Capt_Beers Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 It saddens me that my post here will probably get lost in this mix but I'll throw my 2 cents in on this issue. Why I think premades should never, ever, fight pugs: Let's pretend for a second I found an entire group of other players as good or better than me (not likely), lets also pretend for a second they all play at the same times as I do (even less likely), then lets pretend I am willing to put up with 'scheduled' PvP times and have to commit to them (even way less likely). Pretend all of the above is true. Also pretend I am a very good player (which is true) and so are my teamates. Now we have gone through this entire mess of rounding up a bunch of good players, who are all on at the same time. Who do I want to fight? A) A bunch of scrubs who are disorganized and are easy to beat. B) Another team of premades who think they are good, but we end up flattening them into the ground. Yep you got that right, I wanna play option B! I don't wanna fight a bunch of disorganized idiots. I don't want an easy win. I want to play the BEST! I want to beat the BEST! Onto the opposite side of this coin, the PUG: When I PUG who do I want to play: A) A bunch of very organized very good players B) Another group, which have been equally determined to be just as good as my PUG You got it right again, I want to play against option B! I don't want to get utterly destroyed simply cause the other team is coordinated and well skilled and my team is not. I want to fight an equal opponent who is just as disorganized as my PUG. I see absolutely no benefits at all whatsoever for premades to fight PUGs. The only premades who really want to fight PUGS and get easy wins, are terrible PvPers who are probably not good enough to fight a real team. Premade vs. Pug = should never happen, IMHO. All premades =/= good, coordinated or geared. I solo queue 90% of the time and I have no problem winning matches. I honestly find it more frustrating to have people on my team who have no idea what they are doing and then ***** about premades. Just because they joined as a group doesn't make them any better than they are. If they are better than you they will beat you, simple as that. This will happen whether the premade or not, good players win games. I don't win all my matches but I know when I'm being outplayed and when my teammates are just weak. If most of the people that ***** about premades would just step their game up instead of thinking the magic of being in a group made you an unstoppable PvP god things would get easier for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scylence Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) It saddens me that my post here will probably get lost in this mix but I'll throw my 2 cents in on this issue. Why I think premades should never, ever, fight pugs: Let's pretend for a second I found an entire group of other players as good or better than me (not likely), lets also pretend for a second they all play at the same times as I do (even less likely), then lets pretend I am willing to put up with 'scheduled' PvP times and have to commit to them (even way less likely). Pretend all of the above is true. Also pretend I am a very good player (which is true) and so are my teamates. Now we have gone through this entire mess of rounding up a bunch of good players, who are all on at the same time. Who do I want to fight? A) A bunch of scrubs who are disorganized and are easy to beat. B) Another team of premades who think they are good, but we end up flattening them into the ground. Yep you got that right, I wanna play option B! I don't wanna fight a bunch of disorganized idiots. I don't want an easy win. I want to play the BEST! I want to beat the BEST! Onto the opposite side of this coin, the PUG: When I PUG who do I want to play: A) A bunch of very organized very good players B) Another group, which have been equally determined to be just as good as my PUG You got it right again, I want to play against option B! I don't want to get utterly destroyed simply cause the other team is coordinated and well skilled and my team is not. I want to fight an equal opponent who is just as disorganized as my PUG. I see absolutely no benefits at all whatsoever for premades to fight PUGs. The only premades who really want to fight PUGS and get easy wins, are terrible PvPers who are probably not good enough to fight a real team. Premade vs. Pug = should never happen, IMHO. 100% Agree This is the truth, right there. This is why solo que in regs should be solo ONLY, group should be group ONLY. Premades should ONLY face premades. If you are queing with only a group of 4, well if another group is only queing with 4 then hope they are good as well or you don't get matched against a group that ques with 8. Sure the que times maybe a little longer for premades, but at least it will filter out the people not actually queing for PVP, AKA the challenge and overcoming it, and benefit the people premading for the correct intentions. It also gives them more of a reason to implement Xserver ques (Which is actually VERY easy considering they already have the foundation in place with instances). I just believe they haven't done Xserver ques, despite how easy it would be to add, because it would nullify the reason for anyone to transfer servers, which they currently make money on (not sure how much), but obviously they are naive and ignorant to the max if they think the current amount they make on server transfers is even an inkling of what they would make from the new/returning players because of Xserver ques, much less the pple that play now that would be more inclined to support the game financially Edited May 17, 2014 by scylence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Beers Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 100% Agree This is the truth, right there. This is why solo que in regs should be solo ONLY, group should be group ONLY. Premades should ONLY face premades. If you are queing with only a group of 4, well if another group is only queing with 4 then hope they are good as well or you don't get matched against a group that ques with 8. Sure the que times maybe a little longer for premades, but at least it will filter out the people not actually queing for PVP, AKA the challenge and overcoming it, and benefit the people premading for the correct intentions. It also gives them more of a reason to implement Xserver ques (Which is actually VERY easy considering they already have the foundation in place with instances). I just believe they haven't done Xserver ques, despite how easy it would be to add, because it would nullify the reason for anyone to transfer servers, which they currently make money on (not sure how much), but obviously they are naive and ignorant to the max if they think the current amount they make on server transfers is even an inkling of what they would make from the new/returning players because of Xserver ques, much less the pple that play now that would be more inclined to support the game financially I love all you armchair developers that hop on here and tell BW how easy it is to enact crossserver when you probably know dick all about programming. But here's the link for their careers page, you should apply http://www.bioware.com/en/careers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scylence Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) I love all you armchair developers that hop on here and tell BW how easy it is to enact crossserver when you probably know dick all about programming. But here's the link for their careers page, you should apply http://www.bioware.com/en/careers/ I work in networking. I see the passive aggressive thing is common in all teenagers. Just by your statement as well it seems the whole concept is way over your head so I will try to explain it in "Bieber generation" language which I am not sure I can do. SWTOR, is an MMO with *Instances*, it is NOT a sandbox. After you login and get past your first load bar, and say try to go to a diff planet.... go to your ship.... go to Fleet (2)/(1) ... these are *instances*. Warzones? Also instances. Instances are the foundation for cross server que system. Let say you play on Bastion, and random Joe player is on PoT5. You are currently connected and playing on the instance that is hosted on those individual servers. With cross server ques in place, when you both que for say a Warzone, you will both connect to the same but completely separate and dedicated server hardware that will put you both in the SAME que list and possibly even SAME Warzone instance, still on this server that is separate from both yours and Joe's origin servers. The only other thing special that they have to do is have anyone connected to that separate server, as soon as they are placed in an instance (Warzone, PVE whatever) they have their origin server somewhere attached to their character name to prevent issues with say someone named Bobby from Pot5 and Bobby from Bastion ending up in the same WZ *instance* What does this also mean? If they say the engine in some way restricts them from doing this or makes it difficult? *plays buzzer noise* lie. Has nothing to do with the engine, the engine already supports and is built around instances. If they say it would take too much time to implement? *plays buzzer noise* Half if not 75% of the things coming in the upcoming expansion would EACH take longer to do then adding xserver ques. Edited May 17, 2014 by scylence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Am I the only person who pugs and is fine with facing a group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewFromPhilly Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 I also play GW2, and....this happens in GW2 as well. Actually even more so as I normally only play WvW and it's not uncommon to see a guild group 30+ ppl big roaming around looking for other guild groups or noobs to kill. They're coordinated, too, and I've seen them take out pug zergs 2x their size before. My server uses a community mumble that's free to pugs and we try and coordinate with them and have had some pretty epic fights with that, though. Even with that I still have a lot of fun roaming around by myself or with a small group from my guild, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitroyoshi Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 the difference is in wildstar there will actually be more than like 2 pvp guilds on a server Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Beers Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 I work in networking. I see the passive aggressive thing is common in all teenagers. Just by your statement as well it seems the whole concept is way over your head so I will try to explain it in "Bieber generation" language which I am not sure I can do. SWTOR, is an MMO with *Instances*, it is NOT a sandbox. After you login and get past your first load bar, and say try to go to a diff planet.... go to your ship.... go to Fleet (2)/(1) ... these are *instances*. Warzones? Also instances. Instances are the foundation for cross server que system. Let say you play on Bastion, and random Joe player is on PoT5. You are currently connected and playing on the instance that is hosted on those individual servers. With cross server ques in place, when you both que for say a Warzone, you will both connect to the same but completely separate and dedicated server hardware that will put you both in the SAME que list and possibly even SAME Warzone instance, still on this server that is separate from both yours and Joe's origin servers. The only other thing special that they have to do is have anyone connected to that separate server, as soon as they are placed in an instance (Warzone, PVE whatever) they have their origin server somewhere attached to their character name to prevent issues with say someone named Bobby from Pot5 and Bobby from Bastion ending up in the same WZ *instance* What does this also mean? If they say the engine in some way restricts them from doing this or makes it difficult? *plays buzzer noise* lie. Has nothing to do with the engine, the engine already supports and is built around instances. If they say it would take too much time to implement? *plays buzzer noise* Half if not 75% of the things coming in the upcoming expansion would EACH take longer to do then adding xserver ques. Cool, I suppose you're intimately familiar with their server architecture and how their network is setup. And you know exactly how they coded things. You know all the return types and parameters that their functions and methods take. Have you worked on an MMO before or are you just assuming networking is networking and instances will solve everything. Obviously they can put players in instances. The part they are having trouble with is getting people to the instances. You're also assuming everything is coded properly. They were rushed to finish the game and probably took some shortcuts that they shouldn't have. Those shortcuts could be creating problems for them. I'm no fan of how BW has run this game and not having cross server is 100% their fault but for you to sit here and say you could fix there problems in an afternoon makes you sound ridiculous. You have no idea what their setup is or the limitations it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scylence Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) Cool, I suppose you're intimately familiar with their server architecture and how their network is setup. And you know exactly how they coded things. You know all the return types and parameters that their functions and methods take. Have you worked on an MMO before or are you just assuming networking is networking and instances will solve everything. Obviously they can put players in instances. The part they are having trouble with is getting people to the instances. You're also assuming everything is coded properly. They were rushed to finish the game and probably took some shortcuts that they shouldn't have. Those shortcuts could be creating problems for them. I'm no fan of how BW has run this game and not having cross server is 100% their fault but for you to sit here and say you could fix there problems in an afternoon makes you sound ridiculous. You have no idea what their setup is or the limitations it has. Doesn't work that way. It is much simpler, and you don't have to have worked on MMOs. If they are using instances, the method and difficulty (lack there of in this case), is the same no matter the architecture and no matter the engine. It doesn't matter what they rushed, or shortcuts they took, nor does it matter their transport (methods) of getting pple to instances. If this was say a sandbox MMO that tacked on instances (like random dungeons that you have to load into) but the games structure is a sandbox, sure then it would be a little more difficult. The fact remains, SWTOR, the entire game is built around instances. Picture it is like a cargo container, sure there might be different sizes in some cases and maybe slightly different material used to make it, but in reality there is only a few set ways in which it is going to be transported... The cross server que/warzones/PVE whatever, even though it would be completely separate hardware so it could handle the load, it is still just more instances, and almost exact transport methods and structure they have in place for the hundreds of instances in the game.... how they were made and how you get to them would WORK THE SAME on a Xserver que system Edited May 17, 2014 by scylence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnteJeebuz Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Premades for warzones are like guild raid groups. Get the **** over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidichIorian Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Some people will choose to group in an MMO. More breaking news at 11.Worst argument ever. People probably premade more in FPS'es, seeing how the dominant aspect of those is PvP, and many, if not most, of the big titles have systems in place for sorting based on team size. That said, everyone is aware that it wouldnt work in swtor, due to the dwindling population (or atleast people with warzone passes) , the skill disparity and lack of x-server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stringray Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 All premades =/= good, coordinated or geared. I solo queue 90% of the time and I have no problem winning matches. I honestly find it more frustrating to have people on my team who have no idea what they are doing and then ***** about premades. Just because they joined as a group doesn't make them any better than they are. If they are better than you they will beat you, simple as that. This will happen whether the premade or not, good players win games. I don't win all my matches but I know when I'm being outplayed and when my teammates are just weak. If most of the people that ***** about premades would just step their game up instead of thinking the magic of being in a group made you an unstoppable PvP god things would get easier for them. I would like to report this post for being AWESOME and BALLS ON accuracy as certified by my recently calibrated BALLS ON ACCURATE meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stringray Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I'm not quitting this game for Wildstar. I'm unsubbing this game AND not joining Wildstar. Broken design is broken and broken design should not be supported. It is broken when players choose to cooperate in a multi player game. The words of the Participation Award generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Beers Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Doesn't work that way. It is much simpler, and you don't have to have worked on MMOs. If they are using instances, the method and difficulty (lack there of in this case), is the same no matter the architecture and no matter the engine. It doesn't matter what they rushed, or shortcuts they took, nor does it matter their transport (methods) of getting pple to instances. If this was say a sandbox MMO that tacked on instances (like random dungeons that you have to load into) but the games structure is a sandbox, sure then it would be a little more difficult. The fact remains, SWTOR, the entire game is built around instances. Picture it is like a cargo container, sure there might be different sizes in some cases and maybe slightly different material used to make it, but in reality there is only a few set ways in which it is going to be transported... The cross server que/warzones/PVE whatever, even though it would be completely separate hardware so it could handle the load, it is still just more instances, and almost exact transport methods and structure they have in place for the hundreds of instances in the game.... how they were made and how you get to them would WORK THE SAME on a Xserver que system So there are no technical hurdles you believe they are not doing it because they just don't feel like it? They know it's costing them subs/players but they won't do it just because. Is that your reasoning of the situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotorCityMan Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) 9 years ago Blizzard fooled everyone into thinking that throwing a bunch of random players and classes into an instance was "PvP". Other game companies are so eager to grab a piece of WoW's cash cow that they slavishly imitate everything Blizzard. But WoW forums are still full of posts complaining about premades and mismatches. But yet their pvp paradigm is still inexplicably, stupidly, copied. Balance in PvE is deemed so important to player satisfaction and continued participation that mmo devs work around the clock for a hotfix if there is the slightest hiccup in a PvE instance. But they outrageously expect pvp'ers to continue to swallow the grossly inadequate cluster ___ stupid king of the hill or flag carrying mismatches they euphemistically label war-somethings or battle-somethings. Well, No. Just, No. I can wait for a game where the devs actually apply the same level of care and attention to pvp balance as they do pve. Edited May 20, 2014 by MotorCityMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 ideas Except all of that is pure and utter theory. Saying instances does not have any bearing of the practical application of cross server instances. You can say it will work in theory all day long, but at the end of the day its still theory and theory doesn't always work in practices, and if you think otherwise you have no experience with what your talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ObiWanJabroni Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Am I the only person who pugs and is fine with facing a group? Nope. I'm perfectly ok with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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