I didn't thing GS could be MORE unbalanced.

[Brewski]

Have you ever seen a scout at the top?

 

As a primary scout pilot who is often at or near the top of the scoreboard for kills, assists and damage I find this a bit amusing. Not that I am a great scout pilot, as I consider myself good but nowhere near the upper echelons of my class, and yet I still get MVP in these areas.

 

An expert gunship pilot will rack up a lot of kills in any match, but then so do expert scouts and even expert strike pilots. (Damn you Thirsha!) However, most pilot do not fall anywhere near the expert level, and most gunship pilots are easy kills in TDM, at least so far. They can be a bit harder to find, since you can't just orbit a sat at 15k until you see them, but once found they are still just as easy to kill.

 

Now multiple coordinated and well skilled gunship pilots an be a tough nut to crack. However that's also true of any well coordinated 4-man group. About the only way to effectively counter them is with a team of your own.

 

Matchmaking could help with that a bit, but it's still a work in progress it would seem.

[Fractalsponge]

I'm pretty sure matchmaking still doesn't work, judging from what happened on Shadowlands last night.

 

But yeah, I've seen plenty of scouts top the boards (I do this a lot when I'm running my Sting, and I've seen players like Lormaru and Visas do it as well). Much rarer to see strikes up at the top, but I've seen it happen.

 

I can't quite tell if the TDM maps suit gunships or not. Depends largely on how organized your team is I suppose. I had a turkey shoot for the first two maps, then got chased all around the next time TDM popped on the mesas map and barely hit 35k.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Fractalsponge

[McAllist]

During Preferred Access... sure, gunships were overpowered... things were weirdly not focused on dogfighting and focused on ship building and turret making for fun point-and-click adventures (i.e. as a gunship, you point at something, then click until they die).

 

But man... now Starfighter matches are basically Deathmatch Gunship matches and Domination Bomber matches.

 

Who playtested this stuff?

 

 

/signed

Exactly my thoughts!

[Kintosi]

Who playtested this stuff?

 

I did. and i told them it was broken back in october. so what do they do? Nothing. then add team deathmatch and one-shot 45 second god mode powerups.

[LegoUniverseBC]

Then you haven't faced a good Gunship in a DM

 

You haven't played against me then.

Countering gunships in a Flashfire are easy.

[-Streven-]

These are L2P issues period. As the game matures and people start flying better rather than come crying on the forums you will see less abuse of gunships or any other fotm and more competitive matches. This game takes lots of skill which takes some time time to develop but I've yet seen anything even close to being unbeatable or impossible to counter and I've seen all the tactics mentioned. Sure teams get stacked and in those cases take your beating and try new tactics to see what might work. As people get better that will happen less. Unless you scare everyone away with all these complaint threads.

 

For goodness sakes quit encouraging other people to not play. If you aren't having fun get with someone who can teach you.

[AK_Snowbat]

ya, gunships were already OP for close range and the ability to somehow stop on a dime in space..not this? bombers are way way to op..

[Prydin_Thule]

I know people hate the L2P posts but honestly the more matches you play =ship req and fleet req which then = upgrades and new ships.

 

As you progress you learn your strengths and weaknesses and what ship fits your play style. Once this occurs you will notice you gain more kills and contribute more.

 

Yes some ships have strong abilities but there are counters to these such as EMP and scouts destroy GS pretty easily. Speed is your friend in that fight honestly it's not hard to kill them especially if you can harass them till another pilot shows up.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Prydin_Thule

[reclipsed]

ya, gunships were already OP for close range and the ability to somehow stop on a dime in space..not this? bombers are way way to op..

 

Let's see what the do not have.

 

-barrel roll or any other type of quick escape

-maneuverability/ boost seems shorter than Gunships (maybe just my own thinking)

-D field

 

 

You get in your Strike Figher or Gunship and light them up. They may have tougher skin and shields but they need it. Their mines and drones can be dispatched by pilots that have a keen eye. EMP should be a nice balancing counter once ppl start maxing the tier out and practice.

 

 

not going the L2p route, but adaptation is the key to success

[SavingPrincess]

People seem to not understand the concept of "balance."

 

This is not a "L2P' thread. I can (and do) dominate in matches by choosing my GS or Bomber (not even geared). It's easy. I have to work 20% as hard as I do with other ships of equal geared levels. It's not about "well be 120% more amazing of a player with an inferior ship!"

 

Fighting games are my first love, balance is an issue that we discuss there probably even more actively and in-depth than the MMO PVP community. We aggregate data and construct formulas to create charts of characters based off their effectiveness against the group, and against certain matchups... etc. So, forgive me, but I"m going to make a fighting game analogy.

 

Gunships and bombers in GSF, harken back to the old days of "boss characters." Back in the OG Street Fighter 2 days... characters like Balrog, Vega, Bison and Sagat had higher damage outputs and higher health which made them effectively harder to fight than the other fighters in the game. They were this way because there was supposed to be an artificial increase in difficulty when facing these end-game type characters. In today's world, Sagat is more "balanced" to Ryu for instance, vs. what he would have been in the original game.

 

This amounts to the fact that an equally skilled Ryu player can contend evenly with an equally skilled Sagat player. This is balance.

 

In GSF, an equally skilled Gunship player vs. an equally skilled scout will always dominate. Sure, a "noob" GS player against a well geared experienced scout won't stand a chance, but that doesn't equate to "balance." If you extrapolate, this means with two players at the peak of their game, the Gunship will always win in 1v1.

 

I believe this is the case because they tried to take an "MMO" mentality based on trinity, and tried to apply them to space combat. This in my opinion was the mistake, because at present, especially without the concept of "stealth," a long range, high damage, high shielded ship will always win against a lower damage, lower range, lower shielded ship, even if that ship is "faster" and "more maneuverable." Why is this? Because in deathmatch, you don't get points for "maneuvering." (in domination GS's are far less of a concern because they are easy to avoid entirely and win the match). In Deathmatch, if a GS is having trouble pinning down a scout, then they just pick the easier target(s), take out 3-4 of them even if the scout gets them... this is also assuming no one else is also trying to dogfight the scout. Gunships will kill 1-2 targets that are dog-fighting someone else, if they get noticed, they pop behind an asteroid and just circle it until the pursuer decides to give up or go after someone else, then they set up shop again. Other fighters on the opposing team will be focused on being involved in their dogfights and because of the GS' high shield factor, view other scouts and fighters as easier targets.

 

These issues of imbalance (which is what it is) can be solved quite easily. Here's a couple ideas how:

 

1. Stealth - This does not nerf gunships in any way, but what it does do is allow close range fighters to enter that 10,000m to 5,000m range where the gunship is basically invincible and can put out the most safe damage. This also means that a close range fighter does not have to completely spec themselves to only focus on gunships (leaving them horribly spec'd to deal with other fighters).

2. Long-range munitions for close range fighters - There's no current reason why a close range fighter shouldn't be able to opt for a small payload, long range munitions option. Even giving the scout class ships an option for 4 10,000m range proton torpedoes (as their secondary weapon slot) can greatly help disrupt the currently imbalanced GS tactics.

3. Remove quick-escape options for gunships while upping their standard dog-fighting maneuverability - Removing options like "barrel roll" for GS' in favor of more defensive options would make the "camp/escape" method a much less frequented option. This would also make Gunships (in my opinion) more "fun" to play if they also in-turn upped their dogfighting capabilities a bit.

 

There are probably others. If people want to respond "L2P" that's fine... it makes them feel better or whatever, but I know how to play, I can be the one dominating in my gunship/bomber and farm my purple points like anyone else, but it's eff'ing boring. Sorry, it is. I want the game to be more fun for EVERYONE. Which is what the concept of "balance" is supposed to do.

Edited February 6, 2014 by SavingPrincess
Clarification

[tunewalker]

People seem to not understand the concept of "balance."

 

This is not a "L2P' thread. I can (and do) dominate in matches by choosing my GS or Bomber (not even geared). It's easy. I have to work 20% as hard as I do with other ships of equal geared levels. It's not about "well be 120% more amazing of a player with an inferior ship!"

 

Fighting games are my first love, balance is an issue that we discuss there probably even more actively and in-depth than the MMO PVP community. We aggregate data and construct formulas to create charts of characters based off their effectiveness against the group, and against certain matchups... etc. So, forgive me, but I"m going to make a fighting game analogy.

 

Gunships and bombers in GSF, harken back to the old days of "boss characters." Back in the OG Street Fighter 2 days... characters like Balrog, Vega, Bison and Sagat had higher damage outputs and higher health which made them effectively harder to fight than the other fighters in the game. They were this way because there was supposed to be an artificial increase in difficulty when facing these end-game type characters. In today's world, Sagat is more "balanced" to Ryu for instance, vs. what he would have been in the original game.

 

This amounts to the fact that an equally skilled Ryu player can contend evenly with an equally skilled Sagat player. This is balance.

 

In GSF, an equally skilled Gunship player vs. an equally skilled scout will always dominate. Sure, a "noob" GS player against a well geared experienced scout won't stand a chance, but that doesn't equate to "balance." If you extrapolate, this means with two players at the peak of their game, the Gunship will always win in 1v1.

 

I believe this is the case because they tried to take an "MMO" mentality based on trinity, and tried to apply them to space combat. This in my opinion was the mistake, because at present, especially without the concept of "stealth," a long range, high damage, high shielded ship will always win against a lower damage, lower range, lower shielded ship, even if that ship is "faster" and "more maneuverable." Why is this? Because in deathmatch, you don't get points for "maneuvering." (in domination GS's are far less of a concern because they are easy to avoid entirely and win the match). In Deathmatch, if a GS is having trouble pinning down a scout, then they just pick the easier target(s), take out 3-4 of them even if the scout gets them... this is also assuming no one else is also trying to dogfight the scout. Gunships will kill 1-2 targets that are dog-fighting someone else, if they get noticed, they pop behind an asteroid and just circle it until the pursuer decides to give up or go after someone else, then they set up shop again. Other fighters on the opposing team will be focused on being involved in their dogfights and because of the GS' high shield factor, view other scouts and fighters as easier targets.

 

These issues of imbalance (which is what it is) can be solved quite easily. Here's a couple ideas how:

 

1. Stealth - This does not nerf gunships in any way, but what it does do is allow close range fighters to enter that 10,000m to 5,000m range where the gunship is basically invincible and can put out the most safe damage. This also means that a close range fighter does not have to completely spec themselves to only focus on gunships (leaving them horribly spec'd to deal with other fighters).

2. Long-range munitions for close range fighters - There's no current reason why a close range fighter shouldn't be able to opt for a small payload, long range munitions option. Even giving the scout class ships an option for 4 10,000m range proton torpedoes (as their secondary weapon slot) can greatly help disrupt the currently imbalanced GS tactics.

3. Remove quick-escape options for gunships while upping their standard dog-fighting maneuverability - Removing options like "barrel roll" for GS' in favor of more defensive options would make the "camp/escape" method a much less frequented option. This would also make Gunships (in my opinion) more "fun" to play if they also in-turn upped their dogfighting capabilities a bit.

 

There are probably others. If people want to respond "L2P" that's fine... it makes them feel better or whatever, but I know how to play, I can be the one dominating in my gunship/bomber and farm my purple points like anyone else, but it's eff'ing boring. Sorry, it is. I want the game to be more fun for EVERYONE. Which is what the concept of "balance" is supposed to do.

 

scouts have access to thermite torpedoes which have had their range increased to 10km. 11.25km with upgrades .

[Brewski]

People seem to not understand the concept of "balance."

...

wot

...

 

No, the problem is that a lot of people don't seem to understand the concept of "learning tactics". They get beat at a new game the first time they play, or a new mechanic is introduced in a game that they don't immediately know how to counter, and they come to the forums (less than 24 hours after it goes live) and start screaming "balance" and "nerf" at the top of their lungs.

 

What they should be doing is studying how they got beat, and trying to establish counters. Instead of coming on the forum and screaming nerf 24 hours after launch, you start or participate in discussions about what others are doing to counter it. Learn the tactics and give them a try yourself. Play for a while before deciding that it's unbalanced.

 

The great thing about a game like GSF is that it's not easy. You have to work at it. And since your opponents are other living breathing (and we can hope) thinking individuals, there's no way to predict how they will play with 100% certainty. On any given day they could be better than you and you will lose.

 

That's what makes it fun when you win.

[DreadzKaiser]

Dare i ask what people are ************ about now?

Bypass was hit. (never used it, dont care)

Ion-lovetap gone. (abused the hell out of that one....)

D-field hit. (meh)

even the Interdiction drive was hit (i liked that one T_T)

and your STILL think they are OP?

maybe those GS you fought were simply good, I've run into more GSs lately then ever before, I'm still one of the best ones (have yet to be beaten by another gunship that wasn't in a premade group or named Shock). I find they are nowhere near as hard to kill as anyone keeps saying (5 miniutes ago i literally shot one to death with my Light laser cannons at 800m. Thats bad.)

I see nothing else OP about them. Long range damage is kinda the FRIGGIN POINT OF THEIR EXISTENCE.

Everyone hates these, but nothing other then LEARN TO PLAY SMART can be said here.

if your up against a premade, you're gonna lose. end of story.

If your up against 2 gunships, (hell, 2 of ANYTHING) alone, your gonna lose unless they suck hard

If you run up to their Line of fire, then expect to get your *** burned.

we cant one-shot you anymore, no reason you can't hunt us down now (not that you couldn't before)

If the GS runs away to spawn or sat, then they aren't shooting down your team (ie, they aren't contributing, now just don't be stupid and follow them into the spawn, your own fault on that one)

1v1, a GS is not hard to kill. 2+ GSs working together doesn't make them OP. I've had entire matches with my own personal pair of Flashfire stalkers, i got NOTHING done that game, they friggin waited out of the spawn for me. my GS OPness does nothing 2V1 either.

 

I;ve had strike fighters beat me in a 2V1 fight, they must be OP too

[EzioMessi]

It is simple enough to counter Gunships and Bombers when playing properly and co-ordinating a bit with teammates (I know it's hard when there's no way to call out a specific target, but many good players instinctively focus the right target. I know it sucks when the team is filled with newbies though).

 

Here's what my Strike Fighter does to counter Gunships. If they were stupid enough to camp near an asteroid? Sneak up on 'em and kill 'em. Plain and simply.

 

If they are up in the open sky, here's what I do:

 

1. Full power to engines, boost straight head-on

2. Get within 10,000m, full power to shields and hit charged plating.

3. Lock-on and fire a proton torpedo.

-If he sat an ate that hit to finish his attack, well and good. He's about to die.

-If he turned and ran, that's awesome. Your ship is intact, and h is vulnerable not just to you, but your whole team. In

this case just chase him down from behind or switch targets depending on the need for an immediate kill. Ignore the

rest of this method.

4. If he ate your hit, that means you ate his too. Hopefully your shields and plating dampened his hit.

5. Boost until 5000m or so and then make a full stop.

6. Fire quad-laser cannons at your sitting duck target.

 

^^ The above kills any gunship who doesn't have support. If he has support and you don't, you are destined to lose.

 

I don't know about counters to bombers, since I have not had many occasions to kill them yet, but from what I have seen others do against my bomber and from the rare fights I have had against bombers on my Strike Fighter:

 

1. Seeker mines can be avoided by boosting out of their 4000m range once you enter it.

2. You see a mine, you shoot at it first.

3. Never get straight 180 degrees behind a bomber. Attack at an angle from behind, or directly from the front, and from at least 4000m away.

4. Don't chase them around asteroids or rock formations. Any and all Starfighter that has done that to me has met a quick and brutal end.

5. With a Bomber, it is ALWAYS you (the non-bomber) who chooses when to fight. You possess the advantage of speed and maneuverability.

6. Gunships can destroy their mines and drones from a huge distance. Scouts can get in close for hit 'n' run attacks.

7. Strike Fighters can dead zone minelayers at 5000-6000m. Too far out of the range of their seekers mines, too close for them to simply boost away. I'm still not sure how SFs fight against the drones and heals class, simply because I haven't had to face one yet, and don't possess one of my own either.

8. If the area has multiple chokepoints, it is a minefield.

Edited February 6, 2014 by EzioMessi

[Amorianallund]

I did. and i told them it was broken back in october. so what do they do? Nothing. then add team deathmatch and one-shot 45 second god mode powerups.

 

^this

 

this is exactly what theyve done

 

was in a fully mastered ft-8, blue shields, 100% hull, and getting one shotted by the team camping the damage overcharge

 

thanks bioware. youve turned something i love, into something i hate

[Bleeters]

was in a fully mastered ft-8, blue shields, 100% hull, and getting one shotted by the team camping the damage overcharge

I don't like the damage overcharge boost by design, but you can't 'camp' it. It randomely shows up at several points all over the map.

[Amorianallund]

I don't like the damage overcharge boost by design, but you can't 'camp' it. It randomely shows up at several points all over the map.

 

and the other team always had it

 

i could never get it, nor could anyone on our team, because well, they always had it

[SavingPrincess]

The great thing about a game like GSF is that it's not easy. You have to work at it. And since your opponents are other living breathing (and we can hope) thinking individuals, there's no way to predict how they will play with 100% certainty. On any given day they could be better than you and you will lose.

 

That's what makes it fun when you win.

No, it IS easy... that's what I'm saying. When I play gunship it's what I call a "point-and-click adventure" in that, I point at things, click, and they die.

 

You clearly are not listening to what I'm saying. I EXPLOIT (naughty word) the gunships daily to get more Fleet comm's from medals. I play gunship, I hang back, I pick off scouts and fighters at will who are dogfighting each other... occasionally one comes by and chases me down, but it's quicker to just let them kill me sometimes and go post up somewhere else than it is to fight them. I regularly top the DMG/K-D charts with minimal skill and effort. It is not a hard game, it's an easy game as long as you exploit the system.

[Sangrar]

I can understand why people call the dronecarrier op, but what about minelayer? I do not understand any qq about that at all can someone explain that to me. Because really, the mines only have a limited detection/detonation range to do anything, appear on your screen and are easily avoidable, can someone explain how they are "OP"?

 

ps do not call me a defender or anything I just honestly want to know

[reclipsed]

I can understand why people call the dronecarrier op, but what about minelayer? I do not understand any qq about that at all can someone explain that to me. Because really, the mines only have a limited detection/detonation range to do anything, appear on your screen and are easily avoidable, can someone explain how they are "OP"?

 

ps do not call me a defender or anything I just honestly want to know

 

 

I'm not going to judge and say if one is OP or not because I'm still getting used to them. But the drones seem to be better because they are fixed turrets that continue to shoot whilst the mines are one time use weapons. I kinda did my little mini gunship drone.

Edited February 6, 2014 by reclipsed

[Zharik]

1. Full power to engines, boost straight head-on

2. Get within 10,000m, full power to shields and hit charged plating.

 

1. NEVER arrive to a fight out of engines if you can help it...

2. Spiral toward him as you boost.

[SavingPrincess]

I can understand why people call the dronecarrier op, but what about minelayer? I do not understand any qq about that at all can someone explain that to me. Because really, the mines only have a limited detection/detonation range to do anything, appear on your screen and are easily avoidable, can someone explain how they are "OP"?

 

ps do not call me a defender or anything I just honestly want to know

 

I run a drone bomber in Dom. I lay my missile drone a bit forward from the satellite I'm defending in the direction of the middle node (if I'm on a side node, which I usually am). Then I park myself a bit in front of the satellite toward the enemy base. They see me solo-defending the node and will usually get the idea of "well I'm dying trying to cap this other node, Imma go after the undefended one" so they fly straight toward me, and once they get inside 10,000m, I lock on with my torpedoes. It usually finishes the lock at about 6-7,000m which means it his around 5,000 which brings them in blaster range and by that time my side drone has already spotted them (especially if they try to flee toward the B satellite). Then either I get them with my bolts or my drone finishes them off, I repeat this the entire match. If they dedicate enough ships to take me out at that satellite, it basically means a free-cap for the other two.

[SavingPrincess]

1. NEVER arrive to a fight out of engines if you can help it...

2. Spiral toward him as you boost.

 

"Spiraling" is adorable and I love watching people fly around like drunken maniacs when I pop them in the face with my OP'd rail and they die anyway xD.

[Tangenobi]

"Spiraling" is adorable and I love watching people fly around like drunken maniacs when I pop them in the face with my OP'd rail and they die anyway xD.

 

I do the same thing except I mainly use my railgun drone and have my gunship buddy sit to my far right..I leave a seeker mine near him for protection. Bombers however are not OP neither are gunships IMO. What I see is alot of bad teamwork and coordination. But if you setup correctly it can be tough to retake a sat that aslost but IMO that's how its supposed to be.

[elthenar]

In order for those Gunships to spawn camp you, they had to have clubbed you like a pack of baby seals long enough to get you all at your cap ship. The problem then isn't the gunship, but that they were just FAAAAR better than your team.

 

 

Now, this deathmatch mode seems custom made for Sting/Flashfires to mop up. They are already the best dogfighters, but now they get massive powerups because they can fly to them faster than everyone else.