$100 in a couple clicks. SCARY.

[Blackholeskipper]

There is no risk of losing money. You pay for a virtual product and you get exactly that virtual product.

You don't because the virtual products you're paying for are based on chance. Say there's someone who REALLY wants a varactyl mount... he could spend a 1000 dollars and still not get that product. Therefore, when that person buys a pack, that person is gambling.

 

You don't risk losing money. You are guaranteed to lose money, and you are guaranteed items in return.

Yes but obviously the buyers are only interested in a few items of the pack. So in order to get certain items, they have to sift through other items they don't want. So yes, they need to gamble when they buy a pack.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Blackholeskipper

[DOHboy]

see previous comments: Not gambling

 

Not Betting

 

and the circle is no complete...

 

mmm lion kittens.

[AlienEyeTX]

Think about those boxes of little collectible figures. Those have random contents. You know you are getting a figure, but you don't know which one. That is not a gamble. If it is, walk into any Target, Best Buy, or comic shop and ask to see their gambling license. Wait for laughter to ensue.

 

Random =/= Gamble

[Infernixx]

You don't because the virtual products you're paying for are based on chance. Say there's someone who REALLY wants a varactyl mount... he could spend a 1000 dollars and still not get that product. Therefore, when that person buys a pack, that person is gambling.

 

He can call it gambling if he likes, it's not gambling because he's deliberately ignoring what the Packs say and don't say.

 

It doesn't say 'Varactyl included in every pack!' It doesn't say 'Guaranteed Mount with every pack!'

 

it says 'random.'

 

If your friend is that dumb, then he deserves to lose $1000. He can buy a Varactyl off the GTN for a mil or less these days.

[Blackholeskipper]

If your friend is that dumb, then he deserves to lose $1000. He can buy a Varactyl off the GTN for a mil or less these days.

My hypothetical "friend" isn't real so no, he's fine.

[Forgon]

The packs themselves are not gambling. You can make a gamble with them, but that's entirely on you.

 

You are investing coins into a pack with random items. Now if you say, "I am buying this pack with hopes to get something I can use or sell," that's you gambling with the packs. The packs have their guarantees. There's no chance of getting nothing. Whatever value you or the MMO community puts on the item is another thing entirely.

 

A lot of arguments I'm seeing on cartel packs=gambling are based on their own impositions on a product that is telling you exactly what you got with no chance of failure (beyond a glitch or bug happening).

 

Btw, I don't buy cartel packs, although I used to buy trading card packs. That's not gambling and neither is this.

[Gaudrath]

Cartel Packs are the very definition of a Grab Bag, only it's pixels and not real items. If you buy a Pack, you know exactly what sort of items that you're going to get. There's no chance of loss. You're 'buying' something.

 

Gambling entails risking money with a chance of no return whatsoever.

 

Cartel Packs are not gambling, no matter how much you want it to be gambling. Sorry. You can't argue away reality.

 

First, grab bags are a party game. You put something in to get something back, but you don't go to a party and participate in a grab bag with the intent of walking away with something great.

 

Nobody buys cartel packs with the intention of getting two rare items which can be bought on the GTN for 20 000 creds. The very structure of every single pack supports this - just examine them. Each and every pack has a chance of landing you a truly rare/wanted item. Not labeled as rare, actually rare. Not labeled as valuable, designed to be valuable and perceived as valuable by the general playerbase.

 

And by the way, gambling does not entail risking money. At all. You can gamble with marbles. Or collectible cards. It entails risking something of value for a small chance of getting something of greater value, simple as that. It doesn't matter that you get *something* out of it.

I could build a slot machine that is guaranteed to return 10 cents for every dollar played - in fact, most machines are designed to dole out carefully calculated amounts in regular intervals to keep people pulling that handle hoping the next one will be big.

 

It's a simple trick, and it works. Marketing world is filled to the brim with such tricks. Deny it all you want, but some very smart people spend a lot of time creating systems designed to cash in on human psychological weaknesses, and tendency to gamble is a BIG one. Denial is another one, by the way.

[Glowrod]

It's really funny watching everyone go at it! OMG does it really even matter? Either you will buy it or you won't. No matter how much you all argue, BW will only stop selling them if people stop buying them. Since that's never going to happen...

[Blackholeskipper]

First, grab bags are a party game. You put something in to get something back, but you don't go to a party and participate in a grab bag with the intent of walking away with something great.

 

Nobody buys cartel packs with the intention of getting two rare items which can be bought on the GTN for 20 000 creds. The very structure of every single pack supports this - just examine them. Each and every pack has a chance of landing you a truly rare/wanted item. Not labeled as rare, actually rare. Not labeled as valuable, designed to be valuable and perceived as valuable by the general playerbase.

 

And by the way, gambling does not entail risking money. At all. You can gamble with marbles. Or collectible cards. It entails risking something of value for a small chance of getting something of greater value, simple as that. It doesn't matter that you get *something* out of it.

I could build a slot machine that is guaranteed to return 10 cents for every dollar played - in fact, most machines are designed to dole out carefully calculated amounts in regular intervals to keep people pulling that handle hoping the next one will be big.

 

It's a simple trick, and it works. Marketing world is filled to the brim with such tricks. Deny it all you want, but some very smart people spend a lot of time creating systems designed to cash in on human psychological weaknesses, and tendency to gamble is a BIG one. Denial is another one, by the way.

 

Well put. Pretty much this. The cartel packs are designed to take advantage of people who can't control their urge to gamble. I'm not one of those people but I do think there should be limits to how much you can spend in one go. 100 dollars at once is A LOT for virtual items that won't exist in a few years (and there's a big chance you might not even get what you want).

[branmakmuffin]

You don't risk losing money. You are guaranteed to lose money, and you are guaranteed items in return.

I think we call that a "purchase," don't we?

 

 

Well put. Pretty much this. The cartel packs are designed to take advantage of people who can't control their urge to gamble.

Their urge to shop.

Edited December 12, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[AlienEyeTX]

I think we call that a "purchase," don't we?

 

 

 

Their urge to shop.

 

Exactly.

 

Did I just agree with Bran?

[Blackholeskipper]

Their urge to shop.

Semantics.

[branmakmuffin]

Exactly.

 

Did I just agree with Bran?

I think it happened once before. You said Copernicus was right and I grudgingly agreed.

 

Semantics.

Right, the difference between "shopping" and "gambling" is highly nuanced.

Edited December 12, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Strixs]

Of course it is gambling and anyone claiming otherwise is just deluding themselves. I do not care for legal definitions, they're important to lawyers who live in their own little world.

 

What we have in CM, and indeed in pretty much any other virtual shop offering a *chance* to get something of value, is pure gambling in digital form. You spend something of value, for a *chance* to get something you want. Thus it is a game of chance, otherwise known as gambling.

 

End of discussion.

 

Agreed imho screw lawyer speak.

If you pay money for something that you want. But the thing you want has a % chance of you getting it.

Screams gambling!

 

Just like Buying a lotto ticket.

Sure you bought it, you say there is no risk. Really though you won't get what you want most of the time.

IE Gambling

[RandomXChance]

Risk of losing money. Risk of not getting the items you want.

 

So now we are equating any type of risk to gambling?

 

Lets use the previously mentioned example of the Veractyl. You have two choices.

 

1. Buy it off the GTN for 3 million credits. You can grind for these credits or buy packs and sell them on the GTN for the credits.

2. Buy packs and open them in the hope that you will get a Varactyl by opening fewer packs than it would require to sell them for the credits. You are taking a chance (call it gambling if you like) on getting that Varactyl for less.

 

You never "lose" by getting nothing in return for you money (RL or virtual). You always end up with product even if it is not what you were looking for. The product being physical or virtual is irrelevant. Since this type of activity is not legally gambling, some will look at it as gambling and others not. Neither is technically wrong.

 

For reference some other things that use the same business model (I had forgotten about the machines that usually gave a crappy toy, but very rarely a really nice toy).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon

http://www.diamondcandles.com/#/.

Edited December 12, 2013 by RandomXChance

[branmakmuffin]

Agreed imho screw lawyer speak.

If you pay money for something that you want. But the thing you want has a % chance of you getting it.

Screams gambling!

Scream away, if it makes you feel better.

[MillionsKNives]

First, grab bags are a party game. You put something in to get something back, but you don't go to a party and participate in a grab bag with the intent of walking away with something great.

 

But you could. It doesn't matter what you go there intent on getting.

 

Nobody buys cartel packs with the intention of getting two rare items which can be bought on the GTN for 20 000 creds. The very structure of every single pack supports this - just examine them. Each and every pack has a chance of landing you a truly rare/wanted item. Not labeled as rare, actually rare. Not labeled as valuable, designed to be valuable and perceived as valuable by the general playerbase.

 

Nobody? You sure about that? I've purchased a few packs on the GTN just to see what I got. Guess what, I got the stuff I was advertised.

 

And by the way, gambling does not entail risking money. At all. You can gamble with marbles. Or collectible cards. It entails risking something of value for a small chance of getting something of greater value, simple as that. It doesn't matter that you get *something* out of it.

I could build a slot machine that is guaranteed to return 10 cents for every dollar played - in fact, most machines are designed to dole out carefully calculated amounts in regular intervals to keep people pulling that handle hoping the next one will be big.

 

Paying a dollar and getting $.10 back is not a return, you pay $.90. If you buy a $2.50 soda with a $20 and he hands you back your change, did you just get a return of $17.50? No, you paid $2.50.

[Blackholeskipper]

Also, I'm not arguing that they should get rid of cartel packs because it's like gambling. I'm saying they could be more reasonable about the prices and make it less like a cash grab at takes advantage of the more vulnerable members of their player base.

 

Using the varactyl example again, why not make a pack of the 4 different varactyl mounts. That way, if someone really wants one, they'll get one. Guaranteed. They might still have to buy multiple packs to get the right color but this way they are guaranteed a product that's closer to the thing they gambled for in the first place. Plus, it's much easier to get what they want. And the pack could be more expensive, like 1000 cc or more. Everybody wins.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Blackholeskipper

[Strixs]

Also, I'm not arguing that they should get rid of cartel packs because it's like gambling. I'm saying they could be more reasonable about the prices and make it less like a cash grab at takes advantage of the more vulnerable members of their player base.

 

Using the varactyl example again, why not make a pack of the 4 different varactyl mounts. That way, if someone really wants one, they'll get one. Guaranteed. They might still buy multiple packs to get the right color but this way they are guaranteed a product that's closer to the thing they gambled for in the first place. Plus, it's much easier to get what they want. And the pack could be more expensive, like 1000 cc or more. Everybody wins.

 

You sir are making some sense

 

make it less like a Lotto and more a pay for what you want would make it more of a legit business transaction then a casino style transaction for people who want certain things.

[Infernixx]

You sir are making some sense

 

make it less like a Lotto and more a pay for what you want would make it more of a legit business transaction then a casino style transaction for people who want certain things.

 

You do know that you can buy any and all CM items on the GTN for in-game credits, right?

[branmakmuffin]

Also, I'm not arguing that they should get rid of cartel packs because it's like gambling. I'm saying they could be more reasonable about the prices and make it less like a cash grab at takes advantage of the more vulnerable members of their player base.

The "vulnerable" members of their player base choose to purchase the CC and the packs with the CC. It's not BWEA's to curb people's obsessions.

 

Using the varactyl example again, why not make a pack of the 4 different varactyl mounts. That way, if someone really wants one, they'll get one. Guaranteed. They might still buy multiple packs to get the right color but this way they are guaranteed a product that's closer to the thing they gambled for in the first place. Plus, it's much easier to get what they want. And the pack could be more expensive, like 1000 cc or more. Everybody wins.

The ashfall tauntaun is 3000 CC. That's what a varactyl would be (well, maybe a bit less it it's your hypothetical pack which could contain any of the varactyls). You seem to think 1000 CC is a good price. BWEA seems to think 3000 CC is. You willing to pay 3000 CC for that varactyl (assuming you actually want a varactyl)?

[Strixs]

Scream away, if it makes you feel better.

 

You do this a lot, taking away from the subject at hand.

 

The OP has a real legitimate reason why he thinks EA/Bioware should do things to avoid taking advantage of people's real life health/mental problems & bad habits they may have.

 

I can understand his/her feelings and agree it would be wise for bioware to think about changing the way they run their cash shop. People have given some nice examples like packs for only particular items / just have that item only for sale.

[RandomXChance]

Also, I'm not arguing that they should get rid of cartel packs because it's like gambling. I'm saying they could be more reasonable about the prices and make it less like a cash grab at takes advantage of the more vulnerable members of their player base.

 

Using the varactyl example again, why not make a pack of the 4 different varactyl mounts. That way, if someone really wants one, they'll get one. Guaranteed. They might still have to buy multiple packs to get the right color but this way they are guaranteed a product that's closer to the thing they gambled for in the first place. Plus, it's much easier to get what they want. And the pack could be more expensive, like 1000 cc or more. Everybody wins.

 

Unfortunately, the only time a business usually lowers the price is when the product is not selling. As we have seen with the rather ugly Ashfall Tauntan, the market is happy to bear these prices. It makes me sad when I see someone riding one because they are just encouraging EA to raise the prices even further because if a boring reskin gets 3,000 CC, how much will a nice looking one get?

 

I like that the Cartel Market, and the grab-bag packs in it, have pretty much saved this game. It is a sleazy business model that works really well and so there is no incentive for it to be changed.

[Blackholeskipper]

You sir are making some sense

 

make it less like a Lotto and more a pay for what you want would make it more of a legit business transaction then a casino style transaction for people who want certain things.

Thanks!

You do know that you can buy any and all CM items on the GTN for in-game credits, right?

Well aware, I shop on the GTN all the time. Still, someone has to buy the cartel packs first for them to be on the GTN, right?

Edited December 12, 2013 by Blackholeskipper

[gorstram]

Wait...just because I call it what it is - GAMBLING - doesn't mean it's wrong of Bioware to do. I don't fault them one bit for selling people "chances" on obtaining rare loots for extra $ - they're a business, not a leader in morality and ethics. It's motivated by profit and "technically" they can claim it's "not gambling"...but only a fool would believe that it's NOT actually gambling. You aren't buying what you want, you're buying a CHANCE to get something you want (credits, speeder, armor, whatever)...hence it's very clearly gambling.

 

Pretend it's not gambling if you like - but it is. It's also not wrong of Bioware to do it. They can and they'd be silly not to try to make extra $ this way. WE control how profitable the CM is...so far I think it's safe to assume that WE have shown them that it's well worth their time and investment.

 

I don't disagree with you on the spirit of the product. The spirit of the product is gambling for super rares. The reality is that it's not gambling because they've classified a bunch of junk as "rares" and said that you get 2 rares and a chance at a super rare. Rare being completely subjective. Like the three "rare" dollar bills I have in my wallet, (they're rare because the serial numbers aren't the same).