$100 in a couple clicks. SCARY.

[TUXs]

It's still not gambling, you the purchaser aren't risking anything. If there was the possibility that you would get nothing at all from the packs, then I would concede that there is real risk to gain potential. But, the fact remains that you will get something in return for purchase. I am reminded of a Rolling Stones song, 'You can't always get what you want.'

But I am "risking" something. I'm exchanging REAL money for CC's, the "currency" of this business. I must use these CC's to buy chances to win the "thing" I want. I'm taking a risk that by buying a pack, I have a chance to get one. I don't want the bikini my toons can't wear, I only want that "thing". My only purpose in buying one of these packs is to get that "thing". If I don't get that "thing", I will feel as though I lost...so I'll buy another pack and try again...That's not gambling in your opinion?

 

If I could exchange the box I received for another, then there would be no "risk"...but I can't.

 

And...as long as something is given in return, you don't feel it's gambling? Like the guy who posted that his states $5 lottery tickets guarantee you a $1 minimum "return"...that's not "gambling" to you since you're guaranteed to get something? Right?

 

There must be a risk of ZERO in return to make it gambling to you?

Edited December 13, 2013 by TUXs

[DOHboy]

If it helps, I'll post a screen shot when I get home from work this evening. I can understand if you are skeptical. my guess, as has been others', is that this feature is available after you've bought a certain number of cc's.

 

can I just scream photoshop now...or do I need to wait for the actual SS?

[DOHboy]

But I am "risking" something. I'm exchanging REAL money for CC's, the "currency" of this business. I must use these CC's to buy chances to win the "thing" I want. I'm taking a risk that by buying a pack, I have a chance to get one. I don't want the bikini my toons can't wear, I only want that "thing". My only purpose in buying one of these packs is to get that "thing". If I don't get that "thing", I will feel as though I lost...so I'll buy another pack and try again...That's not gambling in your opinion?

 

If I could exchange the box I received for another, then there would be no "risk"...but I can't.

 

And...as long as something is given in return, you don't feel it's gambling? Like the guy who posted that his states $5 lottery tickets guarantee you a $1 minimum "return"...that's not "gambling" to you since you're guaranteed to get something? Right?

 

There must be a risk of ZERO in return to make it gambling to you?

 

No more than trying to farm a Boss for a random loot drop. I'm "risking" time, energy, and opportunity to do something else for the "chance" that something i "want" to drop from the boss. There is a chance (1%) the boss will spawn. Because I am risking not finding it, I have to sit there and grind it out until it drops.

[ikinai]

But I am "risking" something. I'm exchanging REAL money for CC's, the "currency" of this business. I must use these CC's to buy chances to win the "thing" I want. I'm taking a risk that by buying a pack, I have a chance to get one. I don't want the bikini my toons can't wear, I only want that "thing". My only purpose in buying one of these packs is to get that "thing". If I don't get that "thing", I will feel as though I lost...so I'll buy another pack and try again...That's not gambling in your opinion?

 

If I could exchange the box I received for another, then there would be no "risk"...but I can't.

 

And...as long as something is given in return, you don't feel it's gambling? Like the guy who posted that his states $5 lottery tickets guarantee you a $1 minimum "return"...that's not "gambling" to you since you're guaranteed to get something? Right?

 

There must be a risk of ZERO in return to make it gambling to you?

 

No, to make it gambling there has to be a possibility of loss with zero return, that is a risk. Simply purchasing the pack is not a risky endeavor, you will get something as advertised. Just because you don't get what you want doesn't make it gambling.

[DOHboy]

No, to make it gambling there has to be a possibility of loss with zero return, that is a risk. Simply purchasing the pack is not a risky endeavor, you will get something as advertised. Just because you don't get what you want doesn't make it gambling.

 

you missed his point..he FEELS he lost, thus has risk. Well I'm sorry, We can't control what you FEEL. The world is not in the habit of controlling what people feel. That is up to the individual to determine and control.

 

And again, we can't reasonably discuss 'feelings' since what one person feels is not what someone else feels.

FEELING is an emotion, we can not argue with emotions.

 

You may FEEL it is gambling (emotional attachment) but does not mean it is (legally/logically/by definition) gambling.

 

Everyone opinion is right, that's why they have that opinion. If they felt their opinion was wrong, they would go get another one.

[HoloTweed]

But I am "risking" something. I'm exchanging REAL money for CC's, the "currency" of this business. I must use these CC's to buy chances to win the "thing" I want. I'm taking a risk that by buying a pack, I have a chance to get one. I don't want the bikini my toons can't wear, I only want that "thing". My only purpose in buying one of these packs is to get that "thing". If I don't get that "thing", I will feel as though I lost...so I'll buy another pack and try again...That's not gambling in your opinion?

 

If I could exchange the box I received for another, then there would be no "risk"...but I can't.

 

And...as long as something is given in return, you don't feel it's gambling? Like the guy who posted that his states $5 lottery tickets guarantee you a $1 minimum "return"...that's not "gambling" to you since you're guaranteed to get something? Right?

 

There must be a risk of ZERO in return to make it gambling to you?

 

But you're NOT risking anything. You are BUYING Cartel Coins. You get what you paid for.

 

You can choose to use cartel coins to buy specific, fixed items. Or you can choose to use cartel coins to buy packs that WILL HAVE ITEMS IN THEM. Yes, as long as something is given in return (even explained the type of items you will get) then it isn't gambling. First, you aren't risking money. You already bought something with your money - cartel coins. Is there a "risk" in buying cartel packs? Sure, since people will HOPE they get a particular item they want, knowing that there is only a percent chance they will.

 

It's like saying it's "gambling" when you put a quarter in a gum machine and hope you get a red gumball. You will get A gumball - there is a risk you won't get red, but it's a guarantee you will get gum.

[DOHboy]

But you're NOT risking anything. You are BUYING Cartel Coins. You get what you paid for.

snip

It's like saying it's "gambling" when you put a quarter in a gum machine and hope you get a red gumball. You will get A gumball - there is a risk you won't get red, but it's a guarantee you will get gum.

 

OH great point...we should just ban them outright, let alone the damage sugar gum does to childrens teeth and when swallowed will sit in the stomach for 100 years. now its a gambling addiction.

 

do people who chew lots of gum also have a gambling addiction? or just a sweet tooth?

[DimmuJanKaarl]

can I just scream photoshop now...or do I need to wait for the actual SS?

 

if you are predisposed to assume i'm a liar I'm not sure what I can say or do to change your mind. my guess is that the way this plays out with you is if I don't post a screenshot it'll be "pic or it didn't happen" and am a liar because i haven't supplied proof and if i do post one the only possible explanation is that it's fake. I honestly am not mentally equipped to deal with such unreasonableness.

 

at least one other person in this thread has stated that they see the same option in-game. I really don't know what else I can say or do. my advice is that you refrain from any further posting to this thread until you are satisfied that my initial claim was legitimate. to be honest I'm confused as to why you would waste your time continuing to post in a thread based on what you believe is a false premise.

[DOHboy]

if you are predisposed to assume i'm a liar I'm not sure what I can say or do to change your mind. my guess is that the way this plays out with you is if I don't post a screenshot it'll be "pic or it didn't happen" and am a liar because i haven't supplied proof and if i do post one the only possible explanation is that it's fake. I honestly am not mentally equipped to deal with such unreasonableness.

 

at least one other person in this thread has stated that they see the same option in-game. I really don't know what else I can say or do. my advice is that you refrain from any further posting to this thread until you are satisfied that my initial claim was legitimate. to be honest I'm confused as to why you would waste your time continuing to post in a thread based on what you believe is a false premise.

Facts:

1) you and someone else (I don't remember a second confirmation, but could have been me) says there is an option..

2) There has been ZERO information/patchnotes/feedback given by the powers that be that this option was a) in the works b) implemented

3) The options for in game purchase are tied to the purchase amounts on the forums.

4) The options for coin purchase amounts on the forums have not changed

5) There are people (who have a trust worthy reputation around here) that have said the option in game has NOT been implemented (which has been debunked by your statement that its tied to 'amount purchased').

 

So I can choose to accept the statement based on fact 1 alone.

 

or based on facts 2 - 5 choose to be skeptical and state as such. I can not confirm nor deny the existence of this option, however, the burden of proof is on you to prove it is, rather than for me to prove that it is not. I have much more evidence to the contrary that in support of.

[DimmuJanKaarl]

Facts:

1) you and someone else (I don't remember a second confirmation, but could have been me) says there is an option..

2) There has been ZERO information/patchnotes/feedback given by the powers that be that this option was a) in the works b) implemented

3) The options for in game purchase are tied to the purchase amounts on the forums.

4) The options for coin purchase amounts on the forums have not changed

5) There are people (who have a trust worthy reputation around here) that have said the option in game has NOT been implemented (which has been debunked by your statement that its tied to 'amount purchased').

 

So I can choose to accept the statement based on fact 1 alone.

 

or based on facts 2 - 5 choose to be skeptical and state as such. I can not confirm nor deny the existence of this option, however, the burden of proof is on you to prove it is, rather than for me to prove that it is not. I have much more evidence to the contrary that in support of.

 

On the contrary, there is no burden of proof on me at all. I have no burden whatsoever to prove anything to you. It is not my purpose or goal in life to appease you personally, and I certainly won't put any effort into attempting rational discourse if your only desire is to attack me. I've made a statement of fact about a feature that i can access in game. You can choose to believe it or not. I completely understand your rationale for being skeptical, but you've essentially said that there is no way that I can prove to you that what I've said is true even though you say the burden of proof is on me. I'd say that creates an impasse so any effort on my part is wasted on you before i even start. so I won't waste any more of either your or my time discussing this any further with you.

[Infernixx]

you missed his point..he FEELS he lost, thus has risk. Well I'm sorry, We can't control what you FEEL. The world is not in the habit of controlling what people feel. That is up to the individual to determine and control.

 

And again, we can't reasonably discuss 'feelings' since what one person feels is not what someone else feels.

FEELING is an emotion, we can not argue with emotions.

 

You may FEEL it is gambling (emotional attachment) but does not mean it is (legally/logically/by definition) gambling.

 

Everyone opinion is right, that's why they have that opinion. If they felt their opinion was wrong, they would go get another one.

 

Just about anything can be turned into a gambling endeavor by people who want to gamble. Two people sitting by the road watching traffic can 'gamble' by betting on who can spot the next Volkswagen to come along.

 

That doesn't make traffic-watching into a gambling endeavor. It just means some people are pathetic.

[OddballEasyEight]

But I am "risking" something. I'm exchanging REAL money for CC's, the "currency" of this business. I must use these CC's to buy chances to win the "thing" I want. I'm taking a risk that by buying a pack, I have a chance to get one. I don't want the bikini my toons can't wear, I only want that "thing". My only purpose in buying one of these packs is to get that "thing". If I don't get that "thing", I will feel as though I lost...so I'll buy another pack and try again...That's not gambling in your opinion?

 

If I could exchange the box I received for another, then there would be no "risk"...but I can't.

 

And...as long as something is given in return, you don't feel it's gambling? Like the guy who posted that his states $5 lottery tickets guarantee you a $1 minimum "return"...that's not "gambling" to you since you're guaranteed to get something? Right?

 

There must be a risk of ZERO in return to make it gambling to you?

 

You are not risking anything.

I have bought cartel packs with CC since they came out and I have gotten every single item I wanted without any risk whatsoever.

I just sell the unopened packs on the GTN and buy whatever I want with the profits from that.

"But then someone else is taking the chance" you say.

Yes... but since I am selling it on the GTN for in-game credits, nobody who buys my pack are "risking" any real money.

 

I am saying this because in your post you make it seem like you have to buy the cartel packs with CC to get the stuff you want.

That simply is not true.

Hell, even if nobody ever bought a cartel pack using CC with the intent of opening it, there still would be no problems. They would be sold on the GTN and people could open them without risking real money.

Now, if someone truly has a gambling addiction, then this might be enticing to them. But so might buying the happy meals at mcdonalds to get that one toy you want. Or throwing money into those machines that give you a plastic bubble with a prize inside, just to get that cool green lantern ring they saw in the machine.

None of them are gambling, but both may be interesting to gamblers.

But thankfully, a gambler with this problem in SW:TOR only needs to do his dailies to get money to buy the packs off the GTN.

Edited December 13, 2013 by OddballEasyEight

[oofalong]

RE: "Cartel Packs are Gambling" Debate

 

It's Not Gambling

The issue is there is no all encompassing definition of gambling. At best different definitions exist on a spectrum. This is demonstrated by the various people who reference dictionary definitions around the web. Plus, there are legal definitions and there are individual definitions. Each state/country sets their own rules on gambling, and do so to ensure the activities are regulated for tax purposes. There may be some social benefits elements as well, but the primary concern is oversight and taxes.

 

Anyone who opens packs acknowledges there is a degree of uncertainty or chance or risk in doing so - to suggest otherwise is disingenuous and foolish. Said another way anytime you open a pack you are taking a chance on its contents. Now does this mean that packs are gambling? Not necessarily. It certainly is not the same as a hand of Blackjack or a spin of the Roulette Wheel, which are generally agreed upon as gambling. Opening a pack from the Cartel Market most closely approximates a booster of Magic cards or pack of Baseball cards. You receive random or unknown items from a known assortment; you may or may not know the probability of receiving any one item.

 

Based on this, if you want to consider packs gambling feel free, but recognize for many it is difficult to draw sufficient parallels between packs and $100 on Black in Roulette. If you do, I'd like to ask your opinion on two areas that seemingly would also be considered gambling:

 

• Loot Rolls: Every time loot is award to a player, chance is involved. You knowingly engage in some activity that gives you a chance for a known outcome.
  
• Queue Pops: Nearly every time you queue for something, chance is involved; whether it is GS battles, Ranked PvP, Flashpoint or whatever there is chance. Again, You knowingly engage in some activity that gives you a chance for a known outcome.
  

 

Are these not gambling too based on the same logic?

 

It is Gambling

On the other hand, the Cartel Market packs have been a financial boon for BioWare. Undoubtedly some who suffer from poor impulse control or whose judgement is impaired have contributed to the success of the packs at their detriment. In other words, some people have spent a lot of money opening packs. These people may mirror individuals who are likely addicts of gambling or practically anything. Do the Cartel Market packs represent a device or mechanism for people to satisfy their addiction? It can. Realistically, I believe these are the same people who spend extra money to buy Cartel Coins. Does the in-game purchase option make it easier for them? Yes. Will the higher purchase amount cause them to make bad decision more easily? Yes. Does BioWare have a responsibility to protect these people from themselves? No, individuals are still responsible for their actions.

 

To expand on this, while I won't generalize for every country, I can say for at least the countries I have lived in, which is more than 1 and less than 10, personal responsibility is a central pillar to their society. People are responsible for their actions. This is good and bad, and allows for great success, but it facilitates abject failures. Still, people are free to choose their actions, and are responsible for the outcomes. Many people will make bad decisions. For example, some will choose to drink, smoke, use other drugs and play video games for 10+ per day.

 

The question of whether packs are gambling or not is a semantic argument, which so far has masked the underlying issue: What tactics can a corporation employ to achieve their goals? In this case, BioWare's goal is to make money. I'm sorry if you feel BioWare is employing malicious tactics, based on society's standards they are not though.

[branmakmuffin]

There must be a risk of ZERO in return to make it gambling to you?

There must be a risk of losing your "stake" for it to be defined as "gambling" period.

 

Whether or not it meets the strict definition of gambling that you are clinging to, when you buy a cartel pack with the intent of getting a specific item you are playing the odds just like you do when you are gambling. So, even if it would not be considered gambling in a court of law, it is none the less so much like gambling that to refer to is as gambling certainly seem reasonable to me.

If being incorrect seems reasonable to you, fine.

 

Also, by your definition, If I were to place a one hundred dollar bill into one envelope, and a one dollar bill into ninety nine envelopes, and I were to sell these envelopes for ten dollars a piece, then your argument suggests that people who buy these envelopes are not gambling. I disagree.

That is gambling and it is completely different from buying a pack. When you buy a pack, you get exactly what the tool tips says the pack will contain. When I buy one of your envelopes, I'm risking $9 on the chance to win $90 (net). I could lose my entire stake of $9. I'm not buying a $1 bill for $10. Therefore, gambling. But nice attempt at a straw man.

 

I also did a Google search on the words "gambling definition", and the second detention that it returned was, "take risky action in the hope of a desired result", Now, using that detention I ask you if buying cartel pack or buying my envelopes would be gambling.

You're not risking anything when you buy a cartel pack. You are making a purchase. Is buying an ice cream cone on a hot day "taking a risk" because it might melt and fall off before you can eat it?

 

I think that in practical terms that both purchases are a form a gambling.

You might think that, but in the case of cartel packs, you would be wrong.

 

Continue to disagree if you want, but you really shouldn't expect to change any reasonable persons mind on this.

I don't need to change any reasonable person's mind. The unreasonable people with the "This is gambling!" bugaboo? Probably nothing will change their minds.

Edited December 13, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[DarthTHC]

You're not risking anything when you buy a cartel pack. You are making a purchase. Is buying an ice cream cone on a hot day "taking a risk" because it might melt and fall off before you can eat it?

 

Apples to oranges.

 

Buying an ice cream cone on a hot day that could be any flavor from vanilla to chocolate to blue moon to pig manure based on random chance is taking a risk, wouldn't you say?

[DOHboy]

Apples to oranges.

 

Buying an ice cream cone on a hot day that could be any flavor from vanilla to chocolate to blue moon to pig manure based on random chance is taking a risk, wouldn't you say?

 

shall we start defining risk as it pertains to gambling since we defined gambling and betting..perhaps we need to discuss risk, loss, value, and make sure all those are defined so that we can then define gambling.

 

is buying a random flavor of ice cream a risk..no. its a risk it wont meet your expectations.

[DOHboy]

shall we start defining risk as it pertains to gambling since we defined gambling and betting..perhaps we need to discuss risk, loss, value, and make sure all those are defined so that we can then define gambling.

 

is buying a random flavor of ice cream a risk..no. its a risk it wont meet your expectations.

 

Risk: possibility of something "unpleasant"

Unpleasant: not pleasant

Pleasant: causing a feeling of happiness or pleasure.

 

Well there you go, I can't help what you feel. I offer you something I can't help how it makes you feel. You purchase something "hoping" it will make you feel better, but it doesn't is not something I can help.

 

If you do not get enjoyment from opening packs I can not help you "feel" differently. You are the master of YOUR expectations. YOU might be gambling with your expectations, MY expectations are grounded in reality and thus am not gambling when I open a pack.

[MaximusRex]

You can call it what you want, at the end of the day most people are going to agree that this is gambling. Hell almost every single talkshow/Reviewer personality calls these things "Lottery Boxes".

 

Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy that states just because a lot of people think something is true, then it has to be true. But the fact is the truth of something has about zero to do with how many believe it to be so.

 

The majority of people used to think the Earth was flat, yet the Earth was never flat.

 

So it doesn't matter how many people call it gambling or think its gambling, it's not gambling just by virtue of how gambling is defined by law, and yet these transactions are totally unregulated by those laws.

[SawneyRath]

You're all just arguing for the sake of arguing by this point.

[DOHboy]

You're all just arguing for the sake of arguing by this point.

 

that is your opinion...

 

or should i have gone with "no we're not"

 

[jedip_enguin]

Not this **** again...

[Wintermist]

It's getting ridiculous now. "It's not a risk so it's not gambling" and so on.

 

There is a risk. You buy the Cartel Coins with real money in hope of getting an item from a pack with random items in it. The risk is you will never get that item, you could spend endless amounts of money on it, and still not get it. That is the risk. It is a gamble. It doesn't matter that you get other items, you're not getting the item you want. But that really has no stake in the matter. It's a game of chance, like all gambling. You're losing real money not getting a virtual item.

 

You can keep arguing that it is not due to it falling outside the law, maybe the game SHOULD fall into those laws now, but it is no doubt that it is gambling anyway. Regardless of what the law sais though, gambling is gambling.

 

Here's a definition of gambling from a dictionary:

 

gam·ble [gam-buhl] Show IPA verb, gam·bled, gam·bling, noun

 

verb (used without object)

1. to play at any game of chance for money or other stakes.

2. to stake or risk money, or anything of value, on the outcome of something involving chance: to gamble on a toss of the dice.

 

verb (used with object)

3. to lose or squander by betting (usually followed by away ): He gambled all his hard-earned money away in one night.

4. to wager or risk (money or something else of value): to gamble one's freedom.

5. to take a chance on; venture; risk: I'm gambling that our new store will be a success.

 

noun

6. any matter or thing involving risk or hazardous uncertainty.

7. a venture in a game of chance for stakes, especially for high stakes.

 

Reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gambling?s=b&path=/

 

As you can see it easily falls under a number of these points. What is there even to argue about?

[DOHboy]

It's getting ridiculous now. "It's not a risk so it's not gambling" and so on.

 

There is a risk. You buy the Cartel Coins with real money in hope of getting an item from a pack with random items in it. The risk is you will never get that item, you could spend endless amounts of money on it, and still not get it. That is the risk. It is a gamble. It doesn't matter that you get other items, you're not getting the item you want. But that really has no stake in the matter. It's a game of chance, like all gambling. You're losing real money not getting a virtual item.

 

You can keep arguing that it is not due to it falling outside the law, maybe the game SHOULD fall into those laws now, but it is no doubt that it is gambling anyway. Regardless of what the law sais though, gambling is gambling.

 

Here's a definition of gambling from a dictionary:

 

 

 

As you can see it easily falls under a number of these points. What is there even to argue about?

 

see post 77..

[Exly]

what are you risking?

 

Look to the original post speaking about purchasing CC's. So, anybody buying them in order to buy packs are putting those coins, and by extension their dollars at risk in the same way that somebody who buys chips at a casino and then plays any table game puts their chips/money at risk.

[Wintermist]

see post 77..

 

And? So a casino where you buy tokens to use on different tables such as Blackjack and whatnot instead of using real money at the table is not gambling according to you? It's the same thing.

 

EDIT: Also, so if that casino offer you a balloon every time you don't win money as you intended would in your head not be called gambling either?

Edited December 13, 2013 by Wintermist