Nail in the Coffin of Ops DPS

[wishihadaname]

Argument with flamer snipped.

 

Ok that guy is going a bit over the top and is being obnoxious. But are you really trying to say that the operative is viable right now? Here are a few facts.

 

For concealment

-Deception bursts much harder than concealment. (concealment bursts right out of stealth but its not enough to match the 20k that the deception sin will unload within 6 seconds of exiting stealth).

-Every other dps spec in the game maintains dps better than concealment (If you would like I can point you to dps parse websites that confirm this for both pve and pvp).

-Deception and Concealment share the same role (burst from stealth).

-Deception can also maintain fighting after bursting, concealment can't

-Concealment can self heal if they escape the fighting, but usually its a healers job to do that anyways.

 

For Lethality

-Our job looks like its supposed to be that of a dot based skirmisher (see Madness and Pyrotech), but we are the worst of the skirmishers by far because we lack the range advantage of the sorc/merc/sniper skirmishers and we also lack the damage and durability of the melee based skirmishers (pyrotechs/ap pyrotechs/assassins).

-We also lack synergy with most of our tree and have little use for stealth (a major theme of our class)

-We can't burst and run like concealment (can't run as well, can't exit combat due to all the dots to restealth)

 

Basically the point is this. Were not saying operatives can't do anything, were saying that everything they do is done better by a host of other classes.

-If you want control and armor pen, get a gunnery commando

-If you want CC and slow get a jug tank

-If you want dots get a pyro or a madness sorc

-If you want AOE get an engineer sniper or a smasher

-If you want stealth based burst get a deception sin

-If you want a gimped stealth based burst that also requires a ton more maintenance get a concealment op

-If you want someone that can attempt all of the above and fail at all of them simultaneously get a lethality op.

[RollaYoda]

Do you pay attention to what you put out there, or do you simply take whatever position is most likely to allay any refutation of an argument you're making?.

 

Refute my position? That DPS Ops suck? And where in the world have you managed to refute ANYTHING? That giant block of text that lists our pitiful attacks? Even before BW decided to completely make us worthless for 50% of the WZ's once they came out with 4 vs 4, the best we could do in 8's was to troll-lol -lol-lol an off node from a baddie team that would leave somebody guarding like a Lightning Sorc or maybe a Merc.

 

I would say that BW gave us the shaft in ranked arenas, but if you ever played a second of actual competitive 8 vs 8 ranked PvP, you would already know that NEARLY nobody ran a concealment operative and excelled with it, especially once bubble-troll came into existence; therefore, you can't shaft us from something we never saw anyway. I say nearly because we had two exceptions on Po5 when Meow Mix and ORW would bring their operatives, and they were the EXCEPTION, definitely not the rule. And this was definitely done Pre-Bubble Stun, after everybody switched to Bubble heals we never saw another Concealment on a good team again.

 

It's not my fault you and mt.doom cannot kill a target quickly as concealment with things like Acid Blade (30% armor penetration for 15s and damage over time and triggers TA), your Backstab, Shiv (activating TA with each use), Debilitate (your four second stun), Corrosive Dart and Laceration.

 

I will refer you to the below, because it pretty much explains everything we've already said, but you're obviously living in an alternate universe of 1.01 where operatives still double stack adrenals and can do double hidden strikes...

Ok that guy is going a bit over the top and is being obnoxious. But are you really trying to say that the operative is viable right now? Here are a few facts.

 

For concealment

-Deception bursts much harder than concealment. (concealment bursts right out of stealth but its not enough to match the 20k that the deception sin will unload within 6 seconds of exiting stealth).

-Every other dps spec in the game maintains dps better than concealment (If you would like I can point you to dps parse websites that confirm this for both pve and pvp).

-Deception and Concealment share the same role (burst from stealth).

-Deception can also maintain fighting after bursting, concealment can't

-Concealment can self heal if they escape the fighting, but usually its a healers job to do that anyways.

 

For Lethality

-Our job looks like its supposed to be that of a dot based skirmisher (see Madness and Pyrotech), but we are the worst of the skirmishers by far because we lack the range advantage of the sorc/merc/sniper skirmishers and we also lack the damage and durability of the melee based skirmishers (pyrotechs/ap pyrotechs/assassins).

-We also lack synergy with most of our tree and have little use for stealth (a major theme of our class)

-We can't burst and run like concealment (can't run as well, can't exit combat due to all the dots to restealth)

 

Basically the point is this. Were not saying operatives can't do anything, were saying that everything they do is done better by a host of other classes.

-If you want control and armor pen, get a gunnery commando

-If you want CC and slow get a jug tank

-If you want dots get a pyro or a madness sorc

-If you want AOE get an engineer sniper or a smasher

-If you want stealth based burst get a deception sin

-If you want a gimped stealth based burst that also requires a ton more maintenance get a concealment op

-If you want someone that can attempt all of the above and fail at all of them simultaneously get a lethality op.

 

Please go back to your thread about whining because of a marauder nerf. Your lack of knowledge in the effectiveness of DPS Ops is sad and it's people like you that keep bad specs down by trolling about saying they're fine when the community that plays/played them KNOWS otherwise.

[TOR-tanic]

As a 36pt shield specialist vanguard I

-never have a dcd when I need one

- have no meaningful burst to speak of

-constantly pray to the RNG for good shielding

-no unique utility

-nothing to use against I/E damage

-never have a dcd when I need one.

-second best to juggernauts at everything

-hope the other team does not have any classes with armor debuffs.

 

 

I could make another list for balance sins and healing commandos. Please stop acting like every patch is out to ruin you. Most of the scoundrels I've talked to say they haven't noticed the difference much.

You should stop trolling, but so everyone here knows, Zoom is a contrarian. Best to just ignore his posts and move on.

[Belpheghor]

Ok that guy is going a bit over the top and is being obnoxious. But are you really trying to say that the operative is viable right now? Here are a few facts.

 

For concealment

-Deception bursts much harder than concealment. (concealment bursts right out of stealth but its not enough to match the 20k that the deception sin will unload within 6 seconds of exiting stealth).

-Every other dps spec in the game maintains dps better than concealment (If you would like I can point you to dps parse websites that confirm this for both pve and pvp).

-Deception and Concealment share the same role (burst from stealth).

-Deception can also maintain fighting after bursting, concealment can't

-Concealment can self heal if they escape the fighting, but usually its a healers job to do that anyways.

 

For Lethality

-Our job looks like its supposed to be that of a dot based skirmisher (see Madness and Pyrotech), but we are the worst of the skirmishers by far because we lack the range advantage of the sorc/merc/sniper skirmishers and we also lack the damage and durability of the melee based skirmishers (pyrotechs/ap pyrotechs/assassins).

-We also lack synergy with most of our tree and have little use for stealth (a major theme of our class)

-We can't burst and run like concealment (can't run as well, can't exit combat due to all the dots to restealth)

 

Basically the point is this. Were not saying operatives can't do anything, were saying that everything they do is done better by a host of other classes.

-If you want control and armor pen, get a gunnery commando

-If you want CC and slow get a jug tank

-If you want dots get a pyro or a madness sorc

-If you want AOE get an engineer sniper or a smasher

-If you want stealth based burst get a deception sin

-If you want a gimped stealth based burst that also requires a ton more maintenance get a concealment op

-If you want someone that can attempt all of the above and fail at all of them simultaneously get a lethality op.

 

DPS Operative is more or less a support class imho. I play my DPS Op like my DPS Sorc, dot the CRAP out of everything that moves and throw heals to team mates where I can.

 

Honestly I don't see the issue, you can easily top dmg and kills with DPS Op. Sure, you won't 2 shot someone lol, but should a class that can self heal really be allowed to dominate? I agree there are some holes in the logic of the 2 dps trees, but you work with what ya got, doubt Biofail is going to pump much money or resources into reworking both dps trees. Like I said before I think going hybrid works well, you're sort of a jack of all trades in WZs. I can throw out HoTs, dump dots on enemies, etc. It's not perfect by any means, but it's not as bad as some peeps in this thread make it out to be.

[TOR-tanic]

DPS Operative is more or less a support class imho. I play my DPS Op like my DPS Sorc, dot the CRAP out of everything that moves and throw heals to team mates where I can.

 

Honestly I don't see the issue, you can easily top dmg and kills with DPS Op. Sure, you won't 2 shot someone lol, but should a class that can self heal really be allowed to dominate? I agree there are some holes in the logic of the 2 dps trees, but you work with what ya got, doubt Biofail is going to pump much money or resources into reworking both dps trees. Like I said before I think going hybrid works well, you're sort of a jack of all trades in WZs. I can throw out HoTs, dump dots on enemies, etc. It's not perfect by any means, but it's not as bad as some peeps in this thread make it out to be.

You realize most of that top dmg is nothing but fluff dmg, right? I somewhat disagree with your assessment because I have a friend who always opens up with Vital Shot, and he even ended up re-rolling Dirty Fighting. Not only that, but as a DPS this class's casts for healing are super slow. They can be easily interrupted, and this class as a whole can be shutdown just as easily.

 

It is as bad as peeps in this thread make it out to be. Both DPS trees are in need of major revamps.

[BraaxusKun]

Lethality and concealment's damage are both good when played properly, a lot of people say lethality for operative is just fluff - if you are only doing fluff damage then you're doing it wrong, I always incorporate my stabs and line up my TA to make sure i get a double or triple cull off on someone, and when focusing with a team mate they die. The problem with operative is that they are too squishy when ANY pressure is applied to them, and seriously need their survivability looked at, the instant kolto infusion from lethality is a step in the right direction towards survivability but you need to potentially use your roll a few times to get the proc, which is too much of an energy drain.

 

I believe bioware thinks that simply because operatives have off heals their survivability is fine - they previously said that using cloaking screen to re-open with hidden strike was well above their expecations from pvpers - literally everyone does this - they need to think competitively when trying to balance, off heals DO NOT work for operative dps, they are long casts, and do not give good returns for the amount of energy they use, because if you manage to get a kolto injection off you get around 4 - 8k hp, but use 1/4 of your energy in the process, and then someone can take that healed health away from you in like 1 GCD lol, operative needs something like AOE reduction (marauders have it because they are a melee class and are in the middle of fights) - well guess what operatives are also melee and could use a bit more survivability instead of a crappy roll which takes you no distance when slowed and uses a ton of resources.

 

Lethality is good if you play it well and have a good team to back you up and you manage to be slippery when around enemies, but in 4v4 ranked it doesn't work as they can easily switch to you. In regs I would usually pull numbers like this and out damage lethality snipers:

 

http://i.imgur.com/QEUGjEA.jpg?1

http://imgur.com/64hID7R

 

But I would never use my operative dps in ranked - because i can get globaled (unlke my sniper)

Edited December 9, 2013 by BraaxusKun

[ripamorame]

What i find funny is assassins can do what we were nerfed for doing so i.e dropping someone in a opener but with less of a handicap for popping everything.

Also anyone can pad damage as lethality.

Edited December 9, 2013 by ripamorame

[RollaYoda]

Snip.... But I would never use my operative dps in ranked - because i can get globaled (unlke my sniper)

 

In all of that, there's the gem that should be underlined and brought to attention. You can bring and take an operative healer anywhere, a marauder anywhere, a jugg tank anywhere, a PT hybrid OR DPS anywhere, deception sin anywhere, sniper... madness sorc...

 

Why is it that people can't play what the want the second they get into anything halfway competitive? You shouldn't have to play at the top of your game in order to "do well" with such-and-such spec, then can take a sniper or marauder and do SO MUCH better just because you switched classes. It needs a damage buff, shouldn't have to go "oh F M L" the second you realize backstab/hidden strike didn't crit, and obviously needs some defensive cd's added.

 

An addition of a proc similar to recklessness would go a LONG way in helping out Operative DPS, especially Concealment.

Edited December 9, 2013 by RollaYoda

[JouerTue]

i have one, i see the problems you enlight, op, if you go in and out from the battle you cna survive, but certainly it's not a satisfying dps class, compared to burst specs of sent/mara and sin/shadows or pure ranged you have to work a lot to be a little useful : prevent a cap here and there, roll to the ball-pass-die, finish some wounded enemy.

 

how to balance it? idk..if every class would have powerful dcd or control abilities we'd have a unique class..

[BraaxusKun]

In all of that, there's the gem that should be underlined and brought to attention. You can bring and take an operative healer anywhere, a marauder anywhere, a jugg tank anywhere, a PT hybrid OR DPS anywhere, deception sin anywhere, sniper... madness sorc...

 

Why is it that people can't play what the want the second they get into anything halfway competitive? You shouldn't have to play at the top of your game in order to "do well" with such-and-such spec, then can take a sniper or marauder and do SO MUCH better just because you switched classes. It needs a damage buff, shouldn't have to go "oh F M L" the second you realize backstab/hidden strike didn't crit, and obviously needs some defensive cd's added.

 

An addition of a proc similar to recklessness would go a LONG way in helping out Operative DPS, especially Concealment.

 

Honestly operative doesn't need a dps boost, it's survivability that is the problem, my sniper has cover, entrench, aoe 20% dmg reduction, and a roll which leaves a slow and is free of energy cost

[wishihadaname]

I agree that lethality can put up some nice scoreboard numbers, in fact I do better by the scoreboard on my lethality op than on my gunnery commando. However I do far more good for the team on my gunnery commando. If you are getting craptons of dot damage as lethality, its because nobody is dieing. I got 1 mil last night in a fight where the enemy team had 4 healers. We won because we capped our side node a tiny bit earlier than they did but it was the most boring and tedious fight i've had in a very long time. The principle is similar in more mobile fights. You can help kill a target, but then again every dps can help kill a target.

 

We bring nothing unique to the table. Every dps class has dps, and I would even argue that theoretically concealment has enough dps if the enemy target stands perfectly still with its back to the op. The real problem is that its not just the theoretical dps, its how easy it is to apply, how easy it is avoid, how reliable it is, and how much support the class needs.

 

Here is an example of a good melee class. The smashtard.

-Their damage is very easy to apply, leap crush smash.

-Their damage is nearly impossible to avoid

-Their damage is completely reliable, predictable, and high.

-The class needs moderate support, they have enough DCD's to fend for themselves and enough mobility to ensure the enemy doesn't get away.

 

Here is what lethality has

-The damage is hard to apply, we need 2 dots + WB + TA + melee range without gap closer or stealth if already in combat.

-The damage is easy to avoid. Any purge, dcd or speed boost will seriously mitigate us

-The damage is unreliable. Depending on crits cull will hit from 3-8k or may be resisted altogether due to how easy it is to avoid.

-The class needs absurd amounts of support once noticed. If you actually want to stay alive, you need a healer on you and a tank taunting because once slowed you have no defenses and no mobility. You also cannot hold you ground if you ever do gain it and if you restealth you can't be healed up for a while.

 

Do you see my point as to why it is really bad?

I can go and wreck any bad I come across, any undergeared smashtard who isn't paying attention. Hell last night I took out a healer/tank combo solo then capped a door on my own. This doesn't mean the class is good, it just means I played my weak class far better than they played their strong class. However, if I come across the competent team, no amount of skill on my part or support from my team mates is going to compensate for the fact that I am playing the weakest dps class in the game.

[Technohic]

Honestly operative doesn't need a dps boost, it's survivability that is the problem, my sniper has cover, entrench, aoe 20% dmg reduction, and a roll which leaves a slow and is free of energy cost

 

Defense and a little better energy management. It doesn't have the burst of an assassin IMO, and if its going to rely on DOTs (even concealment with flechette round, and I know Im mixing terminology) it just can't be as squishy as it is and needs to be able to keep up the pressure.

[AdmiralParmesan]

I was under the impression ops dps had been in the coffin since 1.2

 

This is new to me

[Technohic]

I was under the impression ops dps had been in the coffin since 1.2

 

This is new to me

 

You can make a living in 8v8 warzones against bads with any spec. It's when you get competitive or really experience the other classes that the issues start to show more. Smaller 4 v 4 battles sure put a light on it as well.

[wishihadaname]

I was under the impression ops dps had been in the coffin since 1.2

 

This is new to me

 

Its gotten worse since 2.0. At 2.0 everyone was buffed but we were buffed the least. Since then, literally every other class in the game has been buffed further and we've had our one unique utility nerfed.

[Yamahara]

Yeah that's cute and all, but no one asked about regstar nonsense rofl. Do a few arenas, get killed through guard by taunted DPS while getting spam healed, then come talk about the class like it's fine.

 

When it comes to arenas Operative DPS overall is screwed for now..