Is It just me? Are Scouts a bit OP?

[Sharee]

There are 35 ships with records for the categories of damage, dps, kills, kill streaks, solo kills, assists. Of those 35 ships, 23 are identified as scouts and 0 are identified as strike fighters. You're saying this in no way indicates that scouts (and in particular the Sting/Flashfire/Skybolt/Ocula mirror ships) have greater offensive potential than the strike fighters?

 

It is too soon.

 

People did not have time to upgrade multiple ships yet. Anyone who sets records with his chosen craft is pretty much guaranteed to have it fully upgraded, and that means all upgrades went into that one single ship, and all his other ships are unupgraded rustbuckets. He cannot simply switch to that, and continue to set records.

 

Thus the only thing the records page tells you right now is that all the good players chose the scout, and not the strike fighter, as their first ship to focus on, and they made this decision at the point when GS was released, way before anyone had any ideas whether any ships are overpowered or not.

 

Much later, when the good pilots have all their ships fully upgraded, and can freely switch between them without gimping themselves, only then can you use the records board for any kind of meaningful comparison.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Sharee

[ObiWanJabroni]

I guess I'm confused. You said you erased something and went into more detail, but then when I went back to check it was still wrong.

I said I erased a part of the original message on accident that went into better detail before is was originally posted. Hopefully that was clear enough that you can get past your passive aggressive tackiness.

 

 

 

There are 2 differences between the base scout and the Sting/Flashfire: their default components and their available components. You were comparing default components, and I was pointing out that wasn't very useful because the default components can easily be switched out. I was comparing exclusive components, things one ship can equip that the other can't.

 

The Flashfire/Sting is tougher and meaner because it can equip more dangerous weapons and more protective shield reactors than those available to the base scout. The base scout, meanwhile, is the only scout with the sensor array upgrades.

 

Ok then. I suppose since those components are so much tougher they should be removed from the game completely, for all ships.

 

 

Yaw is side-to-side turning and pitch is up-and-down turning. The scouts have advantages in both categories, and so are universally considered the best satellite huggers.

 

Incidentally, pitch and yaw don't translate directly into turn radius because the radius will depend upon speed. It is possible to have very fast turn rates but still have a large turn radius if you were boosting, for example.

 

So... What are you telling me exactly? That strikers can't hug a sat, or flashfires can while holding their boost down?

Or are you telling me that since they make good node guards they should be able to dogfight?

 

I noticed you play a sin. Tell me... Since you play one of the best node guards in the game, do you think you shouldn't be able to accomplish anything else as that class?

 

 

 

There are 35 ships with records for the categories of damage, dps, kills, kill streaks, solo kills, assists. Of those 35 ships, 23 are identified as scouts and 0 are identified as strike fighters. You're saying this in no way indicates that scouts (and in particular the Sting/Flashfire/Skybolt/Ocula mirror ships) have greater offensive potential than the strike fighters?

 

I'm saying that even if 23 are scouts, the data is worthless because you don't have ALL the data. If you want the truth, I rarely come to the forums with the exception of my server forums because by and large I find this to be one of the worst online communities I've ever been a member of. I don't find it hard to believe at all that most people not only don't care to post their records, but probably don't even know the forum records exists. I hate to be blunt like that, because there are some decent people here, but it's true.

 

To be clear, I'm not lumping most of you guys in there. Discussion is different than asking for nerfs. But in the two years I've been here this community has done more than its fair share of ruining this game. I'm just saying if have of this community was in the engineering bay inside the Esseles.... I would have taken the dark side choice.

 

It might also be that better pilots take scouts because they don't need the things that strikers bring to the table and would rather get to nodes quicker. Mobility, either controlling it or using it, is and will ALWAYS be king in PVP.

Edited December 16, 2013 by ObiWanJabroni

[RiVaN_]

I'm sure this has been mentioned a couple times in this thread, but the ships are not over powered. It is all about user skill. I am a pilot of moderate skill and I fly my NovaDive and FlashFire pretty well, averaging 6-8 kills per match with an equal amount of assists.

There are scout pilots out there that do 10-15 kills per match and an equal # of assist. Those players have a higher skill level than the average player and will make any ship seem over powered to the below average player. I have had the opportunity to Play GSF just a little bit more than most players and I can tell you that although the ship stats do matter for damage dealt and damage mitigated via shields and armor. A pilots skill with the mouse and aiming reticle mean a whole lot more.

I have played all the ships Imp and Republic, a good strike fighter pilot or an average gunship gunner can tear-up a FlashFire/Sting in seconds. Jedi Covenant Server has some amazing Imp Gunners and although my FlashFire is nearly maxed out at this point there are a couple Imp Gunships that I just don't even try to fight.

 

Don't change a thing BioWare, we as players just need to improve our own skill in the cockpit.

[Resipsal]

Ok then. I suppose since those components are so much tougher they should be removed from the game completely, for all ships.

 

All I've mentioned so far is nerfing Blaster Overcharge and Distortion Field's use ability. As this discussion has continued, however, it has become clear to me that the larger and more obvious ship imbalance is between the two types of scout. I'm not sure exactly what should be done about that, but it's clear some things need to be moved around to make the choice of which scout to fly more compelling.

 

So... What are you telling me exactly? That strikers can't hug a sat, or flashfires can while holding their boost down? Or are you telling me that since they make good node guards they should be able to dogfight?

 

No, I'm saying that no ship should be inferior to another ship, and therefore an unwise choice in a competitive metagame. Just for fun, I'll detail what I *think* Bioware was going for when they designed GSF:

 

Strikers: The dogfighter. The combination of firepower, durability, and weapon versatility to win in open space. While it is maneuverable enough to delay a satellite cap, its true strength lies in using its missile locks to peel pesky scouts off the node. I get the feeling Bioware anticipated the striker being the most played type of ship, as its role is less specialized than the others.

 

Scout: The recon and objective specialist, and gunship hunter. The only ship with the capability for nearly endless engine boosting and powerful enough sensors to quickly assess every enemy position on the map. It's game-best turning can make it deadly one-on-one, but it lacks the punch and survivability to kill enemy ships as quickly or safely as the strikers. Scout speed and sensor dampening allow it to surprise underdefended nodes, and its turning makes it the best satellite hugger. The engine and sensor power make it the best ship for spotting and harrying entrenched gunship snipers, while its evasion stat and agility mean even a surprised scout can dodge a railgun shot.

 

Gunship: The heavy support firepower and node guard. Because they are vulnerable alone, the gunship needs the assistance and coordination of teammates to thrive. They are particularly good against enemy strikers, who lack the sensors to spot them early, or the speed to chase them down quickly. Their awkward steering and ponderous engine speed can make it difficult to get set up, but if your allies can protect you, you'll drop the enemy faster than any other ship.

 

Not exactly rocks/scissors/paper, but depending on what is happening and what you're trying to do, you might choose a different ship each time you respawn. My fear is that the Sting/Flashfire can do too much of what both the scout and striker are supposed to excel at. Plus, I'm not sure sensor power alone is enough of a reason to justify flying a Novadive/Blackbolt over the Sting.

[LeonBraun]

I have to say I'm shaking my head at the absurdity of this thread suggesting that Scouts are anywhere near OP.

 

Scouts have a role in game and are certainly capable of performing it in the right pilots hands. However, Scouts will not (read: WIll NOT) out kill a Strike Fighter or Gunship of any skill. Nor should they be trying to; Scouts trying to top kill charts will only be watching their team lose as that is not their primary role.

 

Scouts excel at clearing and capturing satellites. They can also burst kill stationary or cherry picking ships. That's what they do. But once their CDs are on cool down, they fall to anything quick, including other Scouts. More than a handful of kills per match by a Scout should not be happening, and if if does, you'll want to be noting their lack of achieving objectives.

[Zoom_VI]

There are 35 ships with records for the categories of damage, dps, kills, kill streaks, solo kills, assists. Of those 35 ships, 23 are identified as scouts and 0 are identified as strike fighters. You're saying this in no way indicates that scouts (and in particular the Sting/Flashfire/Skybolt/Ocula mirror ships) have greater offensive potential than the strike fighters?

As I pointed out earlier in this thread about why Flashfires dominate the records

 

At this point all those kill and damage records are from people who do nothing but go after kills the entire match. This means that the moment a fight clears at one node they are zipping off towards the next bunch of red dots.

 

Strikes however are much slower which means that they have to spend more time traveling from fight to fight. Strikes are just as effective in a fight as flashfires but they spend more time travel to and fro which adds up to less kills. Thus the high speed Flashfire becomes the ship of choice when it comes to racking up kills.

 

Flashfires are the #1 ship for kill chasing.

[Zoom_VI]

No, I'm saying that no ship should be inferior to another ship, and therefore an unwise choice in a competitive metagame. Just for fun, I'll detail what I *think* Bioware was going for when they designed GSF:

 

Strikers: The dogfighter. The combination of firepower, durability, and weapon versatility to win in open space. While it is maneuverable enough to delay a satellite cap, its true strength lies in using its missile locks to peel pesky scouts off the node. I get the feeling Bioware anticipated the striker being the most played type of ship, as its role is less specialized than the others.

 

Scout: The recon and objective specialist, and gunship hunter. The only ship with the capability for nearly endless engine boosting and powerful enough sensors to quickly assess every enemy position on the map. It's game-best turning can make it deadly one-on-one, but it lacks the punch and survivability to kill enemy ships as quickly or safely as the strikers. Scout speed and sensor dampening allow it to surprise underdefended nodes, and its turning makes it the best satellite hugger. The engine and sensor power make it the best ship for spotting and harrying entrenched gunship snipers, while its evasion stat and agility mean even a surprised scout can dodge a railgun shot.

 

Gunship: The heavy support firepower and node guard. Because they are vulnerable alone, the gunship needs the assistance and coordination of teammates to thrive. They are particularly good against enemy strikers, who lack the sensors to spot them early, or the speed to chase them down quickly. Their awkward steering and ponderous engine speed can make it difficult to get set up, but if your allies can protect you, you'll drop the enemy faster than any other ship.

 

So basically you are declaring Flashfires (not scouts) OP because they do not conform to your opinion on what the class's role should be. In my opinion commandos should be the in-your-face melee AC and are overpowered because they have too many good ranged abilities.

 

Also your "scout" description is exactly what a blackbolt is. Why would they make the flashfire serve the exact same role as a Novadrive? These are ACs you can't lump Novadrives and Flashfires into the same role - that's like lumping VG and Mandos in the same category, despite the fact their roles are near opposite.

[Resipsal]

So basically you are declaring Flashfires (not scouts) OP because they do not conform to your opinion on what the class's role should be.

 

No, I was merely describing the balance that I'm guessing Bioware was trying to design in order to fend off the accusation that I think ships should have very narrow roles.

 

Also your "scout" description is exactly what a blackbolt is.

 

Indeed, that's part of the problem with this thread (as the OP has noted). The blackbolt is not a weak ship and is a lot of fun to dogfight in, but it also manages to not step on the toes of the strike fighters.

 

Why would they make the flashfire serve the exact same role as a Novadrive? These are ACs you can't lump Novadrives and Flashfires into the same role - that's like lumping VG and Mandos in the same category, despite the fact their roles are near opposite.

 

1. I don't believe the Flashfire should be the same as the Novadive. I accept that the Flashfire is a sturdier, deadlier scout variant. The problem is the Flashfire gains these advantages, but then does not give anything up (except for the sensor package).

 

2. To extend your metaphor about ACs: what if Bioware gave powertechs a healing tree, an unbreakable root, and made all their abilities usable at 30 meters? It's alright to be different, but it's not alright to have those differences enable you to make another AC redundant.

 

Scouts have a role in game and are certainly capable of performing it in the right pilots hands. However, Scouts will not (read: WIll NOT) out kill a Strike Fighter or Gunship of any skill. Nor should they be trying to; Scouts trying to top kill charts will only be watching their team lose as that is not their primary role.

 

Unfortunately for us all, your understanding of the metagame is exactly the opposite of what we are experiencing in the game.

[Sharee]

1. I don't believe the Flashfire should be the same as the Novadive. I accept that the Flashfire is a sturdier, deadlier scout variant. The problem is the Flashfire gains these advantages, but then does not give anything up (except for the sensor package).

 

But that's the whole point. The Flashfire description specifically says: "...new scout model--one that would trade away sensor and communications range along with specialized sensor tech in return for more powerful laser cannons, mid-range missiles and stronger defenses across the board."

 

So what you say is a problem actually matches the official craft description. The tradeoff is meant to be "combat capability at the cost of sensor package".

[Rieverre]

Then sensor package should mean more. Communications should mean more. As it it, the tradeoff is not nearly worth it. The ranges involved aren't nearly sufficient.

[Sharee]

Then sensor package should mean more. Communications should mean more. As it it, the tradeoff is not nearly worth it. The ranges involved aren't nearly sufficient.

 

I agree with that actually. Scouting with a dedicated sensor package would be a lot more important if the combat ships' sensor/comm range didn't make dedicated scouts redundant.

[mr_sim]

OK I believe I Have my answer. YES, yes scouts are OP.

 

Moreover I believe I've also discovered what needs to be adjusted, well sort of. Scouts need a nerf to their burst damage.

 

I found my answer in my most recent GSF match. It was an interesting match in that it was mostly Strikers there were essentially no GS(seriously I actually forgot the class existed for a moment) and only a couple scouts. Yup just a bunch of nuts like myself the love they way the striker flies and we all ended up in the same room somehow, and I must say it was one of the most enjoyable GSF I've ever flown. We even lost the match by a small margin.

 

For the record though I'm kicking myself now for no screen shot, I was top Imp flyer going 4-6-3(kill-assis-death) and 3rd overall with the 2 pubs above me having similar kill scores but more objective medals. This is not to brag or anything, I'm never so high on the boards, even when I've had higher K-A-D the rest of the group was still way farther up the board. I list my score because it's a big component on what I learned that match.

 

Striker vs Striker = a whole lot of burning through shields and It takes a bunch of time. I submit that the match had such low K-A-D numbers is because there was a whole lot of strikers absorbing damage but not dying, I was putting missile after missile and laser after laser into those strikers and it took plenty to burn though and kill them.

 

My constant experience is that a scout burns out my striker in seconds while the best I was able to manage with another striker was killing other strikers taking tens of seconds.

 

My conclusion is that Scout Burst damage I simply Insane most notably on the Sting/Flashfire as well as the cartel scout, I not these 2 classes because they use cluster missiles.

 

Gavin_Kevlar I've heard your argument about the evasion mechanic and while I agree with it and think scouts either need less evasion or simply remove the mechanic. The fact still remains that scouts can and are being built to out dps the strikers and so much so that striker toughness cannot mitigate against it to return the favor in the same spawn, hence average dps is irrelevant and burst dps is owning.

 

If Strike fighter cannot out dps a scout what the hell is the point Bioware?

 

Here is the most important fact however. Scouts make GSF less fun for Strike fighter pilots, Period.

 

Do not tell me that "it's the pilots not the class" see law of averages.

Do not tell me that "it's early days still, how can you declare some thing is broken" we already have one ship class on the blocks because it was broken, we need to catch as many balance issues now because If they try to change it later it's going to hurt even more.

 

Lets put it this way. I've heard it many times now from scout players, how much they really dislike flying the striker "too sluggish/slow" seems most popular. Well one day scout pilots are going to get diminishing experience in their toy cans they will have it all upgraded and are going to be looking for something new. How dumb will it be to offer such an inferior class as the striker to them at that point. As for the GS and the bomber wellthey are even slower still.

Edited December 23, 2013 by mr_sim

[Minidox]

OK I believe I Have my answer. YES, yes scouts are OP.

 

Moreover I believe I've also discovered what needs to be adjusted, well sort of. Scouts need a nerf to their burst damage.

 

I found my answer in my most recent GSF match. It was an interesting match in that it was mostly Strikers there were essentially no GS(seriously I actually forgot the class existed for a moment) and only a couple scouts. Yup just a bunch of nuts like myself the love they way the striker flies and we all ended up in the same room somehow, and I must say it was one of the most enjoyable GSF I've ever flown. We even lost the match by a small margin.

 

For the record though I'm kicking myself now for no screen shot, I was top Imp flyer going 4-6-3(kill-assis-death) and 3rd overall with the 2 pubs above me having similar kill scores but more objective medals. This is not to brag or anything, I'm never so high on the boards, even when I've had higher K-A-D the rest of the group was still way farther up the board. I list my score because it's a big component on what I learned that match.

 

Striker vs Striker = a whole lot of burning through shields and It takes a bunch of time. I submit that the match had such low K-A-D numbers is because there was a whole lot of strikers absorbing damage but not dying, I was putting missile after missile and laser after laser into those strikers and it took plenty to burn though and kill them.

 

My constant experience is that a scout burns out my striker in seconds while the best I was able to manage with another striker was killing other strikers taking tens of seconds.

 

My conclusion is that Scout Burst damage I simply Insane most notably on the Sting/Flashfire as well as the cartel scout, I not these 2 classes because they use cluster missiles.

 

Gavin_Kevlar I've heard your argument about the evasion mechanic and while I agree with it and think scouts either need less evasion or simply remove the mechanic. The fact still remains that scouts can and are being built to out dps the strikers and so much so that striker toughness cannot mitigate against it to return the favor in the same spawn, hence average dps is irrelevant and burst dps is owning.

 

If Strike fighter cannot out dps a scout what the hell is the point Bioware?

 

Here is the most important fact however. Scouts make GSF less fun for Strike fighter pilots, Period.

 

Do not tell me that "it's the pilots not the class" see law of averages.

Do not tell me that "it's early days still, how can you declare some thing is broken" we already have one ship class on the blocks because it was broken, we need to catch as many balance issues now because If they try to change it later it's going to hurt even more.

 

Lets put it this way. I've heard it many times now from scout players, how much they really dislike flying the striker "too sluggish/slow" seems most popular. Well one day scout pilots are going to get diminishing experience in their toy cans they will have it all upgraded and are going to be looking for something new. How dumb will it be to offer such an inferior class as the striker to them at that point. As for the GS and the bomber wellthey are even slower still.

 

Only one problem they cant balance Scout/strikers because the whole Gunship class breaks the whole dogfigthing equation. Remove it and yes they can tweak the other two classes and get a fair balance but if that crapptastic ship stays in NO they cant balance the two to be a fair fight couse gunship will EAT THEM UP if left alone as they are. SCOUTS are the only class that can burst them down fast enough (when mastered) before they barrel roll 10k out of range.

[SBR_QuorTek]

Think people need to think more of actual ratios

 

Scouts are needed more than strikefighters and strikefighters are needed more than gunships.

 

It is natural for bombers to have an escort of interceptors.

 

lets try and sum it up full squad of 12, max 2 of them gunships, more is a waste, 2-4 strike fighters for the extra kick when it is needed and 6 to 8 scouts to co-operate with the above ship types.

 

It is not because any ship is really superior over the other one, people forget that, you gotta look at how tactics work and how a squad would actually be 100% operational.

 

Concept is not really hard to understand, it is how it is supposed to be alike... would you guys like seeing 12 v 12 gunships fireing at each other? Just to mention an example.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Gavin_Kevlar I've heard your argument about the evasion mechanic and while I agree with it and think scouts either need less evasion or simply remove the mechanic. The fact still remains that scouts can and are being built to out dps the strikers and so much so that striker toughness cannot mitigate against it to return the favor in the same spawn, hence average dps is irrelevant and burst dps is owning.

 

Well I won't disagree with you that the burst dps might be a tad too high but I will qualify this by noting that the flashfire having some edge in DPS over the striker is fair since they don't have the hull/shield strength luxury of strikers to take time burning through shields. So putting flashfires equal to or weaker than strikers dps would make them ineffective in combat since they wouldn't be able to burn through 2/3 of the ship class's shields much less the hulls fast enough (burning through the enemy quickly is kinda key when you depend on mobility to survive, they longer it takes the less mobile you are and more likely to die).

 

To answer your question about what's the purpose of the striker I do think the dev updates on the scout & strikers sheds some light on what their intended roles are: http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-scout-class-starfighter http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-strike-fighter-class-starfighter)

 

According to my reading scouts/flashfire are meant to be the space superiority fighter of the game, they excel at ship to ship combat but this is naturally balanced out by lacking the ability to function as multirole starfighters. Having a majority of scouts means that your team is severely limited in their versatility to respond to sudden changes, if your team goes from holding the majority sats to holding 1 or none you may find you lack the versatility required to stage a come back.

 

My reading of Strikers is that they are the multirole starfighters of the game, they blend an ideal balance of offense, defense, and mobility to be the most versatile ship capable of destroying any target efficiently. What this translates to is being both good at dogfighting and taking on stationary targets (currently limited to turrets but presumably other stationary targets will be added in other maps/modes). In the game their versatility should make them the most capable starfighter to adapt to the changing situations during the course of a match.

 

I agree that it seems scouts have the potential to burn through my striker's defenses faster than an enemy striker. I That seems to be in part because evasion allows scouts to survive scenarios where strikers should have enough DPS to burn through a scout's defenses and shoot them down. By surviving this in turn grants a scout more opportunities to turn the tide in their favor to and use their higher burst DPS to burn through a striker's defenses.

 

But where the burst dps of scouts becomes noticeably a problem along with evasion is when it comes to attacking stationary targets (which falls outside of what a space superiority fighter should be capable of destroying effectively/efficiently). They pop evasion to become immune to turret fire and then use their high burst dps to take out stationary objectives on par with what a striker is capable of. Combined with their speed this gives scouts more versatility than strikers. This is where the true problem lies, scouts are able to perform their intended role plus the role of another class because of the way evasion and their burst dps combine. It'd be a problem if it just meant they were possibly slightly too good at shooting down strikers while still only being able to perform the intended role of their ship class (for example gunships 1 shotting people at 15K meters, a bit too good at their job yes but that power doesn't allow them to perform the role of another ship class with equal proficiency), but it's a severe inbalance when that translates to being able to also perform another ship's role. It'd be like a commando healer being able to do the dps of a slinger too, no way in heck would that be balanced and rebalancing would be needed to prevent the commando healer from being able to perform a role in addition to the intended one.

 

So what I guess I'm trying to say is that playing more rounds I've realized that my initial observations on evasion are only 1 part of the problem (your observations on burst dps being the other part). I think now that in all likelihood the inbalance with scouts is caused by how the incredible power of their burst dps combines with evasion to boost their survivability to both survive moments in dogfights when a striker gets the upper hand (no small feat since scouts have both a speed and agility advantage) and perform the multirole job of a striker with equal proficiency.

 

Only one problem they cant balance Scout/strikers because the whole Gunship class breaks the whole dogfigthing equation. Remove it and yes they can tweak the other two classes and get a fair balance but if that crapptastic ship stays in NO they cant balance the two to be a fair fight couse gunship will EAT THEM UP if left alone as they are. SCOUTS are the only class that can burst them down fast enough (when mastered) before they barrel roll 10k out of range.

 

Respectfully I can take down gunships just fine in my striker if I use the right tactics. I'm not as good at the pursuit part if they get away sure nor can I ambush them as easily since I take longer to reach them but you're truly underestimating a striker's potential if you think only scouts are capable of being a lethal threat to gunships (I grant scouts are a larger threat to gunships but that's as it should be since they're the space superiority fighter). In my experience gunships only eat scouts/strikers up when no one (scout, striker or gunships counter sniping) is bothering to try to keep them in check.

 

They have their own balance issues sure but, assuming a pilot isn't exploiting known balance issues (Ion Railgun for example), they aren't all powerful gods that can only be killed by a ship that has it's own balance problems.

 

Like it or not gunships are in all probability going to stay, they may get tweaked but I think the odds of them being permanently removed is about as good as having an AC in the ground game removed for being the FotM. So the obvious answer is if 1 ship is so unbalanced it needs another unbalanced ship to counter it then both ships need to be rebalanced not left alone so 1 of the 3 ships gets the short end of the stick.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Gavin_Kelvar

[mr_sim]

I have a Striker optimized for gunship hunting, though It's a rycer(star guard) and I've opted to keep the concussion missiles for mutlirole reasons where It really should have proton torps.

 

It might actually be the best gunship hunter in the game though I haven't done A<>B testing with specialty built scouts, and like i said it doesn't have the pro-torps.

 

Strikers can defiantly kill gunships, I actually would argue they are superior gunship killer though again I haven't done much comparative testing.

 

Gavin_Kelvar(think I spelled it right this time) I don't really know if Bioware even knows what each class is supposed to be. It feels more like they are throwing it at the wall, then labeling what actually sticks. I go back to my point of "scouts make it less fun for other classes" your theory about how tuning down the burst on Sting/Flashfire would break the class is really something PTS should examine I personally don't think it will break the class.

 

No either the attrition rate needs to go up or the kill rate needs to go down on scouts. Unless there are vastly different game modes where kills are somehow counter productive.

 

edit: read those links on classes. I read "strikers are there to kill turrets" yup turrets. /me facepalm. True story they kill turrets good but ummmmm, what about the other 95% of the match that isn't killing turrets. Seriously you could have 1 striker assigned to just killing turrets so lets fill the other 11 slots with scout and GS then? oh wait there is a "bomber" class. Damnit Bioware please read what the other hand is saying and actually look at your content, "killing turrets" is not a role in GSF.

Edited December 24, 2013 by mr_sim

[Gavin_Kelvar]

I have a Striker optimized for gunship hunting, though It's a rycer(star guard) and I've opted to keep the concussion missiles for mutlirole reasons where It really should have proton torps.

 

I run with that striker variant too. I'm currently toying with the idea of using heavies to back up my quads but I haven't gotten the chance to see how 100% armor pen + 20% shield pen blends on heavies for gunship hunting. What primary weapon build do you use?

 

Gavin_Kelvar(think I spelled it right this time) I don't really know if Bioware even knows what each class is supposed to be. It feels more like they are throwing it at the wall, then labeling what actually sticks. I go back to my point of "scouts make it less fun for other classes" your theory about how tuning down the burst on Sting/Flashfire would break the class is really something PTS should examine I personally don't think it will break the class.

 

to clarify I didn't mean to say tuning down the burst dps at all would break the flashfire, just that tuning it down too much could. As I see it the burst dps allows them to perform their intended role, but as you note, they can burn through defenses far faster than strikers so it may be that currently it allows them to perform their role too well and needs to be tuned down slightly while not completely eliminating the dps edge scouts have over strikers (sort of like if they can burn through defenses 25% faster than strikers it needs to be tuned down to 10-15% faster). My ultimate point though was that I do think you're on to something with the burst dps, I just think it's only a part of the problem and evasion is the other part. I hope that makes sense (it's 3AM here so maybe I'm loosing the ability for coherency).

 

I'd like to think BioWare has some idea of what each class is supposed to do on paper and it's just we're finding out ways to either make them perform that role better than they should be able or finding ways to use abilities to perform roles on the battlefield beyond what was intended. At least I'd rather be optimistic that they have some idea (although I'll concede it's entirely possible that you're right that they have no idea).

 

EDIT:

edit: read those links on classes. I read "strikers are there to kill turrets" yup turrets. /me facepalm. True story they kill turrets good but ummmmm, what about the other 95% of the match that isn't killing turrets. Seriously you could have 1 striker assigned to just killing turrets so lets fill the other 11 slots with scout and GS then? oh wait there is a "bomber" class. Damnit Bioware please read what the other hand is saying and actually look at your content, "killing turrets" is not a role in GSF.

 

That's what I meant by multirole. From what I gather scouts are intended to only be good at dogfighting (space superiority) and that important point about killing turrets means that strikers are supposed to be good at both dogfighting and kill turrets (multirole).

 

In theory that would mean that, short of a GS or bomber clearing turrets for scouts, if you want to take an enemy sat with turrets up you'll need strikers to clear the turrets (or work with scouts to perform an A-Wing Slash) unless you have a group of scouts eager for an en masse banzai charge. Scouts would work with strikers to then clear the sat of enemy defenders. That would lead to complimentary roles without overlapping significantly.

 

My assumption here is that the bomber will be the polar opposite of the scout. So the scout is the best dogfighter, the bomber is the best at taking out objectives like turrets and the striker is a blend of those two extremes, good at both but excelling at neither. (If you ever played the X-Wing games it would be the role balance between A-Wings, X-Wings, and Y-Wings). Currently though it seems that the scout is just as good at killing turrets as the striker while having an edge in dogfighting. Kinda problematic if I'm right about how scouts, strikers, and bombers fit together.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Gavin_Kelvar

[mr_sim]

I run with that striker variant too. I'm currently toying with the idea of using heavies to back up my quads but I haven't gotten the chance to see how 100% armor pen + 20% shield pen blends on heavies for gunship hunting. What primary weapon build do you use?

 

without firing up the game client, so going off memory. my GS killer is:

 

Rycer

rapid fire lasers(dogfighting, mutirole)

heavy lasers(these I use on GS and turrets) not yet bought the 10 000 requisition upgrades yet

concussion missiles again not yet bought the 10k upgrades yet

directional shields, @ teir 3 unlocks i think

Retro thrusters only teir 1 and 2 unlocked, teir 3 is kinda useless so no rush to dump 5k.

 

range capacitor fully upgraded

regen thrusters fully upgraded

 

I forget the rest but not all that relevant.

 

basically I built a rycer(starguard) that can go head to head with a GS starting at long range +1 000 km survive what the nGS dishes out and do 75% damage - kill in one pass depending on whether that GS goes evasive or not. My rycer does this with a better then 60% success and survival rate. Moreover when the GS does go evasive and survive the first pass I'm in position to drop in on his tail.

 

I've not had feed back but I assume It really get in the GS pilots heads when a striker beats them at their own game. This basic build works grate against GS from any angle. In a match where you have a 12 man premade, this build out will be a must have to bring to the fight. Fortunately there are currently 3 strikers available which is enough that as i build up requisition I will probably have my cartel striker purpose build for this role.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

without firing up the game client, so going off memory. my GS killer is:

 

Rycer

rapid fire lasers(dogfighting, mutirole)

 

How do you find them for dogfighting? I tried them and while I loved the ROF I found the damage underwhelming and so I switched to quads for that role (I use fully upgraded frequency capacitor to compensate for the slower base ROF). Do the rapids get better after putting upgrades into them?

 

I've actually found that with the ROF boosting capacitor gives heavies a fast enough ROF to be a nice opener/closer (although I'd imagine with the range boosting capacitor they'd be pretty good for that purpose too). I haven't gotten a chance but the armor piercing + shield piercing upgrades look like they have a lot of potential to be great for making kill shots after an enemy has built some shield power back to protect what little hull strength they still have.

 

Retro thrusters only teir 1 and 2 unlocked, teir 3 is kinda useless so no rush to dump 5k.

 

I think one of the tier 3 upgrades gives a 10% boost to turn rate. I use the thruster upgrade that grants a 10% boost which gives my striker the pitch/yaw stats almost identical to the base stats of a flashfire (I think the pitch difference is something like .06 and the yaw is .02). I combine the thruster turn rate boost component with the Tier 3 engine speed boost of the Koiogran to get a cruise speed higher than flashfire with default equipment. I guess you could do the inverse by using the speed thruster component with the retro's turn rate booster.

 

I don't know how much dogfighting you get into but I thought I'd give my experience with that combo if you want to even the odds a bit with flashfires (still doesn't solve the burst dps difference of course but until they do I figure anything that evens the playing field a bit is helpful). Don't know how that might impact gunship hunting since you'd loose the regen thrusters.

 

basically I built a rycer(starguard) that can go head to head with a GS starting at long range +1 000 km survive what the nGS dishes out and do 75% damage - kill in one pass depending on whether that GS goes evasive or not. My rycer does this with a better then 60% success and survival rate. Moreover when the GS does go evasive and survive the first pass I'm in position to drop in on his tail.

 

I've not had feed back but I assume It really get in the GS pilots heads when a striker beats them at their own game. This basic build works grate against GS from any angle. In a match where you have a 12 man premade, this build out will be a must have to bring to the fight. Fortunately there are currently 3 strikers available which is enough that as i build up requisition I will probably have my cartel striker purpose build for this role.

 

Thanks for the tips! Once I've mastered my star guard I'll have to try out your set up.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Gavin_Kelvar

[mr_sim]

Gavin_Kelvar

 

my memory failed me, I only have tier 1 on the retros, as tier 2 is worthless, and tier 3 is average I'm focusing my req to other things atm but will drop it here eventually. this is also part of my basic mutirole build however if when dropping in on a GS's tail I am being out braked it comes in handy, though it hasn't really happened so far.

 

As for the Rapid fire laser cannons I'm using them because of experiences I've had the odd time I fly a Black bolt(novadive) Truthfully I hate them, I'm all about big burly, linked fire, hard hitting cannons i.e. Heavy lasers. However the rapid fires are just plain hitting more often and doing more damage in aggregate.

 

I have the stock quads on my Quell(pike) but that ship is too new and all my upgrades are to missiles and my quads are literally still stock as far as ii recall.

 

Ion cannons, I have them unlocked but still stock on the Rycer and rarely equip them. My original build had heavy and ion but I'm back to the stock build for lasers. Truthfully I wasn't pilot enough at the time to deploy weapon swap mechanic effectively, and I'm currently too far committed to the stock build to play with Ions right now. I will try them out after I "master" that ship.

 

if you curious about my Quell(pike) It's:

 

cluster missiles

ion missiles

(proton torps are occasional alt to ion missiles)

I have decreased lock time on all three, A must have.

 

In fact if/when you buy the quell(pike) do not fly it right away, get a couple dailies done on your current class and build up some ship req on your quell, then unlock the shortened lock times on both missiles and if you take my advice unlock cluster missiles first thing.

 

The Rycer is clearly meant to be the dog fighter and the quell the fighter bomber, but I actually have the roles reversed, My Quell is now basically the Missile Boat from Tie Fighter(just need the SLAMS) I kill stuff with cluster missiles. Lemme tell you nothing is more pure in GSF then a successful Proton torp hit on a flashfire. Unfortunately this Quell build is pretty sad against turrets.

[mr_sim]

Ok Seriously, You can build a flashfire to kill a striker at full health/shields in 2 seconds flat! That's what happened to me in the last couple of matches, same guy in a couple instances head to head, 1>2>boom I'm dead. No assisting fire nothing, Cluster missiles + Burst lasers = my shield evaporated along with all of my hull. ***!!!

 

I"m not saying that there should be a build that works very well with good pilots such as this one was. But Scouts are supposed to be LIGHT!!!! But the flashfire/sting has more then enough shields to survive a single encounter, the speed of a scout, and the most powerful weapons loadout. How could you fit that many cluster missiles in that thing an still have a pilot too? Not to mention the power plant for that burst cannon too. I know it's a game and RL physics are not being consulted.

 

Is this class another Sorcerer/Sage. Back during game release 1.0 - 1.3 days the Sorcerer was hands down best class in operations, top DPS + off spec heals. Bioware admitted that the class was the one they honed the most, aka the Devs loved their Sorcs and couldn't/wouldn't give them a nerf until it was too painfully obvious to all the world they needed one. Are the Devs all about the Sting/flashfire, I get it the devs are human. I'd just like to read something about how they feel about all the claims we are seeing about the scout class.

[Brilo]

Distortion field is what makes Scouts overmatched for strike fighters in head to head attacks, something that scouts are specifically not supposed to be able to do. I also find it plain silly that a scout can "evade" any laser fire for 6 solid seconds even when sitting still. Distortion field should have a multiplicative affect on evasion, not a hardwired lasers-cannot-hit affect. In other words, a ship that sits completely still in space should never be able to "evade" a single well-aimed laser.

 

Strike Fighters should have a way to specialize shields to prevent shield penetration. A Strike against an equally skilled scout has absolutely no hope of survival under any given battle conditions, (cannot defeat the scout head on and will subsequently be outmaneuvered) which means there is no role for a strike in the current game.

[LeonBraun]

Distortion field is what makes Scouts overmatched for strike fighters in head to head attacks, something that scouts are specifically not supposed to be able to do. I also find it plain silly that a scout can "evade" any laser fire for 6 solid seconds even when sitting still. Distortion field should have a multiplicative affect on evasion, not a hardwired lasers-cannot-hit affect. In other words, a ship that sits completely still in space should never be able to "evade" a single well-aimed laser.

 

Strike Fighters should have a way to specialize shields to prevent shield penetration. A Strike against an equally skilled scout has absolutely no hope of survival under any given battle conditions, (cannot defeat the scout head on and will subsequently be outmaneuvered) which means there is no role for a strike in the current game.

 

This post clearly shows there is a "learn 2 play" issue here.

 

The fighters are balanced. Period. Claiming one is more OP than the other the way they are right now is like saying a DPS is more OP than a tank or healer in a Warzone, when really it's simply about roles and player preference.

 

I've played several hundred matches, using all three fighters. And it boils down to role and player preference. I play on a fantastic GSF server in Harbinger, and good pilots simply outplay poor pilots, in whatever fighter they happen to use. I've seen every type of fighter be dominant in the right hands, and all 3 be dominant in the hands of the same players, regardless of what they're flying.

 

My two most played types are scouts and Strikefighters (and play Gunships when I feel like it as well), and they're all equally as capable, of performing their roles. Scouts are the better objective fighters, and Strikefighters are better all round defenders/killers. They simply are. Sure scouts can down ships, but they have to manage their CD's very well, and have to work much harder to get a kill with their pea shooter weaponry.

 

My advice: Practice.

[mr_sim]

This post clearly shows there is a "learn 2 play" issue here.

 

The fighters are balanced. Period. Claiming one is more OP than the other the way they are right now is like saying a DPS is more OP than a tank or healer in a Warzone, when really it's simply about roles and player preference.

 

I've played several hundred matches, using all three fighters. And it boils down to role and player preference. I play on a fantastic GSF server in Harbinger, and good pilots simply outplay poor pilots, in whatever fighter they happen to use. I've seen every type of fighter be dominant in the right hands, and all 3 be dominant in the hands of the same players, regardless of what they're flying.

 

My two most played types are scouts and Strikefighters (and play Gunships when I feel like it as well), and they're all equally as capable, of performing their roles. Scouts are the better objective fighters, and Strikefighters are better all round defenders/killers. They simply are. Sure scouts can down ships, but they have to manage their CD's very well, and have to work much harder to get a kill with their pea shooter weaponry.

 

My advice: Practice.

 

I'll admit When I started this thread I had some "learn to play issues" as well there was and still is some general confusion about what ship plays what role because the scout and striker seem to do the exact same thing only the scout does it better. This discussion has lead me through adapting my tactics and improving my skill base, and I've leaned some truths and falsehoods.

 

Yes what he said about distortion fields is a bit false, I think that that ability may need a longer cooldown but it in principal is not game breaking.

 

Also the award system is pretty broken and certain roles such as long range interceptor are poorly rewarded.

 

However what you say, that all classes are balanced is also false. It actually sounds a bit ignorant, GSF has an extremely limited beta and that beta was tainted by grossly unexpected performance in the bombers, which was hiding results for other classes. This is fine actually as "Early Access" is really a beta, only we won't loss our progress at launch the way you do in beta.

 

Strike fighters are in fact balanced, you can see this anytime you engage another striker with your own striker.

 

Gunships I suspect are almost balanced, though the penetration may need to be toned down slightly.

 

Scouts however are not balanced, They have just a little bit too much shielding, their flight performance is balanced. But it really comes down to their damage dealing, they simply have too much burst damage.

 

ideally given equal opportunity a striker should be able to kill a scout in the same basic amount of time on target as the scout can kill a striker, hence it's striker has more armor/shields but scout is bursty. While striker is a more sustained damage dealer requiring more effort to wear things down but more confidence in living through it.

 

What we have is a class of scout that can kill anything in a fraction of the time any striker could ever match, so much so that the other craft(any class) cannot engage them, they simply get close and get killed.

[Lymain]

I'll admit When I started this thread I had some "learn to play issues" as well there was and still is some general confusion about what ship plays what role because the scout and striker seem to do the exact same thing only the scout does it better. This discussion has lead me through adapting my tactics and improving my skill base, and I've leaned some truths and falsehoods.

 

In my experience, if you're tailoring your strike fighter for a single role, you're going to be disappointed. The strike fighter is kinda like a hybrid in the ground game - jack of all trades, master of none. Once I started trying to minimize the weaknesses of my strikes instead of building towards a strength, I ended up having about the same success with them as I do with my scouts (maybe just slightly less).

 

ideally given equal opportunity a striker should be able to kill a scout in the same basic amount of time on target as the scout can kill a striker, hence it's striker has more armor/shields but scout is bursty. While striker is a more sustained damage dealer requiring more effort to wear things down but more confidence in living through it.

 

There are all sorts of issues with the above statement, but I'll just say that I believe scouts (at least the Flashfire/Sting) are supposed to be better 1v1, close-range dogfighters than strikes, and I think that makes sense considering how strikes are more versatile.

 

Not that these articles should be taken as gospel, but read the last paragraph of the article linked below. It sure sounds like Flashfires/Stings are intended to beat strikes in dogfights.

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-scout-class-starfighter

Edited December 27, 2013 by Lymain