Official answer to premades pugstomping in normal WZs

[vennian]

I suggested this would be an improvement that is realistic, not a perfect solution.

 

But it is not an improvement. Premades will grind ranked gear, then return with RANKED GEAR to regs, making for an even worse experience in regs as regstars now only can get regular gear.

[MotorCityMan]

But it is not an improvement. Premades will grind ranked gear, then return with RANKED GEAR to regs, making for an even worse experience in regs as regstars now only can get regular gear.

 

You don't understand. Perhaps if I use your method of capitalizing words for effect. Premades with RANKED GEAR (OBERON) are ALREADY IN reg warzones AND BEING REWARDED FOR IT BY EARNING EVEN MORE RANKED GEAR. There is NOTHING STOPPING them now. The problem you describe ALREADY EXISTS. This would give them less incentive to do so. So it IS an improvement.

Edited January 20, 2014 by MotorCityMan

[Seireeni]

You don't understand. Perhaps if I use your method of capitalizing words for effect. Premades with RANKED GEAR are ALREADY IN reg warzones AND BEING REWARDED FOR IT BY EARNING EVEN MORE RANKED GEAR. There is NOTHING STOPPING them now. The problem you describe ALREADY EXISTS. This would give them less incentive to do so. So it IS an improvement.

 

S/He's probably meaning that right now, you at least can get the same gear if you work hard. If this was implemented, ranked would give you the best gear for regs and if you only want to do regs, too bad for you.

[vennian]

This would give them less incentive to do so. So it IS an improvement.

 

It's a band-aid on a gashing wound. It's gonna suffice like a snowball in hell.

 

And with your suggestion regstars can only get conqueror, while premades are in obroran. Hardly an improvement.

Edited January 20, 2014 by vennian

[Sangrar]

You don't understand. Perhaps if I use your method of capitalizing words for effect. Premades with RANKED GEAR (OBERON) are ALREADY IN reg warzones AND BEING REWARDED FOR IT BY EARNING EVEN MORE RANKED GEAR. There is NOTHING STOPPING them now. The problem you describe ALREADY EXISTS. This would give them less incentive to do so. So it IS an improvement.

 

while making ranked a gear grind, less about skill and more about who gets the good gear first, and ultimately undermines the whole point of ranked. Also, if a premade already is in full ranked gear then how is more ranked comms at that point any benefit to them!?! If they are in full ranked gear and as you said are being rewarded with more ranked gear that makes no sense, at that point what use is it to them!?

[MotorCityMan]

S/He's probably meaning that right now, you at least can get the same gear if you work hard. If this was implemented, ranked would give you the best gear for regs and if you only want to do regs, too bad for you.

 

I think you are right. This is the real objection. The rest is just being argumentative.

[Joesixxpack]

hahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhaaha

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

 

hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

^ qft

[Zoom_VI]

Its interesting to note that in the current live iteration there are three distinct queues.

 

1 that is groups only

1 that is solo only

1 that is mixed.

 

 

Under the OP's proposed system we would have

2 group only queues

2 solo queues

 

How does the latter system make any sense to anyone?

[Bobbafatter]

Its interesting to note that in the current live iteration there are three distinct queues.

 

1 that is groups only

1 that is solo only

1 that is mixed.

 

 

Under the OP's proposed system we would have

2 group only queues

2 solo queues

 

How does the latter system make any sense to anyone?

 

Makes perfect sense to me:

 

one solo Arena queue

one group Arena queue

one solo WZ queue

one group WZ queue

 

Seems perfectly fine to me - definately more sense than the solo queue for groups we have today. We could even add in a mixed one for those who prefer to group with their friends but can't make a full team or those who like to stomp pugs or be stomped by premades. There might be a bit of a shortage of the latter though ..

Edited January 21, 2014 by Bobbafatter

[cycao]

Makes perfect sense to me:

 

one solo Arena queue

one group Arena queue

one solo WZ queue

one group WZ queue

 

Seems perfectly fine to me - definately more sense than the solo queue for groups we have today. We could even add in a mixed one for those who prefer to group with their friends but can't make a full team or those who like to stomp pugs or be stomped by premades. There might be a bit of a shortage of the latter though ..

 

Solo queue for groups? Ranked solo arena?

[Carter_Mathis]

You know what, I'm not even going to bother point quoting you anymore because you change your argument every ten seconds. One second you are lamenting about how we can't have a viable solo queue because it will force premades to suffer "the penalty of being excluded from the general queuing population," and then three paragraphs later you're talking about how you never said anything about how there couldn't be a solo queue and how it serves a purpose. And if I try to call you out on it you just re-context your quotes to where you just said the opposite. So why bother; you're using broken-clock arguments; you just have to go up or down a few lines to find exactly the contradiction you need.

 

I have yet to say that solo queue ranked in any way diminishes the viability of any other form of pvp in this game. I did, however state that the separation of solo queue and group queue regs would force premades to suffer "the penalty of being excluded from the general queuing population." I was very explicit whenever I was discussing ranked queues. So, unless you just have terrible reading comprehension, I'd assume that you can pull up a quote in which I said that solo ranked makes premades suffer

 

 

Again, for fiftieth time, matchmaking along with cross-server queues (and actually, now that I think about they actually go hand in hand because you can't really have one without the other) just aren't viable solutions. They will take too long implement and we need a faster solution. I know this because, after actually thinking about it for two seconds, if those features could be implemented fairly quickly and easily they'd be in the game already. I don't care if they're popular solutions because the majority of the people arguing for or agreeing with the idea just don't understand that wishing for it doesn't make it happen. Hell, if you could guarantee me that matchmaking/CSQ could be implemented before summer I'd be all over that idea because it would help out a ton. As it is, however, you're trying to tell me that the only solution is some massive big project that the devs have already seemingly shot down, and even if they changed their minds they couldn't implement it until some time in 2015. So, no, AGAIN, those solutions are neither realistic nor practical.

 

I may have missed it, but I don't believe that Bioware has released any official (yellow, not this ghetto 'official') statement saying that a matchmaking system will not be implemented because it is too hard. Everyone knows that about Cross Server, but unless you can pull something up, I don't think you saying "matchmaking can't be implemented because I say it can't" is very reliable.

 

As for your other point, YES, I am completely aware that there is already a solo ranked queue. The problem is that both it and the grouped one, for that matter, have completely and utterly failed. And they have failed largely do to improper design. And, NO, people do not seem to be cool about that because I can look at these forums and READ; they're littered with people complaining about ranked queue times taking hours, general hate for arenas (the only mode ranked offers), and a litany of other problems. Think they're just a vocal minority? Fine, do the math: assuming that we still have a sub population of about five hundred thousand, less than seven percent of the player base has played a ranked arena during this season. That's assuming no overlap between the two lists and that no player has more than a single character on either (which is ridiculous when you think about it). That is appalling bad.

 

So, YES, I want both of those queues to be rendered viable. In fact, at the end of the day all I want is for both of those queues to be viable. That means not only incentivizing ranked matches but adding modes that players are genuinely interested in -- i.e. warzones. I also get that you seem perfectly fine with incentivizing ranked queues; the problem is that you just flip the script the moment that the solo queue becomes viable.

 

Ranked, in general, being a failure is entirely due to the attitude of the playerbase, poor incentives, small population, and relatively poor class balance. None of those things should make any premade player hate solo ranked queues simply because of their nature. I never stated any sentiment against solo queue ranked, despite your poor reading, and I cannot speak for any other poster who holds those sentiments.

[Zoom_VI]

Makes perfect sense to me:

 

one solo Arena queue

one group Arena queue

one solo WZ queue

one group WZ queue

 

Seems perfectly fine to me - definately more sense than the solo queue for groups we have today. We could even add in a mixed one for those who prefer to group with their friends but can't make a full team or those who like to stomp pugs or be stomped by premades. There might be a bit of a shortage of the latter though ..

 

have fun trying to keep those queues going, considering out of three in existence now, two of them are on the verge of extinction on most servers, and the mixed queue is not one of them.

[PloGreen]

You don't understand. Perhaps if I use your method of capitalizing words for effect. Premades with RANKED GEAR (OBERON) are ALREADY IN reg warzones AND BEING REWARDED FOR IT BY EARNING EVEN MORE RANKED GEAR. There is NOTHING STOPPING them now. The problem you describe ALREADY EXISTS. This would give them less incentive to do so. So it IS an improvement.

 

It's obroan - not Oberon.

[PloGreen]

Its interesting to note that in the current live iteration there are three distinct queues.

 

1 that is groups only

1 that is solo only

1 that is mixed.

 

 

Under the OP's proposed system we would have

2 group only queues

2 solo queues

 

How does the latter system make any sense to anyone?

 

It doesn't it splits the playerbase and discourages casuals from grouping, but people who advocate this cannot see past losing games they join when they solo queue, they think this will make the game fairer which it doesn't if you actually stop and think past the all premades are pug stomping in the mixed UNRANKED queue (it isn't exclusively for solo pugs).

[SlightlySychotic]

I have yet to say that solo queue ranked in any way diminishes the viability of any other form of pvp in this game. I did, however state that the separation of solo queue and group queue regs would force premades to suffer "the penalty of being excluded from the general queuing population." I was very explicit whenever I was discussing ranked queues. So, unless you just have terrible reading comprehension, I'd assume that you can pull up a quote in which I said that solo ranked makes premades suffer

Speaking of which, I have never, not once, in this thread advocated the reduction or dissolution of present queues nor the addition of any more queues. In my very first post here I said that the general queue should remain untouched and that the current ranked queues both should be expanded upon with the addition of extra incentives, 8v8 warzones, and clear and tangible rewards. So you can understand my confusion over being confronted with topics I never once argued for.

 

I may have missed it, but I don't believe that Bioware has released any official (yellow, not this ghetto 'official') statement saying that a matchmaking system will not be implemented because it is too hard. Everyone knows that about Cross Server, but unless you can pull something up, I don't think you saying "matchmaking can't be implemented because I say it can't" is very reliable.

You are correct, but technically there already is a matchmaking system in the game (on the ranked queues at least). They are oft-criticized, however, as being ineffectual do to the low player population of the ranked queues -- you just

end up playing against the same group of people over and over again so rank matching becomes meaningless. The only ways around this would be adding in cross-server functionality (and again, too big a project) and/or increasing interest in ranked matches vis a vis additional incentives, rewards, and game modes that are not widely reviled.

 

If you mean adding matchmaking to the general queue, well at that point it sort of stops being a "general" queue and starts becoming a ranked one. In order to have proper matchmaking you need to have an adequate measure of that player's skill so that they can be matched with players of similar skill. That means judging and rating their performance -- i.e. ranking.

 

Ranked, in general, being a failure is entirely due to the attitude of the playerbase, poor incentives, small population, and relatively poor class balance. None of those things should make any premade player hate solo ranked queues simply because of their nature. I never stated any sentiment against solo queue ranked, despite your poor reading, and I cannot speak for any other poster who holds those sentiments.

Again, take a look around. Look at how many people on this forum openly dislike arenas in general. Hell, in just the past few posts we've seen several people advocate split ranked queues for both solo and grouped arenas and warzones. That sounds innocuous until you realize that they are actually very subtly saying that they never wish to ever have to play another arena again because why would they make the distinction otherwise? It's a somewhat polite way of saying, "I don't want to have to do this but I don't want to take it away from other people so why don't we just have it separate so we can all be happy?" Of course, we already know the truth: if there was any interest at all in those arena queues then there wouldn't be hour long waits in the current ranked queues.

 

A pure arenas queue will never draw an audience. They just won't. That's why you need 8v8 warzones added to the ranked queues.

[DevinMace]

I'm curious why do people seem to think there is a hope in hell that premades will be taken out? MMO's are a social game as much as anything very simply if you don't like playing against premades make one yourself. I have yet to play in a premade myself and I'd have to say I'd consider quitting if they took the option to premade away it would be a joke and remove any hope of people staying in the game.

 

My big issue right now is there is no ranked pvp really, because why play ranked? it is another mode to divide players Pve-unranked pvp- ranked pvp - starfighters. Too many things to do and not enough players, which is watering down things. I'm thinking if they restructured things so everything is ranked but you get unranked comms and ranked comes say like 80% of your winnings is unranked and 20% ranked. Then just seperate group and not group.

[Carter_Mathis]

Speaking of which, I have never, not once, in this thread advocated the reduction or dissolution of present queues nor the addition of any more queues.

The posts in which you either: (a) argue that premades are unfair, (b) confuse ranked and reg queues without any indication of the previous conversation discussing ranked, © attack arguments against the separation of solo and group regs, or (d) pepper in the word "ranked" (or conversely omit it) seemingly at random during discussions, making it a mess to make sense of.

 

That's all well and good. It doesn't change the fact that we both have a right to a fair and competitive match when we press that queue button. I pay the exact same fifteen dollars a month as you do; my choice of play style is just as valid as yours. If I want to play with strangers and meet new people, I have every damn right. I shouldn't be forced to find a group of people to play with me just so I can have an even chance of winning. Hell, if I wanted to do that I would be playing operations.

 

A post in which you assail the logic defending the success of premades and how they are entirely fair. Your rather strange solution in your first post was to make a more lively solo and group ranked queue, which comes across as either (a) a de facto separation of queues if all pvp traffic were moved to those two, (b) ineffective if the queues get some more life but people still feel punished by the existence of groups in reg (since that doesn't do anything to directly solve their problems), or © odd if your advocating that the people that hate groups all go do solo ranked.

 

That's also why premades completely screw up that fair balance. They guarantee that at least half their team will be people they know and trust. Hell, I'll even admit that most premade players are better than average; that just guarantees four good players on their side. The especially good ones will make sure they're premade is role balanced, and the really serious ones will even be in voice chat. They will have stacked the deck in their favor. I may be rolling the dice but they're using loaded dice. There's a word for people who have an advantage over the majority of other players: cheating.

 

Premades are unfair. Despite you saying that you won't go there directly under it, you literally just typed those words. You. Went. There.

 

Also, you might want to cut back on the whole "ghost-town group queue" argument. Because every time it's made all I hear is "The premades are an extreme minority of the player base and can be safely dismissed, that we can do away with any sort of premade grouping and PvP would just tick along just as well as it always does -- possibly better." And I really don't want to chase that argument because, well, first of all it's kinda mean and, second, it actually might be completely true. Because I don't see any PUG players arguing that the solo queue would be a ghost town.

 

Assailing the ghost-town argument. You can only throw attacks a position so many times before you become an enemy of it.

 

No. The problem is that you get one or two syncing up against you so that every match you play ends up against the same blasted premade. They are just prevalent enough that at the wrong time you can find yourself constantly going against them but never having one on your side. During the weekends, I'd say maybe one in every five matches are actually PUG v PUG.

 

Frustration with those blasted premades.

 

However, I approach the whole "Solo players don't deserve their own ranked queue" with nothing but absolute contempt. It is insulting and it is inflammatory and it is absolutely cancerous to this game's design and its community. I don't just disagree with it: I outright reject it and rebuke anyone who argues for it. How dare you for even a second suggest that for any reason that PUG players aren't good enough to support competitive play. It is arrogant and elitist and utter nonsense. Shame on you for thinking you are better than me and other PUG players just because we have different styles of play.

 

In which you quite oddly and emotionally rebuke my statement that (for the vast majority) premades bring the skill to regs, which should have no implication on whether or not pugs deserve a solo ranked queue because (a) it has no connection to ranked, (b) solo ranked queues are (ideally) supposed to be more experience than the hilarity that occurs in regs, and © even if solo ranked would be worse than group ranked the queue, as a means of allowing players to do ranked, is not dependent on the skill level of the players in it. I also assume that this is where the mind**** begins.

 

And, no, to answer your question waiting a few minutes typically is not enough to offset premade groups; you just typically get in sync with another premade. Maybe the ghost-town argument is a falsehood and there really are enough grouped players out there to support their own ranked queue.

 

Sure is odd that you brought up ranked in a post that never even mentioned it

 

I've said before that the problem with matchmaking is that it will likely take to long to implement -- we need a solution tomorrow, not a year from now. As for voice chat, the simple fact is that it's been tried in other MMOs and is always underutilized (and, again, is probably going to be a lengthy project). They just aren't viable solutions.

 

Either revitalizing ranked queues can happen overnight or someone sure implied queue separation

 

Now, it's equitable because the viability of one is reliant on the other. Despite the argument that a group queue might become a ghost town I am not entirely convinced that will be an issue. I base this on the fact that, yes, if premades were too rare then no, no one would really be complaining about them. Hell, there are enough premade players trying to defend there positions in this thread alone to make me believe that there are enough of them to support a group queue.

 

I never mentioned ranked, this doesn't mention ranked, and I can only assume that this isn't talking about ranked

 

Moreover, over time you'll have solo players in the ranked queue making friends with one another and eventually forming premades of their own, transitioning to the group queue. Same with the general queue, which will naturally be where newer smarter players congregate to get their gear before moving on to ranked, possibly interacting with current premades looking to expand their roster and transitioning directly to the ranked queue.

 

This doesn't actually have any bearing on my other quotes but I'd like to just stop for a moment and reflect on what I just read.... and how ridiculously naive it is.

 

And again, a viable solo queue ultimately needs a viable to grouped queue to sustain itself. Otherwise, the grouped players will eventually just take up the habit of solo queuing together in the hopes of ending up in the same war zone. This will disrupt the balance of the solo queue, leading to solo players dropping out of ranked which exacerbates the problem even further. Ultimately, both ranked queues dry up and we end up with a general queue no different from the one we have right now.

 

You just went from talking about a solo and group queue that does not mention ranked at all to how those queues will impact solo and group ranked queues... any chance you can try to distinguish between the two with any semblance of consistency or are the readers supposed to wade through this mess?

 

You are as much as saying that if solo players get their own ranked queue and it is viable then grouped players won't be able to get groups of their own. I can't think of a better example of premade players fretting over the existence of a viable solo ranked queue.

 

In which you quoted me talking about queue separation for regs and took that as a premader fretting over solo ranked. Do you follow that logic? I certainly don't

 

 

 

 

And if you're knocking the matchmaking system because it would take time (says you ) to implement, do you really think that revitalizing ranked queues would be a much quicker process? The first is just adding some code, the second is changing the attitude of a stubborn community. And yeah, matchmaking in general queues is totally fine, assuming that people getting destroyed and their pvp experience being 'ruined' is a big issue, and it certainly will be a lot more effective and permanent than encouraging some people to do more ranked.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Carter_Mathis

[Bobbafatter]

have fun trying to keep those queues going, considering out of three in existence now, two of them are on the verge of extinction on most servers, and the mixed queue is not one of them.

 

WZ Solo queues would have absolutely problems would be more or less the same people playing as now - most people solo queue anyhow. If queue time times are too long just people queue in both queues at once.

[tomius]

Solution: all us soloers go ranked solo.

 

Let the premaders bash it out in regs. Eventually they'll either get annoyed with loss of easy wins or get fed up with losing to other premades and join ranked queues.

 

Then all soloers can come back to regs with better gear, less premades and better understanding of how to play.

[SlightlySychotic]

Long story short, you seem to have misunderstood or misconstrued almost everything I have actually said so far. As a reminder, this was my first post in this very thread:

First of all, you actually called customer support over a gameplay design issue? Seriously?

 

Second, and this is coming from one of the biggest champions of PUG rights on this forum, but yes, groups of friends have every right to play with each other. Period. Any game maker disagreeing with that would have to be insane. You don't like that and just canceling your sub won't be enough; you'll pretty much have to walk away from online gaming altogether.

 

HOWEVER, that doesn't make it fair. And everyone -- premade and PUG alike -- has the right to a fair and competitive match. And pitting PUGs and premades against each other isn't conducive to either of those things. That is the real issue at hand.

 

I'll say it again: the answer is separate ranked queues for solo and grouped players. Right now they have that but they're not doing it well. They need to add ranked dailies to give players a greater incentive to queue ranked (I'd say the lack of a daily actually discourages it) besides chasing a number. They need to add 8v8 warzones to both ranked queues, because the general reaction to arenas has been reluctant at best and venomous at worst and they will not be able to support ranked queues on their own. They need to display clear and desirable rewards for playing ranked matches and they need to make the ones for the grouped queue substantially better to help ensure that the premades stay in their own queue.

They can leave the general queue as it is -- it is not unhealthy to encourage the two communities to interact to a certain degree so that those grouped players can expand their rosters. Long term they need to look at adding cross-faction warzones (Imps and Pubs playing on the same team) to further discourage premade overlap and finally add in cross-server queues once everything is working well.

 

If you want to walk away over things you think you can't change, that's fine. I can't stop you. But I'm going to stay here and voice my arguments and hope that one day I am listened to.

I underlined that parts you might want to pay attention to.

This is and always has been my core argument. Leave the general queue as it is; add ranked dailies and possibly a dual queue; add 8v8 warzones to the pre-existing queues; announce the seasonal awards so people have an idea of what they're working for aside from just an abstract number.

 

No, I don't think that the general queue will dry up and I've said before why. New and existing players will want to gear up their character before stepping into ranked. Premades will want to practice with their new members without it affecting their ranked score. Many players will want to play a few unranked matches to start to warm up or to reacclimatize to their controls if they play several different character. I can say all this because their are plenty of games out their that feature both ranked and unranked/player matches and both queues work just fine.

 

As for how long this will take, I can imagine that the ranked daily could be added in within a few weeks (although, I'm concerned that the fact that one hasn't already been added can be chalked to the design philosophy of the devs, a possibility that I would find most distressing). Adding warzones to the ranked queues might take a few months but I'm confident it could be accomplished in less than six at the most unless I hear otherwise.

[Carter_Mathis]

Long story short, you seem to have misunderstood or misconstrued almost everything I have actually said so far. As a reminder, this was my first post in this very thread:

 

No you, at best, very poorly distinguished between ranked and reg queue discussions while pushing an odd solution that no one else on this thread has really discussed, and, at worst, continually misconstrued discussion of reg queues as a discussion of ranked queues and tossed in the word ranked to your argument whenever you desired. One key component of an argument is clarity, and yours was heavily lacking.

 

 

As for how long this will take, I can imagine that the ranked daily could be added in within a few weeks (although, I'm concerned that the fact that one hasn't already been added can be chalked to the design philosophy of the devs, a possibility that I would find most distressing). Adding warzones to the ranked queues might take a few months but I'm confident it could be accomplished in less than six at the most unless I hear otherwise.

 

Which would all take longer than updating a matchmaking system. Additionally, if you're using the logic that "Bioware can't do it in a reasonable amount of time because Bioware hasn't done it yet" then Bioware won't be able to make a good ranked system because they have not yet managed to do it. Additionally things like the GSF never should have come into existence. Just because a developer isn't working on something at the moment doesn't mean it is impossible/extremely difficult to change. Classes get changed with some degree of frequency, the matchmaking system can as well.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Carter_Mathis

[Carter_Mathis]

Solution: all us soloers go ranked solo.

 

Let the premaders bash it out in regs. Eventually they'll either get annoyed with loss of easy wins or get fed up with losing to other premades and join ranked queues.

 

Then all soloers can come back to regs with better gear, less premades and better understanding of how to play.

 

So let's get this straight. Premades, tired of losing to other premades or afraid of challenge of regs without pugs, will then go do Group Ranked in which they can only fight premades at higher stakes in a less forgiving pvp format? Can you find the logic in that?

[cycao]

Solution: all us soloers go ranked solo.

 

Let the premaders bash it out in regs. Eventually they'll either get annoyed with loss of easy wins or get fed up with losing to other premades and join ranked queues.

 

Then all soloers can come back to regs with better gear, less premades and better understanding of how to play.

 

This is what I don't get. I hear a lot of people say "arenas are for premades" when there is a grouped queue but there is also a solo queue. Why don't solo players just queue solo ranked for what will be an incredibly easy gear grind? Is it because they don't like arenas? Should all premades be forced into arenas if they don't like them?

[Jadescythe]

How do you pronounce friendts? I assume since he was quoted that's what he said.

[Otchiver]

I just got off the phone with Anthony in Austin, Texas.

He said and I quote,

 

"We have no intention of removing group queues from normal war zones. People have a right to group with their friendts and play as a group."

 

My responce was colourful to say the least and I will not be renewing my subscription based on this answer.

It seems BW figures the solo community is not worth concerning themselves with so I call out to all of you who are fed up with this to also cancel your subscriptions.

 

If you don't cancel your account and wish to continue being farmed in normal WZs, just know that you have been warned. So don't bother posting about it because they (BW) don't care and you will be wasting your time.

 

It's best to just move on to a game that respects ALL its players and treats them equally well by providing a fair playing field for everyone. After all this is supposed to be a game and being frustrated by the continuous trouncing by the same untalented group members over and over is hardly fun.

 

I welcome people to list games that they know have a better PvP system and leave this game to be what it was intended to be in the first place. A multiplayer solo game.

 

I'm sorry, but if my guild with whom i have many friends in want to PVP... we're going to do it, not because we want to farm people but because it's a friendly game and it's our right to play games together.

It just so happens that we coincidentally get a bad team That you just so happen to be on, not that I'm saying it's your fault in that I'm sure it's not your own fault. Maybe it's your team, maybe it's that you didn't have enough bran or water that day or a banana to help with your typing speed and precision.

 

Lookit, I'm sure it's not your fault… but lets be honest, this is an MMO… there are plenty of people who play it. Many of whom played it longer than you and know their class better than you. You can't fault them for doing the research on this game and taking it seriously enough to want to learn how to work with others.

 

The age old adage of you win some and you lose some…. I'm sure I don't need to explain this.

There are always people who will be better than you, maybe not now… but later someone will knock you off the totem pole.

 

As for premades, I welcome the challenge… You don't? Then stick to pve content and stop trying to ruin the game for everyone else… Again, I'm sure it's not your fault… but then again, I've been known to be wrong. Learn your class in pvp and stop QQ'ing the forums.