Soundrels/operatives

[Sir_Galapagos]

can we make all of the soupratives trees be healing.........I mean thats all they are good at.

 

Okay but really scoupratives need a huge buff shadows do our job but 12x better. I started playing a shadow in pvp and at lvl 16 i constantly hit 6k shadow strikes and on my operative i rarely hit 4k (Lvl 520 i know there are bolsters but they both received the bolster)

 

there are so many great suggestions of how to buff scoupratives in their respective forums and I bet that the scouprative community was the most responsive and helpful when bioware asked for feedback. However, bioware implemented none of our suggested changes and hit us with a huge nerf (yes cover was great for dps scoundrels) and then slightly increased the damage on a skill no competent scouprative would use. Frankly it was insulting.

 

Now some people claim that scoupratives don't need damage just survivabilty and that would be nice. However shadows are the stealth tank class and scoundrels should be more glass cannon as they do not have any tank abilities. Our dps should be atleast on par with shadows from whom ive seen 11k crits.

 

I did not suggest any buffs in this post as there a a great number of great suggestions in the scoundrel forums. This was just to let the general non-scouprative players understand how much our dps sucks.

 

so uh nerf scoundrels.........er buff (no really we need a buff)

[BuzzingFridge]

Okay but really scoupratives need a huge buff shadows do our job but 12x better. I started playing a shadow in pvp and at lvl 16 i constantly hit 6k shadow strikes and on my operative i rarely hit 4k (Lvl 520 i know there are bolsters but they both received the bolster)

 

I'm all for a buff to the DPS trees, but please...never compare lowbies to 55s again.

[Sir_Galapagos]

I'm all for a buff to the DPS trees, but please...never compare lowbies to 55s again.

 

um a lowbie doing more damage than a 55 is a problem the other way around i can see why you wouldn't compare it but this is like a bicycle going faster than a car.....obvi the car needs a fix.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Sir_Galapagos

[Azzataky]

can we make all of the soupratives trees be healing.........I mean thats all they are good at.

 

Okay but really scoupratives need a huge buff shadows do our job but 12x better. I started playing a shadow in pvp and at lvl 16 i constantly hit 6k shadow strikes and on my operative i rarely hit 4k (Lvl 520 i know there are bolsters but they both received the bolster)

 

there are so many great suggestions of how to buff scoupratives in their respective forums and I bet that the scouprative community was the most responsive and helpful when bioware asked for feedback. However, bioware implemented none of our suggested changes and hit us with a huge nerf (yes cover was great for dps scoundrels) and then slightly increased the damage on a skill no competent scouprative would use. Frankly it was insulting.

 

Now some people claim that scoupratives don't need damage just survivabilty and that would be nice. However shadows are the stealth tank class and scoundrels should be more glass cannon as they do not have any tank abilities. Our dps should be atleast on par with shadows from whom ive seen 11k crits.

 

I did not suggest any buffs in this post as there a a great number of great suggestions in the scoundrel forums. This was just to let the general non-scouprative players understand how much our dps sucks.

 

so uh nerf scoundrels.........er buff (no really we need a buff)

 

I think you can't have 11K crits with scoundrel. When you do fists you can do few in just few sec because of upper hand, same with wounding shots with dirty fighting. You can do 3 in a row no problem.

[Sir_Galapagos]

uh what. could you please explain your self im not really sure what you are going for.

 

if you mean scoundrels dont get 11k crits because they have better sustained damage compared to shadows that simply is not the case. shadows have several abilities to follow up their initial burst and shadows don't have energy problems anywhere near that of scoundrels.

[Azzataky]

uh what. could you please explain your self im not really sure what you are going for.

 

if you mean scoundrels dont get 11k crits because they have better sustained damage compared to shadows that simply is not the case. shadows have several abilities to follow up their initial burst and shadows don't have energy problems anywhere near that of scoundrels.

 

Well point was that this is what bioware might think about it. But on the other hand so far I was killed by assasin or operative sorta with same speed. But I don't have infiltration shadow, only tank spec and only dot spec scoundrel. But so far I don't have full pvp set so I cant tell you how it really is.

 

After I'll get full pvp set and duel many shadows I'll have much better idea about this.

[Sir_Galapagos]

Well point was that this is what bioware might think about it. But on the other hand so far I was killed by assasin or operative sorta with same speed. But I don't have infiltration shadow, only tank spec and only dot spec scoundrel. But so far I don't have full pvp set so I cant tell you how it really is.

 

After I'll get full pvp set and duel many shadows I'll have much better idea about this.

 

okay well we were talking about different scoundrel specs dot spec has really good damage but because bioware though it would be a good idea to force a ranged spec into melee they have a hug QoL problems. Scrapper and infiltration are more comparable because they are supposed to do the same thing but scrapper is considerably worse. Again for suggestions on how to fix our class just go to the scoundrel or operative forums.

 

classes>smuggler or IA>scoundrel or operative

for those who don't know how to get there......like the bioware devs who asked for suggestions and couldn't find their way back to read all the feedback we gave.

[Master-Nala]

I think for the DPS trees to gain damage, they will have to lose some control. The class just has a lot of tools to keep folks locked down. The original complaints which led to nerf after nerf were the "stun-locking operatives" after all.

[Sir_Galapagos]

I think for the DPS trees to gain damage, they will have to lose some control. The class just has a lot of tools to keep folks locked down. The original complaints which led to nerf after nerf were the "stun-locking operatives" after all.

 

that was back when they could knock you down for 3 seconds now its 1.5 they already took a nerf in utility and many more in other areas.

[Racter]

I think for the DPS trees to gain damage, they will have to lose some control. The class just has a lot of tools to keep folks locked down. The original complaints which led to nerf after nerf were the "stun-locking operatives" after all.

 

Yeah because an equal knockdown, equal hard stun and roughly equal 8s mes is so much more control than a sin. Oh wait, they have a longer range snare and a 4s mes every 15s AND a knock back, too. Not too mention a far superior gap closer.

 

Totes right, we have way better control.

 

Owait

[Sir_Galapagos]

Yeah because an equal knockdown, equal hard stun and roughly equal 8s mes is so much more control than a sin. Oh wait, they have a longer range snare and a 4s mes every 15s AND a knock back, too. Not too mention a far superior gap closer.

 

Totes right, we have way better control.

 

Owait

 

thank you

[NotAnyOldName]

They need better survivability, they are by far one of the squishiest classes in the game. Their damage output isn't really that much of an issue in my opinion but as soon as another strong DPS class looks at you are dead.

[Sir_Galapagos]

oh their damge is a problem tell me why can shadows crit for 11k but if we did that it would be op. Its not like our utilty or cc is better we both have the same duration knockdown, stun, and mezz. Shadows have a speed boost, a knockback, and a longer range snare. Yeah we have roll but our dps takes a huge hit when we use it because of its HUGE energy cost unlike shadow speed.

 

Honestly i would prefer greater damage than shadows and have our survivabilty at its current state. after all we aren't the tank stealth class.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Sir_Galapagos

[Kalular]

Scoundrels: Can hit really hard really fast but when being focused you get slammed in about 3 seconds and start screaming at your computer in a fit of rage because every other class has more survivability and has recieved several hard nerfs and isn't any better off than it was in 1.2.

Assains: Can lock you down, every cc they put you in lets them maul you for 11-13k, can have pretty well sustained damage every time their procs are up, but takes some skill to manage your procs correctly (It annoys me every time I find a sin/shadow just maul 3 times and wonder why I'm not dead yet, herpaderp you need a rotation idiot) AND have a 2 second sprint that lets them escape any situation they so choose ALONG with the same thing a scoundrel has: the ability to combat stealth and remove any DoTs on them that might cause them to be unstealthed.

 

I can't be the only one who sees the problem in this.

Back on topic: I support this 100%, Dirty Fighting/Lethality needs even slight boost to range to be effective and I think the base damage should be buffed on most of the Concealment/Scrapper tree abilities. Just my two cents though, extra survivability would be nice though but with EAware I think that's pushing it a little. They've had something against Operatives/Scoundrels since launch from what I understand.

[Sir_Galapagos]

Scoundrels: Can hit really hard really fast but when being focused you get slammed in about 3 seconds and start screaming at your computer in a fit of rage because every other class has more survivability and has recieved several hard nerfs and isn't any better off than it was in 1.2.

Assains: Can lock you down, every cc they put you in lets them maul you for 11-13k, can have pretty well sustained damage every time their procs are up, but takes some skill to manage your procs correctly (It annoys me every time I find a sin/shadow just maul 3 times and wonder why I'm not dead yet, herpaderp you need a rotation idiot) AND have a 2 second sprint that lets them escape any situation they so choose ALONG with the same thing a scoundrel has: the ability to combat stealth and remove any DoTs on them that might cause them to be unstealthed.

 

I can't be the only one who sees the problem in this.

Back on topic: I support this 100%, Dirty Fighting/Lethality needs even slight boost to range to be effective and I think the base damage should be buffed on most of the Concealment/Scrapper tree abilities. Just my two cents though, extra survivability would be nice though but with EAware I think that's pushing it a little. They've had something against Operatives/Scoundrels since launch from what I understand.

 

yeah i posted something in the suggestions thread about listening to all ideas we gave on how to fix our class but i doubt they will listen. who knows next we cant stealth in wz at all and they will still balance our dps with shoot first in mind.

[Zunayson]

Yeah because an equal knockdown, equal hard stun and roughly equal 8s mes is so much more control than a sin. Oh wait, they have a longer range snare and a 4s mes every 15s AND a knock back, too. Not too mention a far superior gap closer.

 

Totes right, we have way better control.

 

Owait

 

The CC of both are rather incomparable

 

Comparison:

• 2 seconds vs 1.5 seconds knockdown
  
• 10m range 1 min / 50 sec stun vs 4m range 45 sec / 30 sec stun
  
• 10m range sap rather identical
  
• 30m range 2 sec cast 1 min CD 8 sec mezz vs 10m range instant 1 min CD 8 sec 5m 5 target aoe mezz
  
• 15m (set bonus) range 6 sec CD 12 sec duration 50% slow (talented) 10m range 12 sec CD 12 sec Duration 50% slow
  
• 70% slow 3 sec duration attatched to the knockback vs zip
  
• 20 sec 120 degree cone aoe knockback vs zip
  
• (as deception) 4m range 4 sec mezz (MELEE!) 15 sec CD vs nothing
  

 

As far as gap closers,

• Ops have the 50% speed after vanish for 6 seconds,
  
• The 50% movement speed for 6 seconds with sneak, refreshed with vanish,
  
• 2 seconds of 50% movement speed bonus every 6 seconds on a melee move
  
• Spammable 21 energy cost 12m range (6 when slowed) instant roll with 30% defense chance
  

As opposed to sins, with

• 15 sec CD 2 sec duration 2.5 times normal movement speed
  
• Phase walk? 45 sec CD teleport with 1.5 sec cast time set up and 60m range.
  

 

Between the two, I'd still take a sin any day because of the insane crit chance

[Sir_Galapagos]

The CC of both are rather incomparable

 

Comparison:

• 2 seconds vs 1.5 seconds knockdown
  
• 10m range 1 min / 50 sec stun vs 4m range 45 sec / 30 sec stun
  
• 10m range sap rather identical
  
• 30m range 2 sec cast 1 min CD 8 sec mezz vs 10m range instant 1 min CD 8 sec 5m 5 target aoe mezz
  
• 15m (set bonus) range 6 sec CD 12 sec duration 50% slow (talented) 10m range 12 sec CD 12 sec Duration 50% slow
  
• 70% slow 3 sec duration attatched to the knockback vs zip
  
• 20 sec 120 degree cone aoe knockback vs zip
  
• (as deception) 4m range 4 sec mezz (MELEE!) 15 sec CD vs nothing
  

 

As far as gap closers,

• Ops have the 50% speed after vanish for 6 seconds,
  
• The 50% movement speed for 6 seconds with sneak, refreshed with vanish,
  
• 2 seconds of 50% movement speed bonus every 6 seconds on a melee move
  
• Spammable 21 energy cost 12m range (6 when slowed) instant roll with 30% defense chance
  

As opposed to sins, with

• 15 sec CD 2 sec duration 2.5 times normal movement speed
  
• Phase walk? 45 sec CD teleport with 1.5 sec cast time set up and 60m range.
  

 

Between the two, I'd still take a sin any day because of the insane crit chance

 

roll isnt spamable lol..........energy the 50% speed after vanish inst a gap closer in the hands of a smart operative that saves it for when you really need it (escape) the shadow speed covers easily more disatance than three rolls in a short time with less resources. And you showed that sins have better utility so i hope thats what u meant to do i got mixed signals.

[BuzzingFridge]

Their main problems are sustained damage and vulnerability in a long fight. Most players try to play Scrapper/Concealment in the same way they would play other DPS classes; that is, get right into the thick of the battle and attack until either they, or their enemy, are dead. Because of the above problems, you can't really be effective with this method. The opening burst is great, but after that things really slow down and I constantly find myself running low on Energy if I'm in a long fight. Also, their lack of defensive CDs and medium armour make them a target for enemy DPS (especially ranged classes).

 

The best way to play the class at the moment is to focus on healers or objectives. Don't bother with trying to DPS everything; you'll just end spending more time in the spawn zone than on the field. For all their shortcomings, Concealment/Scrappers still have amazing burst that can put healers under a lot of pressure and force them to blow defensive CDs to survive. Hang at the fringe of the battle and focus on the healers. If you start getting focused yourself, roll away, heal and start again.

 

In Voidstar and Huttball, Concealment/Scrappers make excellent door planters and goal scorers. In Civil War and Novare they are good at defending nodes because their stun, mezz, root and roll (and re-stealth) give them a lot of tools to stop enemies from capping until reinforcements arrive. They can also use these to interrupt caps long enough to give their own team the tick at the start of the game. In Hypergate they can advantage of poor defending to stealth-cap the enemy node.

 

I've been playing the spec in the style above and it's not too bad. Obviously there are major issues with the class, but it is still playable; you just need to readjust your expectations.

Edited December 20, 2013 by BuzzingFridge

[Sir_Galapagos]

Thats pretty much how i play we cant do damage so have to rely on objects but shadows can do both. I never said the class was unplayable, i do it all the time.You said the class has obvious problems and we should just change our mindset. Well we shouldnt just "change our mindset" the "obvious problems" need to be addressed.

 

and sure we have tools to disrupt the enemy but the shadow has the same plus a knockback a speed boost and a longer range root. Compare the classes in utility we lose. compare the classes in damage we lose.

 

Its not a matter of how you play, although that SHOULD be a factor. There is a certain threshold where no matter player skill one class always wins we are at that point if you take a same gear scoundrel dps vs a pt or marauder. Sure we can play the objective game and let other class to the deeps but why should they get to do objectives and damage. Our class has obvious problems for which many great ideas were suggested but bioware implement exactly none.

 

and no scrappers have mediocre burst at best...........now shadows that called amazing burst 11k crits. You cant call 6k crits amazing when 11k crits happen on a regular basis auto crits at that.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Sir_Galapagos

[BuzzingFridge]

I'm not in disagreement with you; just offering some advice for players who are ready to drop their Operative/Scoundrel altogether. It can still be useful in regular Warzones if they change their playstyle.

 

I'm not going to get into the "6K vs 11K" crit argument. I will say that my Concealment Operative's Hidden Strike crits at much more than 6K, so I'm not sure where you're pulling that figure from.

[Cordorian]

I'm not in disagreement with you; just offering some advice for players who are ready to drop their Operative/Scoundrel altogether. It can still be useful in regular Warzones if they change their playstyle.

 

I'm not going to get into the "6K vs 11K" crit argument. I will say that my Concealment Operative's Hidden Strike crits at much more than 6K, so I'm not sure where you're pulling that figure from.

 

i think most people playing concealment adjust the intended playstyle after a while. That doesn't change the fact that a deception assassin is superior in this role in almost every aspect -> they played ranked 8v8, we could just watch.

 

I totally you can be the king of a regular wzs cracking the 1mio damage most solo kills and turning the faith around for you team almost single handedly. I have done that, others have done that, but it is no indication that the class and spec is alright.

While the damage is a bit hampered, it is not the main problem. It is that you literally squisher than sage outside of the heals tree. Yes class has means to make up for this but these only work in a 1v1 scenario (where we are clearly second bested by assassins anyway), yet this game is based around team fights, and there those means don't really work. Also everybody with half brain knows to kill the dps operative first because :

1) they are a nuissance

2)they are the easiest to kill -> you can be killed by taunted dps, through guard while getting spam healed pretty much.

so once no situation for being the ninja of the day arises and you have to be in the group fight, you are no matter how well you play the spec a liability for your group.

Arenas highlight this even more, especially if the is a moderate amount of coordination on the other teams side. Had a ranked arena on my sentinel against team with one of the best concealment operatives on the server. He opened up on the healer, tank guardian leaps to the healer, concealment get stun, concealment gets globaled. And he really is major nuissance in normal wzs, but there is still nothing that he could do in this setting.

It is melee class without melee CDs and that is the thing more people playing or having played that spec for a while complain about.

 

Damage wise concealment is actually ok in sustained and if you crit you can have a good burst... yet this is a very big if. What happens quite a lot of times is that you try to burst down a target as quickly as possible so, throwing out all the hard hitters...nothing crits the target still has like 30-40% health but you are energy drained out of CD and you realize... damn already dead. Most burst specs have an auto crit or semi auto crit on one of their hard hitters. This enables them to deliver burst in way more reliable fashion than concealment can. I see the issue of stunlocking people to death for sure, it takes no skill and is very frustrating on the receiving side, so i can understand why the damage was nerfed. Yet a burst spec that only really bursts once in the blue moon is next to useless in pvp.

Why do you see way more rage maras than carnage maras (well and of cause anni maras) in pvp. Carnage actually has the higher burst, but it is proc based so way less reliable than lolsmash (and easier to shut down). This roughly is also the reason why concealment pvp wise is second bested by deception (sorry, assassin i know it is not an autocrit, it not an aoe and it is not totally ridiculous, but still you have way more reliable burst), plus the better CDs assassins have.

 

Long story short, you can adjust to the playstyle, it can be fun (in fact it is), but an assassin would offer you almost the same, just better. When the wz doesn't allow you to play your natural role, you are most of the time more of an liablity for your team. In arenas you always are a liability. Yet with only the mythical 30 concealments operatives left in the world (me not included anymore) i doubt the class would ever get the little bit of love it deserves-> which would also decrease the incentive to go heals

[Kalular]

I've noticed a couple of things.

Against players that know what they are doing and know how to counter the Concealment/Scrapper advanced class, dirty fighting seems to be the best choice for 1v1s. The set up time may be a bit too long, but you can easily take them down to 33% health in 3 seconds then finish them off with little to no trouble.

I'm not sure if this was a design error, but dirty fighting is better 1v1 now? What next? Will it get nerfed too?

I tested this out on some of my guildies and even they saw a difference when I went dirty fighting/lethality to 1v1 them. Ended up at 66% health instead of 33%. Concealment/Scrapper isn't even worth playing right now, I mean, seriously.

Concealment/Scrapper definetly needs a buff, it used to be so much better, what happened?

PS: I'm not even fully geared, but I have obroan implants/relics/earpiece/mods on my belt/bracer and the rest is conq augmented (fully augmented) and Scrapper/Concealment just seems to be so bad right now.

It's pretty sad though, when you run across that one assassin or shadow that runs into walls in the 55 brackett and you come out, get them down to 27%, they somehow escape without using their combat stealth then end up come back, and biting you in the butt only for them to be taken down by your teammates. <-- happened to me tonight.

Another thing, I might add, is the fact that both dps specs pale in comparison in 1v1s to healer scoundrel.

Overall utility would be nice in warzones though, buff the opening stun on shoot first to the same level it is on a Assassin's spike then I guess some of us would stop complaining...

But 70% snare after they get up from Shoot First will never be an option, this is EAware we're talking about, any buffs they make to us are going to make us FOTM if it's too good or going to land us right back where we started, right here.

It's funny because people have always asked for a buff and look what happened, no balance what-so-ever in pvp.

[Cordorian]

Concealment/Scrapper definetly needs a buff, it used to be so much better, what happened?

 

Crit nerf with 2.0... that is pretty much what happened. Lethality is a DoT spec, so not that crit reliant, but if in concealment no of your hard hitters crits you can in fact just wait and die, and so taking down the soft cap for crit chance in 2.0 really hit burst specs without autocrits or very high talent buffed crit chances

[Chemic_al]

Thing is, when compared to sins, dps operatives can heal to full. The "off healing" which any dps sorc, merc or operative knows drains you of resources fast, is slow, and will most likely never get off, but Bioware factor this into the equation when class balancing, even though it really shouldn't be. There is no penalty for a sin, taunting for instance. I'm now firmly in the opinion taunting needs to be something only tanks can spec into to get the most out of it, because of the somewhat asinine decision Bioware have made re class balance.

[Cordorian]

Thing is, when compared to sins, dps operatives can heal to full. The "off healing" which any dps sorc, merc or operative knows drains you of resources fast, is slow, and will most likely never get off, but Bioware factor this into the equation when class balancing, even though it really shouldn't be. There is no penalty for a sin, taunting for instance. I'm now firmly in the opinion taunting needs to be something only tanks can spec into to get the most out of it, because of the somewhat asinine decision Bioware have made re class balance.

 

It is not like assassin are that ridiculously OP that they need a nerf... Scoundrel/Operatives just need to be brought on par with other DPS classes and that mostly in terms of survivability.

Btw despite having arguable the strong pvp healing tree in game, operatives are the worst off-healers. At a baseline heals are very expensive and all of them have cast time (op healers hardly use them in pvp). Underworld medicine costs 1/4 of your resources is a 2.5 s cast and only heals for moderate amount. Since this class is melee, you have to get out of the skirmish first to have chance to cast it at all, so scamper ftw, lets say you need two, so brilliant you now are energy drained....yes we can definitely h2f like pros. kolto infusion costs less energy but consume TA/UH, which in both dps spec you mostly get from either stimboost or shiv. you dont want to waste stim boost for that normally, and when you need it you dont really wanna go full melee to get a shiv. And Diagnostic scan.... you can definitely h2f with that one:P

Well the 30% chance to get a free heal from roll in lethality, we can safely ignore. Nobody will go proc hunting just get some health back when it means you are out of energy after that.

 

See sorcs got angry at the devs reply, but as dps they have by far the better self and off healing abilities, while basically being a ranged class. Scoundrel/Operatives are melee in both dps spec and have not a single usable self heal in a combat like situation. we simply cant h2f... outside a 1v1, but 1v1 is not what pvp is mostly about.