BW: How to nerf healers w/o nerfing healers.

[Sangrar]

I think they should just adjust it in expertise with max expertise being 0% healing reduction instead of what it is currently. Start it at 50% healing reduction with 0 expertise and it slowly decreases by 1% for every 40 points of expertise.

 

No, this fixes scoundrel healers, but it kills commando healers who are barely cutting it as it is in 8v8 and are crap in arenas, and it still would leave scoundrels as most desirable healer regardless. Do not kill ALL healers for the problems of one specific advanced class.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Sangrar

[AlrikFassbauer]

Translation: Roll a flavor of the month (Operative healer) and contribute to PvP becoming even more boring. Lets just all be Operative healers and no one will ever die.

 

Good reply.

[Vodrin]

Right now healers are the bane for WZ queues. Having them or not having them pretty much dictates how the match will go (especially for Arenas), and until you make non-ranked queues evenly pair sides it will remain very frustrating.

 

Aside from that, healers currently do not require accuracy to heal friendly targets, which makes several debuffs useless on healers. DPS and Tank classes have hardly any tools to combat healers (especially Operatives/scoundrels). Even the uncleanseable Madness dots can be removed by Ops/scounds...

 

I propose two changes:

1. Make healing dependent on accuracy. It won't make it necessary to gear above 100% tech accuracy for PVE, but others class' accuracy debuffs will actually do something.

 

2. Make tank class' single target and aoe taunts lower heal accuracy (as well as damage).

 

I'm not a fan of this. If healing really is too strong (and I am not entirely sure that it is), the best way to nerf it without affecting PvE is to simply increase the effectiveness of trauma and introduce a second type of heal debuff that tanks can spec for that stacks with the existing debuff.

 

Edit: if this were done then both the commando/merc and sorc/sage healers would need improved resource management tools

Edited January 2, 2014 by Vodrin

[Baalzamon]

Taunt = -30% healing and damage.

Healing fixed.

 

That would be great but this is EA Bioware we are talking about.

[Sangrar]

I'm not a fan of this. If healing really is too strong (and I am not entirely sure that it is), the best way to nerf it without affecting PvE is to simply increase the effectiveness of trauma and introduce a second type of heal debuff that tanks can spec for that stacks with the existing debuff.

 

Edit: if this were done then both the commando/merc and sorc/sage healers would need improved resource management tools

 

that's the thing though, everyone is mad about SCOUNDREL healing, that they want the WHOLE THING nerfed, even though classes like commando healer, who are barely cutting it in 8v8 and are useless for ranked will be KILLED COMPLETELY if they get nerfed anymore for pvp. To all you healer complainers, NERF SCOUNDREL HEALERS DO NOT BLAME ALL HEALERS FOR THEM!

 

A universal nerf to all pvp healing will still leave scoundrels on top for healing and only finally finish off commando healing completely. A complete nerf to pvp healing is HIGHLY inadvisable at this point.

[dego-harmonium]

Personally i would rather spend more time fighting then in the dead box, and I dont want healers getting killed so much that no one wants to play them. I would be all for them adding taunts to healing, and make the tank roles more effective and usefull, and maybe change taunt to only work in tank stance so it does not give sins/juggs/pt's a advantage vs healers Edited January 2, 2014 by dego-harmonium

[alexsamma]

Let me just cut straight to the chase here, if you think healing is to strong (and I am not talking about those random 8vs8 warzones with 1 million healers) you are BAD.

 

FFS, if you can't kill a healer with cc + burst that almost any DPS class has access to then there is no hope for you; if you are complaining about not being able to kill guarded/peeled healers then you are really complaining about how effective teamwork is (try it yourself).

 

This constant QQ about healers is annoying, stop trying to change the game to suit your level of play, instead adjust your deficiencies.

Edited January 2, 2014 by alexsamma

[sithBracer]

The answer to all the problems is in this link:

 

https://www.rcga.org/_uploads/InternalPix/LearnToPlayPyramid.jpg

[Sangrar]

This constant QQ about healers is annoying, stop trying to change the game to suit your level of play, instead adjust your deficiencies.

 

especially since their beef is with soundrels and now they want to ruin every healer for it. I swear commando healers are already useless for ranked some of these peoples "solutions" only make it worse while ironically leaving scoundrels still at the top

[sithBracer]

especially since their beef is with soundrels and now they want to ruin every healer for it. I swear commando healers are already useless for ranked some of these peoples "solutions" only make it worse while ironically leaving scoundrels still at the top

 

Scoundrels are not that great at ranked either. They are very squishy, have no AoE defense, have a bad DCD, are easy to burst down by 4 dps and their heals are very weak. They also do not have the ability to keep up a person being focused. It takes a combination of a good healer, good tank, and good dps all using their CCs and abilities to make a good team. If you don't have that, 3 dps can burst down a scoundrel in 2-3GCDs. Heck, I remember being burst down in 1 GCD before. It's not the healers fault that dps don't know how to attack the guy standing underneath the HUGE target marker. That is a L2P issue.

[dego-harmonium]

Let me just cut straight to the chase here, if you think healing is to strong (and I am not talking about those random 8vs8 warzones with 1 million healers) you are BAD.

 

FFS, if you can't kill a healer with cc + burst that almost any DPS class has access to then there is no hope for you; if you are complaining about not being able to kill guarded/peeled healers then you are really complaining about how effective teamwork is (try it yourself).

 

This constant QQ about healers is annoying, stop trying to change the game to suit your level of play, instead adjust your deficiencies.

 

this x1000

[Joesixxpack]

Force and merc healers already need a snorkel to breathe, why pile more **** up around them?

 

Emergent Emergencies and the general ease of refreshing UH are the only things maybe worth discussing. I don't think there's a problem; this falls under the "good players take care of business, bad ones don't" rule.

 

When a team has no healers and the other does, or some similar situation, it may indeed suck but specs, debuffs, etc. are irrelevant to that.

[alexsamma]

especially since their beef is with soundrels and now they want to ruin every healer for it. I swear commando healers are already useless for ranked some of these peoples "solutions" only make it worse while ironically leaving scoundrels still at the top

 

Seriously though, since the change to leap/pull immunity scoundrel healers are fairly easy to kill/shut down.

 

Emergency medpack is a very weak heal, and once you force them into spam mode it is easy to burst them to ~30%, cc and kill them; if they vanish you just adjust your target and use low resource abilities while you look for them to pop out and then immediately switch to the scoundrel/op (in the past this was an issue because they could ignore most gap closers). If the scoundrel/op actually runs so far away from the fight that you cannot leap/pull/force speed to them while they are healing up you now have 3-5 gcds to burn someone.

 

I used to struggle with killing ops/scoundrels healers, then I leveled one to 55, killing ops/scoundrels is no longer an issue.

[Sangrar]

Seriously though, since the change to leap/pull immunity scoundrel healers are fairly easy to kill/shut down.

 

Emergency medpack is a very weak heal, and once you force them into spam mode it is easy to burst them to ~30%, cc and kill them; if they vanish you just adjust your target and use low resource abilities while you look for them to pop out and then immediately switch to the scoundrel/op (in the past this was an issue because they could ignore most gap closers). If the scoundrel/op actually runs so far away from the fight that you cannot leap/pull/force speed to them while they are healing up you now have 3-5 gcds to burn someone.

 

I used to struggle with killing ops/scoundrels healers, then I leveled one to 55, killing ops/scoundrels is no longer an issue.

 

still though, they make more heals than anyone, and everyone got mad about healing in general thanks to them, and their capability to heal in a limited amount of time still exceeds commando by a lot, then people talk about nerfing all healing in pvp, even though commandos, who while still good in 8v8 for now, with enough healing nerfs will be brought down to nothing at some point.

[Sangrar]

Scoundrels are not that great at ranked either. They are very squishy, have no AoE defense, have a bad DCD, are easy to burst down by 4 dps and their heals are very weak. They also do not have the ability to keep up a person being focused. It takes a combination of a good healer, good tank, and good dps all using their CCs and abilities to make a good team. If you don't have that, 3 dps can burst down a scoundrel in 2-3GCDs. Heck, I remember being burst down in 1 GCD before. It's not the healers fault that dps don't know how to attack the guy standing underneath the HUGE target marker. That is a L2P issue.

 

Here is the thing, for the first few days of season 1 I played. Here is how it went down: On the first day I kept getting these guys who had my back and were experts at taking out a scoundrel healer quickly. However, after that day though I no longer got those 2 guys. Instead I got a bunch of people who almost always shouted "crap I wanted a scoundrel healer" and then when we lost because they did not dps the healer, yelled at me, pointed out the HUGE difference between my healing and that of the Operative or Scoundrel we fought, and told me to either never que for ranked again, pvp again, and at one point I got trashed on fleet and told to uninstall (apparently when you group up with one of the guys at the top of the ranking list, they take any loss very badly), of course I sent reports about all these guys, still though. While I did have a few good ranked matches, where I was even congratulated for holding up the whole match despite what they considered a "handicapped" advanced class (their words not mine). Anyway though, point is, scoundrels still do more healing than the other advanced classes, are more mobile with the heals while I mainly have to depend on a series of casts with a lot less instant heals at my disposal, and well, everyone for ranked still prefers a scoundrel healer than anyone else, whether they really did good in ranked or not.

 

Just wanted to add, been meaning to ask this. What should be done in the following scenario? A tank is guarding a scoundrel/operative healer, both are in close range of eachother, if you attack the healer the guard reduces his damage while you attack allowing him to self heal while his team pushes you off him and buys him time, or you attack the tank who is getting all the heals, or the dps's who also get the heals. In matches I was told that when guarded that you don't attack the scoundrel healer first, but I saw the healer healing the person they did decide to focus while 3 of the other team were on top of me ccing me to the point of uselessness, then afterwards pounding my team to death, and later followed by my team cursing me out saying a lot of crap, nicest of which was "I hope I never see you again moron, how could you que with a commando healer idiot?"

 

Seriously all this stuff is what I have been through, what other people told me, and no one can deny that in a ranked match they would rather have a scoundrel/operative healer at their side than a commando healer. I am still a big fan of commando healing and hope it gets a little more viable for arenas in the future, I only tried ranked because of all the hype about it and the fact I was geared for it and since I did at least a competent job in 8v8's how hard could it be? I was horribly wrong, I am partly a noob I know that but I just did not figure it would be that bad.

[Arcadius-Fett]

Or you could just L2P?

^^^^^

[doodbro]

Right now healers are the bane for WZ queues. Having them or not having them pretty much dictates how the match will go (especially for Arenas), and until you make non-ranked queues evenly pair sides it will remain very frustrating.

 

Aside from that, healers currently do not require accuracy to heal friendly targets, which makes several debuffs useless on healers. DPS and Tank classes have hardly any tools to combat healers (especially Operatives/scoundrels). Even the uncleanseable Madness dots can be removed by Ops/scounds...

 

I propose two changes:

1. Make healing dependent on accuracy. It won't make it necessary to gear above 100% tech accuracy for PVE, but others class' accuracy debuffs will actually do something.

 

2. Make tank class' single target and aoe taunts lower heal accuracy (as well as damage).

 

this is why this game is fail. the community. of all the things wrong with ranked pvp, you are going to make your gripe with healers ( only one of which i viable and easy to kill without guard?). if operatives get nerfed, you won't see any healers at all. sorcs and mandos have already left the game in droves.

[doodbro]

Let me just cut straight to the chase here, if you think healing is to strong (and I am not talking about those random 8vs8 warzones with 1 million healers) you are BAD.

 

FFS, if you can't kill a healer with cc + burst that almost any DPS class has access to then there is no hope for you; if you are complaining about not being able to kill guarded/peeled healers then you are really complaining about how effective teamwork is (try it yourself).

 

This constant QQ about healers is annoying, stop trying to change the game to suit your level of play, instead adjust your deficiencies.

 

amen. it's almost like you are going to have to take these dudes, make them get in voice comms and tell them what to do and tell them what buttons to push to get the point.

 

"ok discharge, stun, maul, smash...see! he died!"

Edited January 2, 2014 by doodbro

[sithBracer]

Just wanted to add, been meaning to ask this. What should be done in the following scenario? A tank is guarding a scoundrel/operative healer, both are in close range of eachother, if you attack the healer the guard reduces his damage while you attack allowing him to self heal while his team pushes you off him and buys him time, or you attack the tank who is getting all the heals, or the dps's who also get the heals. In matches I was told that when guarded that you don't attack the scoundrel healer first, but I saw the healer healing the person they did decide to focus while 3 of the other team were on top of me ccing me to the point of uselessness, then afterwards pounding my team to death, and later followed by my team cursing me out saying a lot of crap, nicest of which was "I hope I never see you again moron, how could you que with a commando healer idiot?"

 

This is a rough scenario, but in ranked you need to communicate with real time using voice. There are many videos that show how to win in this case, but the short answer is, take turns mezzing the healer and burst down the weakest dps. If the tank is switching guard, you will have to take down the tank. Any strong aoe attacks (smash) should be used to hit both the tank and the guy he is guarding for 150% damage to the tank. Or you need to coordinate getting the healer away from the tank and bursting him down.

 

Seriously all this stuff is what I have been through, what other people told me, and no one can deny that in a ranked match they would rather have a scoundrel/operative healer at their side than a commando healer. I am still a big fan of commando healing and hope it gets a little more viable for arenas in the future, I only tried ranked because of all the hype about it and the fact I was geared for it and since I did at least a competent job in 8v8's how hard could it be? I was horribly wrong, I am partly a noob I know that but I just did not figure it would be that bad.

 

Commando healers and sorc healers are very bad in the arena setting because of the mechanics of their heals. They are too easy to shutdown. Op healers are the only viable healers in arenas, but that doesn't mean they are gods. They are easy to burst down on their own. I did it and had it done to me. 2-3 dps can easily burst down an op healer who is unguarded. If they have a good tank who taunts and switches guard, then the op healer isn't your real problem, the tank is. A tank/healer combo is very tough to beat without coordination, but they can't kill you either (except for these new PT "tanks"). In a pug getting a tank like that is rare, but if you do, attack a dps. You don't need to kill the healer to win, you just need to kill one person on their side.

[AdmiralParmesan]

A more simply solution would be to nerf guard. Healers are really only unkillable with guard on them, all of them can go down relatively easy without it. It would also allow you to improve the function of the merc and sorc healers without making them too OP.

 

Guard should only be able to be kept on a target for a short period of time, or it should have it's damage transfer reduced

Edited January 2, 2014 by AdmiralParmesan

[sithBracer]

A more simply solution would be to nerf guard. Healers are really only unkillable with guard on them, all of them can go down relatively easy without it.

 

Guard should only be able to be kept on a target for a short period of time, or it should have it's damage transfer reduced

 

Some people have suggested this, but the tanks got angry. If you nerf guard, then tanks would have almost no role in wzs. I'm personally not a tank (in pvp at least) but I get what they are saying.

Edited January 2, 2014 by sithBracer

[Sangrar]

This is a rough scenario, but in ranked you need to communicate with real time using voice. There are many videos that show how to win in this case, but the short answer is, take turns mezzing the healer and burst down the weakest dps. If the tank is switching guard, you will have to take down the tank. Any strong aoe attacks (smash) should be used to hit both the tank and the guy he is guarding for 150% damage to the tank. Or you need to coordinate getting the healer away from the tank and bursting him down.

 

 

 

Commando healers and sorc healers are very bad in the arena setting because of the mechanics of their heals. They are too easy to shutdown. Op healers are the only viable healers in arenas, but that doesn't mean they are gods. They are easy to burst down on their own. I did it and had it done to me. 2-3 dps can easily burst down an op healer who is unguarded. If they have a good tank who taunts and switches guard, then the op healer isn't your real problem, the tank is. A tank/healer combo is very tough to beat without coordination, but they can't kill you either (except for these new PT "tanks"). In a pug getting a tank like that is rare, but if you do, attack a dps. You don't need to kill the healer to win, you just need to kill one person on their side.

 

thanks for giving me a good response, I ask ingame people just troll me. Anyway, thankfully it appears commandos are getting a buff according to a precent post by musco, and scoundrel dps is going to be fixed!

[Aikion]

What we need is diminishing returns on interrupts. Then we can talk healer/tank/dps balance.

[Solarenergy]

No, this fixes scoundrel healers, but it kills commando healers who are barely cutting it as it is in 8v8 and are crap in arenas, and it still would leave scoundrels as most desirable healer regardless. Do not kill ALL healers for the problems of one specific advanced class.

 

This. Don't punish all healers just because one specific class is overpowered in comparison to the others. The only thing that makes sense is to buff the other two classes to the viability of the op class.

[Sylvarine]

Lately I have been running parsec when I pvp, just now I was on my Combat spec sentinel and for the final engagement I pulled 3,361 dps... in non-optimized 65's (on a warzone dummie I am parsing ~2650 over five minutes).

 

Obviously this kind of damage is not sustainable throughout and entire warzone (downtime, re-spawns, transitions, etc), and there are multiple ways that the enemy team could have neutered my burst; that being said, even if I cannot kill a healer there is zero chance that they are healing anyone else unless they are being assisted by a teammate, but isn't that pvp... players actually playing with and against other players?

 

DPS have all of the tools that they need to kill healers, it is simply a matter of utilizing the tools available to you and overcoming the opposing players - healers do not need to be nerfed.

 

Hit the nail on the head right there. Aside from merc healers which I feel are a little behind the other two healers, healing for the most part is fine. DPS are the issue. 90% of warzones you do you'll see 3 or 4 dps that are lucky to break 100k dmg while the rest are 500k+ and higher.

 

Any coordinated team can drop any healer even with guard almost instantly unless they are being cross-healed by another healer at the same time. The reality is even when healers are marked most dps just run around like chickens with their heads cut off and then wonder why no one dies and then run to the forums crying for nerfs. Are op's a tad above the rest.. maybe a bit but imo only against clueless dps that don't know how to time their interupts/stuns etc.

 

A big part of pvp imo is knowing the other classes and their abilities. Play a few to 30ish and you'll have the gist of what their basic abilities are and then you'll know how to better counter any healing class and what to look for. I used to hate op's until I played one up a bit to find out what tools they had at their disposal and now it's much easier to deal with them.

 

I play both sorc and op healers in warzones and have had equal success with both. I'd definately say op healing is a lot more involved then sorc healing but either one against good teams will melt you into the ground unless you have a team behind you as well.