Bioware: These changes to Lethality are worthless...

[spartancam]

Why is Lethality a PvE spec? I don't think the developers have ever stated that their intention was that Lethality should only be used for PvE. In fact, most of the high tier talents in the Lethality tree, escape plan, augmented shields, Lingering toxins, and quickening are PvP talents. This tree was created as as a shared tree with PvP intentions.

 

No, whats really happening is that the develops don't care or don't know how to make this tree work for operatives without buffing snipers and concealment operatives. I also don't think that its unreasonable to have every AC able to work in PvP. Its the developers job to do this.

 

The lack of feedback - just in PvP in general is incredible. With 2 AAA MMOs (that are built from the ground up with PvP in mind) coming out in the next 6 months, I suspect that Swtor will be hurting shortly.

 

This is one of those things you can see across several classes, ill use marauders for example, anni vs rage. Could you use anni in pvp? Sure, but rage is typically better for pvp, and could you use rage in pvp? Sure but anni is typically better. Its no different with the operative, you can use concealment in pve, and you can use lethality in pvp, but the specs tend to be better for their own enviornment.

 

Its the way the specs are designed, pvp favors burst damage, thats why rage and concealment are favored, you arent fighting people with milions of hp, its part of the tree design, same with a boss fight. Boss fights dont favor burst damage, so dot/backloaded dps classes tend to do better there.

[Carlenux]

This is one of those things you can see across several classes, ill use marauders for example, anni vs rage. Could you use anni in pvp? Sure, but rage is typically better for pvp, and could you use rage in pvp? Sure but anni is typically better. Its no different with the operative, you can use concealment in pve, and you can use lethality in pvp, but the specs tend to be better for their own enviornment.

 

Its the way the specs are designed, pvp favors burst damage, thats why rage and concealment are favored, you arent fighting people with milions of hp, its part of the tree design, same with a boss fight. Boss fights dont favor burst damage, so dot/backloaded dps classes tend to do better there.

 

pretty much what he said, most people have the weird idea that all classes and specs has to be viable for every aspect of the game, same problem with snipers OS nerf.... snipers had FOUR specs usable on pve that were better than 10 other specs, they nerfed 2-3 of them to still be better than almost 10 specs just not in the top 5 and everyone is QQing, same with OP, same with rage, same with assassins, each class has its role in pve/pvp depending on patch/expansion.

 

assassins in pve are more favored to tank, and not so useful for dpsing, however they are the best PvP class, same with Rage for marauders which is not good for pve, but has anni and carnage... operative Conceal and leth are weak for PvP (conceal getting a buff now so have to see) however you have the most overpowered annoying and gamebreaking healing class for PvP, you have to pick one, it goes this way for all classes.

 

i know people will go with "i want MY class to be good at what I want" but that doesnt happen, never happens, wont ever happen in an MMO, we all have played other MMO probably, we all know how Druids/warlocks owned WoW Arenas for month/years, we all knew how hunters dominated PvE Dps, same for any other MMO, there is no balance in a game that allows you to play 30 different playstiles unfortunately.... if you are an OP you have 1 choice, being a kick *** healer, if you dont like healing, either wait for a time where OP get FoTM pvp again, or just reroll a ssin, after all lvling an alt is like 30 hours of playing only.

 

the same comparison i do with Snipers in PvE QQ... you have a class that has AT LEAST 1 most OP class in PvP/PvE, in OP case we are one of the most OP dps in pve and healing, and in PvP we dominate as healers... there are other classes that have nothing, like sorcs... good in PvE, great healers in pve but nothing impressive, and worst in pvp than OPs... PTs after nerf, and you can keep going. So either choose whats the best for the class you playing or wait for a buff in next build / expansion, its all lottery, one day you are at the top, the other you are at the bottom, but classes wont be perfectly balanced on all gaming aspects, ever....

[dmanlong]

pretty much what he said, most people have the weird idea that all classes and specs has to be viable for every aspect of the game, .

 

Your expectations vary from mine. The goal should be to make all 24 Trees competitive. Of course there will always be classes that are easier to play and slightly better, but quite a few trees are outright broken in this game. There is a reason that you see the same types of classes in all these premades and the same comps in Arenas.

 

Why should I have to re-roll if I don't want to be saddled into a single tree or playstyle? I expect more out of my game.

[RyderQuanTy]

in reguards to a bunch of point s made above lethality in pvp. one multi doting in pvp especially 8v8 is not all fluff it does pressure the crowd if there is no healer it wears down the crowd more so in novera .cw and void star where u need the field clear u can say it heald through but it also negates hots and when a player is heals or toped off your dot is still ticking and it pressures tanks who guard . So in 8v8 in crouds your job is to multi dot the croud and toss in some of heals keep up ta to set up your burst "make them pay for attacking u' as the croud thins now can unload your rotation. The issue is all dots should be uncleansable that would make the spec function better now class comp dectates your viability.

 

In arenas I have a sage to who always get focused everyone need to deal with it we can role and stealth away team comp will determin if u go hidden srike or dot to open which is a nice choice.

 

My complaint is back stab is so situational and so critical to dps and energy I wish they would split the 2 it dps or enery. So up the dmg and energy of back stab like 25 enerys and way more damage so it plays situationaly and lower the enery of quick shot . So back stab would be used when you go wb and get a fatality proc other than that it shive 2 quick shot and cull. minor pve change major pvp rework. for concielment just give a energy cost reduction talent and lower the dps of collateral strive to keep dps in line.

mY second complaint is and if its intentional so be it but ranged class just destroy us. No real gap closer makes us sitting ducks I would like exfiltrate grant fatality on a separate rate limit so we can role in and not be energy starved

[wishihadaname]

^ I think we had this argument in a different thread but I guess i'll repeat myself. You're running on two assumptions that rarely occur in PVP.

 

1) No healers: Like you said, if there are no healers around, our dots actually add up, however if there are no healers around most of the targets we dot will be killed by burst classes before a full dot even has time to cycle through.

 

2) You're not getting targeted yourself. If a smasher wants you dead, you WILL die. There is no and's, if's or but's about it. You. Will. Die. You simply don't have the tools to stay alive, you may be able to run away occasionally, but any decent melee will give you about 3 seconds to choose between respawning or running away. Fighting back is really not possible. Our dps is about on par with other melee dps, our defenses however are nonexistant.

 

Furthermore:

-If you looks at the tooltips for poisons vs hots, hots are more powerful. In my case, my toxic dart does about 3600 over 20s, if I spec into kolto probes they do about 2500 in 10s. Meaning a single kolto probe is almost as powerful as both of my dots. If you break it down, having both dots on target is less effective than just spamming rifle shot at it in terms of single target dps.

Edited January 27, 2014 by wishihadaname

[RyderQuanTy]

for the dots and heals that my point 2 dot vs 2 hot over 21 seconds its even you essentualy neutralize the hots so it makes cast heal vs cast or instant dps healer can't stay ahead that's not all fluff it has a role. dotting everyone also helps getting the burst spec get a target into execute range which improves there rescorse pool and they can now do more dps.. sostay on the perimeter dot 30m, off heal 30m, los and single target dps whoever attacks u on the perimeter.

 

as far as smash goes you are more likely to kill them than a pt, merc or sorc the ranged classes will kite u all day the pt has similar range but better defences energy free gap closer sholder cannon and more energy. not to be all tears exfiltrate and stealth are awesome if we could role and fight back at 15 sec intervals it would go a long way also on my wish list is carbon burst to not require TA maybe shield probe removes the ta requirements for carbon burst so when we are force in the croud we can do max dps just a way to give back some of the aoe we lost.

[Ahebish]

Just did a quick reading of the thread and it didnt seem anyone really touched on the subject that this was even intended to buff lethality, it wasnt. This is part of the concealment buff and does more for them than it does for lethality.

 

Alright you can go back to complaining about how much lethality sucks for pvp. (It does, thats why I play concealment in pvp and lethality in pve)

 

edit: maybe I misunderstood what you meant by this post.

 

But my suggestion would improve DPS in PVP for lethality obviously, but also benefit lethality in PVE as well.

 

Was that point not conveyed correctly?

Edited January 28, 2014 by Ahebish

[Ahebish]

pretty much what he said, most people have the weird idea that all classes and specs has to be viable for every aspect of the game...

 

Ok, I stopped reading here, because nothing else beyond it was worth my effort.

 

So, have you ever used a smash spec in PVE raids before? I have, and I know many other people have... and you know what? They pull one of the top DPS parses as well against oh just about any other DPS spec.

 

So, either you are completely ignorant, or you are a noob... I prefer the ignorance tbh, because at least then I can say you know the truth of the matter as you have played other classes before in a Raid environment like I have.

 

But if you are a noob, then I truely sympathize with your lack of experience in the game and it basically makes your opinion a moot point at best just as much as the person you quoted.

 

The odds of 2 people being complete noobs, is rare, but the odds of 2 people being ignorant is very high.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Ahebish

[Carlenux]

Ok, I stopped reading here, because nothing else beyond it was worth my effort.

 

So, have you ever used a smash spec in PVE raids before? I have, and I know many other people have... and you know what? They pull one of the top DPS parses as well against oh just about any other DPS spec.

 

So, either you are completely ignorant, or you are a noob... I prefer the ignorance tbh, because at least then I can say you know the truth of the matter as you have played other classes before in a Raid environment like I have.

 

But if you are a noob, then I truely sympathize with your lack of experience in the game and it basically makes your opinion a moot point at best just as much as the person you quoted.

 

The odds of 2 people being complete noobs, is rare, but the odds of 2 people being ignorant is very high.

 

nah rage mara doesnt make it in dps in real raids, dummy or PvE in general unfortunately, same with your other posts, it jus seems like you are playing at rly low lvl and with really bad people, that is no way of measuring performances by classes.

 

you know this little thing called forum signature right? go ahead and read mine click that link over there , then go to leaderboards / torparse and look for operatives, we can argue later who has more "game experience" and who knows more about PvE and Operatives .... i have no problem arguing with you something, its fine and if you have a valid point of view good, but talking like you knew everything and u have no idea what you talking about just make you look like an idiot, specially calling "noob" or "ignorant" people when you dont even take the time to know who they are.

 

Again, using yourself as reference is not a good comparison, just because by the way you are saying it, you playing with bad people, in bad environments or raid groups unfortunately

 

PD: just because of that doesnt mean you, me or anyone is right, just saying calling someone a noob or ignorant is not the best thing to do regardless if he is or not .

Edited January 28, 2014 by Carlenux

[Cordorian]

Ok, I stopped reading here, because nothing else beyond it was worth my effort.

 

So, have you ever used a smash spec in PVE raids before? I have, and I know many other people have... and you know what? They pull one of the top DPS parses as well against oh just about any other DPS spec.

 

So, either you are completely ignorant, or you are a noob... I prefer the ignorance tbh, because at least then I can say you know the truth of the matter as you have played other classes before in a Raid environment like I have.

 

But if you are a noob, then I truely sympathize with your lack of experience in the game and it basically makes your opinion a moot point at best just as much as the person you quoted.

 

The odds of 2 people being complete noobs, is rare, but the odds of 2 people being ignorant is very high.

 

both carnage and anni literally destroy rage in pve by a significant margin in every single target fight. heck even deception usually ends up better than smash and assassin in pve are usually a rather sad story. On the sentinel you still sometimes spec smash... for adds but thats it mostly the other two specs are simply way better in terms of sustained damage.

 

If you and your mates can't outdps a smasher in a single target fight, it says something about you, than you would be happy to admit.

[spartancam]

edit: maybe I misunderstood what you meant by this post.

 

But my suggestion would improve DPS in PVP for lethality obviously, but also benefit lethality in PVE as well.

 

Was that point not conveyed correctly?

 

I was just going off of the title

 

You seem to be implying that these changes were made to buff lethality, but this couldnt be farther from the truth.

Nothing in 2.6 is designed to buff lethality, its all to buff concealments pve dps. Whatever buffs lethality gets were just because they share some stuff that concealment uses.

[dmanlong]

I was just going off of the title

 

You seem to be implying that these changes were made to buff lethality, but this couldnt be farther from the truth.

Nothing in 2.6 is designed to buff lethality, its all to buff concealments pve dps. Whatever buffs lethality gets were just because they share some stuff that concealment uses.

 

 

The lower tiers of the trees for each advanced class and of course the shared tree have a symbiotic relationship with each other. If you make changes to one, then the other is affected. While all of the changes were certainly made with the concealment operative in mind, I think its fair to make a statement about how this affects that relationship.

 

Its also most likely a ***** fest about how Lethality Ops in PvP need some love .. They have almost entirely been ignored for the life cycle of this game.

Edited January 28, 2014 by dmanlong

[Ottoattack]

As PvE balance stands, lethality is in a good position. The problem is in PvP.

 

The way currently lethality is setup, it is a 100% melee class, as you need to stay in 4 meter range to use shiv every 6 secs and back stab every 12 secs. Add to that, most of lethality damage is back loaded. You will need to spend 4 GCDs (6 secs, shiv, corrosive dart, acid grenade and weakening blast) to have your heavy hitters flowing, and switching targets will cost you 2-3 GCDs. In order for you achieve this at mostly 4 meter range you need survivability, and this is where the problem is.

 

Lethality is medium armor and the only DCDs that are actively used in combat are probe and evasion. Probe is decent in 1v1 situations, but when getting focus fired, it won’t help much. Evasion is not that powerful as a DCD on 60 sec CD especially that it does not protect you from yellow damage, which most big hitters tend to be. The roll is nice, but it cost resource, global and take you out of melee range, where you need to be to deal damage. The off heal is non-existent. There is no way you will successfully cast a 2 sec heal in melee range, unless enemies are semi blind, and the off heal on the roll is on such a low chance, you won’t spam the roll for it. I would not consider stealth part of DCDs as it is on 2 min CD and some other class (sin) has it and multiple powerful DCDs on top of stealth, with front loaded damage.

 

The problem with lethality IMO is that the devs think that lethality is ahead of survivability from PT, sins, marauders and juggs, because they significantly over estimate the effectiveness of off-heals and stealth. As melee dps, you will never, use a cast heal in combat (even if you could it is a wasted GCD that you can be using to dps) and stealth is not meant to be used as an escape plan, especially, when it is on 120 sec CD.

 

What lethality needs is a DCD that improves damage reduction. Example, stim boost increase armor by 20~25% for 10~15 secs somewhere up in the tree. In combination with probe, this should put lethality at a decent survivability. Another solution, is to provide probe some damage reduction attached to it (10~15%). Outside buffing DCDs for lethality, it will never be a competitive spec in PvP.

 

BTW, my main is PT and pyro PT has stronger burst, higher up time on target, better mobility, better range and significantly better survivability. For 2 specs that play somewhat similar, the difference in PvP between them is day and night.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Ottoattack

[DaiKaede]

And yes, in fact lethality IS INDEED a ranged class.

 

That is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. They have 2 moves they can use at 30 meter range, 1 at 10 meters, and 2 at 4 meters. While they have SOME moves that can be used at range, ANY DPS class that has moves in their main core rotation at melee range is considered a melee DPS class. Just like how Madness Assassins are melee DPS though they can use 2 moves at 30 meter range. Those long ranged moves are intended to let us use moves in our rotation while we run up to the target to get in range for our primary melee moves.