How are Flashfires/Stings not Overwhelmingly OP?

[Kuciwalker]

I think people need to get past the notion that 41% evasion equates to 41% chance to not be hit.

 

It does mean that, because this game is much bigger on accuracy penalties than bonuses.

[Zoom_VI]

Thing about cluster missiles is that with their quick lockon and short cooldown it's impossible to evade them all. If you have a flashfire on your tail you're going to eat cluster missiles until you die.

 

If you can't regenerate the measly 600 damage to your shields before the next one comes I don't know what to tell you. Clusters are a psychological weapon, I will point out that one hit from Quads does identical damage to a clusters hit.

 

Getting hit with clusters is like this:

 

Oh sh*t a lock! I can't see it! where is it coming from! Oh crap incoming! *thud*

Wait that's it? All those flashy red light and screaming alarms and it didn't even take half my shield arc????

Edited December 19, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[Zoom_VI]

It does mean that, because this game is much bigger on accuracy penalties than bonuses.

 

Nope, evasion just takes the natural penalty per degree of center and exacerbates it further. If you have your target nearly dead center evasion is rendered completely moot. As any multiplier of 0 penalty is 0

[Zoom_VI]

Problem with that statement is they don't give up any mobility, they can elect to with different component choices and crew members, but the default ship is the same as the scout with heavier weaponry and an unupgradeable sensor package.

 

Flashfires don't have a sensor package. And if they take components for equal engine as a Novadrive they don't have better firepower b/c they won't have overcharge.

[Zoom_VI]

Says the devs:

 

On their post about strikers they state that they are meant to be capable of attacking both starfighters and "stationary objectives such as satellite defense turrets" http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-strike-fighter-class-starfighter

 

By comparison they describe the scouts as hit and run specialists, rush in cause chaos among defenders (maybe get a few gloryhogs to chase them leaving an objective undefended) etc. With the flashfire in question it is described as being specifically designed for ship-to-ship combat. http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-scout-class-starfighter

 

So clearly in the devs own words strikers, not scouts, are meant to have the capability to attack turrets. Which indicates that the theory behind the scout and striker design is this:

scouts are meant to be dogfighters/space superiority that cost of not having multirole starfighter capabilities; strikers are meant to be multirole ships that are equally capable of dogfighting and attacking "ground" targets at the cost of not being able to excel in either role.

^^this, I have been saying this all along, but people are still stuck on the notion that Flashfires are listed as a "scout" and strike fighters have "fighter" in their name.

 

90% of complains would be solved if people stop thinking of Strikes as superiority fighters, because they clearly are not.

[Mallorik]

If you fly every ship like a scout, every ship but the scout will suck.

 

So yes, L2P.

 

Love L2P posts from noobs, So how do you play a strike fighter mr top gun? hang back and play missile jockey with the rest of the people who cant fly? shooting and locking on from max range? as soon as you do that to my flashfire youll have about 15 seconds till you respawn,

 

My flashfire on the other hand will live until the games over and finish with 15 kills even though it ran out of cluster missiles half way through the match, as long as the strike pilots even more hapless cousin the gunship pilot doesn't sneak up and get a one shot kill on one of his respawn suicide runs.

[Yorumi]

If you can't regenerate the measly 600 damage to your shields before the next one comes I don't know what to tell you. Clusters are a psychological weapon, I will point out that one hit from Quads does identical damage to a clusters hit.

 

I don't think you've ever actually faced someone with upgraded cluster missiles in combat. The best regen delay a pike can get is 3 seconds, best a starguard can get I'm pretty sure is 1.5 seconds. Never mind the shield piercing for this discussion. With just the tier 3 upgrade for 5% more damage it would take a pike 8 seconds to regen that damage assuming no other damage is taken at all during that time, a starguard would be 6 seconds. With the dot(i'll assume it doesn't affect regen delay) it becomes 9 seconds for the pike, and with double volley it's 10 seconds.

 

If someone can aquire a cluster lock every 8 seconds if they're upgraded they'll do net positive damage over regen, assuming they land absolutely no other hits. Of course I'm also ignoring the shield piercing which hits something that doesn't naturally regen. Furthermore 1 hit from quads is not equal to a cluster hit. A quad at close range has a DPS of 848, and a rate of fire of 150 rpm. That means one hit is actually 339 damage, at mid range it's 314, and at long range it's 255. Of course that's not counting upgrades on the quad but you are not going to more than double the damage per hit with any upgrades.

 

edit: I'd also like to point out that without any upgrades the dps on cluster missiles is actually higher than concussion. Damage from concussion is 1065, 3 seconds lock on, 5.5 reload. That gives them a dps of 133, clusters have a 1.5 sec lock, 2.8 reload, that gives a dps of 151.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Yorumi

[Zoom_VI]

I don't think you've ever actually faced someone with upgraded cluster missiles in combat. The best regen delay a pike can get is 3 seconds, best a starguard can get I'm pretty sure is 1.5 seconds. Never mind the shield piercing for this discussion. With just the tier 3 upgrade for 5% more damage it would take a pike 8 seconds to regen that damage assuming no other damage is taken at all during that time, a starguard would be 6 seconds. With the dot(i'll assume it doesn't affect regen delay) it becomes 9 seconds for the pike, and with double volley it's 10 seconds.

 

If someone can aquire a cluster lock every 8 seconds if they're upgraded they'll do net positive damage over regen, assuming they land absolutely no other hits. Of course I'm also ignoring the shield piercing which hits something that doesn't naturally regen. Furthermore 1 hit from quads is not equal to a cluster hit. A quad at close range has a DPS of 848, and a rate of fire of 150 rpm. That means one hit is actually 339 damage, at mid range it's 314, and at long range it's 255. Of course that's not counting upgrades on the quad but you are not going to more than double the damage per hit with any upgrades.

 

I have actually gotten into fights with multiple cluster equipped opponents, clusters are the least of my issues. Also a quad is 958 dps not counting the vs hull or vs shield top tier increase. Also close range doesn't count for this argument because you ain't gonna get a clusters lock at close range. A single quad hit is ~550 damage assuming it doesn't crit which is ~750 damage. That still does not account for the 18% boost to either hull or shield damage available at top tier.

 

trust me I have been hit by both quads and clusters enough to know that I would rather take the clusters hit than the quads.

 

For my argument I assumed quick charge with 60% regen during damage as that is what the vast majority of strikes seem to be running along with my own flashfire. Also I have never had a situation where I can get successful cluster missile hits on cooldown. My target would have to be practically zero out on engine power. And if he was like that I would just light him up with quads.

[Svarthrafn]

Love L2P posts from noobs, So how do you play a strike fighter mr top gun? hang back and play missile jockey with the rest of the people who cant fly? shooting and locking on from max range? as soon as you do that to my flashfire youll have about 15 seconds till you respawn,

 

My flashfire on the other hand will live until the games over and finish with 15 kills even though it ran out of cluster missiles half way through the match, as long as the strike pilots even more hapless cousin the gunship pilot doesn't sneak up and get a one shot kill on one of his respawn suicide runs.

 

As a matter of fact that is exactly what I do. I lock with protons from 11k out and laugh while you little 'elites' blow your maneuvers in a panic because you were so focused chasing kills and have no idea where it's coming from. Then I just lock another one and watch it hit.

 

Hopefully you change targets to me and joust. Because there you're so dependant on distortion field that you can only hit while flying in a straight line towards me, and I just corkscrew to *manually* evade your fire. My ship can take the shots you do manage to land, and cluster missiles are laughable. Pop a maneuver after you pass, and it only takes a few shots to hit from heavies to drop your shields and finish your hull since you so predictibly used your distortion field already.

 

I actually fly scouts *much* more than strikes, but I absolutely *love* popping supposed hotshots in their scouts. You know, the guys who *think* they're a great pilot, but are only really good at one part of the game (flying scouts).

 

The best pilots in the game aren't the guys in scouts. They are the guys who can fly every ship well, and don't tie themselves to a single playstyle in every hull.

 

Hey, maybe you're one of those better pilots. Maybe the things I said won't apply to you. I'm sure you are very good, but chances are, you aren't as good as you *think* you are. As for me, I'm terrible at this game, and as far as piloting skill goes, probably in the lower 50 percentile. But I pop scouts easy enough, and I find it much easier to do in the strike.

[Kuciwalker]

Nope, evasion just takes the natural penalty per degree of center and exacerbates it further. If you have your target nearly dead center evasion is rendered completely moot. As any multiplier of 0 penalty is 0

 

Do you have a source for this?

[Gavin_Kelvar]

^^this, I have been saying this all along, but people are still stuck on the notion that Flashfires are listed as a "scout" and strike fighters have "fighter" in their name.

 

90% of complains would be solved if people stop thinking of Strikes as superiority fighters, because they clearly are not.

 

thank you.

 

I just take issue that they seem to be able to cross the boundary into multirole starfighter by using evasion to become immune to turret fire. Witness why some scout pilots have claimed that the role of scouts is to attack starfighters and turrets with the implication that they're equally proficient in destroying both target types (and being proficient in attacking both target types is the definition of a multirole, not space superiority fighter). Obviously if you're space superiority you shouldn't have multirole starfighter capability as well as that's what was sacrificed in order to excel as a dogfighter (just like how strikers sacrificed some dogfighting abilities to have the capability to destroy targets such as turrets). Not of course that scouts should only be able to shoot spitballs at turrets and completely lack lack the offensive capability to destroy a turret just that they lack the blend of offense and defense necessary for this to be viable under normal circumstances; similar to how a healer isn't able to put out damage numbers that rival a DPS spec even though they do have effective offensive abilities.

 

If there's a balance problem I'd say it's there because it seems like things may be unbalanced if scout pilots fly (and think) like they're in a multirole starfighter not space superiority.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Gavin_Kelvar

[old_benn]

thank you.

 

I just take issue that they seem to be able to cross the boundary into multirole starfighter by using evasion to become immune to turret fire. Witness why some scout pilots have claimed that the role of scouts is to attack starfighters and turrets with the implication that they're equally proficient in destroying both target types (and being proficient in attacking both target types is the definition of a multirole, not space superiority fighter). Obviously if you're space superiority you shouldn't have multirole starfighter capability as well as that's what was sacrificed in order to excel as a dogfighter (just like how strikers sacrificed some dogfighting abilities to have the capability to destroy targets such as turrets). Not of course that scouts should only be able to shoot spitballs at turrets and completely lack lack the offensive capability to destroy a turret just that they lack the blend of offense and defense necessary for this to be viable under normal circumstances; similar to how a healer isn't able to put out damage numbers that rival a DPS spec even though they do have effective offensive abilities.

 

If there's a balance problem I'd say it's there because it seems like things may be unbalanced if scout pilots fly (and think) like they're in a multirole starfighter not space superiority.

 

I apologize in advance if I'm misinterpreting the point you're trying to make (I haven't read all 19 pages of this thread). But I'm going to assume you're still referring to the title of the thread, and that you're making the point that Flash/Stings are imbalanced because they can excel at killing turrets and dogfighting (with your emphasis being on killing turrets).

 

I fly a Nova, and I can kill all 3 turrets in one pass. I use Light Laser and unload with Rockets, and pop my Quick Recharge Shield during the run. The ability to kill turrets is not limited to the Flash. Novas can do it too. Granted, if there are (skilled) defenders there, it makes it more problematic.

 

My point is that if the ability to kill turrets quickly makes the Flash OP, then Novas are OP too.

 

I will concede, however, that based on fluff text, it would seem to me that Strikes should be obviously better at turret killing than scouts. I have not found this to be the case. So rather than saying all scouts are OP, I'd suggest that Strikes need some sort of a buff to be able to kill turrets quicker.

[DarthVindictus]

Flashfires/stings being OP has nothing to do with turrets at all, and everthing to do with if you see 5-6 people using flashfires you know your team lost, instantly.

[RiVaN_]

if you see 5-6 people using flashfires you know your team lost, instantly.

 

I hope you and I are not on the same server...

 

I can tell you that if I am in a match where most of my enemy is flying scout right out of the gate I know I'm gonna have a good time.

Why you ask?

Because I have played GSF enough to realize that a good Gunner or Striker with a buddy covering his back can make mince-meat out of those scouts.

My Main ship is a Scout (a FlashFire that I like to call LullaBell) but I'll break out Bertha (my gunship, which only has teir 3 Slug rail gun maxed magazine and aromr) and punch some holes in those Imp Scout ships for the match.

 

I've said this a couple times a couple way's but I think that I'll be more blunt this time.

 

You are probably not very skilled at the ship you are trying to pilot, and your enemies have figured that out.

So when they see you in the match they are all ganging up on you for the easy kills.

 

That happened to me on the PTS, Dulfy and her crew farmed my stubborn and persistent butt for about 2 hours the first night of testing. I learned from my mistakes, realized my skill was sub par, re-evaluated my play style and the ships available and started working on getting better.

Complaining that the FlashFire and Sting are overpowered isn't going to make you a better pilot.

Take the advice of an old soldier, re-assess your skills and learn from your mistakes. It will make you a better player.

[DarthVindictus]

I hope you and I are not on the same server...

 

I can tell you that if I am in a match where most of my enemy is flying scout right out of the gate I know I'm gonna have a good time.

Why you ask?

Because I have played GSF enough to realize that a good Gunner or Striker with a buddy covering his back can make mince-meat out of those scouts.

My Main ship is a Scout (a FlashFire that I like to call LullaBell) but I'll break out Bertha (my gunship, which only has teir 3 Slug rail gun maxed magazine and aromr) and punch some holes in those Imp Scout ships for the match.

 

I've said this a couple times a couple way's but I think that I'll be more blunt this time.

 

You are probably not very skilled at the ship you are trying to pilot, and your enemies have figured that out.

So when they see you in the match they are all ganging up on you for the easy kills.

 

That happened to me on the PTS, Dulfy and her crew farmed my stubborn and persistent butt for about 2 hours the first night of testing. I learned from my mistakes, realized my skill was sub par, re-evaluated my play style and the ships available and started working on getting better.

Complaining that the FlashFire and Sting are overpowered isn't going to make you a better pilot.

Take the advice of an old soldier, re-assess your skills and learn from your mistakes. It will make you a better player.

 

Nice ad hominems.

 

No, I usually finish matches with 0 deaths, no more than 2 deaths in a match. But if there's a match with that many flashfires, I know that match is going to be a bad one where I spend most of my time running away and hearing lock on sounds. 5-6 flashfires means they can get from node to node quickly (meaning they can capture faster), the can harass and kill anyone in a dogfight, and you'll only get 1 shot before you have 2-3 flashfires on your tail and your only real option is to boost and barrel roll as fast as you can back to your spawn point.

[Zoom_VI]

Nice ad hominems.

 

No, I usually finish matches with 0 deaths, no more than 2 deaths in a match. But if there's a match with that many flashfires, I know that match is going to be a bad one where I spend most of my time running away and hearing lock on sounds. 5-6 flashfires means they can get from node to node quickly (meaning they can capture faster), the can harass and kill anyone in a dogfight, and you'll only get 1 shot before you have 2-3 flashfires on your tail and your only real option is to boost and barrel roll as fast as you can back to your spawn point.

 

Lock sounds? A gunship should be more worried about rocket pods. But hey at least my psychological attack missiles are working.

 

Anyway, I hear there this thing called Ion rail which hardcounters everything except other gunships.

[Zoom_VI]

Flashfires/stings being OP has nothing to do with turrets at all, and everthing to do with if you see 5-6 people using flashfires you know your team lost, instantly.

 

5-6? When I see 3-4 ion gunships I know the match is lost.

[DarthVindictus]

5-6? When I see 3-4 ion gunships I know the match is lost.

 

 

Not me, I see 3-4 sitting ducks. Other gunships are the easiest to snipe, because they stay still and tunnelvisioned so much.

 

Rocket pods don't concern me as much as clusters, as rocket pods are a direct fire weapon, subject to evasion and also hard to hit with against eratic flyers. Cluster missiles have a nice wide arc, longer range, and can lock on.

[reclipsed]

Not me, I see 3-4 sitting ducks. Other gunships are the easiest to snipe, because they stay still and tunnelvisioned so much.

 

Rocket pods don't concern me as much as clusters, as rocket pods are a direct fire weapon, subject to evasion and also hard to hit with against eratic flyers. Cluster missiles have a nice wide arc, longer range, and can lock on.

 

Your server/faction must have bad gunship pilots, or you're very lucky in your queues. I've been ion blasted till my bum hurts. I've seen a rise in them the last few days, a coincidence of that thread explaining how to do it?

 

 

edit: I didn't put 2 and 2 together when you said "sniping other snipers". reading fail on my part.

Edited December 20, 2013 by reclipsed

[Svarthrafn]

Your server/faction must have bad gunship pilots, or you're very lucky in your queues. I've been ion blasted till my bum hurts. I've seen a rise in them the last few days, a coincidence of that thread explaining how to do it?

 

I've noticed an increase in the past few days as well. I am always flipping through targets looking for gunships though, so usually I can get up on them, and laugh when they hit me with the ion since I am already in range and burning them down.

 

Multiple gunships covering one another though....sucks.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

I apologize in advance if I'm misinterpreting the point you're trying to make (I haven't read all 19 pages of this thread). But I'm going to assume you're still referring to the title of the thread, and that you're making the point that Flash/Stings are imbalanced because they can excel at killing turrets and dogfighting (with your emphasis being on killing turrets).

 

I fly a Nova, and I can kill all 3 turrets in one pass. I use Light Laser and unload with Rockets, and pop my Quick Recharge Shield during the run. The ability to kill turrets is not limited to the Flash. Novas can do it too. Granted, if there are (skilled) defenders there, it makes it more problematic.

 

My point is that if the ability to kill turrets quickly makes the Flash OP, then Novas are OP too.

 

I will concede, however, that based on fluff text, it would seem to me that Strikes should be obviously better at turret killing than scouts. I have not found this to be the case. So rather than saying all scouts are OP, I'd suggest that Strikes need some sort of a buff to be able to kill turrets quicker.

 

You're correct in my emphasis however I would hesitate to say OP (for me that's more extreme such as gunships 1 shotting or uncharged ion blasts) and would lean more towards just inbalanced (degrees of OPness I suppose so whatever). Namely because, depending on the model, they're intended to be long range scouts providing early warning (the Nova with it's options that emphasize sensors/scouting) or space superiority (the flashfire) yet all evidence suggests that they're equally capable of taking out turrets unassisted (aka performing multirole starfighter jobs on top of the jobs they were designed to do).

 

It'd be roughly like having a healer spec that can do damage rivaling a dps spec, while no one would argue that healers should do spitball damage they also shouldn't have the capability to function outside of their intended role to the degree that they can perform another specs role. I have very serious doubts that people would say that such a thing would be balanced.

 

Since scouts, in theory, sacrificed multirole capability (ie being able to dogfight and destroy turrets with equal proficiency) to either enhance their scouting role (Nova) or excel as dogfighters (Flashfire) there is an inbalance when they are hands down the best in these roles while remaining proficient in destroying turrets.

 

Thank you though for noting that strikers aren't better than scouts at turret busting (I hope my little rant didn't come across as personal as that isn't my intent). Now from my own experience flying strikers I'd say strikers are balanced just fine offensively and defensively in terms of fulfilling their role as GSF's multirole starfighter so buffing them offensively to kill turrets even faster that scouts isn't the solution (otherwise you'll render turrets completely useless and/or create an inbalance in the opposite direction where the multirole starfighter in the game is a better space superiority fighter than the dedicated space superiority fighter). Rather the solution is to nerf scout defensive capabilities so surviving an attack on turrets on their own under normal circumstances isn't possible (using team work with strikers to perform an A-Wing Slash or scout en masse banzai charges should still work). The objective hear being emphasizing a scout's space superiority role and that this power came at the price of not being able to take down turrets.

 

EDIT: I should add the basis for my opinion on the striker's offensive capabilities to explain why I think they are balanced so far as performing their role is concerned. I've recently been giving heavy blasters a go again on my Star Guard and I've found them to be, for my play style anyway, as good and possibly better than ions. Upgraded heavies get a 100% armor penetration which (in theory) should allow them to bipass turret armor so they can wipe them out very quickly (I haven't reached that unlock yet so we'll see how it works in practice). So on paper it looks like they could have the potential to be the best turret busting blasters in the game (whether they are I'll have to see with further testing). Torps also look on paper like they're quite capable of turret busting but I don't use them so I can't say how it works out in practice.

 

So to recap I think for both the Pike and Star Guard they already have more than enough potential to be turret busters with the right set up and buffing them further offensively could make them OP. The problem is that flashfires are so good at turret busting to the point that you don't need strikers on your team to perform the turret busting role. I have my doubts that so long as flashfires remain the best at dogfighting while also being perfectly capable of turret busting any striker buffs would result in a switch to strikers to take advantage of their ability to turret bust even faster unless that offensive buff translates into OP levels of being able to 2-3 shot scouts or something (in which case we'd still lack balance just in a different direction).

 

Flashfires/stings being OP has nothing to do with turrets at all, and everthing to do with if you see 5-6 people using flashfires you know your team lost, instantly.

 

5-6 flashfires means they can get from node to node quickly (meaning they can capture faster), the can harass and kill anyone in a dogfight, and you'll only get 1 shot before you have 2-3 flashfires on your tail and your only real option is to boost and barrel roll as fast as you can back to your spawn point.

 

Respectfully I disagree. Scouts are able to capture faster because they can take down turrets on their own and don't need to 1) banzai charge en masse to do so or 2) wait for the slower strikers and gunships to catch up to destroy the turrets. You've basically pointed out that they are top guns in the space superiority role (as they should be since that is their role) while being just as capable of switching to turret destruction when need arises.

 

Now if their defensive abilities were nerfed so they'd still maintain the offensive power to be the aces of space superiority but would lack the defensive ability to survive attack runs on turrets on their own you wouldn't have a problem. This is objective based game play (so far) so those 5-6 flashfires could become a liability, not an asset, if the team lacked enough strikers to take out turrets to allow them to be captured (assuming your team is good enough to hold the majority of the sats).

 

On a related note if suddenly they were only good as space superiority you might find your flashfire woes decreased because they wouldn't be able to overlap with the role of the striker and this lack of versatility would be less appealing as the majority ship type for a match.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Gavin_Kelvar

[Svarthrafn]

@Gavin:

 

What about beefing up the damage that the turrets do, along with a huge accuracy boost to negate distortion field. A slight range boost might be needed so they couldn't just sit out of range.

 

Meanwhile let Strikes use their superior range to bring down turrets at a distance, or go in and "tank" for an A-wing slash.

 

I've solo-capped a node in my scout far too many times, and I agree, this is wrong.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Svarthrafn

[archifikoss]

Pfff, whatever, I'll still take 'em out and solo cap nodes. Until actual Pub pilots come onto the scene and beat me up

[Gavin_Kelvar]

@Gavin:

 

What about beefing up the damage that the turrets do, along with a huge accuracy boost to negate distortion field. A slight range boost might be needed so they couldn't just sit out of range.

 

Meanwhile let Strikes use their superior range to bring down turrets at a distance, or go in and "tank" for an A-wing slash.

 

I've solo-capped a node in my scout far too many times, and I agree, this is wrong.

 

I would consider that a viable option.

 

I'm a little fuzzy on what evasion does though as in my experience with distortion field it results in complete invulnerability to blasterfire even when flying in a straight line (so barring my enemy having the worst aim in history they shouldn't be having any tracking penalty and I'm not sure turrets even have tracking penalties yet they still invariably miss in that situation). So I'd be inclined to say that evasion should be looked at first to make sure there isn't some sort of problem with evasion doing more than intended.

 

But yes in theory I would say your proposal of buffing turrets is completely reasonable option to explore.

[Kuciwalker]

In my experience in gunships distortion field means I have a solid 3-6 seconds to continue sniping - completely motionless - without any worries about that guy blasting away at me.