Regarding 2.6 operative / scoundrel changes (dev's post)

[Nortt]

operatives do not need survivability. every single warzone I play in I never have over 2 deaths. If anything I always bring home 0 deaths. WE NEED MORE DMG. concealment operatives are doing the least amount of dmg out of any class. you can see all classes pull 800k+ games but its almost impossible for a operative to do that. we have stealth, cloaking screen, and evasion. that's ultimate survivability. you have the chance to pick and choose the fights you wanna fight in. you aren't a jug or a mara. operatives are ment to be sneaky and do a lot of dmg. THEY ARENT MENT TO BE TANKS. IF YOU WANT MORE SURVIVABILITY PLAY AS A ASSASSIN OR A SHADOW.

[Nortt]

please don't give us survivability. we don't need it. we need more DMG! MORE DMG!

[darthgamer]

operatives do not need survivability. every single warzone I play in I never have over 2 deaths. If anything I always bring home 0 deaths. WE NEED MORE DMG. concealment operatives are doing the least amount of dmg out of any class. you can see all classes pull 800k+ games but its almost impossible for a operative to do that. we have stealth, cloaking screen, and evasion. that's ultimate survivability. you have the chance to pick and choose the fights you wanna fight in. you aren't a jug or a mara. operatives are ment to be sneaky and do a lot of dmg. THEY ARENT MENT TO BE TANKS. IF YOU WANT MORE SURVIVABILITY PLAY AS A ASSASSIN OR A SHADOW.

 

Same here idk why ppl want to stay out of stealth more then they need get in GET OUT that's a rogue which is what we are.

[Nortt]

and im sorry, but if a operative opens on you and you are a anything but a tank or wear heavy armor then you should die. that's how it is. sins are the same way. its easy to fight someone when they use theirs cds. you just have to be smart about it. but if you look at the damage that conc operatives are getting and how many deaths they are taking home it doesn't add up. they are bringing little to 0 deaths home but average 200kdmg-500kdmg and that's if you have great energy management and have a healer making sure you don't die. but regardless for you ppl who think survivability is the key then you are dead wrong, if you want to survive then go heals. if you want to do dmg then go conc. but you cant have both. if you want both then operative is the wrong class for you.............

[Nortt]

oh and I think I forgot to mention that operatives have a roll now? that is also a very very over powered survivability tool that can be used whenever they feel like.....

[player-klaus]

@Nortt, Darthdeathgamer &co

 

you are obviously very new to the game. I say you are not experienced enough with swtorpvp to write here.

 

if players who do arena on a regular basis state that lethality/concealment has not enough defensives to be viable for a ranked arena team, then this is a fact.

 

and im sorry, but if a operative opens on you and you are a anything but a tank or wear heavy armor then you should die. that's how it is. sins are the same way.

are you on coccaine? ever heared of balance? everyone would play operative then, why would you denie sages snipers, marauders... the right to pvp?

oh, i get it. u are in mid-tier-pvp atm, feeling like a god, the best of the best. newsflash: the real pvp starts at 55 in ranked environment. when u will get there, i say we will see a few "buff my operative", "we are so useless threads."

 

we have stealth, cloaking screen, and evasion. that's ultimate survivability.

rofl, ever played against a competent team?

 

oh and I think I forgot to mention that operatives have a roll now? that is also a very very over powered survivability tool that can be used whenever they feel like.....

are u familiar with operative energy regen system? ever heard of slows?...roots not to mention

/facepalm

 

Same here idk why ppl want to stay out of stealth more then they need get in GET OUT that's a rogue which is what we are.

in a ranked arena game u can enter stealth how often?

 

pls dear BW dont listen to theese kind of ppl.

[Nortt]

alright, you clearly don't understand. I was the highest rating operative on my server before they reset it. I don't need you telling me that I have 0 ranked experience. not once have I talked about leth...but you clearly must be a pver because you think a dmg class needs survivability. go play a sin homie not a operative....ops are glass cannons. I didn't know glass cannons were suppose to stay alive like a tank...but hey you must be the expert since you run conc in ranked....

[Nortt]

and if you were remotely skilled, you can kill anyone other than a tank and heavy armor in a easy stun lock....I do it all the time. and if you were good enough then you would know how to conserve ur energy when you are rolling. but let me flex my epeen more and say that I got a 10,950 hidden strike in a warzone today. but I clearly don't pvp. AT ALL even tho im valor 100 and ive been playing operative since beta. did you forget the 30% dmg decrease on hidden strike? how about this, go duel a hybrid sin and see how much DMG you do

[Nortt]

we don't need these clowns asking for something that is already out. if you want to smash ppl and not die easy play a mara, not a operative. if you want to do dmg and survive then play a sin, not a operative. my point being is that you shouldnt change a class to mirror the other dps classes. keep the operative unique, please don't make it into a mara or a sin Edited January 9, 2014 by Nortt

[player-klaus]

well, and i'm the Qeen of England.

[CaptainApop]

alright, you clearly don't understand. I was the highest rating operative on my server before they reset it. I don't need you telling me that I have 0 ranked experience

 

By any chance are you also a graduate from the top of his class in the Navy Seals?

[Nortt]

read the class description before you choose an advanced class. theres NO TANK tree in operatives so why buff survivability?

[Nortt]

oh and lets actually look at a PVE standpoint. all I do is pvp. but if you look at concealment in the pve factor they are useless. they have 0 sustained dmg over time and all they can rely on is burst (conc, not leth). so by buffing survivability for a operative is just about pointless because in a pve situation there is a tank that takes the dmg not the operative....whats next? you people thinking operatives should have taunt???

[Nortt]

assassin tree: 1 tank 2 dps

operative tree: 1 heal 2 dps

 

so why give survivability to a class that isn't suppose to be tanking???

 

 

noobs.....

[Uber_the_Goober]

I think a majority of the people in this game asking for survivability, fail to understand one important fact about a "Glass Cannon" class.

 

They hit like trucks, but crumble under pressure. It's specifically designed that way... in countless MMO's and the playstyles do not differ much.

 

Huge damage, weak defensively often associated with stealth capabilities.

 

 

Yeah, I get it...but I still want more evasion. I want an ability that I can activate to improve my dodge chance/evasion. It's not baseline defense, it's not mega mitigation. It's the ability to situationally use an evasion ability...coupled with a MINOR boost to the amount of damage that shield probe absorbs - because we all know shield probe is useless currently...it absorbs like ONE hit and then drops. If I were stunned by multiple opponents, then naturally I would still evaporate quickly. But...with evasive imperative in my toolkit, I could creatively out wit my opponents if I were skilled enough to use it. As it stands, evasion is only usable once per fight or every other fight even. And it doesn't block all incoming damage...and if I have to save it for when I pop my cloaking screen (in order to cleanse the dots on me and not be brought out of stealth) then it's not a usable tool during the fight, and thus not a usable tool for improving my survivability.

 

Capiche? Leave me glass, I'm fine with that. I just want to have more opportunities to use my evasion skill, which is really the only defensive ability I've got.

 

Plus, we're not really "cannons"...our dps is about on par with a dps jugg or a mara...but we're supposed to be frontloaded with all this damage. We're not...they took that away. We're just able to apply the SAME amount of damage that any other dps class can apply...but we can do it suddenly from stealth. I crit for 6-7k on hidden strike against equally geared opponents...and it's only the acid blade dot that makes my ability do as much damage as a 10k maul crit, or a 10k smash...but the thing is, I have to wait for that damage to hit and it might be cleansed away.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Uber_the_Goober

[Ahebish]

Speaking of survivability: Since so many of you want it.

 

How many of you realize we are the only class/spec that does not have a god mode cd to fall back on? I include Lethality in this statement as well.

 

Suggestion: Take our shield probe; change it to do exactly what Deflect does for Assassins.

 

That is all we need in terms of survivability.

 

If BW feels they need to increase the CD then so be it... but shield probe needs to be far better than what it is now.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Ahebish

[Ahebish]

Yeah, I get it...but I still want more evasion. I want an ability that I can activate to improve my dodge chance/evasion. It's not baseline defense, it's not mega mitigation. It's the ability to situationally use an evasion ability...coupled with a MINOR boost to the amount of damage that shield probe absorbs - because we all know shield probe is useless currently...it absorbs like ONE hit and then drops. If I were stunned by multiple opponents, then naturally I would still evaporate quickly. But...with evasive imperative in my toolkit, I could creatively out wit my opponents if I were skilled enough to use it. As it stands, evasion is only usable once per fight or every other fight even. And it doesn't block all incoming damage...and if I have to save it for when I pop my cloaking screen (in order to cleanse the dots on me and not be brought out of stealth) then it's not a usable tool during the fight, and thus not a usable tool for improving my survivability.

 

Capiche? Leave me glass, I'm fine with that. I just want to have more opportunities to use my evasion skill, which is really the only defensive ability I've got.

 

Plus, we're not really "cannons"...our dps is about on par with a dps jugg or a mara...but we're supposed to be frontloaded with all this damage. We're not...they took that away. We're just able to apply the SAME amount of damage that any other dps class can apply...but we can do it suddenly from stealth. I crit for 6-7k on hidden strike against equally geared opponents...and it's only the acid blade dot that makes my ability do as much damage as a 10k maul crit, or a 10k smash...but the thing is, I have to wait for that damage to hit and it might be cleansed away.

 

I agree with everything you said, but survivability isn't the answer to it. And no our damage IS NOT on par with any other DPS spec in the game. This has been proven through DPS parses for a LONG time. This class was nerfed so hard it went from TOP of the DPS charts to the bottom.... And everyone knows it... it's why we are not taken into raids as a preference.... PVP aside. And I myself have parsed my OP vs a Smash Jug, and my smash jug did 30-50% more burst damage than my conc with less gear in the same amount of time.... That was before 1/2 of the nerf's even went through yet.

 

Like you said, they took away our damage, not our survivability. Our survivability suffered because we lost our damage.... Now that we are getting some of that damage back our survivability will increase. Not to mention our dps in PVE will increase as well.

 

Like you said our acid blade dot can be cleansed... which is all well and good and that fact has never been an issue for this class at any point in time. IF people are smart enough to get the rotations right.

 

Not to mention we get a small increase in tech crit chance which is way under valued as a build for most concealments....

 

Having said all this; I still feel the spec itself needs a generic crit chance increase since we have the LOWEST base crit chance out of any class in the game. Yes, our crit chance was also nerfed in case some people weren't around when that happend.

 

Read my prior post about shield probe.... That's all WE need.... everything else beyond damage and my shield probe suggestion is quality of life.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Ahebish

[Phantasym]

I like the changes I see but it would be nice if hidden strike could work on a mob below 30% health. This would allow you to use it more then 2 or 3 times a boss fight for pve similar to an assassins assassinate.

 

As far as survivability perhaps changing the 2% dodge that is part of scouting to a 15% or 20% reduction in AE damage would likely help a lot for ops etc, the 2% dodge doesn't really do much since you only dodge attacks directed at you and then only melee ranged not force or tech. Alternatively just straight up 2% damage reduction would be better then the dodge.

[NogueiraA]

I'm seeing people compariong OPS to Marauders... Seriously? Warriors are meant to be the FIRST LINE of offense, which means the class that will pressure the enemy healers, which means the class that will eat stunlock after stunlock. If you nerf them, no one will play a warrior. PVP would be only ranged classes + healers LOSed, no one to put pressure on that LOSed healer.

Ops are meant to be sneaky, to kill that alone target in seconds, vanishing the fight asap. You're NOT the first line of offense, warriors and tanks are. Think of this before you ask for nerfs to warriors. Just one more thing, warriors do not have a 4sec stun.

 

The changes will be great, keep it up Devs, we need more QoL and dmg buff for this class. I would like an increase to Lethality to proc that free Cull though. This would be HUGE.

[JaingSkiratapwns]

WHAT CHOO TALKIN' BOUT "PEOPLE LIKE YOU?!"

 

Ahem...anyway. Eric said survivability is being looked at, and will receive changes in the future. So it would appear that "people like me", who actually do have a say in class balance, are doing precisely what I and many other operatives asked for. Perhaps not in the same way, but it's still enough to say that your comments are null and void here.

 

I stand by my opinion that a burst DPS class doesn't need a ton of survivability. But this game is almost dead anyways, so what difference does it make?

Edited January 10, 2014 by JaingSkiratapwns

[player-klaus]

atm it is possible to kill a GUARDED operative through TAUNT while getting HEALED. in the duration of a 4 sec hardstun.

this is just not fair.

 

even sorcs get dr when stunned.

 

as far as the dps-buff goes -but slippery is something else.

[Luckeyduckey]

We're also getting a 5 second duration buff to TA (Awesome!) and a 14% damage increase to Hidden Strike (along with 1.5 seconds CD reduction [?] and cost reduced by 2.) Overall, 2.6 should be fun for Concealment.

[EnderSeventyFour]

Internal coodlown stops it from happening repeatedly.

You are right I was missing that point ! Internal cooldown of 10 seconds indeed. But with a TA duration of 10 seconds also can't you still keep it ? It might be tight but possible, if you manage to trigger Laceration every 10seconds, maybe with a bit of help from Alacrity to squeeze 7 GCD into a 10s window and get your Laceration precisely on the 10s mark.

 

We're also getting a 5 second duration buff to TA (Awesome!) and a 14% damage increase to Hidden Strike (along with 1.5 seconds CD reduction [?] and cost reduced by 2.) Overall, 2.6 should be fun for Concealment.

 

Source ?

If this is true it changes what I've just written, if the TA duration becomes longer than the Tactical Opportunity CD, then no need to shiv.

Edited January 10, 2014 by EnderSeventyFour

[Orangeskye]

You are right I was missing that point ! Internal cooldown of 10 seconds indeed. But with a TA duration of 10 seconds also can't you still keep it ? It might be tight but possible, if you manage to trigger Laceration every 10seconds, maybe with a bit of help from Alacrity to squeeze 7 GCD into a 10s window and get your Laceration precisely on the 10s mark.

 

 

 

Source ?

If this is true it changes what I've just written, if the TA duration becomes longer than the Tactical Opportunity CD, than no need to shiv.

 

Hm, that's interesting to note about the need to Shiv. Given that the TA buff is true. How will that affect rotation/energy management for Conceal? I admit I am almost solely a Lethality player

[Wainamoinen]

Interesting to read the incoming changes. Not "awesome", I'd say "incremental" is mostly nearer the mark. But that's fine.

 

The multiple buffs on Sucker Punch will definitely help DPS. It'll now automatically proc Flying Fists for bonus damage (outside the internal FF cd) and energy return, instead of unreliably leaving you short sometimes. Added to that there's the chunky crit bonus damage now that Underdog's no longer inexplicably buffing Tendon Blast. If you weren't already, punch those suckers as much as possible.

 

Then there's the switch from Alacrity to crit chance on Rolling Punches. If you were efficient on using Back Blast and Shoot First to keep Flechette Round up, you had this buff running a lot of the time. Note this is a buff to crit chance, not Crit stat, so it's a very handy improvement. The limp-wristed-no-crit-burst won't happen as often, and we'll be critting more often after the opener. Lost the underrated Alacrity buff to balance, but I can live with that.

 

And of course we need more surviviability. I'd argue it was more urgent than the (needed) boost to damage. It would be great if everyone could simply disregard those posting who either a) identify with another class and are crying about the weakest, unviable PvP class being fixed - before it's even happened ; b) hold ill-informed fantasies about needing no defences while they run around three-shotting everyone inside stunlock in a warzone of even semi-competent opponents.

 

Anyway, time to see how these DPS buffs work out in practice, and wait on what's proposed for survivability.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Wainamoinen