean NO ONE was stepping up to do it. Read the class rep thread. Nibbon got like 90%+ of the votes with no clear second in sight. He's gone. He said he didn't want to do the job any longer. Same with Psirebral the Sorcerer rep.

 

And I take issue with the "random forum poster" I am Master-Nala, Sage Supreme of Harbinger!

Edited March 28, 2014 by Master-Nala

[MarsherMeow]

One of the reasons I was reluctant to do this was because of posts like this. The answer is that I asked to be able to submit the questions because no one, and I mean NO ONE was stepping up to do it. Read the class rep thread. Nibbon got like 90%+ of the votes with no clear second in sight. He's gone. He said he didn't want to do the job any longer. Same with Psirebral the Sorcerer rep.

 

And I take issue with the "random forum poster" I am Master-Nala, Sage Supreme of Harbinger!

 

I hope you can fill Nibbons shoes and present some really decent questions that get a good answers from Bioware. You seem like you are putting a lot effort into this though so thats good

 

Buffing the cast time for Deliverance with Resplendence would be great but I would also like to see the return of the full healing spec tree in ranked PvP. Since the Merc / Commando buffs they have also become really strong AoE healers to.. if Sage / Sorcs are intended to be the AoE healer (which I guess we can assume we are since our single target heals are lacking compared to the other healers) then it would be nice to have more utility for that role.

[Ycoga]

Hi Master Nala. I'm very keen to have zero redundancy in this round of questions. I've analysed the possible questions and reduced duplication, eliminated questions that have already been asked, and questions that can be dodged by BW. Please have a look through my suggestions and consider using them in your preparations.

 

The following spoiler section contains a long list of pros and cons about the list of questions you proposed. A summary section follows:

 

SURVIVABILITY

 

1) Egress baseline

Status: Coming in 2.7 but many players have expressed that the sacrifice is too great for Balance/Lightning

 

2)Defensive cooldown

Status: Barrier is receiving a nice buff, egress as stated, no other changes leaving an open question about whether the class still needs a defensive cooldown

These questions are a waste of an opportunity. Please don't ask them! The community needs time with 2.7 to see if these are still relevant. I think that BW has a high chance of simply saying 'wait and see' in this case.

 

BALANCE ISSUES : HEALING AND DAMAGE

 

3)Pushback for TK spec (Mind Crush, TK Throw) rotational abilities

Status: Rob Hinkle is looking into it - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7317032#edit7317032

Dont ask this, because he will only report that they're already looking in to pushback.

 

4)Execute phase change (to project/DoTs/etc.)

Status - part of the overall discussion of Sage DPS but nothing in the offing.

Please don't ask this, because he'll say its already being considered for next update.

 

5)More sustained DPS for Balance

Status - part of the overall discussion of Sage DPS but nothing in the offing. See http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=730319

Please don't ask this, because he'll say its already being considered for next update.

 

6) PVP: What do you think about the 0/30/16 hybrid?

Status - Not sure what the concern is here?

The question will reveal:

1. What BW thinks about hybrids

2. What BW thinks about hybrids in arenas

3. What BW thinks about a healer/dps Sage, and how the capabilities of that build match their design parameters for the class

 

7)Pure specs v. Hybrids Pure specs don't seem as worthwhile with such a viable hybrid available.

Status - The devs appear to be mindful of this

They are mindful, so please don't ask the question. Also, it's a statement, not a question.

 

8) PVE: Will you consider buffing the bonus damage done by Mental Momentum (the proc'd Turbulence blast) by 20%, up to a total of 50%, to compensate for the longer ICD of TelekineticWave; and therefore the slightly reduced DPS output of telekinetics after 2.7?

Status: No changes at present

This should not be asked, because any questions about damage will be dealt with by saying 'we're looking at it for next release'

 

9) PvP: Will you do anything about the Seer/Balance Hybrid that is slotted as DPS, but effectively gives a team a(nother) healer in Arenas.

Status: No changes at present

This is a duplicate of the '23-0-23' question above. As two people have mentioned it, it's probably worth asking.

 

10)Restore Force Stun's original 30m range.

Status: No changes at present

Please don't ask this - it's too specific and too open to a simple 'no' response.

 

11)Benevolence's force cost

Status: No changes at present

 

12)Deliverance's cast time

Status: No changes at present

Please don't ask these, they're already looking into pushback and these will definitely be affected by it.

 

13)Force Mend/Force Armor off GCD as talents

Status: No changes at present

This is worth asking about because sages have no abilities off the GCD.

 

14) "cross bubbling" penalizes teams with more than 1 Sorc. What I mean is, if I as a Sorc in healing spec am bubbled by another Sorc, I don't get the 1%/sec hot on my Sorc. Similarly, if I as a lightning Sorc get someone else's bubble, no bubble stun for me. It would be kind of cool if these effects were changed to something like we recieve the 1%/sec hot/bubble stun on ourselves as long as ANY static barrier is placed on us, provided we are specced for it.

Status: No changes at present

This is worth asking.

 

15) Make our knockback push enemies further then 10 meters so it would not be so easy to counter in pvp. Reduce the range of the cone if it would be too overpowered.

Status: No changes at present

This is a suggestion, not a question. Please don't ask it.

 

16) PVP - if consumption is not going to be off the GCD, could they at least buff the set bonus so that no health would be lost by using consumption

Status: No changes at present

I guess this is worth asking, but I'd rather not have Equipment questions in a Class thread... Set Bonii augment a class, they don't define it.

 

17) Healer - if static barrier is to be our proactive heal, maybe for healers, they could add a talent that puts a hot on a player after static barrier is destroyed. It would help a little against burst mechanics.

Status: No changes at present

Another suggestion, quite narrow in scope and based on an assumption that static barrier is 'our proactive heal'. This question will simply be rebuffed if it's not our 'proactive heal'. Please don't ask it.

 

18) DoTs immediately breaking mez bubble

Status: No changes at present

Please don't ask; it's not directly Sage related.

 

20)TK's PvP issues (easy to interrupt two of its major abilities)

Status: Changes in 2.7 will help a bit with consistency, but pushback remains a serious concern for the spec

Please don't ask this, pushback is being looked into.

 

21) Resurgence cooldown

Status: No changes at present

What's the question?

 

22)LOS to make them pay, doesn't allow us to do our job (Healing or DPS)

Status: No changes at present

This question has been asked before and I see little benefit in digging it up again this time around.

 

[

B]QOL, INCLUDING FORCE MANAGEMENT[/b]

23)Force Management

Status: Balance is receiving changes via TK Focal Point that should allow management to be easier. TK does not have a problem here. Healing can rely on Noble Sacrifice in PvE, but unusable in PvP.

I'd suggest the following question: 'What is BW adding or changing, for Sage healers, that reduces the risk of them using Noble Sacrifice in PVP? If nothing; then why?'

 

RANDOM/FUN

24)Using the Lightsaber

25)Invisible Lightsaber (since it is only a stat stick)

Good questions that have long been unanswered. Please ask.

26) VISUAL: Many people hate Project and even more hate TK throw's animations and think they look much weaker than Sorcerer's lightning. Any chance for alternate animations or changes to make these more LORE respecting

Subjective - please don't ask. (some people like the animation, others don't. No consensus).

27) PVP + PVE: Will you take another look at WP bonus damage being removed from melee attacks after 2.7, to see if your original rationale for removing it still applies? If it does - what was your original rationale?

This is worth asking because we'd get a solid answer on why it was removed - the design intentions for the class.

 

 

Summary:

I think the following questions should be asked:

 

6) PVP: What do you think about the 23-0-23 hybrid?

Status - Not sure what the concern is here?

The question will reveal:

1. What BW thinks about hybrids

2. What BW thinks about hybrids in arenas

3. What BW thinks about a healer/dps Sage, and how the capabilities of that build match their design parameters for the class

4. As this hybrid is the best able to both H2F and DPS, is it their perfect Sage build?

 

You could rephrase the question to: 'The 23-0-23 hybrid build has great H2F and DPS capabilities. It can both heal up and do some damage - but it heals less than a full healer, and does less DPS than a full DPS. Is this the perfect Sage build, according to BW's original design for the Sage class?'

 

9) PvP: Will you do anything about the Seer/Balance Hybrid that is slotted as DPS, but effectively gives a team a(nother) healer in Arenas.

Status: No changes at present

This is a duplicate of the '23-0-23' question above. As two people have mentioned it, the above question is probably worth asking.

 

13)Force Mend/Force Armor off GCD as talents

Status: No changes at present

This is worth asking about because sages have no abilities off the GCD. Might rephrase it to: 'What's the design decision to provide Sages no abilities that are off the GCD, in particular damage-mitigating and/or healing ones? A good example is Force Armor, which would be useful to have off the GCD. In your answer, please provide comparisons to the Sentinel's Pacify and Riposte abilities'.

 

14) "cross bubbling" penalizes teams with more than 1 Sorc. What I mean is, if I as a Sorc in healing spec am bubbled by another Sorc, I don't get the 1%/sec hot on my Sorc. Similarly, if I as a lightning Sorc get someone else's bubble, no bubble stun for me. It would be kind of cool if these effects were changed to something like we recieve the 1%/sec hot/bubble stun on ourselves as long as ANY static barrier is placed on us, provided we are specced for it.

Status: No changes at present

This is worth asking. Might rephrase to: 'Please could you change Force Armor so that, if we're specced for them, we receive the benefits of increased protection, Heal over time and Kinetic Collapse when someone else casts Force Armor on us? If not - why?'

 

23)Force Management

Status: Balance is receiving changes via TK Focal Point that should allow management to be easier. TK does not have a problem here. Healing can rely on Noble Sacrifice in PvE, but unusable in PvP.

I'd suggest the following question: 'How highly does BW value the use of Noble Sacrifice as a means to regenerate Force in PVP, when caster is in full heal spec? Do you have any tips to players about the correct usage of this ability in PVP; or instructions on how to survive a co-ordinated assault by using Noble Sacrifice?'

 

RANDOM/FUN

24)Using the Lightsaber

25)Invisible Lightsaber (since it is only a stat stick)

Interesting things that have long been unanswered. Please ask. Might rephrase to: 'Why was there a design decision to reduce the number of lightsaber animations in the Sage class, as compared to a class like Sentinel? The fact that it's ranged shouldn't factor in your answer, because of the existence of sentinel's Twin Saber throw, and the Guardian's Saber Throw; as well as Dispatch and Crippling Throw. Will you be adding or changing lightsaber animations for Sage so that they're more like a Jedi and less like a Wizard?'

 

27) PVP + PVE: Will you take another look at WP bonus damage being removed from melee attacks after 2.7, to see if your original rationale for removing it still applies? If it does - what was your original rationale?

This is worth asking because we'd get a solid answer on why it was removed - the design intentions for the class.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Ycoga

[ajiehblr]

One of the reasons I was reluctant to do this was because of posts like this. The answer is that I asked to be able to submit the questions because no one, and I mean NO ONE was stepping up to do it. Read the class rep thread. Nibbon got like 90%+ of the votes with no clear second in sight. He's gone. He said he didn't want to do the job any longer. Same with Psirebral the Sorcerer rep.

 

And I take issue with the "random forum poster" I am Master-Nala, Sage Supreme of Harbinger!

 

I have no personal issue with you or any other members of this forum but it's strange for me that they didn't ask comunity about question and just pop up in random thread and say: OK you will do it. It seems like they don't care about Class Representative system and don't see a big problem that Nibbon and Psirebral have left the game after their answers. Maybe the reason that NO ONE is doing this job is because they lost confidence in dev and don't believe we can get any real answer? Or because they ignore 1000 replies in Sorc thread? Honestly I don't know... and I want to hear from dev why? Why they chose you and not Orderken who made healing Guide for Sages or any other member? Only because you started this thread? Well, that's very significant reason I guess...

[Master-Nala]

I have no personal issue with you or any other members of this forum but it's strange for me that they didn't ask comunity about question and just pop up in random thread and say: OK you will do it. It seems like they don't care about Class Representative system and don't see a big problem that Nibbon and Psirebral have left the game after their answers. Maybe the reason that NO ONE is doing this job is because they lost confidence in dev and don't believe we can get any real answer? Or because they ignore 1000 replies in Sorc thread? Honestly I don't know... and I want to hear from dev why? Why they chose you and not Orderken who made healing Guide for Sages or any other member? Only because you started this thread? Well, that's very significant reason I guess...

 

The reason is that I asked. It's really that simple. I don't know Orderken, but he didn't do anything to get these questions going. Nobody did. I don't know if you've paid that much attention to the class rep thing, but this isn't uncommon. Several of the reps quit and it fell to someone taking the time out to do the work.

 

I don't take any offense at your post, but I have been very active in the Sage forums. I have tried to get the community to get serious about asking these questions. And heck I have two Sages, and two Sorcerers, I know the class as well as anyone. Your post is a veiled accusation of unfairness. Well, it's not unfair that if a job exists and only one person applies for it that they get the job. This thread was started a month and a half ago. More than long enough for someone to step up if they had objections or wanted the job themselves.

 

Respectfully, could you please stay on topic. I'm trying to get these questions put together and you can help us or continue being a spoiler. I would prefer to have your opinion and thoughts about the class than rehashing how I came to be the person submitting the questions.

[Master-Nala]

Hi Master Nala. I'm very keen to have zero redundancy in this round of questions. I've analysed the possible questions and reduced duplication, eliminated questions that have already been asked, and questions that can be dodged by BW. Please have a look through my suggestions and consider using them in your preparations.

 

I would agree with that. So far we're looking at two very different topics:

 

1) Survival/Defensive Cooldowns

 

I personally think this might not be the best use of a question, but it is by far the most complained about issue.

 

2) Seer (Healing) specific issues

 

I'm trying to boil a few issues into one here, such as being shutdown easily and force management.

 

 

The third issue is still open. There are a lot of questions concerning hybrids as well as fun and visual issues left remaining. I don't have a strong opinion about what that third question should be.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Master-Nala