Moment of silence

[digdoug]

DFA/MV is a channeled effect.

 

OS/FB was a fire-and-forget AOE that hit like a truck. You could cast it and then to back to your rotation without batting an eye, while other hard-hitting AOEs require that you suspend your rotation entirely to channel that AOE and then allowing you to go back to your rotation.

 

And does its damage in about 1/5th the time it takes OS/FF deal its damage, as I mentioned above no one would tolerate a ~15s second channel which is about how long OS takes to deal its damage from the start of cast to the last tick. Meanwhile we have smash dealing as much as a pre-nerf orbital instantly and 3-4 times as often. Deathfield puts up similar overall numbers as OS and is rotational and it is not a problem.

 

OS/FF went from one of the best AoEs to one of the worst. They did not meet their goal of removing it from single target rotations, it is staying there because nothing is there to fill the slot in MM and it gets added as filler for Leth and Hybrid.

 

Their staged changes is not a good strategy. I'd rather they just rip the damn band-aid off and get it over with. All it has succeeded in doing is to cheese off Agents. I have a hard time swallowing "We'll fix you later" when it appears they are just breaking stuff that is not broken in the first place.

 

Personally I think the 25% damage reduction that those going "2 and 2" for set bonuses would likely have been enough of a nerf. If they wanted a change in functionality they should have done like what they did with Maras and Bloodlust, the debuff prevents the stacking of maras for BL but they widened its scope to raid-wide which allows raids to put their Anni Mara in the Tank group for extra-heals.

Edited February 4, 2014 by digdoug

[Infernixx]

And does its damage in about 1/5th the time it takes OS/FF deal its damage, as I mentioned above no one would tolerate a ~15s second channel which is about how long OS takes to deal its damage from the start of cast to the last tick. Meanwhile we have smash dealing as much as a pre-nerf orbital instantly and 3-4 times as often. Deathfield puts up similar overall numbers as OS and is rotational and it is not a problem.

 

OS/FF went from one of the best AoEs to one of the worst. They did not meet their goal of removing it from single target rotations, it is staying there because nothing is there to fill the slot in MM and it gets added as filler for Leth and Hybrid.

 

Their staged changes is not a good strategy. I'd rather they just rip the damn band-aid off and get it over with. All it has succeeded in doing is to cheese off Agents. I have a hard time swallowing "We'll fix you later" when it appears they are just breaking stuff that is not broken in the first place.

 

Personally I think the 25% damage reduction that those going "2 and 2" for set bonuses would likely have been enough of a nerf. If they wanted a change in functionality they should have done like what they did with Maras and Bloodlust, the debuff prevents the stacking of maras for BL but they widened its scope to raid-wide which allows raids to put their Anni Mara in the Tank group for extra-heals.

 

Yes, yes, it's the end of the world for Snipers because they're losing about 300dps.

 

Alert the media.

[Lunafox]

Indeed, they took all the fun out of it, funsuckers. Now, as you say, it's a filler and not a big badaboom like it should be.

 

Yeah, this game is all about suck and not enough about fun. I hear ya.

[Ardarell_Solo]

But that forces FotMers to pick a new flavor. Most inconvenient.

 

Depends on where they came from, which most likely was Sents/Marauders, so now they can just return: We should rename 2.6. "Rise of the Dotsmashers" ^^

[Beslley]

Yes, yes, it's the end of the world for Snipers because they're losing about 300dps.

 

Alert the media.

 

Maybe stupid balance decisions don't bother you, but they bother those who play high-end PvE (which was the target of this change, PvP snipers were just an unfortunate casualty)

As I've said before in this thread, the issue is not the loss of the DPS for me personally, but the ham-handed way in which it was implemented, which did little more than turn OS into a bad aoe and a mediocre filler for ST.

 

But if you want to argue about DPS numbers...

While sniper dps dropped several hundred, pyro mercs are still pulling great numbers (apparently OS was just toooo much doops, but pyro hitting like a truck is a-ok!) and concealment ops just got an insane boost and are now doing more damage than marauders. In PvE. BALANCE, EVERYBODY!

 

Truly, the class devs are the industry leaders when it comes to fixing problems like an AoE in singletarget rotation.

:rolleyes:

 

edited several times for syntax and additional thoughts

Edited February 5, 2014 by Beslley

[AlejandroTeresa]

hmmmm then now we have 3 classes for faction.

Mercenary/commando kicks harder now, heavy armor, heal and defensive abilities,... Who will want now to play as a sniper/gnslgr?

 

RIP orbital strike... RIP agent/smmglr class

[Beslley]

hmmmm then now we have 3 classes for faction.

Mercenary/commando kicks harder now, heavy armor, heal and defensive abilities,... Who will want now to play as a sniper/gnslgr?

 

RIP orbital strike... RIP agent/smmglr class

 

It's not that bleak. Sniper/gunslinger still has the best defensive raid CD in game, so they will always have a place. Even though we are quite behind merc now.

[Infernixx]

It's not that bleak. Sniper/gunslinger still has the best defensive raid CD in game, so they will always have a place. Even though we are quite behind merc now.

 

No we're not.

[Technohic]

This is great in PvP. Traded damage that only worked on the really dumb for utility that is now more practical and available more often.

 

Thanks Bioware!

[Beslley]

No we're not.

 

The numbers don't lie. They're numbers. Keep denying reality though, it's cute.

[uniz]

i'll miss them both.

 

I suppose it was done because of pvp

[Slicka]

Yes, yes, it's the end of the world for Snipers because they're losing about 300dps.

 

Alert the media.

 

Great post. This made me laugh hard.

[Infernixx]

The numbers don't lie. They're numbers. Keep denying reality though, it's cute.

 

300dps is not the end of the world.

 

If your DPS relied upon OS to stay at the top, you were never that good of a Sniper to begin with.

[Andryah]

The numbers don't lie. They're numbers. Keep denying reality though, it's cute.

 

Misunderstanding of numbers of one skill, in the larger context of a character class, exhibits novel naïveté IMO.

 

I get that you are severely bent about having your pet face roll skill adjusted, but it's not as bad as you like to pontificate. They adjusted multiple aspects of the skill to tone it down and yet make it lower resource drain and able to be used more often. And you know it was an over-powered single hitter skill, it's clear from your emotion about it being toned down.

 

I play both classes, and all that is required is to make some adjustments to your play style and move on. Or, I guess you could quit over it. But most people are able to take adjustments to skills in stride and adjust with them.

 

TL;DR you will survive, I will survive, we'll all survive.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Andryah

[Beslley]

Misunderstanding of numbers of one skill, in the larger context of a character class, exhibits novel naïveté IMO.

 

I get that you are severely bent about having your pet face roll skill adjusted, but it's not as bad as you like to pontificate. They adjusted multiple aspects of the skill to tone it down and yet make it lower resource drain and able to be used more often. And you know it was an over-powered single hitter skill, it's clear from your emotion about it being toned down.

 

I play both classes, and all that is required is to make some adjustments to your play style and move on. Or, I guess you could quit over it. But most people are able to take adjustments to skills in stride and adjust with them.

 

TL;DR you will survive, I will survive, we'll all survive.

 

Once again the point of my posts fly wayyy over your head. I like the subtle jabs at how I play, too, I always love it when someone insinuates I don't know how to play, and between your and Infernixx's posts you got a nice little dogpile going on. I hate to play the appeal to authority card but I'd like to think that I've got a pretty good grasp on my class considering I have been on the cutting edge of content for a while now.

 

I only brought up the DPS issue because Infernixx made a snide comment about it, reframing the arguments into "oh noes the dps", which was only a very small part of the issue. If you go back in my posts you will notice that most of my ire is directed at the fact that the nerfing of OS did not actually fix what Bioware believed to be the biggest issue with the ability: that it was being used in single-target rotations. Their "solution" was to make it a filler ability and nearly useless for aoe; now EVERYONE is using it as a filler ability in single-target rotations. By Bioware's own stated intentions, it has failed to change use of OS, why they nerfed it in the first place.

 

You will notice that even though I said that snipers will probably be below pyro merc that in no way are we useless. We still have the best raid defensive cd in game and we bring an armor debuff. Snipers in PvE are still in a decent spot; we are just less good, especially in aoe situations, than we were.

 

EDIT: In regards to the fact that you speculated you "knew" that I thought it needed to be toned down, well, geeze,

I only said that OS needed a rework earlier in this thread! My God, It's like I knew OS needed changing! What a revelation! Using it in a single-target rotation was incredibly silly, and needed to be changed, but a) now it is only very useful for single-target, as its multitarget damage is below frag grenade (unless you have more adds than the grenade can hit) and b) Now we have a spec that revolves around OS (marks) that is in an unpleasant spot as it waits to be reworked. I know Bioware said they wanted to ease players into the change, but I just wish they'd had done it all at once, as now we have to sit on our hands and hope that they get to that rework sometime Soon.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Beslley

[Infernixx]

Once again the point of my posts fly wayyy over your head. I like the subtle jabs at how I play, too, I always love it when someone insinuates I don't know how to play, and between your and Infernixx's posts you got a nice little dogpile going on. I hate to play the appeal to authority card but I'd like to think that I've got a pretty good grasp on my class considering I have been on the cutting edge of content for a while now.

 

I only brought up the DPS issue because Infernixx made a snide comment about it, reframing the arguments into "oh noes the dps", which was only a very small part of the issue. If you go back in my posts you will notice that most of my ire is directed at the fact that the nerfing of OS did not actually fix what Bioware believed to be the biggest issue with the ability: that it was being used in single-target rotations. Their "solution" was to make it a filler ability and nearly useless for aoe; now EVERYONE is using it as a filler ability in single-target rotations. By Bioware's own stated intentions, it has failed to change use of OS, why they nerfed it in the first place.

 

You will notice that even though I said that snipers will probably be below pyro merc that in no way are we useless. We still have the best raid defensive cd in game and we bring an armor debuff. Snipers in PvE are still in a decent spot; we are just less good, especially in aoe situations, than we were.

 

We're more than good. We're the top Damage dealer, if not the #1, then in the top two.

 

We're fine, even with the OS change.

[Rafaman]

Misunderstanding of numbers of one skill, in the larger context of a character class, exhibits novel naïveté IMO.

 

I get that you are severely bent about having your pet face roll skill adjusted, but it's not as bad as you like to pontificate. They adjusted multiple aspects of the skill to tone it down and yet make it lower resource drain and able to be used more often. And you know it was an over-powered single hitter skill, it's clear from your emotion about it being toned down.

 

I play both classes, and all that is required is to make some adjustments to your play style and move on. Or, I guess you could quit over it. But most people are able to take adjustments to skills in stride and adjust with them.

 

TL;DR you will survive, I will survive, we'll all survive.

 

So... I ran my Slinger through DF, DP, and TFB HM last night. And... guess what? Not only did I survive but I didn't change much of anything. Could I see the difference? A little bit. Did it matter? Nope.

 

Slingers and Snipers continue to be one of the most viable dps in the game. They hit hard, they are ranged and that hasn't changed. Adds management is a little harder to but Slingers and Snipers are not the only ones responsible for adds.

 

It seems to me that the parsing contingent forgets, as they always to, that parsing is great against dummies but not so great in a real fight. In practice, this nerf changes very little.

[Beslley]

We're more than good. We're the top Damage dealer, if not the #1, then in the top two.

 

We're fine, even with the OS change.

 

Overall, I think that non-gimmick wallbang specs will be below pyro merc. Wallbang will still be king, but it is the gimmickiest gimmick spec ever to have gimmicked, so I honestly don't run it in raids.

I know you think "300 dps" (your own words) isn't that big a deal, but in the context of top-end damage it really is a big drop from pre-nerf. I think pyro merc/concealment op will probably be top but concealment really needs to be playing well with good positioning and it needs to be a largely single target affair.

Honestly it is hard to tell exactly where we will fall but with the exception of wallbang I don't expect to see snipers as #1. Of course, YMMV and I will be happy to correct myself if we see super numbers from the other specs.

 

I'm glad to see that we've latched onto the dps aspect and not the fact that OS was "reworked" in basically the dumbest way possible, but hey. Whatever floats your boat.

 

It seems to me that the parsing contingent forgets, as they always to, that parsing is great against dummies but not so great in a real fight. In practice, this nerf changes very little.

 

I thought it would be obvious that we parse more than just dummy fights. :|

 

 

 

I am so done with the DPS discussion, FWIW. All I've done is point out that we've lost a fair chunk of DPS (which I didn't even bring up before you started harping on it) and apparently everyone comes out to shake their fist and go "WE'RE STILL VIABLE! QUIT YER BELLYACHIN!"

Christ, I never said we weren't viable, and I am so tired of repeating myself only to hear the same thing shouted from the rooftops again and again, and I'm not even going to repeat why I don't like the change because at this point you have your fingers in your ears and are going "THIS CHANGE IS PERFECT, IT WAS HANDLED IN THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE, WE ARE STILL THE SAME LALALA".

 

Well, **** that. I know when to call it quits. Have fun with your Orbital Sneeze, have fun using it as filler. We'll see if Bioware delivers on that marks rework in a timely manner. I'm outies.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Beslley

[KaboomzZz]

[Andryah]

Once again the point of my posts fly wayyy over your head. I like the subtle jabs at how I play, too, I always love it when someone insinuates I don't know how to play, and between your and Infernixx's posts you got a nice little dogpile going on. I hate to play the appeal to authority card but I'd like to think that I've got a pretty good grasp on my class considering I have been on the cutting edge of content for a while now.

 

I do indeed see now that you have challenges with misusing presumption and projection. I am in no way making any assessment one way or the other as to how you play, how well you play, or any other aspects of your personal play style. So stop that nonsense please.

 

I simply pointed out that you are doing yourself no favors by focusing on one change to one skill while ignoring the total changes to that skill, and doing so in the context of the entire class skill set. In the total body of skills, rotations, and play.. this adjustment is not in any way tragic, nor significant. Broad brush strokes.... with this change, the skill is no longer an over-powered single use skill... and in fact when accounted for over the duration of a fight.. the changes are less significant then measuring and crying over a single use. Playing a character in an MMO is not about one skill used one time to crush something.... it's about extracting the total performance capability of your character class, over the duration of a fight, using all skills.

 

Now... IF... you are playing in a manner whereby you are basically only spamming these particular skills that were adjusted... I can see why you feel it is so tragic a change for you. But you know what.. I do not for a moment believe all you do is spam a single skill.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Andryah

[Beslley]

I do indeed see now that you have challenges with misusing presumption and projection. I am in no way making any assessment one way or the other as to how you play, how well you play, or any other aspects of your personal play style. So stop that nonsense please.

 

Oh myyyyy. /georgetakeivoice

 

Misunderstanding of numbers of one skill, in the larger context of a character class, exhibits novel naïveté IMO.

 

I get that you are severely bent about having your pet face roll skill adjusted, but it's not as bad as you like to pontificate.

 

(emphasis mine)

Read: "You are new here and clearly don't know that numbers do not make the dps".

The fact that you try to deny that the use of "pet face roll skill" was a jab at me is laughable, but then again this is coming from someone who quoted themselves in their own sig until someone pointed out how narcissistic that was (WOW, SUCH AD HOM, MANY ATTACK, WOW), so I get it. You may not understand that you are being insulting, but you clearly were, even if that wasn't the intent (I could "pontificate" on this, but I won't. No need to be mean, here! )

 

If your DPS relied upon OS to stay at the top, you were never that good of a Sniper to begin with.

 

Read: "You're bad". Literally, there is no other way this could be read.

 

 

Okay, I'm done, I promise. I just thought I should point out the glaring contradictions between what you said the "intent" was and the actuality of the prose.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Beslley

[Andryah]

(emphasis mine)

Read: "You are new here and clearly don't know that numbers do not make the dps". The fact that you try to deny that the use of "pet face roll skill" was a jab at me is laughable, but then again this is coming from someone who quoted themselves in their own sig until someone pointed out how narcissistic that was (WOW, SUCH AD HOM, MANY ATTACK, WOW), so I get it. You may not understand that you are being insulting, but you clearly were, even if that wasn't the intent (I could "pontificate" on this, but I won't. No need to be mean, here! )

 

Jab, yes. Then again.. you've been jabbing anyone that dares to disagree with you... so consider it an introduction to the effects of Karma. As for you quoting Infernix and attributing it to me.....

 

Accusing you of not knowing how to play.. NO.

 

And sorry.. but you are pontificating here in this thread. You allow for no other view or position on the change except yours. And you condemn anyone who disagrees with you. Very imperial of you. But let's not pretend your are being fair, objective, or reasonable in the discussion about the changes.

 

But let's get past this pettiness... what exactly are you going to do about the fact that the skills were changed? Me, I will adjust and play on. What are you going to do?

Edited February 5, 2014 by Andryah

[Beslley]

Jab, yes. Then again.. you've been jabbing anyone that dares to disagree with you... so consider it an introduction to the effects of Karma.

 

Accusing you of not knowing how to play.. NO.

 

And sorry.. but you are pontificating here in this thread. You allow for no other view or position on the change except yours. Very imperial of you. But let's not pretend your are being fair, objective, or reasonable in the discussion about the changes.

 

You're allowed to have your opinions, and I'm allowed to think that they're wrong.

THE BEAUTY OF FREE THOUGHT, EVERYONE.

 

But seriously, you literally just said that you weren't being insulting when you were being insulting. I see now that you admit that you were insulting, so I consider us even at this point.

 

I, on the other hand, have never claimed to be anything other than I am: a big mad elitist nerd on a Star Wars MMO.

_cool:/\

 

But let's get past this pettiness... what exactly are you going to do about the fact that the skills were changed? Me, I will adjust and play on. What are you going to do?

 

I'm hoping that by making my opinion known that perhaps Bioware will take a look at what they've done to OS and realize that it was possibly the worst way of going about removing it from single-target rotation (because it didn't). I'll cope for now, but I think yet another rework needs to seriously be pondered. I know a channeled cast isn't optimal either (especially for PvPers) but it would be better than what we have now for PvE, anyway, and it would most definitely accomplish Bioware's stated intent. They'd have to speed up the ticks, though.

The homogenization of a unique ability into a channeled would kind of be lame but at least it would still be useful for aoe and not used single-target.

 

OKAY I'M REALLY REALLY DONE NOW. HURR

Edited February 5, 2014 by Beslley

[Andryah]

I, on the other hand, have never claimed to be anything other than I am: a big mad elitist nerd on a Star Wars MMO.

_cool:/\

 

So.. are you going to answer my question? Or are you too elitest to do so?

 

Here.. let me recap it for you....

what exactly are you going to do about the fact that the skills were changed? Me, I will adjust and play on. What are you going to do?

 

I ask this sincerely, because so far all you have done is complain about the change. I'm interested in seeing if you have any methodology to cope with the change? Why? Because class skills get changes in MMOs.... so the question is.. how will you deal with it personally?

 

Edit: Thank for answering above. I see.. so you feel that by making a big freaking emotion fested deal about it in the forum.. you will get your way and they will change it back, or change it some other way to your personal liking? Really?

Edited February 5, 2014 by Andryah

[Beslley]

I just answered your question. Through either my own selective vision or editing, I didn't see it before I posted my initial reply. I have likewise added a response.