Seriously, the balance changes in 2.6?

[Ubwike]

So WHAT is being thought here? Seriously - Devs, have you guys have some head trauma recently? There are a lot of things you NEED to deal with. Mostly, I think you need to IMPROVE classes, not wreck things that work. There are a couple of exceptions, ie exploits, but they can be sorted without resorting to breaking a tree/class.

 

 

Lets start with the orbital strike nerf - you don't like that being a single target ability. Fine, that is all well and good, but consider what you are breaking before you bring out your nerf hammer, yes, this is a hammer. The following are just a minor selection of MY grievances.

 

First of all - MM dies. There is no point in using it over Lethality, Hybrid or full Engineering. On demand burst is gone, and with it the smooth rotation.

 

Secondly - Add heavy fights are going to be awful for snipers.

 

Third - PvP, massive buff for node guards, like snipers weren't able enough when it came to situations like voidstar already.

 

Fourth - it was one of my snipers dcd's in arenas, the sniper is shark bait now.

 

So, yeah, don't break the class 'because you don't like something'. If you want to do something, I'd start by looking at ToR parse - see all those roll on the spot engineer spec snipers? AoE on a single target producing the highest dps in the game? Yeah? Might want to think about having a look into that...

 

 

Secondly Operative/Scoundrel middle tree buff - Again, where is the thinking in this? Is there any thinking? Check the metrics - It was unusual, but one played to absolute potential would pull higher dps than most anything else, but a roll spec engineer. So it wasn't an issue of the class being poor, but the player pool being poor. Stack that with their excellent burst... and stealth... and numerous CC's.

 

 

PLEASE, apply your brains BEFORE you start breaking things. I'd be embarrassed to say my solutions were those as published in the patch notes.

 

 

Anyway, off to learn how to roll on the spot - all snipers should go for the insitu roll, highest DPS spec there is. Even if it does seem like a MASSIVE EXPLOIT. It isn't being fixed

[DarthMaulUK]

Bioware love the Agent class so will pull out all the stops to buff, fix give them the best abilities in the game. Of course Agents will jump on their Banthas claiming class X is OP.

 

The fact Bioware fixed 'LOLScamper' within a couple of weeks yet leaves Force Shroud still broken after 18 months, says it all.

[OddballEasyEight]

Cows go "moo", dogs go "woof", MMO players go "the PvP is unbalanced."

 

[Malastare]

A bunch of game designers watching game logs and statistics: They're the ones who aren't using their brains. Internet random who knows nothing about game design and looks at a couple of characters at best: He's the genius who knows what's going on.

 

Yeah. That's probably how that goes.

 

[/sarcasm]

[Vinak]

A bunch of game designers watching game logs and statistics: They're the ones who aren't using their brains. Internet random who knows nothing about game design and looks at a couple of characters at best: He's the genius who knows what's going on.

 

Yeah. That's probably how that goes.

 

[/sarcasm]

 

The mass exodus back in 2012 followed soon after massive balance changes that quite literally broke a few classes the pts crew tried to warn about but were completely ignored. That, coupled with the Ilum debacle lead many people to think the devs were completely inept. Which lead to the exodus. So yea, sometimes the community knows better than the devs. Just saying.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Vinak

[Jandi]

The mass exodus back in 2012 followed soon after massive balance changes that quite literally broke a few classes the pts crew tried to warn about but were completely ignored. That, coupled with the Ilum debacle lead many people to think the devs were completely inept. Which lead to the exodus. So yea, sometimes the community knows better than the devs. Just saying.

 

LOL ahh the delusions of the self-important PvP crowd. Look, PvP has never played a part in any mass exodus of this game. It being a disappointment as a whole in the eyes of many is the reason, not Ilum or any balance changes.

[genmyke]

LOL ahh the delusions of the self-important PvP crowd. Look, PvP has never played a part in any mass exodus of this game. It being a disappointment as a whole in the eyes of many is the reason, not Ilum or any balance changes.

 

idk if Illum wasnt a slide show this game probably wouldnt have been F2P less than a year after being out which in truth did show the engine being one of worst game engines ever made i still to this day get 20 fps in WZ no matter what settings i put this game on very low or high.

but i wouldnt say it is the sole reason why but it was a major one.

[Malastare]

The mass exodus back in 2012 followed soon after massive balance changes that quite literally broke a few classes the pts crew tried to warn about but were completely ignored. That, coupled with the Ilum debacle lead many people to think the devs were completely inept. Which lead to the exodus. So yea, sometimes the community knows better than the devs. Just saying.

 

That's a highly selective memory.

 

The "mass exodus" was mostly driven by the MMO locusts who blasted through content as quickly as they could, then ran into the end-game and found it insufficient to satisfy their hunger. In truth, the exodus was simply the conclusion of the massive hype-mountain that was created before the game's launch. The level of hype was unmaintainable, and the developers have admitted that they grossly underestimated just how quickly the players would rush to the endgame.

 

If we are going to pick a particular game design decision that drove the exodus, then it would be the number of servers that were created at launch, leading to overly barren servers once the bulk of the locusts moved on. Clearly, setting up that many servers was a mistake. But was it the devs mistake? Nope. The devs created a bunch of extra servers in response to the whining, crying, and screaming "MMO pros" who demanded extra servers at launch.

 

Balance was never the problem. There is no such thing as PvP balance. PvP is always unbalanced. PvP can never be balanced. Anyone who quits a game over PvP balance is either new to the idea of PvP or lying about their reasons for quitting.

[PlasmaJohn]

Yeah. That's probably how that goes.

Dude... usually you're pretty reasonable, no clue why you're so bent out of shape over a fairly accurate post.

 

The devs stated that OS/FB was intended to be an AoE ability and not to be used in a single-target rotation. So their fix was to make it near useless as an AoE and more likely to be used rotationally? That doesn't scream "inept" to you?

 

There are numerous threads discussing the details explaining how wrong this "fix" is by respected members of the Sniper/Slinger community and dead silence from the devs. If I had a Sniper or Slinger, I'd be pretty upset too.... oh wait.

[Avicii]

idk if Illum wasnt a slide show this game probably wouldnt have been F2P less than a year after being out which in truth did show the engine being one of worst game engines ever made i still to this day get 20 fps in WZ no matter what settings i put this game on very low or high.

but i wouldnt say it is the sole reason why but it was a major one.

Lol a lot of things had to do with people leaving personally Ilum was never a slide show for me and force leaping up to the platform to smash people was great fun while we out number the Pubs 80-20 at times. Broken raids, the ****ed up bait and switch of rated WZs and the solo queue that was suppose to go with it, the horrible balance changes of 1.2 that drastically changed TTK. There were plenty of mistakes and present day MMO features not in the game. If it launched 6 months ago the outcome likely would've been much different but pressure to launch a game with millions sunk in to it forces a incomplete product into the market.

 

Still all that said many people still love the game, HB was inventive and awesome with still nothing else like it out there. The one thing BW can't seem to grasp is balance and FoTM this ****ed up arenas they refused to shake up the meta and after the PTS it was clear what classes were viable and most that didn't want to reroll to a PT/OP/Mara said **** it since BW "needed" their metrics for what was plainly obvious to everyone else. The mistakes keep coming and the failure to act swiftly to revert bad changes or balance slowly burns people out. Combined with lack of communication feedback creating an overly angry PvP community. It's really too bad for us that live the game but refuse to play the FoTY reroll game since balance changes are so slow and heavy handed.

[AlienEyeTX]

A bunch of game designers watching game logs and statistics: They're the ones who aren't using their brains. Internet random who knows nothing about game design and looks at a couple of characters at best: He's the genius who knows what's going on.

 

Yeah. That's probably how that goes.

 

[/sarcasm]

 

Dude, don't you know that person is a secret genius. And that, if employed by any gaming company, could produce the perfect mega-hit game that brings all of humanity together in one world-sized group hug?

[Malastare]

Dude, don't you know that person is a secret genius. And that, if employed by any gaming company, could produce the perfect mega-hit game that brings all of humanity together in one world-sized group hug?

 

Maybe you're right. Maybe he's the one person in the universe who knows how to find perfect PvP balance. Maybe he's the one guy who can run full game simulations in his head and discern the full set of consequences of trading damage for activation time against all pairs of eight possible classes and a couple dozen mob types.

 

Suck it, gamers of Proxima Centauri. He's ours. You'll have to suffer through moderately imbalanced games for centuries.

[genmyke]

Lol a lot of things had to do with people leaving personally Ilum was never a slide show for me and force leaping up to the platform to smash people was great fun while we out number the Pubs 80-20 at times. Broken raids, the ****ed up bait and switch of rated WZs and the solo queue that was suppose to go with it, the horrible balance changes of 1.2 that drastically changed TTK. There were plenty of mistakes and present day MMO features not in the game. If it launched 6 months ago the outcome likely would've been much different but pressure to launch a game with millions sunk in to it forces a incomplete product into the market.

 

Still all that said many people still love the game, HB was inventive and awesome with still nothing else like it out there. The one thing BW can't seem to grasp is balance and FoTM this ****ed up arenas they refused to shake up the meta and after the PTS it was clear what classes were viable and most that didn't want to reroll to a PT/OP/Mara said **** it since BW "needed" their metrics for what was plainly obvious to everyone else. The mistakes keep coming and the failure to act swiftly to revert bad changes or balance slowly burns people out. Combined with lack of communication feedback creating an overly angry PvP community. It's really too bad for us that live the game but refuse to play the FoTY reroll game since balance changes are so slow and heavy handed.

 

yeah ive had many friends quit for different reasons one of them quit for one you stated the launch operations was bugged to hell and i even experience my self with bosses in EV reset for no reason.

one just quit today because he simply hates how slow the combat system is mainly the GCD and not to mention the misfires that was happening did not sit too well with him.

my main issue is the class balance i understood no MMO will have perfect balance but i just want enough balance where any class is viable in PVP and PVE in all of their roles but bioware has done a very bad job at fixing this issue for years going on now.

Edited January 17, 2014 by genmyke

[OddballEasyEight]

yeah ive had many friends quit for different reasons one of them quit for one you stated the launch operations was bugged to hell and i even experience my self with bosses in EV reset for no reason.

one just quit today because he simply hates how slow the combat system is mainly the GCD and not to mention the misfires that was happening did not sit too well with him.

my main issue is the class balance i understood no MMO will have perfect balance but i just want enough balance where any class is viable in PVP and PVE in all of their roles but bioware has done a very bad job at fixing this issue for years going on now.

 

Heh, my buddy tried the game and quit because (and this is a direct quote) "There are too many people running around with lightsabers, I don't care if it's set thousands of years before the movies, everyone knows there were only 2 sith".

 

Yeah... people left for all kinds of reasons and some of them were completely moronic.

To claim that the PvP imbalances (again,

) is the reason the game had a mass exodus is pretty delusional to say the least.

[Savej]

LOL ahh the delusions of the self-important PvP crowd. Look, PvP has never played a part in any mass exodus of this game. It being a disappointment as a whole in the eyes of many is the reason, not Ilum or any balance changes.

 

People playing WZs at least occasionally along with people on PVP servers have actually represented a very significant percentage of players in this game (close to 50% at one point - maybe over that according to some numbers I have heard). I think there are currently much fewer of us than there has been in the past but i doubt that many posters on this board really know when/why we started leaving.

[Infernixx]

People playing WZs at least occasionally along with people on PVP servers have actually represented a very significant percentage of players in this game (close to 50% at one point - maybe over that according to some numbers I have heard). I think there are currently much fewer of us than there has been in the past but i doubt that many posters on this board really know when/why we started leaving.

 

People who play WZs occasionally aren't hardcore PVPers enough to quit because of PVP imbalance.

 

Screw up the PVE side of things bad enough and the game is toast, however.

[Andryah]

A bunch of game designers watching game logs and statistics: They're the ones who aren't using their brains. Internet random who knows nothing about game design and looks at a couple of characters at best: He's the genius who knows what's going on.

 

Yeah. That's probably how that goes.

 

[/sarcasm]

 

Indeed.

 

Not to mention using the popular and preferred communication style of the self-declared disaffected.... where the thread begins with pejorative attacks and ad hominem directed at the dev team. Always good for getting a gold response to emotional expression of indignation and/or support from more objective players.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Andryah

[Denerio]

 

Screw up the PVE side of things bad enough and the game is toast, however.

 

It's getting there.

[Infernixx]

It's getting there.

 

Opinions are awesome. That said, reality disagrees.

[Denerio]

Opinions are awesome. That said, reality disagrees.

 

Think you're drinking too much Koolaid cause your reality and mine are totally different.

[gurneyslabb]

Snipers have been top dps for way to long, things change get over it

[OddballEasyEight]

People playing WZs at least occasionally along with people on PVP servers have actually represented a very significant percentage of players in this game (close to 50% at one point - maybe over that according to some numbers I have heard). I think there are currently much fewer of us than there has been in the past but i doubt that many posters on this board really know when/why we started leaving.

 

That sounds great.

Where's the numbers backing that up?

Because if you ask RP'ers, they also make up "close to 50%" of the players (which they don't) and need to have their needs (speech bubbles and all that) catered to or the game will go under by their mass exodus.

 

Ok, most RP'ers don't whine that much or use hyperbole, but alot of PvP players on these forums seem to do so.

 

Oh, and I play WZ's occationally, and I hate PvP.

Does that mean I still count as one of those 50%?

Because I only do it to make a quick xp gain from dailies and weeklies.

If the PvP was unbalanced or not there at all, I still wouldn't leave this game... so I really shouldn't count to those 50% (and I'm not alone in this)

Edited January 17, 2014 by OddballEasyEight

[Malastare]

my main issue is the class balance i understood no MMO will have perfect balance but i just want enough balance where any class is viable in PVP and PVE in all of their roles but bioware has done a very bad job at fixing this issue for years going on now.

 

Ah, that's refreshing. I've never met anyone who cares about every class. Normally people just say that they care about every class but really just care about the couple that they play most. They often complain that some class isn't "viable" just because it doesn't match-or-beat every other option at that role. They ignore the fact that that isn't what "viable" means and that people have repeatedly shown that Warzone performance is determined overwhelmingly by player skill and that class differences are just a small factor.

 

It's so encouraging to meet someone who isn't like that.

[KTap]

Snipers have been top dps for way to long, things change get over it

 

This

[JediMasterSLC]

Ah, that's refreshing. I've never met anyone who cares about every class. Normally people just say that they care about every class but really just care about the couple that they play most. They often complain that some class isn't "viable" just because it doesn't match-or-beat every other option at that role. They ignore the fact that that isn't what "viable" means and that people have repeatedly shown that Warzone performance is determined overwhelmingly by player skill and that class differences are just a small factor.

 

It's so encouraging to meet someone who isn't like that.

 

I've found that it's a lot easier to care about every class and spec once you have a geared 55 of each lol.

 

Anyway, OP is winning thread since he made a cohesive argument, yet no one (Andryah and the other biodrones) have said anything to counter it, other than functionally "devs know best, they have metrics!". The history of the game is obvious proof that they don't. Instead of going into a thread with the assumption that BW knows exactly what they're doing and leaving the burden of proof on the OP to prove otherwise, why don't you counter his specific points.

 

By the way: yes, a lot of people left the game around 1.2-1.3 because of nerf hammers to sages, mandos and dps scoundrels, because of delayed and incomplete implementation of ranked, and because of the death of Ilum PvP.

Edited January 17, 2014 by JediMasterSLC