Bolstering and You: A letter from the Combat team

[Tankqull]

The only PvP items that get Bolstered are MH/OH, and that is b/c 78 items would clearly be BiS bc of how much more tech/force power they have.

 

No other PvP items are bolstered.

armor is bolstered too to match mitigation with 78 dmg values.

[Tankqull]

What's the difference between XXXX and XXXY? If it's small, it's likely a rounding "error", and the error may be with the number BW is using internally or it may just be an error with what BW is displaying.

well why would adding natural numbers lead to rounding errors[as 2+2=4 and not 3.5 rounded to 3 ]? his example clearly indicat two things

1. pvp items are bolstered more than what we have been told so far (only hilts to not make highend weapon BiS and armors to match the increased dmg by mitigation)

2. the in WZ check has either one crutial step of the WZ-entering-check missing (some kind of normalisation is missing) or is working different, both should not happen.

 

So what's the chance of Bolster getting applied in operations? I am all for open operations but it seems more than completely unfair that PvE gear is bolstered in WZs, but players can´t wear PvP gear in the operations and will not be kicked by PvE players doing the operations. ( ... That's just the way it works. But the stats advantage over players in PVP-equip is just ungodly.)

 

Again - HAPPY to engage in PvE. But why should warzone players get such a strong disadvantage in operation combat when PvErs (rightfully) don't get that disadvantage in the warzones where they earn expertise?

 

i changed you text slightly to match pvpers side...[red parts] so im all up for openworld bolstering if it is as well applied for pvp items in OPs/FPs...

Edited January 15, 2014 by Tankqull

[infedele]

i'm not interesting on regular warzone, but i cant play a ranked match with this situation!

 

the only solution is

 

A) Remove bolster from ranked arena

B) Set a gear check (2k+ expertise) to join Arena Ranked Match

C) Remove chance to change your gear inside arena

 

D) All Happy ^^

 

 

p.s., I will never understand why you insert bolster on arena ranked, ranked match is the pvp end game, it's like you insert bolster on nightmare ops so every ungeared player can do it...it's a totaly nonsense

 

p.s., you should also lock pvp equip on pve ---->a player should be unable to equip pvp item inside ops (relic-armoring...etc)

Edited January 15, 2014 by infedele

[Ancaglon]

For un-ranked Warzones, the Bolster should work such that the stat contribution from any given equipment slot (meaning the sum of any hilts/armorings/mods/enhancements, but NOT augments) should not exceed that of the entry-level PVP piece in that slot (and in fact should be a little less, so for example it could be set to the level of the older Partisan gear). This easy to do for armor, mainstat and endurance, but for "secondary stats" (power, crit, surge, alacrity, defense etc) this may require "scaling".

 

(This includes Mainhand and Offhand - so sure, come into a Warzone with your iLevel 78 mh+oh, but it won't perform any better than Partisan piece, in terms of damage and force/tech power).

 

Once that's been done, the slot can be assigned a nominal Expertise value equal to that of the entry level PVP slot, if, and only if, it has no expertise. (Otherwise it will use the Expertise it has, which would thus punish mix-and-match PVE+PVP).

 

The net result of these will be that people can begin to PVP in whatever PVE gear they are currently wearing, even if it's level 20 greens, and be competitive based on skill, but if they want to have better stats/better performance, they need to invest in PVP gear.

 

This would also reduce the need to fiddle with the numbers every time a new set of PVE gear is introduced, and new PVP "seasons" can be decoupled from PVE releases.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Ancaglon

[Lundorff]

Why not simplify this:

 

Level 1-54:

Everyone entering a Warzone is auto-equipped with a none-visual predetermined set of PVP gear. Like recruit gear that you do not have to buy - it just appears and disappears once you leave the Warzone. These sets would be balanced according to class, but it would make everyone far more equal and It would be very easy to tweak from a developers point of view. A level 10 would have the same stats as a level 54 (assuming same class) but the the level 54 would obviously have far more skills and (hopefully) experience.

 

New level 55:

Until you obtain a full set of Conqueror or Obroan gear you will still be forced into the same type of recruit gear as the level 1-54 bracket.

 

Conqueror level 55:

You have now obtained a full set of Conqueror gear and this is superior to recruit in every aspect. This is a set you must equip manually (like now) but if you roll with any PVE-item you will be force-equipped into 100% recruit gear. You either run in full recruit or in full Conqueror.

 

Obroan level 55:

Same goes here as with the Conqueror level: Either you run in full Obroan or Conqueror or you will be force-equipped into 100% recruit gear. Obroan is superior to Conqueror in every aspect.

 

Conclusion:

No more bickering over low-geared players.

No more problems with PVE-items being better than PVP.

No more questions about bolster.

You can still min/max as much as you desire but it has to be with the same type of gear and you must equip yourself in the same gear type.

[Morde_]

Can we just have recruit gear back and remove bolster?

 

Make recruit gear free and put it on the vendors inside warzones.

[varietasplus]

Can we just have recruit gear back and remove bolster?

 

Make recruit gear free and put it on the vendors inside warzones.

 

Nah, it used to be like that, you got a token when you reached level 50 with which you could exchange a complete Recruit gear for free. It did not work, players did not give a **** to exchange and equip it, just ran into the warzone like a headless chicken and ended up whining.

[Morde_]

Nah, it used to be like that, you got a token when you reached level 50 with which you could exchange a complete Recruit gear for free. It did not work, players did not give a **** to exchange and equip it, just ran into the warzone like a headless chicken and ended up whining.

 

I understand that, but instead of giving them a one time set when they hit 55 (which most PvE carebears throw out), just make a vendor that sells infinite amount of the pieces for free. If a noob enters in greens, everyone can yell at them to buy from the vendor in the spawn point.

[eartharioch]

well why would adding natural numbers lead to rounding errors[as 2+2=4 and not 3.5 rounded to 3 ]? his example clearly indicat two things

 

Because math

 

Example with five numbers:

10.25

10.5

10.5

10.75

10.75

--------

52.75 -> 53.

 

Now remove one 10.5 piece and add it back:

53 - 10.5 = 42.5 -> 43

43 + 10.5 = 53.5 -> 54

 

I'm not saying that if you unequip one piece of equipment and then re-equip it and your stats change that there isn't a problem, I'm saying that the problem isn't *necessarily* the algorithm (Bolster) determining the values but could be due to rounding errors using those values. And yes, the 'easy" solution is not to round.

 

BTW, since we don't know how the client works, it's possible that swtor stores and uses the Bolstered values exactly for combat purposes, but that the character screen / item display code uses (and rounds) copies of those values.

Edited January 15, 2014 by eartharioch

[varietasplus]

deleted Edited January 15, 2014 by varietasplus

[Lundorff]

I understand that, but instead of giving them a one time set when they hit 55 (which most PvE carebears throw out), just make a vendor that sells infinite amount of the pieces for free. If a noob enters in greens, everyone can yell at them to buy from the vendor in the spawn point.

 

Unfortunately people still can't not bothered. By my suggestion people would forced into a recruit-like state of stats unless they had full Conqueror or full Obroan. No more hassle.

[JediMasterSLC]

Unfortunately people still can't not bothered. By my suggestion people would forced into a recruit-like state of stats unless they had full Conqueror or full Obroan. No more hassle.

 

People that can't be bothered should not be catered to- they have no grounds for complaint. Period.

[vennian]

People that can't be bothered should not be catered to- they have no grounds for complaint. Period.

 

Yeah, that's what the game needs. Less players.

[Lundorff]

People that can't be bothered should not be catered to- they have no grounds for complaint. Period.

 

It's not about catering to but about making the game fun/equal for all. If I take the time to gear up but is paired with 3-4 team mates who doesn't care I will still be on the losing team. The whole point of bolster is to make everyone closer to equal and avoid facestomps but the reality is quite the opposite.

[Kirtastropohe]

Yeah, that's what the game needs. Less players.

 

yet that is what has happened because of bolster. Instead of one, easily managed set of PvP specific gear (free recruit gear), the decision was made to change major things in the game...resulting in changes to open world and pvp as well as a floodgate of unintended consequences.

 

Bottom line, the devs decided to go against common sense and logic in the name of making things easy or more fair. Ironically, figuring out proper PvP gear and how to max your items is neither easy nor fair. They were warned against this before they did it, but they ignored it.

 

We are all paying the price for their lack of vision.

[Zoom_VI]

I'm gonna have to test this out the next time I log on. If PvP gear needs to be bolstered to be superior to PvE gear, then Bolster must be even more f***d up than I originally thought.

 

Oh please the system is imo brilliant minus a few bugs related to a few few specific gear pieces.

 

Think of it like a min/maxed and augmented dread forged toon vs a min/maxed and augmented Obroan toon.

 

In a warzone the Obroan guy is significantly superior to the DF guy, b/c the Obroan guy has similar base stats to the DF, and has the advantage of full expertise compared to the smidge that the DF guy has.

 

In a PvE situation the DF guy is significantly superior to the Obroan guy b/c he has way better PvE stats.

 

And if the two get into a fight in open world they are balanced because the DF guy's significantly greater HP and base damage is equalized against the flat 30% DR and 60% damage increase the Obroan guy has.

 

The system protects both types of gear against the other while maintaining equality in Open World. The only problems with bolster are

1) some minor bugs with the PvE gear with ratings just below the PvP teirs that result in bolstered stats that are 0.5% better than conq gear.

2) the hardcore crowd are offended by it on principal.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[ParagonAX]

Oh please the system is imo brilliant minus a few bugs related to a few few specific gear pieces.

 

Think of it like a min/maxed and augmented dread forged toon vs a min/maxed and augmented Obroan toon.

 

In a warzone the Obroan guy is significantly superior to the DF guy, b/c the Obroan guy has similar base stats to the DF, and has the advantage of full expertise compared to the smidge that the DF guy has.

 

In a PvE situation the DF guy is significantly superior to the Obroan guy b/c he has way better PvE stats.

 

And if the two get into a fight in open world they are balanced because the DF guy's significantly greater HP and base damage is equalized against the flat 30% DR and 60% damage increase the Obroan guy has.

 

The system protects both types of gear against the other while maintaining equality in Open World. The only problems with bolster are

1) some minor bugs with the PvE gear with ratings just below the PvP teirs that result in bolstered stats that are 0.5% better than conq gear.

2) the hardcore crowd are offended by it on principal.

 

Wutisthisidonteven

[Zoom_VI]

Wutisthisidonteven

 

TLDR

It makes even the best PVE gear inferior in warzones/arenas

It makes even the best PvP gear inferior in raids

But in Open World which is shared ground between PvP and PvE people the best PvP gear is on equal footing with the best PvE gear.

 

One problem:

2) the hardcore crowd are offended by it on principal.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[JediMasterSLC]

TLDR

It makes even the best PVE gear inferior in warzones/arenas

It makes even the best PvP gear inferior in raids

But in Open World which is shared ground between PvP and PvE people the best PvP gear is on equal footing with the best PvE gear.

 

One problem:

 

1) Large body of evidence suggesting that some pve gear > obroan for some slots.

2) PvP gear > even the best PvE gear in open world. I'd rather have bolster in open world, where both pve and pvp should be taking place, then have it in instanced pvp.

Edited January 15, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[Zoom_VI]

1) Large body of evidence suggesting that some pve gear > obroan for some slots.

2) PvP gear > even the best geared PvErs in open world. I'd rather have bolster in open world, where both pve and pvp should be taking place, then having it in instanced pvp.

 

1) was addressed in my first post, there are bugs its not perfect, but the bugs are only with specific items of certain slots and the vast majority of PvE gear (like 99% of it) is strictly inferior in a bolstered environment. Also with the few bits that are bugged the difference is like 1% hardly anything to freak out about.

 

2) Firstly Its balanced by teir so the highest PvP teir is only countered in OW by the absolute highest PvE teir. There are so very few of the latter that many people don't realize the full extent of Dread Forged stat advantage. A min/maxed DPS in DF will have a minimum of 36k HP compared to min/maxed Obroan's 30-31k (note this assumes both are using mods with the same attack stat to endurance ratio)

 

Also balanced does not account for skill, many of the people with full Dread Forged have very little practices in countering players. I am quite sure that if all those PvE guys you killed where in PvP gear to match your own you probably would have still beat them anyway.

[EzioMessi]

Oh please the system is imo brilliant minus a few bugs related to a few few specific gear pieces.

 

Think of it like a min/maxed and augmented dread forged toon vs a min/maxed and augmented Obroan toon.

 

In a warzone the Obroan guy is significantly superior to the DF guy, b/c the Obroan guy has similar base stats to the DF, and has the advantage of full expertise compared to the smidge that the DF guy has.

 

In a PvE situation the DF guy is significantly superior to the Obroan guy b/c he has way better PvE stats.

 

And if the two get into a fight in open world they are balanced because the DF guy's significantly greater HP and base damage is equalized against the flat 30% DR and 60% damage increase the Obroan guy has.

 

The system protects both types of gear against the other while maintaining equality in Open World. The only problems with bolster are

1) some minor bugs with the PvE gear with ratings just below the PvP teirs that result in bolstered stats that are 0.5% better than conq gear.

2) the hardcore crowd are offended by it on principal.

 

Oh really? Are you telling me there aren't a ton of things wrong with Bolster currently?

 

1) PvE gear is better in some slots than PvP gear.

2) Returning PvPers are punished for wearing gear that was the best back in their day.

3) Ilum Bolster seems to have stopped awarding expertise properly. Blackhole gear which normally has full expertise gets like 1k in Ilum (during the last Gree Event at least)

4) Level 1 greens defeats tier 78 purples. That makes no sense at all. If a PvEr wants to transition to PvP (assuming he didn't read up about it), he will try to be in the best possible PvE gear he can be in, not in the worst PvE gear possible. The poor sod doesn't know that he is going to be punished for being in the best PvE gear.

 

Seriously, why they don't just bolster all PvE gear up/down to the stats of tier 61 purples and full expertise is beyond me. Seems a lot simpler than whatever algorithm they're using.

[Ottoattack]

Oh really? Are you telling me there aren't a ton of things wrong with Bolster currently?

 

1) PvE gear is better in some slots than PvP gear. Beside MH and OH most PvP gear is better. This is always 0.25% ~ 0.5% debate. I do not think it is worth the devs time and it reduces entry barriers to end game PvP if you understand how the bolster works.

2) Returning PvPers are punished for wearing gear that was the best back in their day. This is not really a bolster issue, but devs being lazy issue.

3) Ilum Bolster seems to have stopped awarding expertise properly. Blackhole gear which normally has full expertise gets like 1k in Ilum (during the last Gree Event at least). BW dropped the ball big time in the last Gree event, and even though that was noted, they did not bother to acknowledge (forget fixing it).

4) Level 1 greens defeats tier 78 purples. That makes no sense at all. If a PvEr wants to transition to PvP (assuming he didn't read up about it), he will try to be in the best possible PvE gear he can be in, not in the worst PvE gear possible. The poor sod doesn't know that he is going to be punished for being in the best PvE gear.

 

Seriously, why they don't just bolster all PvE gear up/down to the stats of tier 61 purples and full expertise is beyond me. Seems a lot simpler than whatever algorithm they're using.

 

For the PvE gear, I never understood why as your PvE gear improves above the 193 formula you lose significant expertise compared to stats gained. PvE gear level 61 to 66 are fully competitive and comparable to PvP gear. The difference in performance is maybe 1~2% max. At full 78s considering the stats gain and expertise lost, you are 15~20% behind PvP gear which makes no sense.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Ottoattack

[JediMasterSLC]

2) Firstly Its balanced by teir so the highest PvP teir is only countered in OW by the absolute highest PvE teir. There are so very few of the latter that many people don't realize the full extent of Dread Forged stat advantage. A min/maxed DPS in DF will have a minimum of 36k HP compared to min/maxed Obroan's 30-31k (note this assumes both are using mods with the same attack stat to endurance ratio).

 

No. 60% damage multiplier and 37.5% damage reduction is way better than 6k more hp and decently better pve stats....

[Zoom_VI]

For the PvE gear, I never understood why as your PvE gear improves above the 193 formula you lose significant expertise compared to stats gained. PvE gear level 61 to 66 are fully competitive and comparable to PvP gear. The difference in performance is maybe 1~2% max. At full 78s considering the stats gain and expertise lost, you are 15~20% behind PvP gear which makes no sense.

 

That's to kill its viability. They don't want you PvP'ing in raid gear. Just like they don't want you raiding in PvP gear. Two different gameplay modes, two different grinds.

[Zoom_VI]

No. 60% damage multiplier and 37.5% damage reduction is way better than 6k more hp and decently better pve stats....

 

iirc you realize with 78's you can like throw 13k hits around like nothing? also 36k is the low end range assuming that person has stacked the least possible endurance and maximum possible offensive stats. I.E unlettered mods.

 

But such fights are extremely rare, I've seen a Obroan v 78 fight once ever (I was in the Obroan albet on my tank) its a insanely fast fight. and yea its anot a perfect balance but its enough that the PvE guy has a pretty good sized fighting chance rather than the lolrape that you used to see.

 

Besides that was not the point I was trying to make the point was bolster prevents the pre 2.0 scenario of BiS in PvP including PvE modifications. and prevents people like me from going and doing progression raids in PvP gear.