Hardmode queue time!

[Mazikeen]

The gear system in general needs a big overhaul with more optimized mods.

 

I read somewhere (though I can't say if it's true or not) that a Dev actually said Accuracy/Alacrity was added to tanking gear specifically to push them to play more so they would buy more gear to min/max. While it may be a false comment, it would make sense because it's a band-aid approach to try to 'fix' the tanking issue you're all complaining about.

 

As an aside, something that MAY help get tanks to queue again is helping people realize that you can buy gear on your tank with comms from FPs/Ops, load them into Legacy gear, mail them to your DPS and use them that way. It's a fast way to gear alts and I actually had my Merc in full 78/72 gear 15 minutes after hitting 55, weapons included (the Bounty Weekly pistols are BoL and Main/Offhand).

Edited December 2, 2013 by Mazikeen

[JLazarillo]

I would call this neither a technical nor a community problem, really. People can't really be faulted for using all the different tools available to them. Rather, what we have is an underlying system problem. That being: the teamed game is balanced around a 2:1:1 ratio of damage:healing:tank, but if you assume a balanced and even spread of combat options being used (which, assuming balance ensures all are equally viable, as should be the goal, even if it's a teensy bit pie-in-the-sky), the actual spread of player characters is 6:1:1. Simply put, the game is balanced, at its core, to make tanks and healers scarce.

 

It seems to me that there is a technical fix that could be implemented to deal with that problem, though it would require a good deal of work. Probably not an insurmountable amount, and since funneling players into endgame group content seems, at least, in part, to be the goal anyway, it would likely have a positive overall effect on the game. It'll never happen because it can't be monetized, but it can be done, in just a few easy steps:

 

Step 1: Raise the difficulty of the Hardmodes across the bar. Increase numbers and/or difficulty for filler mobs and adds, HP amounts for bosses, pull out some tricky enrage timers.

 

Step 2: Ensure that Step 1 has been balanced around having six damage dealers on a team, rather than only two.

 

Step 3: Have the Group Finder treat all Hardmode Flashpoints as 8-man Operations rather than 4-man teams, matching the new 6:1:1 ideal team ratio.

 

Step 4: PROFIT! (no ???? necessary, I just explained it all already!)

[ImpactHound]

I would call this neither a technical nor a community problem, really. People can't really be faulted for using all the different tools available to them. Rather, what we have is an underlying system problem. That being: the teamed game is balanced around a 2:1:1 ratio of damage:healing:tank, but if you assume a balanced and even spread of combat options being used (which, assuming balance ensures all are equally viable, as should be the goal, even if it's a teensy bit pie-in-the-sky), the actual spread of player characters is 6:1:1. Simply put, the game is balanced, at its core, to make tanks and healers scarce.

 

It seems to me that there is a technical fix that could be implemented to deal with that problem, though it would require a good deal of work. Probably not an insurmountable amount, and since funneling players into endgame group content seems, at least, in part, to be the goal anyway, it would likely have a positive overall effect on the game. It'll never happen because it can't be monetized, but it can be done, in just a few easy steps:

 

Step 1: Raise the difficulty of the Hardmodes across the bar. Increase numbers and/or difficulty for filler mobs and adds, HP amounts for bosses, pull out some tricky enrage timers.

 

Step 2: Ensure that Step 1 has been balanced around having six damage dealers on a team, rather than only two.

 

Step 3: Have the Group Finder treat all Hardmode Flashpoints as 8-man Operations rather than 4-man teams, matching the new 6:1:1 ideal team ratio.

 

Step 4: PROFIT! (no ???? necessary, I just explained it all already!)

 

Step 3 kills the exp, but otherwise not a horrible plan. Logistically, 8 man teams aren't unreasonable, this was a normal party size in City of Heroes, but it also had a more flexible pool of powers for players to support each other and approach content.

[Lord_of_Mu]

I read somewhere (though I can't say if it's true or not) that a Dev actually said Accuracy/Alacrity was added to tanking gear specifically to push them to play more so they would buy more gear to min/max. While it may be a false comment, it would make sense because it's a band-aid approach to try to 'fix' the tanking issue you're all complaining about.

 

As an aside, something that MAY help get tanks to queue again is helping people realize that you can buy gear on your tank with comms from FPs/Ops, load them into Legacy gear, mail them to your DPS and use them that way. It's a fast way to gear alts and I actually had my Merc in full 78/72 gear 15 minutes after hitting 55, weapons included (the Bounty Weekly pistols are BoL and Main/Offhand).

 

It wouldn't really surprise me that Bioware would heap such crappy enhancements onto everyone. The problem is, after you collect all of the armoring and mods you need, you're forced to buy the correct enhancements because everything is endurance heavy. Even as a tank, having a high health pool isn't as good as having better avoidance and mitigation.

 

As for getting me to queue more as a tank. Extra gear for alts is great but I'd also like the armor shells too. If Bioware could make it so I can legacy reverse engineer the armor shells to learn how to make Verpine armor shells. I'd be running flashpoints more than once per day.

[midianlord]

How exactly does an MMO company address bad DPS, playing badly, such that tanks drop from group?

 

How exactly does and MMO company address bad DPS being on a tanks /ignore list OR tanks not wanting to random PUG with bad DPS?

 

When did an MMO company become a social welfare state for DPS?

 

This is often true, but...How do you explain tanks dropping the group before everyone's even loaded-in the instance?

 

I see this more and more nowadays, it's really annoying :/

[tomhjen]

As i do tank my self in pug's quite often i don't recognize my self in that all pug's are bad. Maybe 1/6 HM's are bad, very bad once maybe 1/8. I can live with that just fine, i accept the fact that everyone need a chance to learn how to play and learn tactics. Non of you are perfect and all of you have made mistakes in this game, and i am going to say it again. If everyone acted like the DPS haters and "roll a tank" trolls in here, there would be no HM's going at all. The community would collapse even more then it already has. And if we switch the roles a bit and say, if everyone had a bit more understanding and acceptance that people need to learn, this community of players would be better off.

 

And sitting down saying that nothing can be done to fix a very serious problem like this is the same as giving up, and if you don't have anything to add instead of just posting troll posts, stop posting cause it is not helping and all it really does is make things worse.

[Mazikeen]

I would call this neither a technical nor a community problem, really. People can't really be faulted for using all the different tools available to them. Rather, what we have is an underlying system problem. That being: the teamed game is balanced around a 2:1:1 ratio of damage:healing:tank, but if you assume a balanced and even spread of combat options being used (which, assuming balance ensures all are equally viable, as should be the goal, even if it's a teensy bit pie-in-the-sky), the actual spread of player characters is 6:1:1. Simply put, the game is balanced, at its core, to make tanks and healers scarce.

 

It seems to me that there is a technical fix that could be implemented to deal with that problem, though it would require a good deal of work. Probably not an insurmountable amount, and since funneling players into endgame group content seems, at least, in part, to be the goal anyway, it would likely have a positive overall effect on the game. It'll never happen because it can't be monetized, but it can be done, in just a few easy steps:

 

Step 1: Raise the difficulty of the Hardmodes across the bar. Increase numbers and/or difficulty for filler mobs and adds, HP amounts for bosses, pull out some tricky enrage timers.

 

Step 2: Ensure that Step 1 has been balanced around having six damage dealers on a team, rather than only two.

 

Step 3: Have the Group Finder treat all Hardmode Flashpoints as 8-man Operations rather than 4-man teams, matching the new 6:1:1 ideal team ratio.

 

Step 4: PROFIT! (no ???? necessary, I just explained it all already!)

 

I won't pretend to speak for any other tanks but I WILL say that, for myself, harder FPs will entertain me but not nearly enough to queue in randoms. It IS a social issue, it IS because tanks are treated like crap and it WILL continue. It's great this problem has people trying to figure out ways to fix it but don't you think the people paid to think about these things have already considered these options?

 

As far as Ops vs FPs and affecting the ration, you can respec all but 2 classes (Sniper and Marauder) per side as DPS. If my raid has too many tanks then yep, I can respec to DPS. If they have too many healers (and I'm on a healing toon) yep, I can respec to DPS. Respecing was done, in part, to help this balance issue.

 

If you stop treating tanks like they OWE you something, let them do their job instead of trying to do it for them, stop rushing them or questioning their methods (if said methods work) then you'll see an increase in the numbers that queue for randoms.

 

The tanks exist, they just don't like you. Suck it up, Buttercup, because that's the way it is.

[Mazikeen]

This is often true, but...How do you explain tanks dropping the group before everyone's even loaded-in the instance?

 

I see this more and more nowadays, it's really annoying :/

 

Maybe that particular FP annoys the crap out of them.

Maybe they recognized a name of someone they know to be a tool.

maybe they got called to a raid/RL.

Maybe they're trolling DPS.

[Rthen]

You misunderstand me, I know there always has been an insane wait for DPS, but in other games WoW included the DPS didn't rise to the rude and inept levels we see here. I have about had it with this game. Not because of the mechanics or Cartel Market or game engine chosen, but because of the community.

 

DPS here blow plain and simple and we as a community don't bother to try to hold them up to a higher standard. 9 out of 10 times I'm dealing with a DPS who keeps pulling and I ask them not to I get "LOLZ Lernz 2 play, Tank!" from the other DPS. If I call some one out on ninja looting the other DPS tells me "You such a whiner, just pull"

 

It is a real epidemic and it's sad that we let it get this way by apathy and not policing our own. People just don't give a **** and it's sad I want to keep playing. I love this game when I have a group that works well together, But I can't keep taking this abuse as a tank. I'll move on and sadly that is what we a re seeing here. people are just moving on.

 

I dunno. I disagree with both of these posts to the point where I needed to actually reply.

 

As DPS I have grouped only for PvE 4 mans both hard mode and other. I have seen terrible Tanks, DPS, and Heals. DPS does not have a lock on being horrible every time in these PUGS, its a even split between all 3. It might make you feel better to think its just DPS but its not. The tone in both of the above e-mails points to a larger issue that old-timers like myself have seen for the last 15 years.

 

This is that more people will play DPS for a bunch of reasons which means people who play healers or tanks will be fewer, in more demand, and thus develop an attitude. Most guild leaders back in "the day" (EQ1, EQ2, WOW) were Tanks or Healers. It did not matter if they were mature, knew the material, or great leaders. They learned the material eventually and people followed them because of that and because they played the most critically important classes.

 

This is a simple game, hell its fun but I suspect what I am seeing in 4 man groups, and what I am reading about raids, points to a play experience that will make all my years of raiding in other games seem very difficult, more so then it was. Of course I need to get there first and the lack of gearing options could prove a barrier I cannot get beyond.

 

The flaw is that to progress I need to do hard mode content and collect thousands of comms but cannot due to the queue. Only being able to do a few per day means months and months of work to get even to a somewhat minimally acceptable gearing point. WoW's progression for people getting back in was far less problematic. By the time I minimally equip 1 character, at this point, it will be sometime in June 2014 and I have a feeling I will be too far behind to join any of the in-game contacts I have made. Compare this to WoW, took me 2 months to level and gear up to a point where I could sustain raid attendance for the next 4 until guild I was raiding with imploded.

 

SWTOR's gear progression and itemization does not permit this sort of progression and will mean a rotation of players in and out of subscription status.

 

Not good for the game.

[Lord_of_Mu]

This is often true, but...How do you explain tanks dropping the group before everyone's even loaded-in the instance?

 

I see this more and more nowadays, it's really annoying :/

 

A whole load of bad experiences or an overall bad flashpoint design. Some people aren't willing to roll the dice and see how the group will turn out. They look at hp levels and say, screw this I'm out of here!

 

Mind you, I always keep my hp levels low on just about all of my characters, including my tanks. I'll take more useful secondary stats like defense, shield, absorb on my tank over endurance any day.

 

I would call this neither a technical nor a community problem, really. People can't really be faulted for using all the different tools available to them. Rather, what we have is an underlying system problem. That being: the teamed game is balanced around a 2:1:1 ratio of damage:healing:tank, but if you assume a balanced and even spread of combat options being used (which, assuming balance ensures all are equally viable, as should be the goal, even if it's a teensy bit pie-in-the-sky), the actual spread of player characters is 6:1:1. Simply put, the game is balanced, at its core, to make tanks and healers scarce.

 

It seems to me that there is a technical fix that could be implemented to deal with that problem, though it would require a good deal of work. Probably not an insurmountable amount, and since funneling players into endgame group content seems, at least, in part, to be the goal anyway, it would likely have a positive overall effect on the game. It'll never happen because it can't be monetized, but it can be done, in just a few easy steps:

 

Step 1: Raise the difficulty of the Hardmodes across the bar. Increase numbers and/or difficulty for filler mobs and adds, HP amounts for bosses, pull out some tricky enrage timers.

 

Step 2: Ensure that Step 1 has been balanced around having six damage dealers on a team, rather than only two.

 

Step 3: Have the Group Finder treat all Hardmode Flashpoints as 8-man Operations rather than 4-man teams, matching the new 6:1:1 ideal team ratio.

 

Step 4: PROFIT! (no ???? necessary, I just explained it all already!)

 

A great idea but it puts a lot of strain on the healer. Lets be honest, some pug groups have dps that stand in everything! You want to triple the number of people standing in stupid crap and increase the overall incoming damage load or movement requirements on the tank. It might be an acceptable challenge for some healers but others will outright switch to dps because it's easier.

 

You'd either have to change to 5 dps, 2 healers and 1 tank or modify the number to allow for companions to act as .5 of a healer, but then you're stuck with a 9 man group.

 

Or you could just give companions a small talent tree, create companion role specific flashpoint drops / items to purchase with comms and allow players to use their companions as tanks.

[tomhjen]

This is often true, but...How do you explain tanks dropping the group before everyone's even loaded-in the instance?

 

I see this more and more nowadays, it's really annoying :/

 

Yeah same, just happened to me now after being in queue on my poor commando for more then 45min, guess it is a new 45min+ wait for a new group for me.

[midianlord]

LOL well I was doing my very best impression of the meta theme of -----> Bioware as social welfare state for DPS. How did I do?

 

Errrm...needs work, TBQFH.

 

But then, that's a good thing in a way: It says that there are more of us old-school damagers out there than most people think.

 

(Clue: If one of the DPS'ers is the one asking in /party if everyone knows the fights, and explains them for those that don't, then you can be pretty sure you'll have smooth sailing, IME.)

[Galtin]

I've been playing MMOs since EQ1 and I learned a long time ago if you want to run dungeons/flashpoints without long queue times, play a tank or a healer. I prefer playing rogue-like characters in MMOs but when I played WoW and it took forever to get into LFG dungeon groups, I switched to a tank.

 

In SWTOR I have a tank on both the Republic and Empire sides. The beauty of SWTOR is that my JK guardian and BH powertech are not locked into tanking and can switch to a DPS at the click of a button. If someone rolls a pure DPS advance class that can not tank or heal, that was a choice you made so you only have yourself to blame for long queue times.

 

On a semi-related note, the solution to faction imbalances on the servers is easily solved using the same principle as playing a tank or healer if you want short FP queues. When I play my Republic character, warzone queue times are relatively short. When I play my Empire character, I often have to wait several minutes before my warzone queue pops. If the SWTOR community or Bioware ever wanted the two factions to be relatively equal in size on each server, the simple solution is to end same faction warzones. As it stands right now, almost all of my warzones on my Empire character are Empire vs Empire. If warzones were limited to Republic vs Empire, the PVP community would self-correct the faction imbalance and a lot of them would reroll to the Republic side to enjoy the shorter warzone queue times.

[JLazarillo]

As far as Ops vs FPs and affecting the ration, you can respec all but 2 classes (Sniper and Marauder) per side as DPS. If my raid has too many tanks then yep, I can respec to DPS. If they have too many healers (and I'm on a healing toon) yep, I can respec to DPS. Respecing was done, in part, to help this balance issue.

 

I do this myself sometimes, but there are three notable flaws with just expecting this:

1st, it only really works for heal/damage classes. For tank/damage classes it can work but requires the character in question to have double the gear, since what's needed to do well in those roles is much more drastically different.

 

2nd, it makes the assumption that everyone is willing to shell out for field respecs, and is a subscriber that gets them for free. Neither is probably the safest one to make.

 

3rd, it infringes on the overall fun-factor, which should be the most important part (I know that there are those who disagree, but hear me out). I often do the respec-trick on my Scoundrel, healing or DPSing as needed by the group I'm in (and I'll give you three guesses which one is always the "needed" role). However, I would simply put, much rather play Dirty Fighting than Sawbones. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that players should be able to play the way that's most fun for them without being "taxed" by longer queue times just for that.

[JLazarillo]

A great idea but it puts a lot of strain on the healer. Lets be honest, some pug groups have dps that stand in everything! You want to triple the number of people standing in stupid crap and increase the overall incoming damage load or movement requirements on the tank. It might be an acceptable challenge for some healers but others will outright switch to dps because it's easier.

 

This is true. I'd like to think that in this imaginary re-balanced world, this would be factored into things, and/or that battles might be a little more forgiving, so that having a single screwball on the team couldn't ruin a fight quite as badly as one can now.

[lordspyder]

I dunno. I disagree with both of these posts to the point where I needed to actually reply.

 

As DPS I have grouped only for PvE 4 mans both hard mode and other. I have seen terrible Tanks, DPS, and Heals. DPS does not have a lock on being horrible every time in these PUGS, its a even split between all 3. It might make you feel better to think its just DPS but its not. The tone in both of the above e-mails points to a larger issue that old-timers like myself have seen for the last 15 years.

Look I'm not saying all tanks and healers are great and all DPS Suck. I'm a tank so I don't know what other Tanks are like. I know I can't be too fail cause even with a bad group I can finish a flashpoint. As for healers, I tend not to run into too many that are that bad. It may have to do with personality traits that lead some one to choose these roles. But when a group goes down in flames or I start getting verbally abused, 9 times out of 10 it is a DPS that is the culprit.

[SlimsPicken]

The ratio of dps is about 4 or 5 to 1 per tank or healer.

 

The ratio of bad dps is about 4/5 -1 per tank or healer who is bad.

 

The ratio of bads doesnt change, but there are 4-5 times as many dps bads out there as the heal/tanks.

 

Plus tanks have by far the longest gear path. The starter sets and drops are unwearable due to throwaway stats like alacrity which are actually a downgrade from rating 66 mods... its unrewarded and not very fun in PUG situations.

 

I dont blame tanks for not queueing. Theres no juice in that squeeze.

[Hassat-Hunter]

Yup, there's no one reason for this. Personally, most my (speaking as DPS, my tank is a undergeared 52, so I wont take him into battles just yet) FPs go fine once a group hits, very rarily do we break up, or everyone leaves after one wipe.

 

However, I do know;

* Tank gear is indeed HORRIBLY itemnised. They should definitely fix that, cause with 78 you can't even replace it from the GTN, like 72 could/can. It's just not fear for tanks to work that hard and get such crappy stuff.

* I doubt the elite comm limit is what makes tanks stop playing after doing the 3 fights. It's probably repetition. You've already done it on other chars, you're doing it again here. Those 3 are pretty much enough. It mostly is about ultimate anyway. The new fps helped, but they've been done to death too. Probably a rehash of old maps for 55 wasn't very much a good idea either, working to add to said repetition.

* The change of type (damage, healer or damage, tank) can be pretty strainful. The gear, manually adjusting all skills again, for preferred players the cost of resetting skills. If there was a system (much suggested) that would just save 2 layout (the tank, the dps), and gear gets swapped from the cargo hold, instead of having to haul it around (although you still need to gather 2 sets, which is also why tanks shouldn't do additional double work for one good set) that could go a long way to making it more viable.

* The GF should obviously be updated that you need primarily tanking skills to go tank role to prevent dps trying to skip lines or outright trolling.

 

So yeah, there's a LOT BW *can* do, even if they can't infact change the inner nature of players, and cure annoying and/or rude DPS.

[naldoran]

Just for the heck of it, I queued up today for some pug flashpoints.

 

1. The rather thoroughly over-geared DPS pulled about 3/4 of the trash, which made them a pain to pick them up, but they died so quickly it almost didn't matter; still made my life difficult though. Boss fights went smoothly however, and the FP was completed quickly.

 

2. Died twice to trash pulls on Hammer Station due to CCs broken by the DPS & weak healing, followed by dying twice more to the mining droid boss because I was (In Dreadforged + ~2.5 pieces Underworld) "too squishy and hard to heal". Ended up quitting the group after a vote-kick was initiated against me.

 

No applicable rewards, abusive or inconsiderate behaviour from my group... why should I put up with this? I'll tank progression content until the repair funds out, but see no reason whatsoever to participate in flashpoints and help strangers get their elite comms when this is the experience I can expect at their hands.

[Caelrie]

How exactly does an MMO company address bad DPS, playing badly, such that tanks drop from group?

 

How exactly does and MMO company address bad DPS being on a tanks /ignore list OR tanks not wanting to random PUG with bad DPS?

You reward tanks and healers for completing an instance far more than you reward DPS. WoW did it, and it resulted in far more tanks and healers queuing.

[JPryde]

You reward tanks and healers for completing an instance far more than you reward DPS. WoW did it, and it resulted in far more tanks and healers queuing.

It also resulted in a lot of DDs who COULD skill as a tank or healer to queue as tank or healer in order to shorten their queue times. To be qualified as a healer or tank for the queue you only need to be technically allowed to dress and skill as that specialist. You do not need to own a single piece of equipment for the job, you do not need to be skilled for the job (in game skill, not player skill) and you do not even need to have the right stance active.

 

How that could be seen as an improvement is beyond me.

[DarthTHC]

Maybe that particular FP annoys the crap out of them.

Maybe they recognized a name of someone they know to be a tool.

maybe they got called to a raid/RL.

Maybe they're trolling DPS.

 

Payback's a bear.

[gorstram]

Payback's a bear.

 

I have a theory that those tanks that immediately leave queue once it pops are those who have mistakenly hit the tank radio button. They really wanted to queue DPS, but the default setting for tank/DPS hybrids selects both. So instead of popping in and drinking in full the vitriol that would come of a mistaken queuing, they just leave right away. They also aren't given the 15 minute GF penalty for leaving an FP early.

 

I don't think they're trolling at all.

[Andryah]

You reward tanks and healers for completing an instance far more than you reward DPS. WoW did it, and it resulted in far more tanks and healers queuing.

 

Which in no way addresses either of the questions I asked (that you quoted).

 

It also resulted in a lot of DDs who COULD skill as a tank or healer to queue as tank or healer in order to shorten their queue times. To be qualified as a healer or tank for the queue you only need to be technically allowed to dress and skill as that specialist. You do not need to own a single piece of equipment for the job, you do not need to be skilled for the job (in game skill, not player skill) and you do not even need to have the right stance active.

 

How that could be seen as an improvement is beyond me.

 

Exactly. The DPS can and will exploit any mechanics checks the devs might put in place. Sad, but true, in today's MMO player base.

[Andryah]

They also aren't given the 15 minute GF penalty for leaving an FP early.

 

On this particular point... I do feel that anyone that leaves a group that they entered via game queues (of any kind) should indeed receive a 15 minute debuff penalty if they drop from the group. And no.. I don't care what the reasons might be... you used GF and if you drop the group there should be consequences for your decision. Live with the consequences of your decisions and choice IMO.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Andryah